Each week, we bring you conversations about the stories we can't stop thinking about.

每週，我們都會為您帶來有關我們無法停止思考的故事的對話。

Lately, many of those stories have been part of a series called Who is Government?

最近，其中許多故事都成為了 "誰是政府？

Basically, we ask seven amazing writers to venture into the federal government and find a story to tell, generally about someone who's been doing something amazing, unheralded, and indispensable.

基本上，我們會請七位出色的作家冒險進入聯邦政府，尋找一個故事來講述，一般都是關於某個人一直在做的令人驚歎、默默無聞、不可或缺的事情。

So for the next few weeks, we're going to be dropping some bonus episodes into your feed.

是以，在接下來的幾周裡，我們將向您發送一些額外的節目。

Each one will be hosted by Michael Lewis.

每次活動都將由邁克爾-劉易斯主持。

Michael, the best-selling author of Moneyball, The Big Short, and The Fifth Risk, which is about government, wrote the first story in the series, and is the guy who assembled the star team of writers who ventured deep into the government.

邁克爾是《錢球》（Moneyball）、《大空頭》（The Big Short）和以政府為題材的《第五種風險》（Theifth Risk）的暢銷書作者，他撰寫了該系列的第一個故事，也是他組建了深入政府的明星作家團隊。

Here's the first one.

這是第一個。

We hope you enjoy it.

希望你們喜歡。

So this is Michael Lewis.

這位就是邁克爾-劉易斯。

This week, our writer and my guest is Dave Eggers, who is maybe my favorite living writer.

本週，我們的作家和我的嘉賓是戴夫-艾格斯，他可能是我最喜歡的在世作家。

Also a good friend.

也是一位好朋友。

He's the writer's equivalent of a decathlete.

他相當於作家中的十項全能運動員。

Dave, thanks for being here, and talk to me a little bit about this piece you did.

戴夫，感謝你能來這裡，跟我談談你做的這篇報道吧。

Hey, thanks for having me here and inviting me to be part of this team.

謝謝你邀請我加入這個團隊。

I was interested in all kinds of parts of the federal government, but I started noodling around what NASA was up to, and came across an upcoming project looking for life on other planets, on planets that are right now hidden by the light of faraway stars.

我對聯邦政府的各種部門都很感興趣，但我開始琢磨美國國家航空航天局（NASA）的工作，並發現了一個即將開展的項目，即尋找其他星球上的生命，這些星球現在正被遙遠恆星的光芒所掩蓋。

And I just thought that was so fascinating, and there was something called starlight depression.

我覺得這太迷人了，還有一種叫星光抑鬱症的東西。

So I thought, well, these folks are federal employees.

所以我想，這些人都是聯邦僱員。

It's different than working for the IRS, you might say.

你可能會說，這和為國稅局工作不同。

But I think we are really still the primary country in the world doing space exploration, especially very speculative and non-commercial space exploration, like looking for life on other planets.

但我認為，我們仍然是世界上進行太空探索的主要國家，尤其是非常投機和非商業性的太空探索，比如尋找其他星球上的生命。

How did you hear about this in the first place?

你是怎麼知道這件事的？

Well, I go to the NASA website a lot just to sort of see what new photos they have from the various satellites and explorers.

我經常去美國國家航空航天局的網站，看看他們從各種衛星和探險者那裡獲得了哪些新照片。

And pretty early on, looking at the website, there was a young woman named Vanessa Bailey, who's a scientist doing research on exoplanets, like planets outside of our solar system.

很早以前，在網站上看到一位名叫凡妮莎-貝利的年輕女性，她是一位從事系外行星研究的科學家，比如太陽系外的行星。

And she was in this video talking about tools to hide starlight, to suppress starlight, so that you could look beyond or near that star to see planets that otherwise would be invisible because of the brightness of the star.

她在這段視頻中談到了隱藏星光、抑制星光的工具，這樣你就可以在恆星之外或附近看到行星，否則就會因為恆星的亮度而看不到行星。

But those are the planets close to the Sun that are most likely to have life on them, because you need to be in that Goldilocks zone, so it's warm enough and close enough to benefit from the star's warmth.

