China is money-driven and it's a bit mercenary and it's a bit, you know, you're below me and I'm up here and kuai dien.

中國是金錢至上的國家，有點唯利是圖，有點你在我之下，我在你之上的感覺。

Taiwan just feels really civilized and very comfortable.

臺灣給人的感覺就是非常文明、非常舒適。

Do you mind introducing yourself?

你介意自我介紹一下嗎？

My name's Alan McIver. I'm from Edinburgh, Scotland.

我叫艾倫-麥基弗。我來自蘇格蘭愛丁堡。

I've been in Taiwan for 15 years now.

我來臺灣已經 15 年了。

I have quite a few jobs. I write articles for Commonwealth and I'm a headhunter and I teach at Haida and I am an angel investor, so I invest in startups.

我有很多工作。我為《天下》寫文章，我是獵頭，我在海達教書，我是天使投資人，所以我投資初創企業。

Did you ever think that you would be involved in stuff like this in the beginning?

你一開始有沒有想過自己會參與這樣的活動？

I didn't really want to teach English at all. I just wanted to have fun in Asia.

我其實根本不想教英語。我只想在亞洲玩得開心。

I wanted to be a professional rock star.

我想成為一名職業搖滾明星。

I came to Taiwan, I formed a band here, playing music festivals all over, we're touring and then I realized about 27 that I needed to do something else and I panicked.

我來到臺灣，在這裡組建了一個樂隊，在各地參加音樂節，進行巡迴演出，然後我在 27 歲左右意識到我需要做點別的事情，我驚慌失措。

I had done really well academically as a kid, got straight A's, applied to study law at Cambridge University and then I had taught English for four years and I was like, what have I done with my career?

我小時候學習成績非常好，全 A，申請了劍橋大學的法律專業，然後我教了四年英語，我想，我的職業生涯到底做了什麼？

I felt like going from English teacher to corporate job in Taiwan was almost impossible.

我覺得在臺灣從英語教師到企業工作幾乎是不可能的。

I don't know if that was correct.

我不知道這是否正確。

Like you could apply for 100 jobs a week and they would all look at your CV and think, oh, taught English for four years, like no.

就像你一週可以申請 100 份工作，他們看了你的履歷都會覺得，哦，教了四年英語，好像不是。

Do you think that's because of certain stereotypes people have of English teachers?

你認為這是因為人們對英語教師的某些刻板印象嗎？

Yes, I do. I think that Taiwan is a very conservative culture in the sense that they're not creative outside the box thinkers.

是的，我是這麼認為的。我認為，臺灣是一個非常保守的文化圈，他們不善於打破常規的創新思維。

So most HR and most companies want someone who's done the exact same job in a different company.

是以，大多數人力資源部門和大多數公司都希望找一個在不同公司做過同樣工作的人。

And so we moved to Shanghai and after two months, I got a job in a headhunting company.

於是我們搬到了上海，兩個月後，我在一家獵頭公司找到了一份工作。

I feel the big difference between China and Taiwan is that in China, they're willing to take a risk.

我覺得中國大陸和臺灣最大的不同是，在中國大陸，他們願意冒險。

So hiring somebody like me was easier for them because they're like, oh, I see some potential here, let's give it a go.

是以，僱用像我這樣的人對他們來說更容易，因為他們會想，哦，我看到了一些潛力，讓我們試一試吧。

And I started going to sales meetings when they had foreign clients.

當他們有外國客戶時，我開始參加銷售會議。

I would charm the German guy.

我會迷住那個德國人。

They would do the expertise thing and then I would charm again and then we'd leave.

他們會做專業知識方面的事情，然後我會再次施展魅力，然後我們就離開了。

And they're like, oh my goodness, this YGORN is really useful.

他們會說，天哪，這個 YGORN 真的很有用。

God, I want Alan in every meeting because it's so much easier for me to do small talk.

天哪，我希望每次開會都能見到艾倫，因為這樣我就可以輕鬆地閒聊了。

And also I can really help with some of the lost in translation stuff.

