Name: 員工還是老闆？更多共和黨人對特朗普的 "打手 "馬斯克 "感到緊張 (Employee or the boss? More Republicans 'nervous' about Trump's 'hatchet man' Musk)
Uploaded: 2025-02-06T10:47:09.000Z
Duration: 12 min 16 s

More pieces of the federal government on a chopping block.

更多的聯邦政府機構被 "砍掉"。

But President Trump's hatchet man is facing increasing scrutiny himself as Elon Musk hacks away at the federal workforce with what appears to be no oversight.

但是，隨著埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）在似乎沒有任何監督的情況下大肆破壞聯邦工作人員隊伍，特朗普總統的 "打手 "自己也面臨著越來越多的審查。

Behind the scenes, Trump aides have had to remind Musk that he is in fact an employee, not the boss, and reports to the White House.

在幕後，特朗普的助手們不得不提醒馬斯克，他實際上是一名僱員，而不是老闆，並向白宮彙報工作。

But that hasn't slowed down the downsizing.

The CIA is the latest agency offering buyouts to employees.

中央情報局是最近一個向員工提供買斷的機構。

Agency for International Development, a key target of Trump's recent cutbacks, almost all staffers are being placed on administrative leave.

國際發展署是特朗普最近裁員的主要目標，幾乎所有工作人員都被安排休行政假。

Joining us now, senior political correspondent for The Hill, Amy Parnes, along with two MSNBC political analysts, Republican strategist Susan DelPercio and Democratic strategist Basil Smykle.

現在加入我們的是《國會山報》的資深政治記者艾米-帕內斯，以及兩位MSNBC政治分析師，共和黨戰略家蘇珊-德爾佩爾西奧和民主黨戰略家巴西爾-斯邁克爾。

Amy, as we're learning, our NBC team is reporting that 20,000 plus government employees have already indicated they're going to accept the buyout.

艾米，據我們瞭解，NBC團隊報道 已經有兩萬多名政府僱員表示 他們將接受買斷。

What are you hearing from people inside Washington about how they're looking at this right now?

你從華盛頓內部人士那裡聽到了什麼，他們現在是如何看待這件事的？

I mean, I'm hearing from people inside these institutions.

我是說，我從這些機構內部的人那裡聽說的。

No one knows what's happening, if they'll have a job, if they're going to be pushed out.

沒有人知道會發生什麼，他們是否會有工作，是否會被趕走。

There's more nervousness even among Republicans.

They know that Trump came in to clear the swamp again, but they didn't know just how far he would go.

他們知道特朗普上臺是為了再次清除沼澤，但他們不知道他會走多遠。

And I'm hearing that Republicans are getting a little bit nervous about how this is playing out, how Elon Musk is sort of dictating the terms.

我聽說共和黨人開始有點緊張了，他們擔心埃隆-馬斯克是如何支配這些條款的。

And that's why you're seeing a lot of pushback.

這就是為什麼你會看到很多反彈。

You're starting to see a little more pushback from the White House and from Susie Wiles and other people, you know, basically saying he is not the boss.

你開始看到白宮和蘇西-懷爾斯（Susie Wiles）等人的反擊，你知道，基本上是說他不是老闆。

He's here to help clear the swamp, but he's not in charge of it.

他是來幫助清理沼澤的，但他並不負責。

You said the CIA cutbacks in particular, the buyouts for all these CIA agents is particularly alarming.

你說中情局的裁員，特別是買斷中情局所有特工的做法尤其令人震驚。

It is alarming because it came right on the same day as this announcement the president made about Gaza.

令人震驚的是，就在總統宣佈有關加沙的消息的同一天。

And so I'm hearing from people inside that institution, and they're saying, what is happening?

是以，我聽到該機構內部的人說，到底發生了什麼？

You can't put a price tag on institutional knowledge.

機構知識是無法用價格來衡量的。

And the fact that all this chaos is brewing inside that institution is really problematic right at this moment.

而事實上，該機構內部正在醞釀的這一切混亂，此時此刻確實很成問題。

Susan, Republicans fashion themselves as the party of national security, back in the blue, for example.

