I would like to start today's episode by sharing a selection of some of the, let's say, more critical reviews the podcast has received over the past year. I tuned in to listen to the episode with Dr. Mary Frances O'Connor. Dr. O'Connor was brilliant, but Forrest, not so much. Out of his depth to the point that I felt secondhand embarrassment. Great interview with Gabor Maté. He is a gift to us all. I was a little nervous Forrest would talk too much, but he was pretty quiet on this one. All was going well, discussing abundance and scarcity mindset, until they turned against capitalism. What is this podcast if not a capitalist endeavor? I'm sick of being lectured by hypocrites. And then finally, I really enjoyed this one. This would be a lot better if Forrest relaxed a lot and stopped croaking into the back of his throat. He also laughs throatily and it makes him sound fake. Otherwise,

在今天的節目開始之前，我想和大家分享一下播客在過去一年中收到的一些批評性評論。我收聽了瑪麗-弗朗西斯-奧康納博士的節目。奧康納博士非常出色，但福雷斯特就差強人意了。他的深度超出了我的理解範圍，讓我感到尷尬。對加博爾-馬泰的採訪很棒。他是我們所有人的禮物。我有點擔心福雷斯特會說太多，但他這次卻很安靜。本來一切都很順利，討論的是富足和匱乏的心態，直到他們轉而反對資本主義。這個播客不是資本主義的努力是什麼？我受夠了被偽君子說教。最後，我非常喜歡這個節目。如果福雷斯特能放鬆一些，別再對著喉嚨呱呱叫，效果會更好。他

I love Dr. Rick Hansen's wise and steady demeanor.

我喜歡裡克-漢森博士的睿智和穩重。

Now, criticism is an unavoidable part of life. Sometimes it's overt, like in these reviews, and sometimes it comes in more subtle forms, like advice giving or comparing ourselves negatively to other people. Sometimes we can take it with some good grace and are able to accept the useful parts of it without too much discomfort, like, you know, apparently

現在，責備是生活中不可避免的一部分。有時它是公開的，比如在這些評論中，有時它以更微妙的形式出現，比如給別人提建議，或者把自己和別人做負面比較。有時，我們可以優雅地接受它，並且能夠接受其中有用的部分，而不會有太多的不適，比如，你知道，顯然

I should work with a vocal coach, and other times it really stings. And then, a lot of the time, most of the time, there's probably a little bit of both. But even though we're all going to be criticized from time to time, many of us spend a lot of our lives living in fear of criticism. Speaking personally, my behavior is totally influenced by wanting to avoid criticism. And then on the flip side, we're all critics ourselves. We've all been in situations that aren't quite the way that we want them to be, so we either need to do something to change them or accept them as they are. And that's what we're going to be focusing on today. On the one hand, how to take criticism well, receiving the useful parts without feeling a lot of the bonus pain. And then, on the other, learning to avoid chronic complaining and learning to accept things when they're not quite the way we'd like them to be. So to help us do that, I'm joined by the impeccable, not back-of-throat talking Dr. Rick Hansen. Rick is a clinical psychologist, he's a bestselling author, and he's also my dad. So, Dad, how are you doing today?

我應該和聲樂教練一起工作，而其他時候它真的很刺耳。很多時候，大多數時候，可能兩者都有一點。儘管我們都會時不時地受到責備，但我們中的很多人一生都生活在對責備的恐懼之中。就我個人而言，我的行為完全受避免責備的影響。反過來說，我們自己也是批評者。我們都曾遇到過不盡如人意的情況，所以我們要麼需要做些什麼來改變它們，要麼接受它們的現狀。這就是我們今天要討論的重點。一方面，如何很好地接受批評，接受有用的部分，而不感到很多額外的痛苦。另一方面，學會避免長期抱怨，學會在事情不如意時接受它。是以，為了幫助我們做到這一點，我

Oh, man, I'm already stirred up on your behalf. Like, wait a minute here. I'm a walking demonstration right now of not necessarily good ways to react to criticism, just in that. But still, that said, if somebody were to say to you on the street, hey, your head is made of green cheese and you were to say, well, actually, no, it's not. Then they would say, well, you're being defensive. And then you might say, I'm not being defensive. I'm just saying my head's not made of green cheese. And then they would say, now you're being defensive about being defensive. So it can become kind of circular here, right?

