But President Trump's hatchet man is facing increasing scrutiny himself as Elon Musk hacks away at the federal workforce with what appears to be no oversight.

但是，隨著埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）在似乎沒有任何監督的情況下大肆破壞聯邦工作人員隊伍，特朗普總統的 "打手 "自己也面臨著越來越多的審查。

Democrats are demanding accountability.

民主黨人要求問責。

Behind the scenes, Trump aides have had to remind Musk that he is in fact an employee, not the boss, and reports to the White House.

在幕後，特朗普的助手們不得不提醒馬斯克，他實際上是一名僱員，而不是老闆，並向白宮彙報工作。

But that hasn't slowed down the downsizing.

但這並沒有減緩縮編的速度。

The CIA is the latest agency offering buyouts to employees.

中央情報局是最近一個向員工提供買斷的機構。

And at the U.S.

而在美國

Agency for International Development, a key target of Trump's recent cutbacks, almost all staffers are being placed on administrative leave.

國際發展署是特朗普最近裁員的主要目標，幾乎所有工作人員都被安排休行政假。

Joining us now, senior political correspondent for The Hill, Amy Parnes, along with two MSNBC political analysts, Republican strategist Susan DelPercio and Democratic strategist Basil Smykle.

現在加入我們的是《國會山報》的資深政治記者艾米-帕內斯，以及兩位MSNBC政治分析師，共和黨戰略家蘇珊-德爾佩爾西奧和民主黨戰略家巴西爾-斯邁克爾。

Good to see all of you.

很高興見到大家。

So much to discuss.

要討論的太多了。

Where do you begin, really?

到底該從何說起呢？

Amy, as we're learning, our NBC team is reporting that 20,000 plus government employees have already indicated they're going to accept the buyout.

艾米，據我們瞭解，NBC團隊報道 已經有兩萬多名政府僱員表示 他們將接受買斷。

What are you hearing from people inside Washington about how they're looking at this right now?

你從華盛頓內部人士那裡聽到了什麼，他們現在是如何看待這件事的？

It's chaotic.

太混亂了。

I mean, I'm hearing from people inside these institutions.

我是說，我從這些機構內部的人那裡聽說的。

There's chaos.

一片混亂。

No one knows what's happening, if they'll have a job, if they're going to be pushed out.

沒有人知道會發生什麼，他們是否會有工作，是否會被趕走。

There's nervousness among Democrats.

民主黨人很緊張。

There's more nervousness even among Republicans.

即使是共和黨人也更加緊張。

They know that Trump came in to clear the swamp again, but they didn't know just how far he would go.

他們知道特朗普上臺是為了再次清除沼澤，但他們不知道他會走多遠。

And I'm hearing that Republicans are getting a little bit nervous about how this is playing out, how Elon Musk is sort of dictating the terms.

我聽說共和黨人開始有點緊張了，他們擔心埃隆-馬斯克是如何支配這些條款的。

And this is problematic, I think.

我認為這是有問題的。

And that's why you're seeing a lot of pushback.

這就是為什麼你會看到很多反彈。

You're starting to see a little more pushback from the White House and from Susie Wiles and other people, you know, basically saying he is not the boss.

你開始看到白宮和蘇西-懷爾斯（Susie Wiles）等人的反擊，你知道，基本上是說他不是老闆。

He's here to help.

他是來幫忙的。

He's here to help clear the swamp, but he's not in charge of it.

他是來幫助清理沼澤的，但他並不負責。

You said the CIA cutbacks in particular, the buyouts for all these CIA agents is particularly alarming.

你說中情局的裁員，特別是買斷中情局所有特工的做法尤其令人震驚。

It is alarming because it came right on the same day as this announcement the president made about Gaza.

令人震驚的是，就在總統宣佈有關加沙的消息的同一天。

And so I'm hearing from people inside that institution, and they're saying, what is happening?

是以，我聽到該機構內部的人說，到底發生了什麼？

You can't put a price tag on institutional knowledge.

