But Taiwan's international status is highly contested.

但臺灣的國際地位卻備受爭議。

It is claimed by Beijing, but it's never been part of the People's Republic of China.

北京聲稱擁有該領土，但它從未成為中華人民共和國的一部分。

Instead, over the last 20 years,

相反，在過去 20 年裡

Taiwan has evolved into a thriving democracy.

臺灣已發展成為一個繁榮的民主國家。

In 2016, people here chose their first female president, Tsai Ing-wen.

2016 年，這裡的人們選出了他們的第一位女總統蔡英文。

She rejects China's claims to Taiwan and has moved the island further towards Japan and the United States.

她拒絕接受中國對臺灣的主權要求，並將臺灣進一步推向日本和美國。

When I sat down with President Tsai at her home in Taipei,

當我與蔡總統在她位於臺北的家中坐下來時、

I began on that delicate topic, the threat from China, and whether it's increased under the leadership of Xi Jinping.

我首先談到了這個微妙的話題，即來自中國的威脅，以及在習近平的上司下，這種威脅是否有所加劇。

Do you fear Xi Jinping?

你害怕習近平嗎？

Do you think the world, the democratic world, should fear Xi Jinping and his ambitions?

您認為世界、民主世界應該害怕習近平和他的野心嗎？

I think Xi Jinping now dislike the fact that he may have a plan of some sort, but I don't think that is a definitive plan.

我認為習近平現在不喜歡這樣的事實，他可能有某種計劃，但我不認為那是一個確定的計劃。

Because the world is changing.

因為世界正在發生變化。

The situation in China is changing.

中國的情況正在發生變化。

But the world is very different now, especially after the Ukrainian war, because the democracy seems to be able to get together to form a meaningful deterrence whenever there is an invasion contemplated.

但是，現在的世界已經大不相同了，尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭之後，因為每當有人考慮入侵時，民主國家似乎都能團結起來，形成有意義的威懾。

So if we deal with the matter very carefully, there's still a great possibility for us to maintain peace as we all need.

是以，如果我們非常謹慎地處理這件事，我們仍然有很大的可能維護我們大家都需要的和平。

Tsai's predecessor, President Ma Ying-jeou, had tried to negotiate with China, even holding a meeting with President Xi Jinping in Singapore.

蔡英文的前任總統馬英九曾試圖與中國談判，甚至在新加坡與習近平主席舉行了會晤。

Tsai's strategy has been completely different.

蔡英文的策略則完全不同。

Instead of trying to conciliate China, she's built up Taiwan's own defences.

她沒有試圖與中國和解，而是加強了臺灣自身的防禦。

Nearly doubling spending, buying new fighter jets and developing Taiwan's first indigenous submarines.

將支出增加近一倍，購買新型戰鬥機，開發臺灣第一艘本土潛艇。

Today the Lion Dance is to celebrate the opening of a new special forces training base on the outskirts of Taipei, another tangible example of where this new military spending is going.

今天的舞獅活動是為了慶祝臺北郊區一個新的特種部隊訓練基地的啟用，這是新軍費開支去向的又一個具體例子。

So I guess for President Tsai, this is a sort of demonstration of what she's been trying to achieve in defence policy over the last eight years, because part of her big thing is that Taiwan doesn't spend enough on defence.

是以，我想對蔡英文總統來說，這是她過去八年來在防務政策上所做努力的一種展示，因為她的主要問題之一就是臺灣在防務上的投入不夠。

When she came in, it was about 2% of GDP.

她上任時，這一比例約為國內生產總值的 2%。

She's managed to push that up to about 2.5% of GDP.

她成功地將這一比例提高到了國內生產總值的 2.5%左右。

A lot of people say Taiwan needs to be spending north of 3% of its GDP to have an effective military, given the huge threat that it faces from China.

很多人說，鑑於臺灣面臨來自中國的巨大威脅，臺灣需要將其 GDP 的 3% 以上用於軍事開支，才能擁有一支有效的軍隊。

One of the things you've done very differently from your predecessor, he engaged in dialogue with China.

你所做的一件事與你的前任非常不同，他與中國進行了對話。

He was trying to get Taiwan into basically an economic partnership with China.

他試圖讓臺灣與中國建立基本的經濟夥伴關係。

You, when you came to power, decided on a very different course, it strikes me.

我覺得，您上臺後決定了一條截然不同的道路。

One of, firstly, building up Taiwan's own military strength.

其一，首先是加強臺灣自身的軍事力量。

I would say that the military capability of ours is much strengthened with the investments that we have put in in the last eight years.