但是，這些靠近太陽的行星最有可能有生命存在，因為你需要處於金髮區，這樣才足夠溫暖，足夠靠近，才能從恆星的溫暖中獲益。

So Vanessa Bailey was in this video kind of explaining it in a very lucid way.

凡妮莎-貝利在視頻中以一種非常清晰的方式解釋了這一點。

And I never even took physics or chemistry in high school or college, so whenever I understand something that's otherwise pretty complex, I think I glom on to that person, like Neil deGrasse Tyson.

我在高中或大學甚至都沒學過物理或化學，所以每當我理解了一些原本很複雜的東西時，我就會向尼爾-德格拉斯-泰森這樣的人求助。

You know, like he's my hero, because everything he says I understand.

你知道，就像他是我的英雄一樣，因為他說的每句話我都懂。

So that's like miraculous, and Vanessa has that gift too.

這簡直就是奇蹟，瓦妮莎也有這種天賦。

So I got in touch with the JPL and said, you know, could I learn more about this?

於是，我聯繫了 JPL，說，你知道，我能瞭解更多這方面的情況嗎？

And went down there to their campus in Pasadena and met Vanessa Bailey and met Nick Siegler and met a bunch of other folks working on various tools to look for life on exoplanets.

我去了他們在帕薩迪納的校園，見到了凡妮莎-貝利，見到了尼克-西格勒，還見到了其他一些研究各種工具的人，他們都在尋找系外行星上的生命。

What were they like as characters?

他們是怎樣的人物？

Vanessa is engaging, but at the same time she's very almost kind of spiritual in her approach to it.

凡妮莎很有感染力，但同時她的做法也很有靈性。

She talks about how beautifully humbling space exploration and the search for life on other planets is.

她談到了太空探索和尋找其他星球上的生命是多麼令人感動。

You know, she said at one point, I like to feel small, meaning like she grew up in South Dakota looking at the stars from, you know, cornfields outside of her house and was just, you know, awed by and humbled by infinite space.

她曾說過，我喜歡渺小的感覺，意思是她在南達科他州長大，在家門口的玉米地裡仰望星空，被無限的空間所震撼和折服。

And she's never really lost that.

她從未失去過這一點。

So she has this like contagious enthusiasm and wonder about the work that she does, even though much of what she's doing is, you know, sitting at a computer, you know, looking at data.

是以，她對自己所做的工作充滿了熱情和好奇，儘管她所做的大部分工作都是坐在電腦前查看數據。

Trying to find exoplanets.

試圖尋找系外行星

Yeah, you and I wouldn't understand what she's seeing really, and it wouldn't look like some gorgeous nebula in space from Star Trek.

是啊，你和我都不會明白她看到了什麼，而且看起來也不像是《星際迷航》中的某個絢麗的太空星雲。

It's not like that kind of thing on a daily basis.

這種事情不是每天都會發生的。

So much of what they do is not exciting every day.

他們每天做的很多事情都不令人興奮。

And they work for years and years on these tools, you know.

他們長年累月地研究這些工具，你知道的。

Yeah.

是啊

Does it seem to you kind of boring?

你是否覺得有點無聊？

Well, for me, I think that the incredibly delayed gratification would be hard, you know.

好吧，對我來說，我覺得難以置信的延遲滿足會很難，你知道的。

Like, I think that they've been working for years on this tool that will go up.

比如，我認為他們多年來一直在研究這個即將升空的工具。

It's called the Roman coronagraph.

它被稱為羅馬日冕儀。

And coronagraph is sort of like the sun blocking tool to look beyond these stars.

而日冕儀就有點像遮擋太陽的工具，用來觀察這些恆星之外的情況。

That's the coronagraph.

那是日冕儀。

It might be 20 years, 30 years before they see like the ultimate culmination of all of their work.

也許 20 年、30 年後，他們才能看到自己所有工作的最終成果。

You know, it's fascinating how kind of monk-like in their dedication they are and how humble they all are.

你知道，他們的奉獻精神和謙遜態度是多麼令人著迷，就像僧侶一樣。

There's something about JPL and NASA in general that just attracts and maintains a kind of agency-wide humility.