機構知識是無法用價格來衡量的。

And the fact that all this chaos is brewing inside that institution is really problematic right at this moment.

而事實上，該機構內部正在醞釀的這一切混亂，此時此刻確實很成問題。

Susan, Republicans fashion themselves as the party of national security, back in the blue, for example.

蘇珊，共和黨人以國家安全黨自居，比如在藍色年代。

But they do seem to be looking the other way to a degree when it comes to what we're seeing at the CIA or within the FBI, the purge there.

但在某種程度上，當我們看到中情局或聯邦調查局內部的清洗行動時，他們似乎在睜一隻眼閉一隻眼。

And of course, can't forget the blanket pardons of all the January 6th convicted people.

當然，也不能忘記對所有 1 月 6 日被定罪者的全面赦免。

So are you surprised that this is how the GOP is reacting?

所以，你對美國共和黨的反應感到驚訝嗎？

No, because I think they're trying to follow it as much as anyone else, and they don't know which way to step is the bigger concern for them.

不，因為我認為他們和其他人一樣都在努力追隨它，他們不知道該走哪條路才是他們更關心的問題。

So the buyout, that's different than the purges and the administrative leaves.

是以，買斷與清洗和行政休假不同。

The buyout is simply to federal employees.

買斷只是針對聯邦僱員。

You can get paid through September.

您可以在 9 月份之前拿到工資。

If you announce your intentions by this week.

如果您在本週之前宣佈您的意向。

Now, of course, if I was an employee, I would very much wonder, how are you going to pay me through September?

當然，如果我是一名僱員，我會非常納悶，你打算如何支付我到九月份的工資？

I wouldn't take the buyout because I don't think Trump can deliver on it.

我不會接受買斷，因為我不認為特朗普能做到這一點。

I don't think they will get paid.

我不認為他們會得到報酬。

That being aside, putting the purge and the CIA issues or employees at issue, bigger concern is what's not getting done.

撇開清洗和中情局問題或僱員問題不談，更令人擔憂的是什麼事情沒有完成。

To me, it's not just the institutional knowledge, which is critical, but that means you don't have agents on the ground.

對我來說，這不僅僅是機構知識的問題，機構知識至關重要，但這意味著你在當地沒有代理人。

You know how long it takes to be a well-trained CIA agent?

你知道成為一名訓練有素的中情局特工需要多長時間嗎？

I don't know, but I can imagine it takes a lot of experience. You just don't put them through the academy for three months.

我不知道，但我可以想象這需要很多經驗。 你不可能讓他們在學校待上三個月。

Same with the FBI.

聯邦調查局也一樣。

So what violent crimes aren't being tracked by the FBI?

那麼聯邦調查局沒有追蹤到哪些暴力犯罪呢？

What work is not getting done?

哪些工作沒有完成？

That is the public safety risk that I see with a lot of that, on top of the uncertainty of a workforce that doesn't know if they're coming or going.

這就是我所看到的大量公共安全風險，以及不知道他們是來還是去的勞動力的不確定性。

And frankly, I don't think the administration knows if they're coming or going, because they have to reverse themselves left and right.

坦率地說，我不認為政府知道他們是來還是去，因為他們必須左右顛倒。

And that's when you take a look at somebody like Marco Rubio, who's now the Secretary of State.

這時候你再看看馬可-盧比奧這樣的人，他現在是國務卿。

He was confirmed unanimously to that position.

他被一致確認擔任這一職務。

He's now overseeing the dismantling of USAID.

他現在正在監督美國國際開發署的解散工作。

And that's become the face, it seems, of the government purges that Democrats are saying are unconstitutional, by the way.

順便說一句，這似乎成了民主黨人認為違憲的政府大清洗的幌子。

Did Democrats get played?

民主黨人被耍了嗎？

No, I don't think Democrats got played.

不，我不認為民主黨人被耍了。

In fact, we talked about this.

事實上，我們曾經談過這個問題。

If you remember, throughout last year, there was a lot of conversation on the left about being mindful of the impact of Project 2025.