哦，老兄，我已經為你激動不已了。等一下我現在就是一個活生生的例子，告訴你對責備不一定有好的反應，就這一點。但話雖如此，如果有人在街上對你說 你的頭是綠奶酪做的 而你說，其實不是他們就會說，你這是在辯解。然後你可能會說，我沒有辯解。我只是說我的腦袋不是綠奶酪做的。然後他們就會說，現在你是在為自己的辯解而辯解。所以這可能會成為一種循環，對嗎？

Oh, totally. So what is the sweet spot where we receive the input? And I'm, myself, actually, on reflection, very aware in these podcast conversations with you of multiple things I either did poorly or could do better.

哦，完全正確。那麼，我們接收輸入的甜蜜點在哪裡？我自己反思了一下，在與你們的播客對話中，我非常清楚自己有很多地方做得不好，或者可以做得更好。

Same. Totally. Every time. Yeah. And I would like to state for the record that the enormous and overwhelming majority of the reviews and comments we get on the podcast are positive.

一樣。完全一樣每次都一樣是啊 Yeah.我想鄭重聲明 絕大多數對我們播客的評論 都是正面的

And I had to kind of go out of my way to dive into the reviews to find those. And also,

為了找到這些評論，我不得不不遺餘力地潛心研究。還有

I think it illustrates a really key point here that we're probably going to talk about a little bit more today, which is that so much of life is about what you choose to focus on, right? It often really pops out to me when we get a negative review, when somebody leaves a one-star review and they complain about some aspect of what we're doing. And

我認為這說明了一個非常關鍵的問題，我們今天可能還要再討論一下，那就是生活中的很多事情都與你選擇關注什麼有關，對嗎？當我們收到負面評論時，當有人留下一星評論並抱怨我們正在做的某些方面時，我經常會突然想到這一點。還有

I go, oh my God, I can feel the sting of that. And then we get so many five-star reviews that just kind of blend into the background for me. And you don't really pay attention to them because they're not rocking the boat of my experience in the same way. I appreciate them. I don't want to act like I don't appreciate them. I really do. People say some incredibly touching things about the show. But it's really easy for them to just slip right through my mental sieve without me really paying a lot of attention to it. One of the things that I've been really conscious of in my own life recently is paying attention to where

天哪，我能感覺到那刺痛。然後我們得到了很多五星級的評論，對我來說，這些評論只是一種融入背景的評論。你不會真的去關注它們，因為它們不會以同樣的方式撼動我的體驗。我很欣賞它們。我不想表現得不感激他們。我真的很感激他們。人們對節目的評價非常感人但這些話很容易就從我的心理篩子裡溜走，而我卻沒怎麼在意。最近，我在自己的生活中非常注意的一件事就是關注

I am placing my attention and being a lot more thoughtful about focusing on the elements of my experience that are more positive and taking in the good, of course, as you like to say, and to really be wearing what I've started calling the mood of complaint, which is just our tendency sometimes to fall into these cycles where just everything is not quite right. I am really looking forward to this exploration, right? Because we can fall into trouble either way. On the one hand, we can be reactive to criticism. And second, we can be critical ourselves. For me, it's been a real journey initially to claim my voice to be able to critique the things that weren't so good. Because when I was a kid, we were really muzzled. My parents had a monopoly on anger, and I was really scared of sticking my neck out. It took a long time for me to be the proverbial kid at the parade saying, the emperor's wearing boxer shorts with polka dots, or Oliver Twist walking up to the table and saying, please, may I have another bowl of oatmeal? That took me a while to do, but then I began to really have to pay attention to being overly critical and also paying attention to the ways that the content of the correction—let's just think of it in terms of the distinction between what could be and what is, what realistically could be and what is, between standard and actual, let's say, goal and actual—whatever that information might be, because that's what that is, that's information, wrapped around it can be a lot of topspin, including topspin that's just conferred by your privilege in where you stand in society. So as a male, older, professional person, I can offer a piece of information about a gap between what is and what actually could be with good intentions, and yet it can really sting. Because in ways

