Name: BBC專訪：蔡英文即將卸任 回顧執政八年成就及挑戰 - BBC News 中文 (BBC專訪：蔡英文即將卸任 回顧執政八年成就及挑戰 － BBC News 中文)
Uploaded: 2024-11-10T02:49:01.000Z
Duration: 23 min 2 s

This is Taipei, capital of Taiwan, an island democracy of 23 million people.

這裡是臺北，臺灣的首府，一個擁有 2300 萬人口的民主島國。

程度副詞

But Taiwan's international status is highly contested.

但臺灣的國際地位卻備受爭議。

基礎被動語態

It is claimed by Beijing, but it's never been part of the People's Republic of China.

北京聲稱擁有該領土，但它從未成為中華人民共和國的一部分。

Taiwan has evolved into a thriving democracy.

臺灣已發展成為一個繁榮的民主國家。

In 2016, people here chose their first female president, Tsai Ing-wen.

2016 年，這裡的人們選出了他們的第一位女總統蔡英文。

She rejects China's claims to Taiwan and has moved the island further towards Japan and the United States.

她拒絕接受中國對臺灣的主權要求，並將臺灣進一步推向日本和美國。

When I sat down with President Tsai at her home in Taipei,

當我與蔡總統在她位於臺北的家中坐下來時、

I began on that delicate topic, the threat from China, and whether it's increased under the leadership of Xi Jinping.

我首先談到了這個微妙的話題，即來自中國的威脅，以及在習近平的上司下，這種威脅是否有所加劇。

Do you think the world, the democratic world, should fear Xi Jinping and his ambitions?

您認為世界、民主世界應該害怕習近平和他的野心嗎？

I think Xi Jinping now dislike the fact that he may have a plan of some sort, but I don't think that is a definitive plan.

我認為習近平現在不喜歡這樣的事實，他可能有某種計劃，但我不認為那是一個確定的計劃。

But the world is very different now, especially after the Ukrainian war, because the democracy seems to be able to get together to form a meaningful deterrence whenever there is an invasion contemplated.

但是，現在的世界已經大不相同了，尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭之後，因為每當有人考慮入侵時，民主國家似乎都能團結起來，形成有意義的威懾。

So if we deal with the matter very carefully, there's still a great possibility for us to maintain peace as we all need.

是以，如果我們非常謹慎地處理這件事，我們仍然有很大的可能維護我們大家都需要的和平。

Tsai's predecessor, President Ma Ying-jeou, had tried to negotiate with China, even holding a meeting with President Xi Jinping in Singapore.

蔡英文的前任總統馬英九曾試圖與中國談判，甚至在新加坡與習近平主席舉行了會晤。

Tsai's strategy has been completely different.

Instead of trying to conciliate China, she's built up Taiwan's own defences.

她沒有試圖與中國和解，而是加強了臺灣自身的防禦。

Nearly doubling spending, buying new fighter jets and developing Taiwan's first indigenous submarines.

將支出增加近一倍，購買新型戰鬥機，開發臺灣第一艘本土潛艇。

Today the Lion Dance is to celebrate the opening of a new special forces training base on the outskirts of Taipei, another tangible example of where this new military spending is going.

今天的舞獅活動是為了慶祝臺北郊區一個新的特種部隊訓練基地的啟用，這是新軍費開支去向的又一個具體例子。

So I guess for President Tsai, this is a sort of demonstration of what she's been trying to achieve in defence policy over the last eight years, because part of her big thing is that Taiwan doesn't spend enough on defence.

是以，我想對蔡英文總統來說，這是她過去八年來在防務政策上所做努力的一種展示，因為她的主要問題之一就是臺灣在防務上的投入不夠。

When she came in, it was about 2% of GDP.

她上任時，這一比例約為國內生產總值的 2%。

She's managed to push that up to about 2.5% of GDP.

她成功地將這一比例提高到了國內生產總值的 2.5%左右。

A lot of people say Taiwan needs to be spending north of 3% of its GDP to have an effective military, given the huge threat that it faces from China.

很多人說，鑑於臺灣面臨來自中國的巨大威脅，臺灣需要將其 GDP 的 3% 以上用於軍事開支，才能擁有一支有效的軍隊。

One of the things you've done very differently from your predecessor, he engaged in dialogue with China.

你所做的一件事與你的前任非常不同，他與中國進行了對話。

He was trying to get Taiwan into basically an economic partnership with China.

他試圖讓臺灣與中國建立基本的經濟夥伴關係。

You, when you came to power, decided on a very different course, it strikes me.