我想說的是，隨著我們在過去八年中的投入，我們的軍事能力大大加強了。

And also with the assistance of our friends, primarily from the United States.

此外，我們還得到了主要來自美國的朋友的援助。

So the investment that we have put into the military capacity building is unprecedented, despite the fact that people are urging us to increase the budget further.

是以，儘管人們敦促我們進一步增加預算，但我們對軍事能力建設的投入是前所未有的。

I think if there's a need, we will always increase and expand our military spendings.

我認為，只要有需要，我們總會增加和擴大軍費開支。

But this is a time for us to use the money available efficiently and to build our capacity at a speed that can match with the expansion of the Chinese military capability.

但是，現在我們應該有效地利用現有的資金，並以與中國軍事能力擴張相匹配的速度建設我們的能力。

Today, the president is also meeting some young recruits.

今天，總統還會見了一些年輕的新兵。

Another major reform she's pushed through is a return to one year of compulsory military service.

她推動的另一項重大改革是恢復一年的義務兵役制。

She concedes it's not won her many supporters among young voters.

她承認，這並沒有為她在年輕選民中贏得多少支持者。

I was actually able to convince the public here that extension of the military service is something that we need to do and I get the support of the people here.

實際上，我能夠說服這裡的公眾，延長兵役是我們需要做的事情，我得到了這裡人民的支持。

And also the young people, despite they have some complaints, but it's not about their love for the country.

還有年輕人，儘管他們有一些抱怨，但這與他們對國家的熱愛無關。

They have love for the country, they have the dedication for the country, and they have no hesitation to serve in the military.

他們熱愛祖國，為國奉獻，義無反顧地投身軍營。

It's just that we have to make sure that their time spent in the military is worthwhile.

只是，我們必須確保他們在軍隊中度過的時光是值得的。

We are obligated to provide them with the best equipment, best training, and they know how to protect themselves as well as protect the country.

我們有義務為他們提供最好的裝備、最好的訓練，讓他們知道如何保護自己和保護國家。

President Tsai's political opponents call her military strategy naïve, even dangerous.

蔡英文總統的政治對手稱她的軍事戰略幼稚甚至危險。

They point to the vastly superior military forces China now has at its disposal, and they say trying to defeat these with Taiwan's much smaller forces is a fool's errand.

他們指出，中國現在擁有強大的軍事力量，他們說，試圖用臺灣小得多的力量擊敗中國是痴人說夢。

Taiwan is small.

臺灣很小。

It has a small population compared to China, and China's military is vast.

與中國相比，它的人口少，而中國的軍事力量龐大。

Its military modernization is extraordinary.

其軍事現代化程度非同一般。

And that in the end, this is what your critics would say, is Taiwan cannot hope by itself to deter China militarily.

最後，這就是你們的批評者會說的，臺灣不能指望自己在軍事上威懾中國。

Of course that makes some sense, but the cost of taking over Taiwan is going to be enormous.

這當然有一定道理，但接管臺灣的代價將是巨大的。

And Chinese leadership have to make a good calculation as to whether they are prepared to pay the cost.

中國領導層必須好好計算一下，他們是否準備付出代價。

But what we need to do is to increase the cost of an invasion.

但我們需要做的是提高入侵的成本。

So strengthening our military capability is one, and working with our friends in the region to form a collective deterrence is another.

是以，加強我們的軍事能力是其一，與我們在該地區的朋友合作形成集體威懾是其二。

I suppose, again, just playing devil's advocate here, your critics would say, well, that's all very well, but Taiwan has very few formal diplomatic allies.

我想，還是那句老話，你的批評者會說，這很好，但臺灣的正式外交盟友很少。

It doesn't have any formal military alliances.

它沒有任何正式的軍事聯盟。

And that during the last eight years, particularly the last four years, the situation around Taiwan has actually become objectively more threatening.

在過去八年中，尤其是最近四年，臺灣周邊的局勢客觀上變得更具威脅性。

Of course, we cannot exclude any possibility at the moment, including a possible military conflict and invasion from China.

當然，我們目前不能排除任何可能性，包括可能發生的軍事衝突和來自中國的入侵。

But the thing is, with the collective efforts of the parties concerned in the region,

但問題是，在該地區有關各方的共同努力下、

China actually feels the pressure, because it's not only military, it's a concern.

中國實際上感受到了壓力，因為這不僅是軍事上的，更是一種關切。

They have to be aware of the fact that a war may cost their economic development.

他們必須意識到，戰爭可能會使他們的經濟發展付出代價。

And the economic consequences is such that it may probably delay the development of China for years, even for decades.