我把我的注意力集中在我的經歷中那些更積極的元素上，當然，就像你喜歡說的那樣，吸收好的東西，並且真正戴上我開始稱之為 "抱怨的心情 "的東西，這只是我們有時陷入這些循環的傾向，一切都不太對勁。我真的很期待這次探索，對嗎？因為我們可能會陷入困境。一方面，我們會對責備做出反應。其次，我們自己也會責備自己。對我來說，最初要發出自己的聲音，能夠責備那些不太好的東西，是一段真正的旅程。因為當我還是個孩子的時候，我們真的被矇在鼓裡。我的父母壟斷了我的憤怒，我真的很害怕把我的脖子伸出去。我花了很長時間才成為遊行隊伍中的那

I'm not entirely aware of, it can have an impact, understandably, way out of proportion to what I actually intended. And yet, if we also bring in the dimension for us of criticizing ourselves, there is no way to get through this life without screwing up, including in ways that you regret every single day and in ways that fill you with pain and remorse whenever you think about them. But that's simply part of the stew of life. Call it the hot pepper in the stew of life. There's just no way around it, and it burns every time you taste it. And you got to accept that and not be too hard on yourself about that.

如果我沒有完全意識到，它可能會產生影響，可以理解的是，這種影響與我的本意是不成比例的。然而，如果我們把責備自己也納入我們自己的維度，那麼我們這一生就不可能不搞砸，包括那些你每天都後悔的事情，以及那些每當你想起就充滿痛苦和悔恨的事情。但這只是生活的一部分。就像生活中的辣椒一樣。這是沒有辦法的事，每次品嚐都會讓你火冒三丈。你必須接受這一點，不要對自己太苛刻。

And for me, really look down deeply. Do you have basically good intentions? Do you act in basically good faith? Have you learned from screwing up? That's really important.

對我來說，真的要深深地往下看。你基本上是出於好意嗎？你的行為基本上是善意的嗎？你是否從失敗中吸取了教訓？這一點非常重要。

Are you still doing it? Or have you learned from doing it? And can you go forward?

你還在這樣做嗎？還是已經從中吸取了教訓？你能繼續前進嗎？

Totally. And I think that inside of that, it's useful to separate out different kinds of complaints. And people often break complaint into two big categories. The first one are called instrumental complaints. And these are constructive complaints. They're complaints that somebody could actually do something about. And then the second category are expressive complaints. And they're called expressive because they're about expressing your feelings.

完全正確。我認為，在這種情況下，將不同類型的投訴區分開來是非常有用的。人們通常將投訴分為兩大類。第一類是工具性投訴。這些是建設性的投訴。它們是有人能真正做些什麼的投訴。第二類是表達性投訴。它們之所以被稱為表達性投訴，是因為它們是關於表達你的感受的。

And they often include relatively little chance of somebody doing something. They're not fundamentally about problem solving. And I think that there's actually really a place for both of these forms of complaint. It's really easy to look at instrumental complaints as good complaints and expressive complaints as bad complaints. But I think that that's probably a little overly simplistic. But it is helpful for us to just take a look at the reality that a lot of the time when we're complaining, we're doing it for a reason other than actually trying to change our circumstances. And there's a place there for really taking a look at that and going, wow, is that really what we want to do?

而且，它們往往包含著相對較小的機會，讓人有所作為。從根本上說，它們與解決問題無關。我認為，這兩種形式的投訴其實都有用武之地。我們很容易把工具性投訴看作是好的投訴，而把表達性投訴看作是壞的投訴。但我認為這可能有點過於簡單化了。但是，讓我們看一看這樣一個現實：很多時候，當我們抱怨的時候，我們這樣做的原因並不是真的想改變我們的處境，這對我們是有幫助的。在這裡，我們可以真正地看一看，然後說，哇，這真的是我們想要做的嗎？

When I look back on my own history, some things that I've started to highlight for some time now around how to offer feedback or how to express wants, including wanting something to stop happening or something to start happening that there's been some real stakes on the table for. That's a real important thing. As soon as I start getting worked up and then we're in trouble, right? Or I start getting identified with my complaint, my criticism, or righteous about it. I start adding a mass to it, developing a case around it. And then