此外，我還能幫助解決一些翻譯中的問題。

Bit of a, they started to really use me for my full potential.

他們開始真正發揮我的潛能。

So I started being able to hire for our company, chaperone, foreign counterparts.

是以，我開始能夠為我們公司僱用陪護、外國同行。

I was in charge of our events and I would be very much the face of the company in a lot of cases.

我負責公司的活動，在很多情況下，我都是公司的形象代言人。

And it was such a good experience for the company as well that before I left, we'd hired 20 foreigners.

這對公司來說也是一次很好的經歷，在我離開之前，我們已經聘用了 20 名外國人。

So I was the first foreigner.

所以我是第一個外國人。

And after that, they're like, this totally works.

之後，他們就會覺得，這完全行得通。

Let's hire a bunch of them.

讓我們僱傭一批這樣的人吧。

Some are good, some are bad, whatever.

有些是好的，有些是壞的，等等。

But it's just the same as hiring local colleagues.

但這和僱用當地同事是一樣的。

We can make them do different things.

我們可以讓它們做不同的事情。

And I meet a lot of foreigners in Taiwan who hate China because China is the political adversary of Taiwan.

我在臺灣遇到很多憎恨中國的外國人，因為中國是臺灣的政治對手。

And having lived there and spent time there, I really like China.

我在那裡生活過，也在那裡待過一段時間，我非常喜歡中國。

I had a great time there.

我在那裡度過了一段美好時光。

I prefer Taiwan.

我更喜歡臺灣。

It's a much nicer place to live.

這是個更適合居住的地方。

A lot of Taiwanese people have this impression that China is very bad, very authoritarian.

很多臺灣人都有這樣的印象：中國非常壞，非常專制。

But at the same time, 2 million Taiwanese people work there.

但與此同時，有 200 萬臺灣人在那裡工作。

Yeah.

是啊

What's up with that?

這是怎麼回事？

Do you know what?

你知道嗎？

I have opinions about the authoritarian control as well.

我對專制控制也有看法。

Because when I was there, China felt lawless.

因為我在那裡的時候，感覺中國無法無天。

Yeah?

是嗎？

So you never see police anywhere.

所以你在任何地方都看不到警察。

People seem to be doing whatever they want, wherever they want.

人們似乎想做什麼就做什麼，想在哪裡做就在哪裡做。

I saw people spit on the street a lot.

我經常看到有人隨地吐痰。

I saw a granny pee in front of me in the street.

我在街上看到一個老奶奶在我面前撒尿。

They're always letting their kids pee on the street.

他們總是讓孩子在街上撒尿。

This is in Shanghai?

這是在上海？

Yeah.

是啊

I mean, I'll give you another example.

我是說，我再給你舉個例子。

We went to the zoo in Shanghai.

我們去了上海的動物園。

We saw this bear.

我們看到了這隻熊。

And everyone crowded around us throwing things at the bear.

大家都圍著我們向熊扔東西。

And there was a monkey enclosure.

還有一個猴子圍欄。

And this Chinese guy got a bunch of water into his mouth.

這個中國人的嘴裡被灌了很多水。

And I spat it at the monkey.

我向猴子吐了一口唾沫。

It's like, what's going on?

這就像，這是怎麼回事？

I went to a supermarket once in China.

我在中國去過一次超市。

And it was a Tesco, so British supermarket.

那是一家特易購，很有英國超市的味道。

And then I came outside.

然後我來到外面。

And there's a guy who has a carpet.

還有一個人有一塊地毯。

And one of the things he's selling is a chopped off tiger's arm.

他賣的東西之一是一隻砍下來的老虎手臂。

And I'm not talking about the bones.

我說的可不是骨頭。

I'm talking about a full tiger arm.

我說的是全虎臂。

Also, we were watching TV one day.

另外，有一天我們在看電視。

And there was a massive explosion.

然後發生了大爆炸。

And a car had just blown up.

一輛汽車剛剛爆炸了。

And I think the main difference between Taiwan and China is it's a bit money-driven.