其經濟後果可能會使中國的發展延後數年甚至數十年。

So if you are a leader of China, what is more important, taking over Taiwan or your continuing growth economically and socially?

那麼，如果您是中國的領導人，什麼更重要？是接管臺灣，還是繼續發展經濟和社會？

Absolutely crucial to Tsai's strategy of deterring China is support from America.

美國的支持對蔡英文威懾中國的戰略絕對至關重要。

For decades, the United States has kept China guessing as to whether they would or would not defend Taiwan if Beijing attacked.

幾十年來，美國一直讓中國猜測，如果北京進攻臺灣，他們是否會保衛臺灣。

But following the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

但在俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭之後

President Joe Biden has broken with that tradition, saying repeatedly he would send US troops to defend Taiwan.

喬-拜登總統打破了這一傳統，多次表示他將派遣美軍保衛臺灣。

Are you willing to get involved militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?

如果真的到了那一步，您是否願意捲入軍事行動，保衛臺灣？

Yes.

是的。

You are?

你是？

That's a commitment we made.

這是我們的承諾。

That's a commitment we made.

這是我們的承諾。

We are not—look, here's the situation.

我們不是--聽著，情況是這樣的。

We agree with a one-China policy.

我們贊同一箇中國的政策。

We signed onto it, and all the attendant agreements made from there.

我們簽署了該協議，並在此基礎上籤訂了所有附帶協議。

But the idea that it could be taken by force, just taken by force, is just not—is just not appropriate. It would dislocate the entire region and be another action similar to what happened in Ukraine.

但是，武力奪取的想法是不恰當的。這將使整個地區陷入混亂，成為又一次類似烏克蘭的行動。

President Biden has been extremely supportive of Taiwan.

拜登總統一直非常支持臺灣。

When asked about whether he would intervene if Taiwan were attacked, he has repeatedly said yes.

當被問及如果臺灣受到攻擊，他是否會進行干預時，他一再表示會。

His critics have said that that is moving America too far away from this idea of strategic ambiguity, and that actually that makes the situation for Taiwan more dangerous.

責備他的人說，這讓美國離戰略模糊的想法太遠了，實際上這讓臺灣的局勢更加危險。

I think the ambiguity is still there.

我認為模糊性仍然存在。

I think the US administration has been very careful in delivering the messages they want to deliver to the public.

我認為美國政府在向公眾傳遞信息時非常謹慎。

So as far as I am concerned, the way I read it is that the ambiguity is still there.

是以，就我而言，我的理解是，模糊性仍然存在。

The Chinese government sees things very differently.

中國政府的看法卻大相徑庭。

When the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, landed in Taipei in August 2022 to show her support for Tsai's government,

2022 年 8 月，美國眾議院議長南希-佩洛西（Nancy Pelosi）登陸臺北，以示對蔡英文政府的支持、

Beijing reacted with fury.

北京方面的反應非常憤怒。

In China's view, the United States had crossed a line.

在中國看來，美國已經越界。

Probably the most high-profile American visit during your presidency was that of the US House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

在您擔任總統期間，美國眾議院議長南希-佩洛西（Nancy Pelosi）可能是最引人注目的美國訪問。

It caused a big reaction from China.

這在中國引起了很大反響。

For the first time, China fired ballistic missiles over the top of Taiwan into the Pacific Ocean.

中國首次發射彈道導彈，越過臺灣上空，飛入太平洋。

So I wonder, from your point of view, what are the benefits of these sort of very high-profile visits?

是以，我想知道，從您的角度來看，這種非常高調的訪問有什麼好處？

We have been isolated for a long time.

長期以來，我們一直與世隔絕。

And we need friends.

我們需要朋友

And we need people to come and express their concerns for us.

我們需要人們來表達他們對我們的關切。

So for any president, you just can't say no to a visit like the Speaker Pelosi's.

是以，對於任何一位總統來說，都無法拒絕像佩洛西議長這樣的訪問。

But the thing is that, of course, there are risks associated with it.

但問題是，這樣做當然有風險。

So you have to manage the risks.

是以，你必須管理風險。

So there are a lot of communications and diplomacies, the detail of which I cannot tell you.

是以，有很多溝通和外交活動，具體細節我無法告訴你。

But there are a lot of work behind the scenes to make less of an impact on the cross-strait situation.

但是，為了減少對兩岸局勢的影響，我們在幕後做了很多工作。

How important is victory on the battlefield for Ukraine and continued Western support for Ukraine in terms of how it affects Taiwan?