當我回顧自己的歷史時，一段時間以來，我開始強調如何提供反饋或如何表達自己的願望，包括希望某件事情停止發生，或希望某件事情開始發生，這其中有一些真正的利害關係。這一點非常重要。一旦我開始激動起來，我們就有麻煩了，對嗎？或者我開始認同我的抱怨、責備，或者義正詞嚴。我開始給它添油加醋，圍繞它展開論證。然後

I know I'm in trouble. Moving into a stance of feeling outraged about something that really does not deserve outrage. I think some things do deserve outrage, right? But I can't believe that yet again, you left your plate in the sink. After all I've done for you, you still leave your damn plate in the sink, right? Like, no, that just doesn't deserve that kind of almost like flip switching. And I can feel it coming over me. It's like a bad version of Braveheart in the movie of just this total warrior around something that's just way out of proportion to what the real issue is on the table. So markers, whatever those internal red lights are on your inner dashboard that let you know that you're getting in trouble about something that's really good to pay attention to. Last one I'll just say is accelerating, starting to speed up, making points rat-tat-tat-tat-tat, or getting more intense with gestures, accelerating in body movements. That also is kind of a giveaway. Accelerating and contracting are both giveaways of maybe you're getting into some trouble territory here that is wrapping around the useful information you're trying to convey or the experience you're trying to share. But it's going to get you in trouble. You don't need to add all that to it. Anyway, that's been something that I've been really trying to learn about.

我知道我有麻煩了。我開始對一些根本不值得憤怒的事情感到憤怒。我覺得有些事情確實值得憤怒，對吧？但我不敢相信，你又把盤子忘在水槽裡了我為你做了這麼多，你還是把盤子留在水槽裡，對吧？就像，不，這根本不值得那種 幾乎像翻轉開關。我能感覺到這種感覺這就像電影《勇敢的心》裡的一個糟糕版本，就是這個總的戰士圍繞著一些東西，而這些東西與桌面上真正的問題根本不成比例。所以，不管你內心儀表盤上的紅燈是什麼，只要讓你知道你正在為某些事情惹麻煩，就一定要注意。最後一個我要說的是加速，開始加速，發出 "嗒嗒嗒嗒 "的聲音，或者手

Yeah, totally. And we're talking here a little bit, starting the episode basically by talking about how can we give more effective criticism and be a better complainer, if you want to kind of put it that way. And one of the big questions that I've started to ask myself about this mood of complaint that I can sometimes find myself in is, what is my actual objective?

是的，沒錯。我們在這裡談了一下，這一集的開頭基本上是在談我們如何才能給予更有效的責備，如何才能成為一個更好的抱怨者，如果你想這麼說的話。對於這種抱怨的情緒，我開始問自己的一個大問題是，我的實際目標是什麼？

What is my primary motivation? What do I want to accomplish with whatever it is that I'm saying to the other person? Because there are a lot of reasons for complaining that, like I was saying earlier, have nothing to do with problem-solving. People complain to bond socially. They also complain for mood regulation purposes. A lot of people vent just to kind of get it out of their system, right? Now, basically, that's dumping your negative mood on somebody else, so it could be a mixed bag, but it's a reason people complain.

我的主要動機是什麼？我對對方說這些話的目的是什麼？因為抱怨有很多原因，就像我之前說的，與解決問題無關。人們抱怨是為了建立社交關係。他們抱怨也是為了調節情緒。很多人發洩只是為了發洩，對嗎？現在，基本上，這是把你的負面情緒傾倒給別人，所以這可能是一個混合包，但它是人們抱怨的一個原因。

They deserved it.

他們活該。

Yeah, they deserved it. And again, like vengeance. Vengeance is a reason that people complain, right? Or they might be like seeking attention. Sometimes I seek attention with my complaints.

是啊，他們活該。再說一遍，就像復仇復仇是人們抱怨的一個原因，對吧？或者他們可能是在尋求關注有時我也會通過抱怨來尋求關注

I want somebody to pay attention to my experience more, so it becomes like a kind of cry for help. And those are all reasons that somebody might complain that are really understandable.

我希望有人能更多地關注我的經歷，所以這就像是一種求助。這些都是可以理解的抱怨理由。

Bonding is an okay motivation to complain, and sharing your feelings is an okay motivation, but it's really helpful to understand why you're doing this thing, and if there might be something else that could fulfill that purpose better than offering a complaint.