如果你還記得，去年全年，左翼都在談論要注意 "2025 項目 "的影響。

Because it's not a 10-year plan.

因為這不是一個十年計劃。

It's not a one-term plan.

這不是一個一勞永逸的計劃。

It is a 180-day plan.

該計劃為期 180 天。

Guess what?

你猜怎麼著？

It started.

開始了。

And what you're seeing is the impact of not just disruptive politics, but destructive governance.

你們看到的不僅僅是破壞性政治的影響，還有破壞性治理的影響。

That's what I think a lot of Republicans, particularly in the Senate, don't want to have to deal with, because they can't answer questions from their constituents about what's happening tomorrow.

我認為很多共和黨人，尤其是參議院的共和黨人，都不想面對這種情況，因為他們無法回答選民關於明天會發生什麼的問題。

And you have someone like an Elon Musk, who is perhaps appointed, whatever that term means to Donald Trump, to be able to go in and do this.

而像埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）這樣的人，不管對唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）來說這個詞意味著什麼，他也許是被任命的，能夠進去做這件事。

In another country, this would be called a coup.

在其他國家，這將被稱為政變。

He is unaccountable.

他不負責任。

And he's going through with a team of people who are also not accountable into people's emails, into payment systems, without care and concern, seemingly, for the impact, the short- and long-term impact of this.

他還帶著一隊同樣不負責任的人，進入了人們的電子郵件和支付系統，似乎根本不關心也不在意這樣做的短期和長期影響。

But doing so, probably for his benefit.

但這樣做，可能是為了他好。

Where has this ever really happened in our history?

在我們的歷史上，哪曾發生過這樣的事情？

And if I'm a Republican right now, particularly in the House, that has the second slimmest, the Republicans have the second slimmest majority in the history of this country, I'd be really concerned.

如果我現在是一名共和黨人，尤其是在眾議院，共和黨擁有該國曆史上第二少的多數席位，我會非常擔心。

Well, yet, at the same time, the Republicans are probably thinking, oh, you have blame it on Elon Musk cutting things.

然而，與此同時，共和黨人可能在想，哦，你得把責任推給埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）削減開支。

They're getting part of their agenda done, and they don't have to do it through legislation, which means they don't have to take bad votes.

他們正在完成部分議程，而且不必通過立法來完成，這意味著他們不必投反對票。

It's just a different way.

只是方式不同而已。

And I think my point was that somebody like Marco Rubio, who they all thought would kind of hold the line and be more traditional in his role, is going along with what the Trump administration wants hook, line, and sinker, it seems.

我認為我的觀點是，像馬可-盧比奧這樣的人，他們都認為他會堅守陣地，扮演更傳統的角色，但現在看來，他卻順著特朗普政府的意思走。

Democrats are expressing frustration, though, Amy.

不過，民主黨人也表達了不滿，艾米。

Here's some fiery remarks from their protests yesterday outside the Treasury Department.

以下是他們昨天在財政部外抗議時的一些激烈言論。

This is the most corrupt bargain we've ever seen in American history.

這是我們在美國曆史上見過的最腐敗的討價還價。

We have got to tell Elon Musk, nobody elected your ass.

我們得告訴埃隆-馬斯克，沒人選你這個混蛋。

We don't pledge allegiance to Elon Musk.

我們不效忠埃隆-馬斯克。

We don't pledge allegiance to the creepy 22-year-olds working for Elon Musk.

我們不效忠那些為埃隆-馬斯克工作的 22 歲怪人。

We are gonna be in your face, we are gonna be on your asses, and we are gonna make sure...

我們會在你的臉上，我們會在你的屁股上，我們要確保...

We are gonna make sure you understand what democracy looks like.

我們要讓你們明白民主是什麼樣子的。

Okay, so, Justin, as we're watching these comments, this is what's happening on Capitol Hill.

好了，賈斯汀，我們正在看這些評論，這是國會山發生的事情。

The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee called to subpoena Elon Musk, and now they're debating on it.