烏克蘭戰場上的勝利和西方對烏克蘭的持續支持對臺灣的影響有多大？

Many people suggest that Taiwan is a much more important case than Ukraine, because we are indispensable in terms of global supply chain.

很多人認為，臺灣比烏克蘭重要得多，因為我們在全球供應鏈中不可或缺。

And our geographic location represents a great deal in terms of strategic values to the region as a whole.

我們的地理位置對整個地區具有重要的戰略價值。

So there are arguments that perhaps the U.S. should shift their support and resources from Ukraine to Taiwan.

是以有觀點認為，也許美國應該將其支持和資源從烏克蘭轉向臺灣。

We say, no, you have to support Ukraine until the very end, because the determination is the most important thing as far as we are concerned.

我們說，不，你們必須支持烏克蘭直到最後，因為就我們而言，決心才是最重要的。

And we don't want to take advantage of the Western countries deciding to reduce or eventually abandon Ukraine.

我們不想利用西方國家決定減少或最終放棄烏克蘭的機會。

No, that's not our position.

不，這不是我們的立場。

Our position is that the democracies should support Ukraine with all force and effect.

我們的立場是，民主國家應全力和有效地支持烏克蘭。

You mentioned Taiwan's position in the global supply chain.

您提到了臺灣在全球供應鏈中的地位。

Do you think there's now a much wider recognition of just how important?

你認為現在是否有更多的人認識到了這一點的重要性？

We're talking here, of course, we're talking about semiconductors, right?

當然，我們現在談論的是半導體，對嗎？

We're talking about Taiwan semiconductors and other big Taiwanese companies.

我們說的是臺灣半導體和其他臺灣大公司。

Do you think people around the world understand how vital Taiwan's position is?

您認為全世界的人都瞭解臺灣的地位有多重要嗎？

Let me put it this way.

讓我這樣說吧。

Ninety percent of the advanced chips are produced in Taiwan.

90% 的先進芯片在臺灣生產。

And for the future technology like AI, Taiwan holds the key.

對於人工智能等未來技術而言，臺灣是關鍵所在。

So that itself is important enough for the rest of the world.

是以，對世界其他地方來說，這本身就足夠重要了。

President Tsai has had to deal with her share of disasters, the latest a huge earthquake which hit the island last month, bringing down buildings and unleashing landslides along the mountainous east coast.

蔡英文總統曾經歷過多次災難，最近一次是上個月發生在該島的大地震，地震造成建築物倒塌，並引發了東海岸山區的山體滑坡。

A week after the quake, I flew with the president as she visited the hardest hit areas.

地震發生一週後，我隨總統乘飛機訪問了重災區。

So we're on board President Tsai's aircraft right now, heading from Taipei to Hualien, where there was a huge earthquake last week.

我們現在正搭乘蔡英文總統的專機，從臺北飛往花蓮，上週那裡發生了大地震。

And she's just getting a briefing about the situation there and about what she's going to see.

她正在聽取有關那裡局勢和她將看到的情況的介紹。

Last time Taiwan was hit by a quake of this size, hundreds of buildings collapsed and more than 2,000 people were killed.

上一次臺灣遭受如此規模的地震襲擊時，數百棟建築物倒塌，2000 多人喪生。

This time, the death toll was less than 20.

這一次，死亡人數不到 20 人。

We learned the lesson, of course, the earthquake in Nantou, 25 years ago, had major damage to the region.

當然，我們吸取了教訓，25 年前的南投地震給該地區造成了重大損失。

And it was devastating.

這是毀滅性的。

And people were actually shocked.

事實上，人們對此感到震驚。

And we realized that we had to do something about it, because this is a place where there's no shortage of natural disaster.

我們意識到，我們必須做點什麼，因為這裡不乏自然災害。

The other crisis Tsai's government had to face was COVID-19.

蔡英文政府不得不面對的另一場危機是 COVID-19。

Back in 2003, the island had been hit by SARS.

2003 年，該島遭受了非典的襲擊。

This time, they moved fast to close the borders.

這一次，他們迅速行動，關閉了邊界。

And the result was in the first year of COVID-19, just seven people died of the disease in Taiwan.

結果，在 COVID-19 的第一年，臺灣僅有 7 人死於這種疾病。

One thing that's very noticeable, although you didn't have any lockdowns domestically, you did close your borders very quickly.

有一點非常明顯，雖然你們在國內沒有采取任何封鎖措施，但你們確實很快就關閉了邊境。

Was that key?

這是關鍵嗎？

That is one of the keys, because of the SARS experience.