增進感情是一個不錯的抱怨動機，分享感受也是一個不錯的動機，但真正有用的是瞭解自己為什麼要做這件事，以及是否有其他事情可以比抱怨更好地實現這一目的。

Another thing that I really ask myself is, is it possible for what I'm complaining about to actually change? Like, can the person that I'm talking to really do something about this thing in a focused way?

我問自己的另一件事是，我抱怨的事情有可能真的改變嗎？比如，和我說話的那個人真的能有針對性地做些什麼嗎？

Yeah, I find it's also super helpful. This gets a little bit at the distinction, which

是啊，我覺得這也超級有用。這有一點區別，那就是

I'd never heard before. One thing that's great about working with you is that you forest to a deep dive into the psychology and the current research related to our topics, and you bring stuff forward that, wow, you're educating me. So, you know, instrumental and expressive forms of complaining. To say it maybe a little differently, the way I would put it, is the distinction between asserting information and sharing an experience.

我以前從未聽說過。與你共事的一大好處是，你會深入研究與我們的主題相關的心理學和當前研究，你帶來的東西讓我大開眼界。所以，你知道，抱怨的工具性和表現性形式。我的說法可能有點不同，那就是斷言資訊和分享經驗之間的區別。

Yeah.

是啊

And let me get at that point with a little story, which had to do when I was maybe 21 or 2, and I just started getting involved with the EST training. And I recall being in a seminar room with this just powerhouse of a teacher, and she would have one person after another come to the front of the room and practice leading the very first part of this guest seminar, this workshop. And then people would give feedback. So, the person would come up to the front of the room and give a little talk for 3 to 5 minutes. Then

讓我用一個小故事來說明這一點，那是在我 21 歲或 2 歲的時候，我剛剛開始參加 EST 培訓。我記得當時在一間研討室裡，有一位非常厲害的老師，她會讓一個又一個人走到研討室前面，練習上司嘉賓研討會、工作坊的第一部分。然後大家會給出反饋意見。所以，這個人會走到教室前面，做一個 3 到 5 分鐘的小演講。然後

Marsha would say, okay, feedback. And people would start saying things like, well, I think you ought to have done X, or when you did Y, it would be better if you did Z. Marsha would cut them off again and again. She would say, I don't want your infinite wisdom. I want your experience. What were you experiencing while this person was talking? And then people would start to share, well, in the very beginning, what I was experiencing was a lot of attentiveness to you and a feeling of liking you. And after about half a minute, while you were moving into this sort of long list of details, my experience was I started feeling kind of bored and my mind began to wander, and I was becoming more interested in other things. That's gold, sharing your experience. And I think both in terms of giving feedback and receiving feedback, it's helpful to get a factual-based information or statements of values. Okay, that's good. But what's really, really valuable is what was your experience? What was it like for you? How did it land on you? Which is usually a lot more vulnerable and challenging to share. So we tend to go into the assertions of fact or assertions of values, assertions of information to avoid the vulnerability, right, of just laying out our own experience.

瑪莎會說，好吧，反饋。然後人們就會開始說，我覺得你應該做 X，或者當你做 Y 的時候，如果你做 Z 會更好。她會說，我不需要你無窮的智慧。我要的是你的經驗。在這個人說話的時候，你經歷了什麼？然後人們就會開始分享，好吧，剛開始的時候，我體驗到的是對你的關注和喜歡你的感覺。大約過了半分鐘，當你開始講述一長串的細節時，我的體驗是我開始覺得有點無聊，思緒開始遊離，對其他事情越來越感興趣。這就是金子，分享你的經驗。我認為，無論是在給予反饋還是接受反饋方面，獲得基於事實的資訊或價值觀陳述都是很有幫助的。好的，這很好。

And it's paradoxical because, or ironic in that, there's this kind of fear that our experience itself doesn't have authority. It'll be dismissed or disregarded, maybe because it was.

這是個悖論，因為，或者說具有諷刺意味的是，人們害怕我們的經驗本身不具有權威性。它將被否定或無視，也許因為它曾經是。

I think that's really good, Dad. This is a really important point. I don't know if I've heard this one before. I really like this.