我認為臺灣和中國大陸的主要區別在於，臺灣有點金錢至上。

And it's a bit mercenary.

而且有點唯利是圖。

And it's a bit, you know, you're below me.

這有點，你知道，你比我低。

And I'm up here in Kuaidian.

我在奎迪恩。

And if you're in a restaurant in Taiwan, you would slowly try and get the waitresses or the waiters' eyes.

如果你在臺灣的餐廳裡，你會慢慢地試圖吸引女服務員或服務生的目光。

Can you give me a menu?

能給我一份菜單嗎？

If you're in China, you shout at the waitress.

如果你在中國，你會對服務員大喊大叫。

Waitress!

服務員

And these are really nice Chinese people.

這些都是非常好的中國人。

And they're still shouting at waitresses.

他們還在對女服務員大喊大叫。

So China was really cool.

所以，中國真的很酷。

And it was great.

而且非常棒。

And I enjoyed it.

我很喜歡。

But it's just a bit more Wild West.

但它只是更狂野一點的西部。

Taiwan just feels really civilized and very comfortable.

臺灣給人的感覺就是非常文明、非常舒適。

As an employer, why would I want to hire a foreigner that's a lot more expensive than, like, maybe a Taiwanese person that lived in the States for a long time, speaks a lot of good English?

作為僱主，我為什麼要僱用一個比在美國生活了很長時間、英語說得很好的臺灣人貴得多的外國人呢？

Most jobs do go to those people.

大多數工作都是給這些人的。

They are better candidates.

他們是更好的人選。

Westernized Taiwanese, they dominate the market.

西化的臺灣人，他們主導著市場。

They're the ones getting all the good jobs.

他們得到了所有的好工作。

The foreigners are very much niche hires.

外國人在很大程度上是小眾人才。

And so they are the price that the companies are willing to pay.

是以，這些都是公司願意付出的代價。

Come to Taiwan, you get a gold card.

來臺灣，你會得到一張金卡。

You look for jobs.

你要找工作。

And you say, well, my salary in San Francisco was 200k.

而你卻說，我在舊金山的薪水是 20 萬。

Most companies here are going to say,

這裡的大多數公司都會說：

OK, got it.

好的，明白了。

We're going to offer you 85.

我們將為您提供 85.

Who would take that?

誰會接受？

I know, mate.

我知道，夥計。

I can tell you the people that have a massive pull factor.

我可以告訴你哪些人有巨大的吸引力。

Things like my girlfriend's Taiwanese.

比如我女朋友是臺灣人。

Exactly.

沒錯。

Can you explain that to people, though, that living here is way cheaper and you don't need insurance and the rent is a lot less?

不過，你能向人們解釋一下，住在這裡會便宜很多，而且不需要保險，房租也便宜很多嗎？

Yeah, they do.

是的，他們是這樣做的。

But it still feels like a real stab.

但感覺還是很刺痛。

What are the other pull factors of working in Taiwan besides I have a Taiwanese girlfriend?

除了我有一個臺灣女朋友之外，在臺灣工作還有哪些吸引因素？

Taiwan has almost no crime.

臺灣幾乎沒有犯罪。

Taiwan is beautiful.

臺灣很美。

The food is great.

食物很棒。

The people are friendly.

人們都很友好。

It's good gender equality there.

這裡的性別平等很好。

It's comfortable for gay people.

這對同性戀者來說很舒服。

So the pull factors are mostly from that, as opposed to, oh, it's great to work in Taiwan because Taiwan is not a great place to work for a foreign expat if you're comparing it to Shanghai, Tokyo, Bangkok, Vietnam, Singapore.

是以，拉動因素主要來自於此，而不是 "哦，在臺灣工作真好"，因為如果將臺灣與上海、東京、曼谷、越南、新加坡相比，對於外籍人士來說，臺灣並不是一個理想的工作地點。

Really, pretty much anywhere else.

真的，其他地方也差不多。

In terms of pay or just the way you're treated?

是薪酬方面還是待遇方面？

In terms of job opportunities, salaries, chance for promotion, business attitudes.