我覺得，您上臺後決定了一條截然不同的道路。

One of, firstly, building up Taiwan's own military strength.

其一，首先是加強臺灣自身的軍事力量。

I would say that the military capability of ours is much strengthened with the investments that we have put in in the last eight years.

我想說的是，隨著我們在過去八年中的投入，我們的軍事能力大大加強了。

And also with the assistance of our friends, primarily from the United States.

此外，我們還得到了主要來自美國的朋友的援助。

So the investment that we have put into the military capacity building is unprecedented, despite the fact that people are urging us to increase the budget further.

是以，儘管人們敦促我們進一步增加預算，但我們對軍事能力建設的投入是前所未有的。

I think if there's a need, we will always increase and expand our military spendings.

我認為，只要有需要，我們總會增加和擴大軍費開支。

But this is a time for us to use the money available efficiently and to build our capacity at a speed that can match with the expansion of the Chinese military capability.

但是，現在我們應該有效地利用現有的資金，並以與中國軍事能力擴張相匹配的速度建設我們的能力。

Today, the president is also meeting some young recruits.

今天，總統還會見了一些年輕的新兵。

Another major reform she's pushed through is a return to one year of compulsory military service.

她推動的另一項重大改革是恢復一年的義務兵役制。

She concedes it's not won her many supporters among young voters.

她承認，這並沒有為她在年輕選民中贏得多少支持者。

I was actually able to convince the public here that extension of the military service is something that we need to do and I get the support of the people here.

實際上，我能夠說服這裡的公眾，延長兵役是我們需要做的事情，我得到了這裡人民的支持。

And also the young people, despite they have some complaints, but it's not about their love for the country.

還有年輕人，儘管他們有一些抱怨，但這與他們對國家的熱愛無關。

They have love for the country, they have the dedication for the country, and they have no hesitation to serve in the military.

他們熱愛祖國，為國奉獻，義無反顧地投身軍營。

It's just that we have to make sure that their time spent in the military is worthwhile.

只是，我們必須確保他們在軍隊中度過的時光是值得的。

We are obligated to provide them with the best equipment, best training, and they know how to protect themselves as well as protect the country.

我們有義務為他們提供最好的裝備、最好的訓練，讓他們知道如何保護自己和保護國家。

President Tsai's political opponents call her military strategy naïve, even dangerous.

蔡英文總統的政治對手稱她的軍事戰略幼稚甚至危險。

They point to the vastly superior military forces China now has at its disposal, and they say trying to defeat these with Taiwan's much smaller forces is a fool's errand.

他們指出，中國現在擁有強大的軍事力量，他們說，試圖用臺灣小得多的力量擊敗中國是痴人說夢。

It has a small population compared to China, and China's military is vast.

與中國相比，它的人口少，而中國的軍事力量龐大。

Its military modernization is extraordinary.

And that in the end, this is what your critics would say, is Taiwan cannot hope by itself to deter China militarily.

最後，這就是你們的批評者會說的，臺灣不能指望自己在軍事上威懾中國。

Of course that makes some sense, but the cost of taking over Taiwan is going to be enormous.

這當然有一定道理，但接管臺灣的代價將是巨大的。

And Chinese leadership have to make a good calculation as to whether they are prepared to pay the cost.

中國領導層必須好好計算一下，他們是否準備付出代價。

But what we need to do is to increase the cost of an invasion.

但我們需要做的是提高入侵的成本。

So strengthening our military capability is one, and working with our friends in the region to form a collective deterrence is another.

是以，加強我們的軍事能力是其一，與我們在該地區的朋友合作形成集體威懾是其二。

I suppose, again, just playing devil's advocate here, your critics would say, well, that's all very well, but Taiwan has very few formal diplomatic allies.

我想，還是那句老話，你的批評者會說，這很好，但臺灣的正式外交盟友很少。

It doesn't have any formal military alliances.

And that during the last eight years, particularly the last four years, the situation around Taiwan has actually become objectively more threatening.

在過去八年中，尤其是最近四年，臺灣周邊的局勢客觀上變得更具威脅性。

Of course, we cannot exclude any possibility at the moment, including a possible military conflict and invasion from China.

當然，我們目前不能排除任何可能性，包括可能發生的軍事衝突和來自中國的入侵。

But the thing is, with the collective efforts of the parties concerned in the region,

但問題是，在該地區有關各方的共同努力下、

China actually feels the pressure, because it's not only military, it's a concern.

中國實際上感受到了壓力，因為這不僅是軍事上的，更是一種關切。

They have to be aware of the fact that a war may cost their economic development.