我覺得這樣很好，爸爸。這一點真的很重要我不知道我以前是否聽過這句話。我很喜歡這句話

Good, yeah. And so we start then asserting facts and asserting values, which we actually have much less natural authority for, and other people think they have authority about what the facts are and what ought to be. And so then they'll start arguing with us about that. But where we have complete authority, actually, is the honest revelation, the honest sharing of our own direct experience. When that was happening, my mind was wandering.

很好，是的。於是，我們開始斷言事實，斷言價值觀，而實際上，我們在這方面的天然權威性要低得多，而其他人則認為他們在事實是什麼、應該是什麼方面擁有權威。於是，他們就開始與我們爭論不休。但實際上，我們擁有完全權威的地方是誠實的啟示，誠實地分享我們自己的直接經驗。當這一切發生時，我的思緒飄忽不定。

When that was happening, on the other hand, I felt really close to you and interested in what you were having to say. Because we are the world's greatest experts on our own experience, right? We are the great authorities on it. And that's where we have the ultimate refuge because people can argue forever about facts and values, but they cannot argue about the fact that you are actually experiencing something at the time.

另一方面，當你這樣做的時候，我覺得自己離你很近，對你所說的話很感興趣。因為我們是世界上最瞭解自己經歷的專家，對嗎？我們是這方面的權威。這就是我們的終極避難所，因為人們可以永遠爭論事實和價值觀，但他們無法爭論你當時正在經歷的事實。

Yeah, and that reminds me immediately of formal systems of communication like nonviolent communication, which is probably relevant to name here, which has a specific structure attached to it. We've done an episode on nonviolent communication. And the basic idea behind it is that you're doing exactly what you're talking about, Dad. You're operating from the stance of revealing your experience with the other person, and then expressing some desire attached to that experience. And that takes me to probably the single best piece of advice that I've ever received about communication. I think I got it from you. And it's start by joining.

是的，這讓我立刻想起了正式的溝通系統，比如非暴力溝通，這可能與這裡的名字有關，它有一個特定的結構。我們曾經做過一集關於非暴力溝通的節目。它背後的基本理念是，你所做的正是你所說的，爸爸。你的立場是向對方展示你的經歷，然後表達出與這種經歷相關的某種願望。這可能是我收到的關於溝通的最好的一條建議。我想我是從你那裡得到的。那就從加入開始吧。

And so if you're offering a complaint, it is 99.99% of the time best to start by joining.

是以，如果您要投訴，99.99% 的情況下最好從加入開始。

Is it possible for you to find a place where you can overlap with the other person, integrate with your experience with them, come a little closer, operate from a stance of vulnerability, give them a compliment, you know, whatever? Can you achieve a team? And from that team with them, can you go, hey, here's some ideas I've had about how we can improve this team.

你是否有可能找到一個地方，在那裡你可以與對方重疊，融入你與對方的經歷，走得更近一些，以一種脆弱的姿態進行操作，給對方一個讚美，你知道，不管是什麼？你們能組成一個團隊嗎？在與他們的團隊中，你能不能說，嘿，這是我的一些想法，關於我們如何改善這個團隊。

So it's not you and them. It's both of you together, working toward the resolution of an issue. And that was totally transformative for me in my life when I started to operate more from that stance. I'm still trying to learn it.

所以，這不是你和他們的問題。而是你們兩個人一起努力解決問題。當我開始更多地從這一立場出發時，我的生活發生了翻天覆地的變化。我仍在努力學習。

Yeah. It's not always easy to be quick.

是啊，要做到快並不容易。

I know. I think there's a certain kind of special embarrassment when you've been training to do something for a long time, like training to play the bagpipes for a really long time. And you're, you know, you're reasonably good at it. And then you suddenly realize that you've been playing a song wrong, or you've been falling back into some kind of beginner's mistake, and I've definitely been going through some of that recently in my own personal life.

