It is unrivaled as an introduction to the subject of art, from the earliest cave paintings to the experimental art of today.

從最早的洞穴壁畫到當今的實驗藝術，它都是無與倫比的藝術入門讀物。

First published in 1950, it is the world's best-selling book on art, and it has been translated into 24 languages.

該書於 1950 年首次出版，是世界上最暢銷的藝術書籍，已被翻譯成 24 種語言。

Gombrich, who served much of his career at the Warburg Institute in London, has written more than 20 books and won numerous awards, including the Goethe Prize for Achievement in Art and Culture.

貢布里希的大部分職業生涯都在倫敦沃伯格學院度過，他撰寫了 20 多本書，並獲得了包括歌德藝術與文化成就獎在內的眾多獎項。

And he is widely regarded as one of the greatest art historians of the second half of this century, and we are therefore very pleased to have him here.

他被公認為本世紀下半葉最偉大的藝術史學家之一，是以我們非常高興他能來到這裡。

Welcome.

歡迎光臨

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。

This is an extraordinary book, as you well know, and as people have praised.

眾所周知，這是一本非同尋常的書，人們對它讚不絕口。

How did it come into being?

它是如何誕生的？

More or less by accident.

多少有點意外。

There are so many things in life.

生活中有很多事情。

It came into being because I had once had the commission to write the history of the world for children, when I was still in Vienna as a young man.

這本書之所以誕生，是因為我年輕時還在維也納時，曾受命為孩子們編寫世界史。

I wrote this, which happened to be a great success, and I was asked now to write the history of art for children.

我寫了這本書，碰巧大獲成功，現在有人邀請我為孩子們寫藝術史。

My reply was that the history of art isn't for children.

我的回答是，藝術史不是給孩子們看的。

But when they went on pressing me,

但當他們繼續逼問我時

I said I could write it, but not for children.

我說我可以寫，但不是給孩子們寫的。

And that is how this book roughly came into being, that I decided to make this attempt, and after a number of interruptions due to the war and other reasons,

這就是這本書的大致誕生過程，在經歷了戰爭和其他原因的多次中斷之後，我決定進行這一嘗試、

I even tried to finish it.

我甚至想把它寫完。

Why do you think it's met with such acceptance?

你認為它為什麼會被如此接受？

I think, or I hope, it is because I don't try to give myself airs.

我想，或者說我希望，這是因為我不刻意修飾自己。

I don't try to make a mystery of things which are not a mystery, but I admit that there are mysteries which one needn't discuss because they are too obviously mysteries.

我並不試圖把並不神祕的事情弄得神祕莫測，但我承認，有些神祕的事情無需討論，因為它們太明顯是神祕的了。

You also have said before, and correct me if I'm wrong, because the fact that it's said does not necessarily mean you said it, that the story of art makes a difference, that it is the story of art.

你以前也說過，如果我說錯了，請糾正我，因為說了並不一定代表你說過，藝術的故事與眾不同，它就是藝術的故事。

That is entirely true. I'm glad that you mentioned this.

完全正確。我很高興你提到了這一點。

The story in the sense that it is not just a chronicle of one thing after another.

故事的意義在於，它不僅僅是一件又一件事情的編年史。

There's a chronicle of fashion, for instance.

例如，這裡有一部時尚編年史。

But the development of image-making is a story insofar as there is a story also behind the development of flying or other achievements of mankind insofar as people strove for certain aims and passed on their achievements to others.

但是，影像製作的發展是一個故事，就像人類的飛行或其他成就的發展背後也有一個故事一樣，只要人們努力實現某些目標並將他們的成就傳遞給他人。

And so there's a coherence in the story which one can tell as a chain of events which hangs together.

是以，故事具有連貫性，可以說是一環扣一環。

That seems to be what everybody seems to like so much about it.

這似乎也是大家喜歡它的原因。

It is, in fact.

事實上就是這樣。

What you have brought to bear is the connection and the unfolding story of art.

你所帶來的是藝術的聯繫和展開的故事。

That's what I try to do, yes.

是的，我就是這麼做的。

What about modern art?

現代藝術呢？

Modern art is an interesting point in this respect because my story, in a certain sense, is a story of the conflict between two opposing problems or methods of representing the world which, in a simplified form, you can say you draw what you know or you draw what you actually see.