蘇珊，共和黨人以國家安全黨自居，比如在藍色年代。

But they do seem to be looking the other way to a degree when it comes to what we're seeing at the CIA or within the FBI, the purge there.

但在某種程度上，當我們看到中情局或聯邦調查局內部的清洗行動時，他們似乎在睜一隻眼閉一隻眼。

And of course, can't forget the blanket pardons of all the January 6th convicted people.

當然，也不能忘記對所有 1 月 6 日被定罪者的全面赦免。

So are you surprised that this is how the GOP is reacting?

所以，你對美國共和黨的反應感到驚訝嗎？

No, because I think they're trying to follow it as much as anyone else, and they don't know which way to step is the bigger concern for them.

不，因為我認為他們和其他人一樣都在努力追隨它，他們不知道該走哪條路才是他們更關心的問題。

So the buyout, that's different than the purges and the administrative leaves.

是以，買斷與清洗和行政休假不同。

The buyout is simply to federal employees.

您可以在 9 月份之前拿到工資。

If you announce your intentions by this week.

如果您在本週之前宣佈您的意向。

Now, of course, if I was an employee, I would very much wonder, how are you going to pay me through September?

當然，如果我是一名僱員，我會非常納悶，你打算如何支付我到九月份的工資？

I wouldn't take the buyout because I don't think Trump can deliver on it.

我不會接受買斷，因為我不認為特朗普能做到這一點。

That being aside, putting the purge and the CIA issues or employees at issue, bigger concern is what's not getting done.

撇開清洗和中情局問題或僱員問題不談，更令人擔憂的是什麼事情沒有完成。

To me, it's not just the institutional knowledge, which is critical, but that means you don't have agents on the ground.

對我來說，這不僅僅是機構知識的問題，機構知識至關重要，但這意味著你在當地沒有代理人。

You know how long it takes to be a well-trained CIA agent?

你知道成為一名訓練有素的中情局特工需要多長時間嗎？

I don't know, but I can imagine it takes a lot of experience.  You just don't put them through the academy for three months.

我不知道，但我可以想象這需要很多經驗。  你不可能讓他們在學校待上三個月。

So what violent crimes aren't being tracked by the FBI?

那麼聯邦調查局沒有追蹤到哪些暴力犯罪呢？

That is the public safety risk that I see with a lot of that, on top of the uncertainty of a workforce that doesn't know if they're coming or going.

這就是我所看到的大量公共安全風險，以及不知道他們是來還是去的勞動力的不確定性。

And frankly, I don't think the administration knows if they're coming or going, because they have to reverse themselves left and right.

坦率地說，我不認為政府知道他們是來還是去，因為他們必須左右顛倒。

And that's when you take a look at somebody like Marco Rubio, who's now the Secretary of State.

這時候你再看看馬可-盧比奧這樣的人，他現在是國務卿。

He was confirmed unanimously to that position.

He's now overseeing the dismantling of USAID.

他現在正在監督美國國際開發署的解散工作。

And that's become the face, it seems, of the government purges that Democrats are saying are unconstitutional, by the way.

順便說一句，這似乎成了民主黨人認為違憲的政府大清洗的幌子。

不，我不認為民主黨人被耍了。

事實上，我們曾經談過這個問題。

If you remember, throughout last year, there was a lot of conversation on the left about being mindful of the impact of Project 2025.

如果你還記得，去年全年，左翼都在談論要注意 "2025 項目 "的影響。

And what you're seeing is the impact of not just disruptive politics, but destructive governance.

你們看到的不僅僅是破壞性政治的影響，還有破壞性治理的影響。

That's what I think a lot of Republicans, particularly in the Senate, don't want to have to deal with, because they can't answer questions from their constituents about what's happening tomorrow.

我認為很多共和黨人，尤其是參議院的共和黨人，都不想面對這種情況，因為他們無法回答選民關於明天會發生什麼的問題。

And you have someone like an Elon Musk, who is perhaps appointed, whatever that term means to Donald Trump, to be able to go in and do this.