我知道我覺得當你長期訓練做一件事時，會有一種特別的尷尬，比如訓練吹風笛很久了。你，你知道，你已經相當擅長了。然後你會突然意識到，你彈錯了一首曲子，或者你又陷入了某種初學者的誤區，我最近在自己的個人生活中確實經歷了一些這樣的事情。

I want to add one thing, if I could, just to what you said there, which is that it's really understandable that we are afraid to share our experience with others, especially if we've had a history in which that did not go well. We got attacked for it or shunned for it. It was not the culture or whatever it was. So it's really, really understandable. And I think that the world would be a lot better if people, me included, just clocked more time in sort of vulnerable revealing of their experiencing in real time. It's quite remarkable when you do that.

如果可以的話，我想就你剛才說的補充一點，那就是我們害怕與他人分享我們的經歷，這確實是可以理解的，尤其是如果我們曾經有過不順利的經歷。我們是以受到攻擊或避開。這不是我們的文化，也不知道是什麼原因。所以，這真的是可以理解的。我認為，如果人們，包括我在內，能夠多花點時間，實時脆弱地揭示自己的經歷，這個世界會變得更好。當你這樣做的時候，你就會發現它的非凡之處。

Yeah, totally. And I think that a great indicator inside of our relationships with other people is how open are they to accepting your vulnerability in that way.

是啊，沒錯。我認為，在我們與他人的關係中，一個很好的指標就是，他們是否願意以這種方式接受你的脆弱。

And if you're in a relationship with somebody where it just really feels like they are not available for that, man, it's tough. It's a tough relationship. And I'm not saying that that means that relationship can't exist, but it might mean that there are some ways to protect yourself emotionally that the basis of the relationship needs to change a little bit. You've talked a lot,

如果你和某人的關係中，你真的感覺到他們無法做到這一點，那就太艱難了。這是一種艱難的關係。我並不是說這樣的關係就不存在了，但這可能意味著有一些方法可以在情感上保護自己，關係的基礎需要改變一下。你們聊了很多

Dad, about changing the size of the foundation of a relationship to match its foundation, is a better way to put it, because there's only so much that can be held up by an interpersonal relationship where they're just not open to your vulnerability.

爸爸，改變人際關係基礎的大小，使之與人際關係的基礎相匹配，是一個更好的說法，因為在人際關係中，如果對方不對你的脆弱敞開心扉，那麼所能支撐的東西就太少了。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one thing that can come forward when people are just really revealed about what it's like to be you is that what it's like to be you is to feel chronically let down by other people. Yeah, for sure. Chronically disrespected, unsupported, mistreated, usually because it's pretty much been true. And what do you do if that's very much in your history or because it's been in your history, there's an understandable, not quite expectation, but a concern that is going to happen yet again?

是啊，是啊，是啊。當人們真正瞭解自己是什麼樣子的時候 會發現一件事 那就是你長期被別人辜負的感覺是的，沒錯。長期不被尊重、不被支持、被虐待，通常都是因為這些都是事實。如果這種情況在你的經歷中很常見，或者因為這種情況在你的經歷中很常見，你會有一種可以理解的、不完全是期望的、但擔心會再次發生的擔憂，你會怎麼做？

And that's real for people. Now, sometimes it is true that people can take that real sense of just being let down, a kind of inner slump. They can add to it with a certain amount of what in therapy world we could call secondary gains by kind of working their mood of reproach as like, you know, that wound is almost a badge of honor that presents itself as a claim on other people.

這對人們來說是真實的。有時候，人們確實會有一種被辜負的感覺，一種內心的低落。他們可以用一定量的、在心理治療領域我們可以稱之為二次收穫的東西來增加這種感覺，就像，你知道，這種傷痛幾乎是一種榮譽的徽章，它本身就是對其他人的一種要求。

And they're kind of afraid that if they don't lead with that complaint and that claim, then there won't be a basis for other people to come through for them.

他們有點害怕，如果自己不帶頭提出申訴和要求，其他人就沒有理由為他們出頭。

And they'll be abandoned as a result. So sometimes there is that add-on, there is that add-on, okay. But underneath it all often for people is a very genuine and understandable sense of just having been really let down. And so what do you do with that, right? What do you do with that? There's a lot of stuff about becoming mindful of it, becoming aware of it, bringing compassion to yourself about it, respecting yourself, recognizing that, of course, you feel this way, of course, you feel let down, of course, you're afraid of being let down again. That's where we start.