JPL 和美國國家航空航天局（NASA）總體上吸引並保持著一種全機構的謙遜。

They never want to get credit for anything.

他們從來不想獲得任何榮譽。

Nobody I met would take credit for anything at all.

我見過的人中，沒有人願意為任何事情邀功。

They were always, you know, pushing it off onto somebody else or the overall team.

他們總是把事情推給別人或整個團隊。

That cultural humility is kind of remarkable given how exciting I think their work is.

考慮到我認為他們的工作是多麼令人興奮，這種文化上的謙遜就顯得非常了不起了。

Do you have any sense of why this particular task wouldn't be better done in the private sector?

您是否知道為什麼這項特殊任務不能由私營部門更好地完成？

Is this something that Elon Musk is going to be doing or is doing?

這是埃隆-馬斯克將要或正在做的事情嗎？

There's no money in it.

這裡面沒錢。

There can be no profit pretty much ever in finding some sign of life on another planet hundreds or thousands of light years away.

在幾百或幾千光年之外的另一顆行星上發現生命跡象，幾乎永遠不會有任何益處。

There's no way to profit from it.

根本無法從中獲利。

I don't know what you could do.

我不知道你能做什麼。

I don't know if you could sell them Tesla.

我不知道特斯拉能不能賣給你。

I don't know if you could sell some NFC of a picture of a dot on a screen.

我不知道你是否能賣出一些在螢幕上畫一個點的 NFC。

You know, like there's just no way to do it.

你知道，就像沒有辦法做到一樣。

So this is just pure knowledge for knowledge's sake.

是以，這只是純粹為知識而知識。

What I love about this, you find this across the government.

我最喜歡的是，你會在政府各部門發現這一點。

These kind of search for knowledge for knowledge's sake that ends up having all kinds of knock-on effects and sometimes commercial effects.

這種為知識而知識的搜索最終會產生各種連鎖反應，有時還會產生商業效應。

You just don't know what they're going to be.

你只是不知道它們會是什麼。

Yeah, I mean NASA has a whole part of their site and they make sure that they note every time their research leads to some unrelated technology.

是的，我的意思是，美國國家航空航天局（NASA）在他們的網站上有一個完整的部分，他們確保每次他們的研究導致一些不相關的技術時，他們都會註明。

Like Velcro way back when was a NASA sort of byproduct.

就像當年的尼龍搭扣（Velcro）一樣，是美國國家航空航天局（NASA）的副產品。

Right.

對

And so many of these things, they're always careful to do that because their research is expensive and they are using the best minds in the world to do it.

很多事情，他們總是小心翼翼地去做，因為他們的研究是昂貴的，他們正在使用世界上最好的頭腦去做。

So when there are these byproducts that the private sector or the public at large can benefit from, they're very careful to note that.

是以，當私營部門或廣大公眾可以從這些副產品中受益時，他們會非常謹慎地注意到這一點。

Yeah.

是啊

There always are so many.

總是那麼多。

I mean when you create these telescopes in space, they advance the technology so far that that has benefits for satellites and other sort of terrestrial technologies too.

我的意思是說，當你在太空中製造出這些望遠鏡時，它們所帶來的技術進步對衛星和其他地面技術也有好處。

I have a weird question for you.

我有個奇怪的問題要問你。

Do you care if there's life somewhere else?

你關心其他地方是否還有生命嗎？

Deeply.

深深地。

Privately and casually, again and again, scientists told me like, well, yeah, in the next few decades we'll probably know a planet that has life.

科學家們私下裡一次又一次地告訴我，嗯，是的，在接下來的幾十年裡，我們可能會知道一個有生命的星球。

Your kids will know the name of this planet.

你的孩子會知道這個星球的名字。

Your grandkids will grow up knowing that there's this planet called, you know, whatever it's called.

你的孫子長大後就會知道，這個星球叫什麼，你知道的，不管它叫什麼。

And I think that that changes life on our planet to some extent.

我認為，這在一定程度上改變了地球上的生命。

Do you have fun doing the piece?

你在創作過程中感到有趣嗎？

Oh, I had the best time.