這是關鍵之一，因為有了 SARS 的經驗。

And the source of the disease back then was from China.

而當時的病源來自中國。

And this time, our suspicion is that it is also from China.

而這一次，我們懷疑它也來自中國。

So we made a very quick decision and then stopped the Chinese tourist groups coming into Taiwan.

是以，我們當機立斷，阻止了中國旅遊團進入臺灣。

And that was a time very close to the Lunar New Year.

那段時間非常接近農曆新年。

We made the decision and it was quick and early enough.

我們很快就做出了決定，而且足夠早。

President Tsai is a famous dog and cat lover.

蔡英文總統是有名的貓狗愛好者。

She takes me to meet her four dogs and two cats.

她帶我去見她的四條狗和兩隻貓。

She is a retired rescue dog.

它是一隻退役的救助犬。

She's now 12 years old.

她現在已經 12 歲了。

The president is also something of an anglophile, having spent the early 1980s studying for a PhD in law at the London School of Economics, just when Britain had elected its first female prime minister, Margaret Thatcher.

總統也是一位 "英國迷"，20 世紀 80 年代初，他曾在倫敦經濟學院攻讀法學博士，當時英國剛剛選出第一位女首相瑪格麗特-撒切爾（Margaret Thatcher）。

I looked at the dates.

我看了看日期。

In the UK, you did your PhD in 1984.

在英國，您於 1984 年獲得博士學位。

It was the Thatcher era.

那是撒切爾時代。

And I just wonder, did you register that when you were in the UK, that this was Britain's first female prime minister?

我只是想知道，你在英國時是否知道這是英國第一位女首相？

And that she, I mean, even if you didn't like her...

而她，我的意思是，即使你不喜歡她...

She is a very determined lady.

她是一位非常果斷的女士。

I have a lot of admiration for her, despite the fact that I may not be in agreement with all her policies.

儘管我可能並不贊同她的所有政策，但我非常欽佩她。

But as a leader, she's a tough one.

但作為領導者，她是個難纏的人。

One thing that comes across very clearly from spending time with President Tsai is that in spite of it looking very much like China, with a similar language, customs and religious beliefs, she sees Taiwan as a different, separate place with its own unique history.

在與蔡英文總統的相處中，有一點非常明顯，那就是儘管臺灣看起來非常像中國，有著相似的語言、習俗和宗教信仰，但她認為臺灣是一個不同的、獨立的地方，有著自己獨特的歷史。

It was first colonised by the Dutch, the Spanish, and later the Japanese and Chinese.

荷蘭人、西班牙人、日本人和中國人先後在此殖民。

So it's all left a legacy here that makes it very different.

是以，這一切在這裡留下的遺產讓這裡變得與眾不同。

Yes. So we have very diverse culture here.

是的，所以我們這裡的文化非常多元。

People influence Taiwan at different times and move to Taiwan and stay here at different times.

人們在不同時期影響臺灣，在不同時期移居臺灣，在不同時期留在臺灣。

So it's a very interesting place.

是以，這是一個非常有趣的地方。

This is still a very patriarchal society.

這仍然是一個非常重男輕女的社會。

You, I know, have appointed many women to high positions in government.

我知道，您任命了許多女性擔任政府要職。

You appointed the first transgender cabinet minister in Taiwan's history, maybe in Asia's history, I'm not sure.

您任命了臺灣歷史上，也許是亞洲歷史上第一位變性內閣部長，我不確定。

Do you think there's an enduring legacy there that will last?

你認為那裡會有持久的遺產嗎？

Or is there a danger Taiwan could revert to what I might call the boys' club once you're gone?

還是說一旦你走了，臺灣就有可能重新回到我所說的男孩俱樂部？

I have a lot of objection about that boys' club that you use.

我非常反對你所說的男孩俱樂部。

People thought it was some sort of unusual happening in Taiwan.

人們還以為是臺灣發生了什麼不尋常的事情。

But I want to say that the Taiwan society and democracy nowadays are mature enough to produce and accept a woman president.

但我想說的是，如今的臺灣社會和民主制度已經足夠成熟，足以產生和接受一位女總統。

And that is a tremendous achievement of the Taiwan society.

這是臺灣社會的巨大成就。

People came to Taiwan at different times.

人們在不同時期來到臺灣。

And we also have the indigenous people here.

我們這裡還有原住民。

So in an immigration society, there are a lot of challenges.

是以，在移民社會中，存在著許多挑戰。

And people are less bound by the tradition.

人們也不再受傳統的束縛。

So you're saying basically that means Taiwan is a more open-minded society than, for example, China is?