Yes.

是的。

Let's go.

我們走吧

If you're here, then you already know who she is, and that is one of the most important musical figures of our time.

如果你在這裡，那麼你已經知道她是誰，她是我們這個時代最重要的音樂人物之一。

Lydia Tarr is many things.

莉迪亞-塔爾是個多面手。

A piano performance graduate at the Curtis Institute, Phi Beta Kappa from Harvard.

畢業於柯蒂斯學院鋼琴演奏專業，哈佛大學 Phi Beta Kappa 獎得主。

She got her Ph.D. in musicology from the University of Vienna, specializing in the indigenous music of the Ucayali Valley in eastern Peru, where she spent five years among the Shipibo-Kanibbo people.

她在維也納大學獲得音樂學博士學位，專攻祕魯東部烏卡亞利山谷的土著音樂，並在那裡與希皮博-卡尼博人一起生活了五年。

As a conductor, Tarr began her career with the Cleveland Orchestra, one of the so-called Big Five.

作為一名指揮家，塔爾的職業生涯始於五大樂團之一的克利夫蘭交響樂團。

A string of important posts followed, including the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the Boston Symphony Orchestra, until she last arrived here at our own New York Philharmonic.

之後，她又先後擔任費城交響樂團、芝加哥交響樂團、波士頓交響樂團等重要職務，最後來到紐約愛樂樂團。

With the latter, she organized the Highway 10 Refugee Concerts in Zaatari, which were attended by over 75,000 people.

她與後者一起在扎阿特里組織了 "10 號公路難民音樂會"，超過 75 000 人参加了音樂會。

She's become particularly well-known for commissioning contemporary work from, among others, Jennifer Higdon, Caroline Shaw, Julia Wolf, and Hildur Gunadalter, and she's made a point of programming their works alongside composers of the canon.

她因委託詹妮弗-希格頓（Jennifer Higdon）、卡羅琳-肖（Caroline Shaw）、朱莉婭-沃爾夫（Julia Wolf）和希爾德爾-古納達爾特（Hildur Gunadalter）等人創作當代作品而聲名鵲起，她還經常將這些人的作品與經典作曲家的作品一同編排。

She's been quoted as saying, these composers are having a conversation, and it may not always be so polite.

有人引述她的話說，這些作曲家正在進行對話，而這種對話可能並不總是那麼禮貌。

Lydia Tarr has also written music for the stage and screen.

莉迪亞-塔爾還為舞臺和銀幕創作音樂。

She is, in fact, one of only 15 so-called EGOTs, meaning those who have won all four major entertainment awards, an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony.

事實上，她是僅有的 15 位所謂 "EGOT "之一，即獲得過艾美獎、格萊美獎、奧斯卡獎和託尼獎這四大娛樂獎項的人。

It is, as you can imagine, an extremely short and shimmering list that includes Richard Rogers, Audrey Hepburn, Andrew Lloyd Webber, and, of course, Mel Brooks.

可以想象，這是一份極其簡短而閃亮的名單，其中包括理查德-羅傑斯、奧黛麗-赫本、安德魯-勞埃德-韋伯，當然還有梅爾-布魯克斯。

In 2010, with the support of Elliot Kaplan, she founded the Accordion Conducting Fellowship, which fosters entrepreneurship and performance opportunities for female conductors, allowing them residencies with major orchestras around the world.

2010 年，在埃利奧特-卡普蘭（Elliot Kaplan）的支持下，她創立了手風琴指揮獎學金，為女指揮家提供創業和演出機會，讓她們在世界各地的大型交響樂團駐團。

In 2013, Berlin elected Tarr as its principal conductor in succession to Andris Davids, and she's remained there ever since.

2013 年，柏林選舉塔爾接替安德里斯-戴維德（Andris Davids）擔任首席指揮，並一直擔任至今。

Like her mentor, Leonard Bernstein, Tarr has a particular affinity for Mahler, whose nine symphonies she recorded during her Big Five stints.

與她的導師倫納德-伯恩斯坦一樣，塔爾對馬勒情有獨鍾，在五大交響樂團任職期間，她錄製了馬勒的九部交響曲。

However, she never managed to complete the so-called cycle with a single orchestra until now.

然而，直到現在，她也沒能用一個樂團完成所謂的循環。

Under her direction, Berlin has recorded eight of the Mahler symphonies, saving the big one, Symphony No. 5, for last.

在她的指揮下，柏林錄製了馬勒的八部交響曲，其中最重要的第五交響曲留到了最後。

Due to the pandemic, that performance, which was scheduled for last year, had to be canceled.

由於大流行病，原定於去年的演出不得不取消。

But I am told that next month she will make a live recording of Mahler's Fifth, which will complete the cycle and will be issued in a box set by Deutsche Grammophon just in time for Mahler's birthday.