而像埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）這樣的人，不管對唐納德-特朗普（Donald Trump）來說這個詞意味著什麼，他也許是被任命的，能夠進去做這件事。

In another country, this would be called a coup.

在其他國家，這將被稱為政變。

And he's going through with a team of people who are also not accountable into people's emails, into payment systems, without care and concern, seemingly, for the impact, the short- and long-term impact of this.

他還帶著一隊同樣不負責任的人，進入了人們的電子郵件和支付系統，似乎根本不關心也不在意這樣做的短期和長期影響。

Where has this ever really happened in our history?

在我們的歷史上，哪曾發生過這樣的事情？

And if I'm a Republican right now, particularly in the House, that has the second slimmest, the Republicans have the second slimmest majority in the history of this country, I'd be really concerned.

如果我現在是一名共和黨人，尤其是在眾議院，共和黨擁有該國曆史上第二少的多數席位，我會非常擔心。

Well, yet, at the same time, the Republicans are probably thinking, oh, you have blame it on Elon Musk cutting things.

然而，與此同時，共和黨人可能在想，哦，你得把責任推給埃隆-馬斯克（Elon Musk）削減開支。

They're getting part of their agenda done, and they don't have to do it through legislation, which means they don't have to take bad votes.

他們正在完成部分議程，而且不必通過立法來完成，這意味著他們不必投反對票。

And I think my point was that somebody like Marco Rubio, who they all thought would kind of hold the line and be more traditional in his role, is going along with what the Trump administration wants hook, line, and sinker, it seems.

我認為我的觀點是，像馬可-盧比奧這樣的人，他們都認為他會堅守陣地，扮演更傳統的角色，但現在看來，他卻順著特朗普政府的意思走。

Democrats are expressing frustration, though, Amy.

不過，民主黨人也表達了不滿，艾米。

Here's some fiery remarks from their protests yesterday outside the Treasury Department.

以下是他們昨天在財政部外抗議時的一些激烈言論。

This is the most corrupt bargain we've ever seen in American history.

這是我們在美國曆史上見過的最腐敗的討價還價。

We have got to tell Elon Musk, nobody elected your ass.

我們得告訴埃隆-馬斯克，沒人選你這個混蛋。

We don't pledge allegiance to the creepy 22-year-olds working for Elon Musk.

我們不效忠那些為埃隆-馬斯克工作的 22 歲怪人。

We are gonna be in your face, we are gonna be on your asses, and we are gonna make sure...

我們會在你的臉上，我們會在你的屁股上，我們要確保...

We are gonna make sure you understand what democracy looks like.

我們要讓你們明白民主是什麼樣子的。

Okay, so, Justin, as we're watching these comments, this is what's happening on Capitol Hill.

好了，賈斯汀，我們正在看這些評論，這是國會山發生的事情。

The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee called to subpoena Elon Musk, and now they're debating on it.

眾議院監督委員會的頭號民主黨人要求傳喚埃隆-馬斯克，現在他們正在就此進行辯論。

Amy, do voters want their leaders to be doing more to fight back?

艾米，選民們希望他們的領導人採取更多的反擊措施嗎？

Yes, but it's tricky, because we saw what happened in November.

是的，但這很棘手，因為我們看到了 11 月發生的事情。

And so I'm hearing from a lot of Democrats that what they have been doing is not good enough.

是以，我聽到很多民主黨人說，他們一直在做的事情還不夠好。

Having Senator Schumer out there essentially saying, we will not rest, and having all of these lawmakers out there is not good enough.

讓參議員舒默站出來說，我們不會罷休，讓所有這些立法者站出來是不夠的。

他們需要行動，但也需要計劃。

They don't need to be screaming in the streets.

They need to show voters what they are doing.

他們需要向選民展示他們在做什麼。

And so Democrats are kind of expressing that right now.

是以，民主黨人現在正在表達這種觀點。

They are frustrated, but they want their party leaders to be doing more.

他們感到沮喪，但他們希望黨的領導人能夠做得更多。

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員工還是老闆？更多共和黨人對特朗普的 "打手 "馬斯克 "感到緊張 (Employee or the boss? More Republicans 'nervous' about Trump's 'hatchet man' Musk)

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