眾議院監督委員會的頭號民主黨人要求傳喚埃隆-馬斯克，現在他們正在就此進行辯論。

They're gonna vote here.

他們會在這裡投票

Amy, do voters want their leaders to be doing more to fight back?

艾米，選民們希望他們的領導人採取更多的反擊措施嗎？

Yes, but it's tricky, because we saw what happened in November.

是的，但這很棘手，因為我們看到了 11 月發生的事情。

And so I'm hearing from a lot of Democrats that what they have been doing is not good enough.

是以，我聽到很多民主黨人說，他們一直在做的事情還不夠好。

Having Senator Schumer out there essentially saying, we will not rest, and having all of these lawmakers out there is not good enough.

讓參議員舒默站出來說，我們不會罷休，讓所有這些立法者站出來是不夠的。

They need action, but they need a plan.

他們需要行動，但也需要計劃。

I think that's what they need more of.

我認為這正是他們需要的。

They don't need to be screaming in the streets.

他們不需要在街上尖叫。

They need to show voters what they are doing.

他們需要向選民展示他們在做什麼。

And so Democrats are kind of expressing that right now.

是以，民主黨人現在正在表達這種觀點。

They are frustrated, but they want their party leaders to be doing more.

他們感到沮喪，但他們希望黨的領導人能夠做得更多。

They want to take the fight to the streets, but they need to be doing more, and they have to be doing that right now.

他們想把鬥爭推向街頭，但他們需要做得更多，他們現在就必須這樣做。

And so that's why I think they're going to have to change.

是以，我認為他們必須做出改變。

A lot of people want people to burn the party down and build anew.

很多人希望人們燒燬黨，重新建黨。

And so I think that you're gonna start seeing a lot of that coming up.

是以，我認為你會開始看到很多這樣的情況出現。

That's what we hear Democrats saying.

我們聽到民主黨人是這麼說的。

Elon Musk is acting as president, but we have reporting that, at least quietly behind the scenes, he's being reminded that he still reports to the chief of staff, Susie Wiles.

埃隆-馬斯克正在代理總裁一職，但我們有報道稱，至少在幕後，有人悄悄提醒他，他仍向幕僚長蘇西-懷爾斯彙報工作。

Do you see her being able to rein him in?

你覺得她能控制住他嗎？

No, I'm sorry.

不，對不起。

Yeah, no, I don't see that at all.

是的，不，我完全沒看出來。

Because number one, can she even rein in her boss?

因為第一，她能管住她的老闆嗎？

Probably not.

可能不會。

And so I don't think you can.

所以我認為你不能這樣做。

Now that Elon Musk sort of has the keys to government, I don't really see anybody being able to rein him in in the short term.

現在，埃隆-馬斯克算是掌握了政府的鑰匙，我真的不認為有人能在短期內控制住他。

Maybe down the road after a lot of damage is already done, perhaps that actually happens.

也許在已經造成巨大損失之後，這種情況才會發生。

But I will say, just going back to something that Amy said, when you see Democrats out there standing in front of Treasury or protesting and such, those young members that are emerging as real stars right now, not only AOC, but Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett from Texas, Chris Murphy, who's already been very, very active.

但我想說的是，回到艾米說過的話，當你看到民主黨人站在財政部前或進行抗議之類的活動時，那些年輕的成員現在正成為真正的明星，不僅是AOC，還有來自德克薩斯州的女議員茉莉-克羅克特（Jasmine Crockett），以及已經非常非常活躍的克里斯-墨菲（Chris Murphy）。

I think what's gonna happen is you're going to see this kind of new movement of younger Democrats in DC, but also sort of out in the communities and in the states really trying to hold both sides, Democrats and Republicans accountable.

我認為將會發生的事情是，你將會在華盛頓看到年輕民主黨人的新運動，同時也會在社區和各州看到民主黨人和共和黨人真正試圖讓雙方都承擔責任。

And perhaps that sort of signals to Donald Trump and to the administration that, hey, we've got to turn the fire down a little bit, but I don't know that that happens in the short term.

