Name: 楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分 外國教授批了美國甚麼引鬨堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision (楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分 外國教授批了美國什麼引哄堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision)
Uploaded: 2024-12-02T01:27:02.000Z
Duration: 6 min 11 s

Morten Bergsma, I'm the director of SILVRA, the Center for International Law Research and Policy.

莫滕-伯格斯馬（Morten Bergsma），我是國際法研究與政策中心（SILVRA）的主任。

Thank you for your brilliant presentation.

In the question of Xinjiang and the Uyghurs, the U.S.

在新疆和維吾爾族問題上，美國

State Department and various British actors are saying that there has been genocide.

美國國務院和英國各方面都說發生了種族滅絕。

Whilst the leading scholars of the law of genocide, they say that there is no evidence, there is no proof, and that the U.S.

雖然研究種族滅絕法的主要學者都說沒有證據，沒有證據，美國也沒有證據。

State Department should stop using this classification unless it produces the proof.

國務院應停止使用這一分類，除非它拿出證據。

By making use of such classifications as genocide and crimes against humanity, one also generates feelings of blameworthiness and that there is a threat from the Chinese government.

利用滅絕種族罪和反人類罪這樣的分類，也會讓人產生咎由自取的感覺，認為中國政府存在威脅。

What are your thoughts on the way the U.S. and British actors use human rights terminology, the human rights narrative, and soft international law in the contest which you refer to between the United States and China?

在您提到的中美之間的較量中，您如何看待美國和英國行為體使用人權術語、人權敘事和軟國際法的方式？

Well, it's part of the information warfare that makes it very difficult for us sometimes to know what to believe and what not to believe.

這是信息戰的一部分，它讓我們有時很難知道什麼該信，什麼不該信。

I first accompanied Lee Kuan Yew to Xinjiang in the year 2000, just before I stepped down as Prime Minister.

2000 年，就在我卸任總理之前，我第一次陪同李光耀訪問新疆。

That's not Xinjiang.  I was surprised when I went there to find that road signs were in Roman characters, in Chinese characters, and in Arabic characters.

那不是新疆。  我去的時候驚訝地發現，那裡的路標有羅馬字、漢字和阿拉伯文。

So I asked accompanying Chinese officials, I said, when did that happen?

於是我問隨行的中國官員，我說，這是什麼時候發生的？

In fact, when the Communists took over, they restored the names of many places to their Uyghur names.

事實上，共產黨接管政權後，將許多地名恢復為維吾爾語名稱。

But of course, the Chinese attitude is, you are a minority, you threaten me politically, I smash you.

當然，中國人的態度是，你是少數民族，你在政治上威脅我，我就打倒你。

Like they did with Yakut Bey in the 19th century, the Qing dynasty.

就像 19 世紀清朝對雅庫特貝伊所做的那樣。

But if you don't threaten me, then I'm very generous to you.

但如果你不威脅我，那我就對你很大方了。

In fact, I treat you better than Han people.

事實上，我對你比對漢人還好。

So the population policy never applied to the Uyghurs, and that's why there are many more Uyghurs today in proportionate terms than Han Chinese and any other group.

是以，人口政策從未適用於維吾爾人，這也是為什麼今天維吾爾人的比例要比漢人和其他任何群體都要多的原因。

So there's certainly no physical genocide.

是以，肯定不存在肉體上的種族滅絕。

In 2001, August, I went back to Xinjiang, the trade delegation, and I went into Kashgar.

2001 年 8 月，我回到新疆，貿易代表團，我走進了喀什。

In Kashgar, I saw women in Central Asian burkas, which is a whole basket put on top of their head.

在喀什，我看到穿著中亞罩袍的婦女，她們的頭頂上頂著一個籃子。

I asked Chinese officials, they said, why do you allow this?

我問中國官員，他們說，你們為什麼允許這樣做？

When I was in Urumqi, they took me horse riding.

我在烏魯木齊時，他們帶我去騎馬。

A young girl or boy will hop behind you, a Kazakh, and they'll gallop the horse, and it was very exciting.

一個年輕的女孩或男孩會跳到你身後，他們是哈薩克人，他們會策馬奔騰，非常刺激。

I tried to speak to her in my poor Mandarin.

我試著用蹩腳的國語跟她說話。

So again, I asked the Chinese, I said, why aren't you teaching them Chinese?

所以，我再次問中國人，我說，你們為什麼不教他們中文？

他們說，不，他們是遊牧民族。

They did not realize then, it was two weeks before September 11, that the Salafis had been working on their mines.

他們當時並沒有意識到，薩拉菲派一直在埋設地雷，那是在 9 月 11 日之前的兩個星期。

And from 2010 to 2015, there were a spate of terrorist incidents in China, to a point where the Han people in Xinjiang had to arm themselves.

而從 2010 年到 2015 年，中國接連發生恐怖事件，以至於新疆的漢族人民不得不武裝起來。

I also knew this from my cousins in China, who used to go to Xinjiang, and then during that period, they say it's no longer safe, and now they're all over Xinjiang again, because peace has returned.

我也是從我在中國的表親那裡知道的，他們以前經常去新疆，後來在那段時間，他們說那裡不再安全了，現在他們又滿新疆跑了，因為和平又回來了。

So this whole story, that there's genocide in Xinjiang, to me, does not reflect what's happening there.

是以，在我看來，新疆發生種族滅絕的整個故事並不能反映那裡發生的事情。

Yes, they have been draconian in making sure that Salafi influence is controlled in China.

是的，他們已經採取嚴厲措施，確保薩拉菲在中國的影響受到控制。

But all countries, including Singapore, face this problem.

但包括新加坡在內的所有國家都面臨這個問題。

And it's interesting that no Muslim country today has condemned China on the Xinjiang policy.

有趣的是，如今沒有一個穆斯林國家譴責中國的新疆政策。

But when I was cruising in Croatia, someone told me what an Italian professor in Chengdu said.

但當我在克羅地亞巡遊時，有人告訴我成都的一位意大利教授說過的話。

It's quite interesting, take it in the right spirit.

He said, the Americans are not known to love Chinese, they're not known to love Muslims, but somehow they love Chinese Muslims a lot.

他說，眾所周知，美國人不喜歡中國人，也不喜歡穆斯林，但不知為什麼，他們卻非常喜歡中國穆斯林。

From now on, join me in giving KS Royal Face the Royal Beauty Miracle Series.

從現在開始，和我一起為 KS Royal Face 帶來皇家美容奇蹟系列。

KS Royal Face Royal Beauty Miracle Series.

KS Royal Face 皇家美容奇蹟系列。

It has five types of EGF, specifically designed to prevent skin aging, strengthen skin repair, increase skin elasticity, ease skin wrinkles, and restore youthful confidence.

它含有五種 EGF，專門用於防止皮膚老化、加強皮膚修復、增加皮膚彈性、緩解皮膚皺紋和恢復年輕自信。

Five types of EGF, all-in-one essence, and essence cream.

五種 EGF、多合一精華素和精華霜。

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楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分外國教授批了美國甚麼引鬨堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision (楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分外國教授批了美國什麼引哄堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision)

evidence

brilliant

confidence

narrative

楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分 外國教授批了美國甚麼引鬨堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision (楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分 外國教授批了美國什麼引哄堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision)

evidence

brilliant

confidence

narrative

楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分外國教授批了美國甚麼引鬨堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision (楊榮文:資訊戰的一部分外國教授批了美國什麼引哄堂大笑?【國際360】20241112@全球大視野Global_Vision)