在這方面，現代藝術是一個有趣的觀點，因為我的故事，在某種意義上，是兩個對立的問題或表現世界的方法之間的衝突的故事，用一種簡化的形式，你可以說你畫你所知道的，或者你畫你實際看到的。

And I explained that the Egyptians drew, in that sense, what they knew rather than what they saw in front of them and that this development went as far as Impressionism where the principle of what was called the innocent eye, really looking at what you actually see, triumphed.

我解釋說，從這個意義上說，埃及人畫的是他們所知道的東西，而不是他們眼前所看到的東西，這種發展一直到印象派，在印象派中，所謂 "純真之眼 "的原則，即真正觀察你所看到的東西，取得了勝利。

This happened at the end of the 19th century and the problem of the coming of what was to happen afterwards represents really the story of our century.

這發生在 19 世紀末，而 "未來 "的來臨和 "之後 "會發生什麼的問題，實際上就是我們這個世紀的故事。

So when you ask what about modern art, modern art is confronted with a certain break in that chain and the search for very different solutions.

是以，當你問及現代藝術是怎麼回事時，現代藝術面臨著這一鏈條的某種斷裂，需要尋找截然不同的解決方案。

I try to explain in the book that one of the reasons for this break was that, in a sense, the theory which was underlying Impressionism is a little too simple.

我在書中試圖解釋，這種斷裂的原因之一是，從某種意義上說，印象派的基礎理論有點過於簡單。

We can never completely separate what we know from what we see and therefore the whole idea broke down and I should have added, and I did add in a later page, that photography had a lot to do with this too.

我們永遠無法將我們所知道的和我們所看到的完全分開，是以整個想法就崩潰了，我應該補充一點，我確實在後面的一頁中補充了，攝影也與此有關。

So the search for alternatives, what an artist, an image maker, can do was on and it still goes on all the time.

是以，人們一直在尋找替代品，尋找藝術家、影像製作者能做什麼，而且這種尋找仍在繼續。

You have never been a great collector.

你從來都不是一個出色的收藏家。

I've never been a great or a minor collector.

我從來都不是大收藏家，也不是小收藏家。

Or a minor collector. Why is that?

或者是一個小收藏家。為什麼會這樣？

First of all, I never had a lot of money.

首先，我從來沒有很多錢。

Well, that's a start, but I know good collectors who didn't start with a lot of money.

這只是一個開始，但我知道一些優秀的收藏家並不是一開始就有很多錢。

That is true. I have no possessive instincts.

沒錯我沒有佔有慾

I'm very happy when I see a great painting in a great gallery or museum and I don't feel, oh, I wish I would own that.

當我在一個偉大的畫廊或博物館裡看到一幅偉大的畫作時，我感到非常高興，我不會覺得 "哦，我希望我能擁有它"。

I'm very happy that it's there where it is.

我很高興它能在這裡。

To enjoy it in the museum.

在博物館裡欣賞

Exactly.

沒錯。

Or the gallery. But you do have prints.

或者畫廊但你確實有印刷品。

My father was a print collector and I own a number of pleasant prints and even quite valuable prints.

我的父親是一位版畫收藏家，我擁有許多令人愉悅的版畫，甚至是相當珍貴的版畫。

Let me take you back to Vienna.

讓我帶你回到維也納。

Yes.

是的。

Your mother knew and was friends with

你母親認識的朋友

Gustav Mahler and also Sigmund Freud.

古斯塔夫-馬勒，還有西格蒙德-弗洛伊德。

Yes.

是的。

She knew Sigmund Freud very well.

她非常瞭解西格蒙德-弗洛伊德。

I wouldn't say that she was friends with Sigmund Freud.

我不會說她是西格蒙德-弗洛伊德的朋友。

That's right. And who was?

沒錯。是誰呢？

What did she tell you about them and what was their...

她告訴了你關於他們的什麼情況，他們的...

Well, she told me many things.

她告訴了我很多事情。

She said that Sigmund Freud was the best teller of Jewish jokes she had ever encountered.

她說，西格蒙德-弗洛伊德是她遇到過的最會講猶太笑話的人。

And Mahler?

馬勒呢？

Mahler was a difficult man, as you know.