他們必須意識到，戰爭可能會使他們的經濟發展付出代價。

And the economic consequences is such that it may probably delay the development of China for years, even for decades.

其經濟後果可能會使中國的發展延後數年甚至數十年。

So if you are a leader of China, what is more important, taking over Taiwan or your continuing growth economically and socially?

那麼，如果您是中國的領導人，什麼更重要？是接管臺灣，還是繼續發展經濟和社會？

Absolutely crucial to Tsai's strategy of deterring China is support from America.

美國的支持對蔡英文威懾中國的戰略絕對至關重要。

For decades, the United States has kept China guessing as to whether they would or would not defend Taiwan if Beijing attacked.

幾十年來，美國一直讓中國猜測，如果北京進攻臺灣，他們是否會保衛臺灣。

But following the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

President Joe Biden has broken with that tradition, saying repeatedly he would send US troops to defend Taiwan.

喬-拜登總統打破了這一傳統，多次表示他將派遣美軍保衛臺灣。

Are you willing to get involved militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?

如果真的到了那一步，您是否願意捲入軍事行動，保衛臺灣？

我們不是--聽著，情況是這樣的。

We signed onto it, and all the attendant agreements made from there.

我們簽署了該協議，並在此基礎上籤訂了所有附帶協議。

But the idea that it could be taken by force, just taken by force, is just not—is just not appropriate. It would dislocate the entire region and be another action similar to what happened in Ukraine.

但是，武力奪取的想法是不恰當的。這將使整個地區陷入混亂，成為又一次類似烏克蘭的行動。

President Biden has been extremely supportive of Taiwan.

When asked about whether he would intervene if Taiwan were attacked, he has repeatedly said yes.

當被問及如果臺灣受到攻擊，他是否會進行干預時，他一再表示會。

His critics have said that that is moving America too far away from this idea of strategic ambiguity, and that actually that makes the situation for Taiwan more dangerous.

責備他的人說，這讓美國離戰略模糊的想法太遠了，實際上這讓臺灣的局勢更加危險。

I think the US administration has been very careful in delivering the messages they want to deliver to the public.

我認為美國政府在向公眾傳遞信息時非常謹慎。

So as far as I am concerned, the way I read it is that the ambiguity is still there.

是以，就我而言，我的理解是，模糊性仍然存在。

The Chinese government sees things very differently.

When the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, landed in Taipei in August 2022 to show her support for Tsai's government,

2022 年 8 月，美國眾議院議長南希-佩洛西（Nancy Pelosi）登陸臺北，以示對蔡英文政府的支持、

In China's view, the United States had crossed a line.

Probably the most high-profile American visit during your presidency was that of the US House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi.

在您擔任總統期間，美國眾議院議長南希-佩洛西（Nancy Pelosi）可能是最引人注目的美國訪問。

For the first time, China fired ballistic missiles over the top of Taiwan into the Pacific Ocean.

中國首次發射彈道導彈，越過臺灣上空，飛入太平洋。

So I wonder, from your point of view, what are the benefits of these sort of very high-profile visits?

是以，我想知道，從您的角度來看，這種非常高調的訪問有什麼好處？

長期以來，我們一直與世隔絕。

And we need people to come and express their concerns for us.

我們需要人們來表達他們對我們的關切。

So for any president, you just can't say no to a visit like the Speaker Pelosi's.

是以，對於任何一位總統來說，都無法拒絕像佩洛西議長這樣的訪問。

But the thing is that, of course, there are risks associated with it.

但問題是，這樣做當然有風險。

So there are a lot of communications and diplomacies, the detail of which I cannot tell you.

是以，有很多溝通和外交活動，具體細節我無法告訴你。

But there are a lot of work behind the scenes to make less of an impact on the cross-strait situation.

但是，為了減少對兩岸局勢的影響，我們在幕後做了很多工作。

How important is victory on the battlefield for Ukraine and continued Western support for Ukraine in terms of how it affects Taiwan?

烏克蘭戰場上的勝利和西方對烏克蘭的持續支持對臺灣的影響有多大？

Many people suggest that Taiwan is a much more important case than Ukraine, because we are indispensable in terms of global supply chain.

很多人認為，臺灣比烏克蘭重要得多，因為我們在全球供應鏈中不可或缺。

And our geographic location represents a great deal in terms of strategic values to the region as a whole.

我們的地理位置對整個地區具有重要的戰略價值。

So there are arguments that perhaps the U.S. should shift their support and resources from Ukraine to Taiwan.

是以有觀點認為，也許美國應該將其支持和資源從烏克蘭轉向臺灣。

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