但我聽說，下個月她將錄製馬勒第五交響曲的現場錄音，這將完成整個交響曲的錄製，並將由德意志留聲機公司在馬勒生日時發行一套盒裝唱片。

As if that's not enough, her new book, Tarr on Tarr, will be published by Nantalese's imprint at Doubleday just in time for Christmas.

如果這還不夠，她的新書《塔爾論塔爾》（Tarr on Tarr）將在聖誕節前由 Doubleday 旗下的 Nantalese 出版社出版。

A perfect stocking stuffer, especially if you have a very large stocking.

一個完美的襪子塞，尤其是如果你有一個非常大的襪子的話。

All of us at The New Yorker welcome you.

紐約客》全體同仁歡迎您的到來。

Thank you for joining us, maestro, today.

感謝您參加我們的節目，大師。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Lydia, I couldn't help but see you flinch just a little bit as I was reading your bio.

莉迪亞，當我讀到你的履歷時，我不禁看到你有些退縮。

Was it because I forgot some other amazing achievement, or do you have a slight self-consciousness about the incredibly varied things that you've accomplished?

是因為我忘記了其他令人驚歎的成就，還是你對自己取得的令人難以置信的各種成就有一點自知之明？

Well, in today's world, varied, it's a dirty word.

好吧，在當今世界，"多樣 "是一個骯髒的詞。

Our era is one of specialists, and if you're trying to do more than one thing, it's often frowned upon.

我們的時代是一個專家的時代，如果你想做不止一件事，往往會被人詬病。

Every artist gets typecast.

每個藝術家都會被類型化。

Oh, yes, aggressively so.

哦，是的，咄咄逼人。

Well, do you think there'll be a moment, though, when the classical music community decides not to use sexual distinctions to differentiate artists?

不過，你認為古典音樂界會不會有一天決定不再用性別來區分藝術家？

I'm probably the wrong person to ask since I don't read reviews.

我可能問錯人了，因為我不看評論。

Never, really.

從來沒有，真的。

No.

不

But it is odd.

但這很奇怪。

I think that anyone ever felt compelled to substitute maestro with maistre.

我認為，沒有人不得不用 maistre 代替 maestro。

I mean, we don't call women astronauts, astronettes, but as to the question of gender bias, I really have nothing to complain about, nor, for that matter, should Maren Alsop, Joanne Folletta, Laurence El-Kilbey, Natalie Stutzman.

我的意思是，我們不稱女太空人為 astronettes，但至於性別偏見問題，我真的沒什麼好抱怨的，瑪倫-阿爾索普、喬安妮-福萊塔、勞倫斯-基爾貝、娜塔莉-斯圖茨曼也不應該抱怨什麼。

There's so many incredible women who came before us, women who did the real lifting.

在我們之前，有那麼多令人難以置信的女性，她們才是真正的女性。

That's fascinating.

真是令人著迷。

Who, for instance?

比如說誰？

Okay.

好的

Sure.

當然。

First and foremost, Nadia Boulanger.

首先是納迪婭-布朗熱。

I mean, that would be the happy example.

我的意思是，這將是一個快樂的例子。

The sad one would be Antonia Brico, who, by all accounts, was an incredible conductor, but was ghettoized into the non-glamorous status of guest conductor, and essentially treated as a dog act.

安東尼婭-布里科（Antonia Brico）是一個可悲的人，從各方面來看，她都是一位出色的指揮家，但卻淪落為不光彩的客座指揮家，基本上被當成了狗腿子。

She never got the chance to lead a major orchestra.

她從未有機會上司大型交響樂團。

Yes.

是的。

Yes, she did conduct the Berlin Philharmonic, as well as the Met, but, again, only as a guest conductor.

是的，她確實指揮過柏林愛樂樂團和大都會歌劇院，但同樣只是作為客座指揮。

I mean, at that time, it was all gender spectacle, but fortunately, times change, and the Pauline conversion is, if not complete, then it's evolving nicely.

我的意思是，在那個時候，這都是性別的奇觀，但幸運的是，時代在變，保羅的轉變即使沒有完成，也在很好地發展。

No less, having fallen off its horse.

不亞於從馬上摔下來。

Liddy, could we talk a little bit about translation, because I think there are still people who think of the conductor as a kind of human metronome.

利迪，我們能不能談一下翻譯的問題，因為我覺得還是有人把指揮當成一種人體節拍器。

Well, that's partly true, but the end of keeping time, it's no small thing.

嗯，有一部分是對的，但計時的結束可不是一件小事。

But I suspect there's a lot more to it than that.

但我懷疑事情遠不止如此。

I would hope so, yes, but time is the thing.

我希望如此，是的，但時間是個問題。

Time is the essential piece of interpretation.

時間是詮釋的基本要素。

You cannot start without me.

沒有我，你無法開始。

I start the clock.