如你所知，馬勒是個很難相處的人。

A man with a nervous tic and with great difficulties.

一個患有神經性抽搐的人，困難重重。

But she admired him very much as a person.

但她非常欽佩他的為人。

Music.

音樂

As a musician.

作為一名音樂家

Did you grow up with a greater sense of music than painting?

在您的成長過程中，音樂比繪畫更重要嗎？

Absolutely, yes. Certainly.

當然，是的。當然

Music played a central part in my family and in our house.

音樂在我的家庭和我們的房子裡發揮著核心作用。

You left Vienna.

你離開了維也納

That's right.

這就對了。

As the Nazis came to power in Germany and began to expand and went to London.

納粹在德國掌權後，開始擴張並進軍倫敦。

That's right.

這就對了。

How did you spend the war?

你是如何度過戰爭的？

In a listening post of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

在英國廣播公司的監聽崗位上。

I listened for six years mainly to German propaganda broadcasts and translated them into English.

六年來，我主要收聽德國的宣傳廣播，並將其翻譯成英語。

It was not a very thrilling work, but hard work.

這項工作並不驚心動魄，但很辛苦。

And I learned a good deal of English in the process because if you have language lessons eight hours a day for six years, you have to learn it.

在這個過程中，我學到了很多英語，因為如果你在六年裡每天上八小時的語言課，你就必須學會它。

Were you the first person in London to know of Hitler's death?

你是倫敦第一個知道希特勒死訊的人嗎？

Yes, so I always tell, and I'm pretty sure it's true.

是的，我總是這麼說，而且我敢肯定這是真的。

I mean, I listened.

我是說，我聽了。

How did that happen?

怎麼會這樣？

What happened was that towards the very end of the war there was one of these announcements on the German wireless that stand by for an important announcement and it was pretty obvious that this had to do with Hitler.

事情是這樣的，在戰爭即將結束時，德國無線電臺發佈了這樣一條消息："準備發佈一條重要消息。"很明顯，這條消息與希特勒有關。

And so I was called in as a more experienced listener and I had the idea that to make it as quickly as possible to pass on the news when it came,

於是，我作為一名更有經驗的聽眾被叫了進來，我的想法是，當消息傳來時，儘快把它傳遞出去、

I wrote on pieces of paper,

我在紙上寫字、

Hitler abdicates, Hitler dead, Hitler surrenders, and so on and so forth.

希特勒退位、希特勒死亡、希特勒投降，如此等等。

So when the voice came and said,

所以，當聲音傳來說

Our Fuhrer has fallen in the struggle against Bolshevism,

我們的元首在反對布爾什維主義的鬥爭中倒下了、

I pointed to the right piece of paper and they quickly rang up Downing Street.

我指了指那張紙，他們很快就給唐寧街打了電話。

To tell Churchill.

告訴丘吉爾

To tell Churchill.

告訴丘吉爾

Was Churchill asleep? What time of day was it?

丘吉爾睡著了嗎？當時是什麼時間？

I don't think he was asleep.

我不認為他睡著了。

I think it was not far from lunchtime.

我想離午餐時間不遠了。

When did they play Wagner?

他們什麼時候和瓦格納比賽的？

They didn't play, at that time, Wagner.

當時，他們沒有演奏瓦格納。

They played Bruckner.

他們演奏了布魯克納。

They played a slow movement from one of Bruckner's symphonies which Bruckner had written to commemorate the death of Wagner.

他們演奏了布魯克納交響曲中的一個慢板樂章，這是布魯克納為紀念瓦格納的逝世而創作的。

And I recognized this fact and so I had an inkling what was coming.

我認識到了這一事實，是以我對即將發生的事情早有預感。

Was there ever any interest on your part in becoming a musician with all the music that was part of your family?

你的家庭音樂氛圍濃厚，你有興趣成為一名音樂家嗎？

No, certainly not. I lacked the talent.

不，當然不是。我缺乏天賦。

You lacked the talent?

你缺乏天賦？

Yes, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

And you were a professor at Oxford?

你是牛津大學的教授？

I was also a professor at Oxford.

我還是牛津大學的教授。

And after the publication of this, what happened?