在工作機會、薪水、晉升機會和商業態度方面。

Then why did you stay?

那你為什麼留下來？

I just really love it here.

我真的很喜歡這裡。

Also, I've done well here.

另外，我在這裡幹得不錯。

If you can be one of the exceptions, you know, milk it.

如果你能成為其中的一個例外，你知道的，擠出它。

Why not?

為什麼不呢？

Do the, you know.

做，你知道的。

You get best of both worlds.

兩全其美。

Exactly.

沒錯。

There's a handful of foreigners here who have had really good careers.

在這裡，有一些外國人的職業生涯非常出色。

They came up kind of like you as teachers.

他們和你一樣都是老師。

Yeah.

是啊

I mean, these are foreigners who are really integrated.

我的意思是，這些都是真正融入社會的外國人。

Foreigners who speak really good Chinese, it's a massive advantage.

外國人的中文說得非常好，這是一個巨大的優勢。

Just makes your local colleagues like you a lot more.

這隻會讓你當地的同事更喜歡你。

I find what happens in Taiwan a lot is that they're really nervous to speak to a foreigner and then they figure out you speak Chinese and then they speak English to you really well.

我發現在臺灣經常發生的情況是，他們跟外國人說話時非常緊張，然後他們發現你會說中文，然後就會跟你很好地說英語。

Yeah, exactly.

是啊，沒錯。

Because in their head, they're like, oh, it's fine.

因為在他們的腦子裡，他們會想，哦，沒關係。

But if you only speak English, it makes them really nervous.

但如果你只會說英語，他們就會非常緊張。

The ideal situation is when your colleagues stop seeing you as, you know, woman the Waigoren or woman the Laowai.

最理想的情況是，你的同事們不再把你當成 "外戈倫女人 "或 "老外女人"。

And they just see you as another colleague.

他們只是把你當成另一個同事。

And I've had to earn that respect in every single job I've been in.

在我從事的每一份工作中，我都必須贏得這種尊重。

And it's not easy.

這並不容易。

Let's say a client emails you in Chinese and it's a new colleague.

比方說，一位客戶用中文給你發郵件，而且是一位新同事。

And they're like, ha ha ha, the foreigner.

他們會說，哈哈哈，外國人。

And they emailed the foreigner in Chinese.

他們還用中文給外國人發郵件。

And they think, oh, I must be so fish out of water.

他們會想，哦，我一定是如魚得水了。

I can feel this email.

我能感覺到這封郵件。

I can reply.

我可以回答。

No problem at all.

完全沒問題。

They can send me a contract in Mandarin.

他們可以給我寄一份國語版本的合同。

We can have a business meeting in Mandarin.

我們可以用國語舉行商務會議。

No problem.

沒問題。

But they feel like, oh, the foreigner won't be able to do.

但他們覺得，哦，外國人做不到。

No, the foreigner can do that, actually.

不，其實外國人也可以這樣做。

I feel really like Taiwan is my home now.

我現在真的覺得臺灣就是我的家。

I consider myself Scottish and Taiwanese.

我認為自己是蘇格蘭人，也是臺灣人。

These days, and I'm really happy about this,

這些天，我真的很高興、

I have a lot of conversations with taxi drivers where they'll say, wow, your Chinese is really good.

我經常和計程車司機哈拉，他們會說，哇，你的中文說得真好。

How long have you been here?

你來這裡多久了？

Or do you have a Taiwanese wife?

還是你有個臺灣妻子？

Do you have any kids?

你有孩子嗎？

And then after a while, they start laughing.

過了一會兒，他們開始大笑起來。

And they're like, wow, you really are Taiwanese.

他們會說，哇，你真的是臺灣人。

And these kind of blue-collar taxi drivers are meeting this Uyghur and thinking, wow.

這些藍領計程車司機見到這位維吾爾族人後會想，哇。

Like, he's one of us.

就像，他是我們中的一員。

Like, he's really one of us.

就像，他真的是我們中的一員。

It's nice.

很不錯。

I like that.

我喜歡這樣。

I get seen as a bit of an insider-outsider.