我開始計時。

My left hand shapes, but my right hand, the second hand, marks time and moves it forward.

我的左手負責造型，但我的右手，也就是秒針，負責標記時間並將其向前推進。

However, unlike a clock, sometimes my second hand stops, which means that time stops.

然而，與時鐘不同的是，有時我的秒針會停止，這意味著時間停止了。

Now, the illusion is that, like you, I'm responding to the orchestra in real time, making the decision about the right moment to restart the thing or reset it or throw time out the window altogether.

現在的假象是，我和你一樣，正在實時響應管弦樂團的演奏，決定在適當的時候重啟或重置，或者把時間完全拋到九霄雲外。

The reality is that right from the very beginning, I know precisely what time it is and the exact moment that you and I will arrive at our destination together.

現實是，從一開始，我就知道現在是幾點鐘，也知道你我到達目的地的確切時間。

The only real discovery for me is in rehearsal.

對我來說，唯一真正的發現是在排練中。

It's never in performance.

它從不在表演中出現。

Hard question, I know, but if you could define one thing that Bernstein gave you, what would it be?

我知道這個問題很難回答，但如果你能定義伯恩斯坦給你的一件事，那會是什麼？

Kavanaugh.

卡瓦諾

Yeah, it's the Hebrew word for attention to meaning or intent.

是的，這是希伯來語，意思是注意意義或意圖。

What are the composer's priorities and what are yours, and how do they complement one another?

作曲家的優先事項是什麼，你的優先事項是什麼，兩者如何互補？

Right, Kavanaugh.

對，卡瓦諾。

I think that's a word that will have slightly different meaning for many in our audience.

我想，這個詞對我們的許多聽眾來說，意義略有不同。

Well, yes.

嗯，是的。

Yes, I imagine so.

是的，我想是的。

Am I right in thinking that a conductor was not always an onstage presence in classical music?

我是否正確地認為，在古典音樂中，指揮並不總是站在舞臺上？

No, that's right.

不，沒錯。

I think I read someplace that it actually was the first violin for a long time.

我想我在某個地方讀到過，很長一段時間裡，它實際上是第一把小提琴。

Yes, the first violinist, whether they had any interest or skill in it or not.

是的，第一小提琴手，無論他們對小提琴是否有興趣，是否有技巧。

When did that change and who changed it?

什麼時候改變的？

With the French composer Jean-Baptiste Lully, who reportedly used a rather enormous, rather pointy staff to pound the tempi into the floor.

法國作曲家讓-巴蒂斯特-呂利（Jean-Baptiste Lully），據說他曾用一根相當巨大、相當尖的杖來敲擊地板上的節拍。

It's not something I imagine the player has particularly appreciated.

我想這並不是球員所特別欣賞的。

Anyway, that technique ended during a performance when Lully accidentally stabbed himself in the foot with the thing and died of gangrene.

總之，呂利在一次演出中不小心用這東西刺傷了自己的腳，結果死於壞疽，這門技藝也就此終結。

But anyway, the conductor really becomes essential as the ensembles get bigger.

但無論如何，隨著樂團規模的擴大，指揮真的變得至關重要。

Once again, we go back to Beethoven.

我們再次回到貝多芬。

Now, that doesn't start with the eighth note.

現在，這並不是從八分音符開始的。

The downbeat, it's silent.

低沉的旋律，悄無聲息。

So someone had to start that clock.

是以，必須有人來啟動那個時鐘。

Someone had to plant their flag in the sand and say, follow me.

必須有人把旗幟插在沙地上，然後說，跟我來。

And when that someone was Lenny, the orchestra was led on the most extraordinary tour of pleasures, because he knew the music, Mahler especially, as well or better than anyone.

而當這個人就是萊尼時，樂團就會在他的帶領下享受到最非凡的樂趣，因為他對音樂，尤其是馬勒的瞭解，不亞於任何人，甚至更勝一籌。

And he would often play with the form, because he wanted an orchestra to feel that they had never seen, let alone heard or performed any of that music.

他經常用這種形式演奏，因為他想讓管絃樂隊感到他們從未見過、更不用說聽過或演奏過這些音樂。

So he would do radical things, like disregarding the tempo primo or ending this phrase molto ritardando, even though it had no such marking.

是以，他會做出一些激進的舉動，比如不考慮速度優先（tempo primo），或者以 "molto ritardando "結束這個樂句，儘管這個樂句並沒有這樣的標記。

Was he over-egging it?

他是不是想太多了？

Oh, no, no, no, not at all.

哦，不，不，不，一點也不。

He celebrated the joy of his discovery.

他慶祝著自己發現的喜悅。

You told us a moment ago that your discovery takes place in rehearsal.

你剛才告訴我們，你的發現發生在排練中。

When will that process begin again for you?

對你來說，這個過程何時才能重新開始？

We start on Monday.

我們從星期一開始。