這篇報道發表後，發生了什麼？

Well, I was invited to many places to give lectures or to teach and give seminars, and this I did very often in the United States but elsewhere as well.

我被邀請到很多地方去演講、講課和舉辦研討會，我經常在美國和其他地方這樣做。

And when were you knighted?

你是什麼時候被封為爵士的？

I think it was in 72, but I'm not quite sure.

我想是在 72 年，但我不太確定。

You will have to look it up in the reference book.

您必須在參考書中查找。

Your favorite artist.

您最喜愛的藝術家

Who have...

誰...

I don't think I have a favorite artist.

我想我沒有最喜歡的藝術家。

You know, I don't give marks to artists.

你知道，我不給藝術家打分。

I admire some artists tremendously, but when I then see the work of another,

我非常欣賞一些藝術家，但當我看到另一位藝術家的作品時、

I say, well, he's also wonderful.

我說，好吧，他也很棒。

But I admire, for instance, Velázquez enormously.

但我非常欣賞委拉斯開茲。

I admire Chardin enormously.

我非常欽佩夏爾丹。

Artists, in other words, whose métier, whose painting is so totally marvelous in the way they put on paint on canvas that it is miraculous.

換句話說，這些藝術家的繪畫技藝、將顏料塗抹在畫布上的方式是如此令人驚歎，堪稱奇蹟。

What is it, the quality that appeals to you in terms of putting paint on canvas?

在畫布上塗抹顏料對你有什麼吸引力？

Well, it is a matter of astonishing skill and experience of conjuring up with a few pieces of colored earth, as it were, the sight of, let us say, a drug or whatever it is.

嗯，用幾塊彩色的泥土就能讓人看到某種藥物或其他東西，這需要驚人的技巧和經驗。

Ever looked at a painting and cried?

有沒有看著一幅畫哭過呢？

No, never.

沒有，從來沒有。

But you've certainly looked at a painting and smiled and looked at a painting and taken your imagination to...

但你肯定也曾看著一幅畫微笑，看著一幅畫發揮你的想象力......

You know, it's very interesting that you ask this question because Leonardo da Vinci was very interested in the effects of painting.

你問這個問題非常有意思，因為達文西對繪畫的效果非常感興趣。

He said that nobody cries, but people laugh at paintings.

他說，沒有人會哭，但人們會嘲笑繪畫。

You think people don't cry?

你以為人們不會哭嗎？

I mean, that among the emotional rains that painting evokes, it is not sadness or...

我的意思是說，在繪畫所喚起的情感雨露中，不是悲傷或...

Oh, yes.

哦，是的。

Surely there are stories of Frederick the Great crying when he saw the painting of the death of color and so on.

當然，也有腓特烈大帝看到 "彩色之死 "的油畫時痛哭流涕的故事，等等。

There are such stories.

有這樣的故事。

But I have never cried in front of a painting.

但我從未在一幅畫前哭過。

Do you have a favorite color?

你有喜歡的顏色嗎？

No.

不

No.

不

No.

不

How about a favorite time in the history of art, the story of art, that you felt was the greatest flourishing of talent and inspiration and skill?

在藝術史上，在藝術的故事中，你最喜歡的一段時期是什麼時候？你覺得這段時期是才華、靈感和技能最蓬勃發展的時期嗎？

Well, it's not very original to say that the fifth century was an incredible time, a kind of landslide of new ideas and new methods which happened in this miraculous century together with the invention of the drama and the birth of modern philosophy and, if you like, modern science.

可以說，五世紀是一個不可思議的時代，是新思想和新方法的山崩地裂，在這個奇蹟般的世紀裡，戲劇的發明、現代哲學的誕生以及現代科學（如果你願意的話）都一併發生了。

Do you... When you...

你...當你...

Do artist lives interest you?

您對藝術家的生活感興趣嗎？

Not excessively, no.

不過分，沒有。

No.

不

The connection between the life lived and the art is not something...

生活與藝術之間的聯繫並不是...

No, naturally, if it is important for the understanding of the work, the life may interest me.

不，自然，如果這對理解作品很重要，我可能會對生活感興趣。

But on the whole, the life interests me as documents rather than as human documents.

但總的來說，我感興趣的是生活中的文件，而不是人的文件。

I mean, there are exceptions, of course.