我被看作是一個 "局外人"。

I think I know the culture well enough to be seen as an insider.

我想我對這裡的文化非常瞭解，足以被視為內部人士。

But I still have the foreigner perspective.

但我還是從外國人的角度看問題。

For example, I can write articles criticizing the business culture here.

例如，我可以寫文章責備這裡的商業文化。

And people seem to be like, we agree.

大家似乎都同意。

Whereas I have Taiwanese HR friends who said, I could never write what you write.

而我的臺灣人力資源朋友卻說，我永遠寫不出你寫的東西。

Yeah, you can get away with it.

是的，你能逃過這一劫。

I could never do it.

我永遠也做不到。

Have you heard of the term in Chinese, nu xin?

你聽說過中文中的 "如新 "嗎？

It's like the slave mentality.

這就像奴隸心態。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的

Yeah.

是啊

Do you think that's accurate to Taiwanese workplaces?

您認為這對臺灣的工作場所準確嗎？

I think a lot of Taiwanese, they work too hard.

我覺得很多臺灣人工作太辛苦了。

They have the boss is God mentality here as well, where they always work overtime.

這裡的人也有老闆就是上帝的心態，他們總是加班加點。

If their boss asks them to do anything, they do it.

如果老闆要求他們做什麼，他們就會去做。

They don't disagree with things in meetings.

他們不會在會議上提出不同意見。

They don't speak up.

他們不說話。

They don't ask for promotions or salary raises or to be moved to a different country.

他們不要求晉升或加薪，也不要求搬到其他國家。

It's very passive.

這是非常被動的。

It's like, oh, yes, boss.

就像，哦，是的，老闆。

Yes, boss.

是的，老闆。

Yes, boss.

是的，老闆。

And also, I feel like a lot of Taiwanese, they don't value their own work-life balance.

另外，我覺得很多臺灣人都不重視工作與生活的平衡。

You should have a life outside work.

你應該有工作之外的生活。

It's important to your happiness.

這對你的幸福很重要。

You shouldn't just be, oh, I work and then I show she.

你不應該只是 "哦，我工作，然後我展示她"。

That's not a good life.

這樣的生活並不好。

Yeah.

是啊

Do you feel like that is actually an asset for a foreigner to come here and start a startup?

你是否覺得，這實際上是外國人來這裡創辦初創企業的一個優勢？

Because they can get access to this giant labor pool of people that are very agreeable.

因為他們可以利用這個巨大的勞動力資源庫，這些人都非常合群。

I don't know why more foreign companies don't set up headquarters, Asia headquarters in Taiwan.

我不知道為什麼沒有更多的外國公司在臺灣設立總部，亞洲總部。

You have great workforce.

你們有優秀的員工隊伍。

All the expats that come here to manage Taiwan, they love it.

所有來此管理臺灣的外籍人士都喜歡這裡。

You know, it's cheap, highly educated, highly skilled.

要知道，這裡物美價廉、教育程度高、技術水平高。

The tax is not that high here.

這裡的稅率並不高。

Do you think that has to do with cross-strait relations and the political instability?

你認為這與兩岸關係和政治不穩定有關嗎？

I hope not.

希望不會。

I think that there's probably some truth in there, although it's not something that I hear companies talk about.

我認為這裡面可能有些道理，儘管我並沒有聽到公司談論過。

In my opinion, the reason Taiwan is not seen as more of a potential regional headquarters is because Taiwan's terrible with marketing itself.

在我看來，臺灣之所以沒有被視為潛在的地區總部，是因為臺灣的市場營銷能力很差。

Taiwan is good at manufacturing.

臺灣擅長製造業。

They're bad at marketing.

他們不擅長營銷。

Tell me a successful Taiwanese brand that has successfully gone overseas and HTC, you could argue, in 2012, 2013 was smashing it.

告訴我一個成功走向海外的臺灣品牌，你可以說，HTC 在 2012 年、2013 年的表現非常出色。

Giant, you could argue, yeah.

巨人，你可以說，是的。

Taiwan is just such a hidden gem.