這或許是在向唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）和政府發出信號："嘿，我們得把火調小一點，但我不知道這是否會在短期內發生。

I know you want to get in there, Susan.

我知道你想進去 蘇珊

Let me just really quick say, we're monitoring what's happening right now in that House Oversight Committee.

讓我簡單說一下，我們正在關注眾議院監督委員會現在的情況。

And again, a top Democrat on that committee, calling to subpoena Elon Musk.

該委員會的一位民主黨高層再次呼籲傳喚埃隆-馬斯克。

The debate is still underway.

辯論仍在進行中。

I want to play with some key Senate Republicans have told us about Musk's recent actions.

我想播放一下參議院共和黨人對馬斯克近期行動的一些重要看法。

He's basically doing an audit.

他基本上是在進行審計。

So I hope that he'll soon be doing a thorough report to Congress and the public.

是以，我希望他能儘快向國會和公眾提交一份詳盡的報告。

Do you have concern at all about the White House through Elon Musk or others seeking to cut off already congressionally appropriated funds?

你是否擔心白宮通過埃隆-馬斯克或其他人尋求切斷國會已經撥付的資金？

Well, I assume that's going to be the subject of some litigation and further discussion.

好吧，我想這將成為一些訴訟和進一步討論的主題。

He's throwing out big ideas.

他拋出了很多好主意。

And if anybody thinks that all of these big ideas are going to be implemented to conclusion, they don't understand the process of disruption.

如果有人認為所有這些偉大的想法都會得到實現，那他們就不瞭解顛覆的過程。

Everybody's acting like Congress doesn't exist anymore.

大家都表現得好像國會已經不存在了。

Do you and the other senators know what you're talking about?

你和其他參議員知道自己在說什麼嗎？

Will it require congressional approval to actually structurally change them?

是否需要國會準許才能真正從結構上改變它們？

Susan, these aren't hypotheticals.

蘇珊，這些不是假設。

It's happening.

正在發生

So when are they going to then step in?

那麼，他們什麼時候才會介入呢？

It is happening.

它正在發生。

And I think the biggest mistake Democrats are making is making it all about Elon Musk.

我認為民主黨人正在犯的最大錯誤就是把這一切都歸咎於埃隆-馬斯克。

Say Donald Trump is doing this.

就說唐納德-特朗普正在這麼做。

Donald Trump is purging the FBI.

唐納德-特朗普正在清洗聯邦調查局。

Donald Trump is cutting aid.

唐納德-特朗普正在削減援助。

Donald Trump is preventing packages, I know it reversed, from China to come in.

唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）正在阻止來自中國的包裹入境，我知道這是個反轉。

But Elon Musk, by doing that, he is unelected.

但埃隆-馬斯克這樣做，就等於沒有當選。

He is operating.

他正在操作。

He takes all of the fire away from Donald Trump's feet.

他把唐納德-特朗普腳下的火都給熄滅了。

Stop it.

別說了

Call out the president and say the president is doing presidential overreach.

罵總統，說總統越權。

Then put those Republicans on the line like Von Hilliard did.

那就像馮-希利亞德那樣，讓那些共和黨人站出來。

And he said, if you notice his words, Elon Musk threw the administration.

他說，如果你注意到他的話，埃隆-馬斯克把政府扔了。

Hold the White House accountable.

追究白宮的責任。

Right now, they're giddy that all the attention is everywhere else.

現在，所有的注意力都在其他地方，這讓他們暈頭轉向。

And I'll just say very quickly, you showed John Cornyn from Texas.

我只想快速地說，你展示了來自得克薩斯州的約翰-科寧（John Cornyn）。

He's got a primary coming up.

他馬上就要參加初選了

And so that's one of the things that might come out of this is that you're going to start seeing more factions within the Republican Party and challenging each other and holding current members' feet to the fire.

是以，這可能帶來的結果之一就是，共和黨內部會出現更多派別，他們會相互挑戰，並讓現任成員束手無策。

Not sure what the end result is, but primaries force people back.

雖然不知道最終結果如何，但初選迫使人們後退。