當然，也有例外。

Who wouldn't be moved by the life of Van Gogh, for instance?

比如說，誰會不為梵高的一生所感動呢？

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Did you say Van Gogh?

你說梵高？

Yes.

是的。

Yes, that's what I thought.

是的，我也是這麼想的。

Because of the pain and the fact...

因為痛苦和事實...

It's an extraordinary human story, what he went through, and at the same time, the fact that when he died, at whatever mental condition he died, his work had not received any...

這是一個非同尋常的人性故事，他經歷了什麼，同時，當他去世時，無論他的精神狀況如何，他的作品都沒有得到任何...

His work had hardly received any.

他的作品幾乎沒有獲得任何獎項。

Hardly, yes.

很難說，是的。

There was somebody who wrote him up and said, this is a great master.

有人給他寫了一封信，說這是一位偉大的大師。

It was beginning, but he died too early.

一切才剛剛開始，但他死得太早。

Did he know it in his head?

他心裡明白嗎？

No.

不

I don't know.

我不知道。

But, of course, he was constantly in touch with his brother who was, in fact, an art dealer and completely aware of what happened in the world of art.

當然，他一直與他的兄弟保持聯繫，而他的兄弟實際上是一位藝術品商人，對藝術界發生的事情瞭如指掌。

Which is your favourite museum in the world today?

您最喜歡當今世界上哪個博物館？

The favourite place?

最喜歡的地方？

I like best being in a small museum.

我最喜歡待在一個小博物館裡。

So the Frick is, for instance, a wonderful place.

比如說，弗裡克美術館就是一個很棒的地方。

The Mauritshuis is a wonderful place.

模裡西斯博物館是一個美妙的地方。

The Wallace Collection...

華萊士收藏館...

Why do you like small places?

你為什麼喜歡小地方？

Because I don't like to walk to large distances.

因為我不喜歡走很遠的路。

I get indigestion in a great museum.

我在偉大的博物館裡會消化不良。

Tell me about influences on you in terms of your own thinking about art.

請談談對你藝術思維的影響。

What's influenced you and the life that you have lived?

是什麼影響了你和你的生活？

Well, first of all,

首先

I was a student of the University of Vienna and the university was very proud of representing the so-called Vienna School of Art History, which has a very remarkable ancestry.

我曾是維也納大學的學生，該校非常自豪地代表著所謂的維也納藝術史學派，它有著非常了不起的祖先。

There were some very great thinkers about art and names like Wallace Riegel or Max Dvorak and others.

有一些非常偉大的藝術思想家，如華萊士-裡格爾（Wallace Riegel）或馬克斯-德沃夏克（Max Dvorak）等人。

My own teacher was a real master of the subject.

我的老師是一位真正的大師。

Who was that?

他是誰？

He was Julius von Schlosser.

他就是朱利葉斯-馮-施洛瑟。

He wrote the standard work on the literature of art, which is still in use.

他撰寫了關於藝術文學的標準著作，至今仍在使用。

Another was the archaeologist Emanuel Löwy, who was one of the first to propose this distinction of from knowing to seeing, which I made the armature of my book.

另一位是考古學家伊曼紐爾-洛維（Emanuel Löwy），他是最早提出 "從知道到看見 "這一區別的人之一，我把它作為我這本書的基礎。

So I was much influenced by Emanuel Löwy's book on the imitation of nature and art which was published in 1900.

是以，我深受伊曼紐爾-洛維 1900 年出版的《自然與藝術的模仿》一書的影響。

I knew him as a very old man, but I admired him very much.

我認識他時，他已經很老了，但我非常欽佩他。

When you look today at the influences on art, are you pleased, alarmed?

今天，當你審視藝術所受到的影響時，你會感到高興還是震驚？

I'm sometimes alarmed and sometimes pleased.

我時而感到震驚，時而感到高興。

When which?

什麼時候？

When sensationalism takes over and some of the media and artists are tempted, as it were, to do something not because they feel like it, but because it will be a talking point,

當譁眾取寵的風氣盛行，一些媒體和藝術家受到誘惑，去做一些不是因為他們喜歡，而是因為這會成為一個話題的時候、

I feel very much alarmed.

我感到非常震驚。

On the other hand, I know that there are many who are very sincerely striving, and those I admire.