哦，我度過了最美好的時光。

Calla Cofield is sort of their media relations specialist who also has a degree in physics because even at the JPL, even the media relations person has an advanced physics degree and she was fantastic.

卡拉-科菲爾德（Calla Cofield）是他們的媒體關係專家，也有物理學學位，因為即使在 JPL，媒體關係人員也有高級物理學學位，她非常出色。

Yeah, I would go back there.

是的，我會回到那裡。

I would live there for a week if I could.

如果可以，我願意在那裡住上一週。

Every other building has some outrageously interesting thing inside.

其他每棟建築內部都有一些有趣得令人髮指的東西。

The campus is in sort of a very sun-baked canyon above Pasadena.

校園位於帕薩迪納市上方一個陽光非常強烈的峽谷中。

And the last tour was sort of a kind of a work warehouse run by Kim Aaron, who's been there 40 years, a physicist.

最後一次參觀是金-亞倫（Kim Aaron）經營的工作倉庫，他在那裡工作了 40 年，是一位物理學家。

They're working on a different way to look beyond exoplanets called the starshade.

他們正在研究一種不同的方法來觀察系外行星，這種方法被稱為 "星影"。

And this would be a giant like 60 meter diameter flower in space basically to mirror the shape of starlight so that a telescope would be lined up maybe as far away as 50, 90,000 kilometers away.

這將是一朵直徑 60 米的巨型太空之花，基本上可以反射星光的形狀，這樣望遠鏡就可以在 5 萬到 9 萬公里以外的地方進行觀測。

To block the light.

擋住光線

To block the light.

擋住光線

It's like holding out your hand to block the sun so you can see something.

這就像伸出手擋住陽光，好讓你看清一些東西。

Exactly.

沒錯。

But a 90,000 kilometer difference between the telescope and this giant flower shade.

但是，望遠鏡和這個巨大的花影之間相差 9 萬公里。

So he showed me parts of the actual model for it, which was enormous and gold and beautiful.

於是，他給我看了部分實際模型，模型巨大、金色，非常漂亮。

I mean, it's very photogenic.

我是說，它很上鏡。

But this guy was this brilliant scientist working in a workshop on a hill with some graduate students and kind of, you know, in sort of a mad scientist sort of a way.

但這傢伙是一位傑出的科學家，他和一些研究所學生一起在山上的工作室工作，有點像瘋狂科學家。

And the JPL and NASA has these, you know, brilliant people kind of noodling around on research, self-directed research to, you know, to see all the different possibilities.

而 JPL 和 NASA 有這些，你知道的，傑出的人們在研究中摸索，自主研究，你知道的，看到所有不同的可能性。

But it did present a real difference between some of the coronagraph that I wrote about and Vanessa Bailey worked on.

但是，我所寫的一些日冕儀與 Vanessa Bailey 所研究的日冕儀之間確實存在著差異。

It's so small.

太小了

They have like 3,400 pistons moving this little lens that is no bigger than, you know, your hand.

它們有 3,400 個活塞在移動這個小透鏡，這個透鏡比你的手大不了多少。

And then meanwhile, the competing technology, you might think, is 60 meters wide and looks like something from the Apollo era.

與此同時，你可能會認為，與之競爭的技術有 60 米寬，看起來像是阿波羅時代的東西。

NASA is in the inspiration business.

美國國家航空航天局從事靈感事業。

You know, that's a large part of what they do.

你知道，這是他們工作的一大部分。

So for those of us that grew up kind of fascinated by Apollo and Space Shuttle, everything that you sort of want NASA and the Jet Propulsion Lab to be, they are.

是以，對於我們這些從小就對阿波羅和航天飛機著迷的人來說，你希望美國國家航空航天局和噴氣推進實驗室成為的一切，他們都做到了。

You're never disappointed.

你永遠不會失望。

They're just doing stuff that's much more fascinating than you thought possible.

他們做的事情比你想象的要有趣得多。

And the people that are doing it are much more humble and self-effacing and sincere than you could ever hope for.

而那些正在這樣做的人要比你所希望的更加謙遜、自卑和真誠。

So this was great.

這真是太棒了。

Thank you.

謝謝。

Sure.

當然。

We'll put a link to Dave's full article about NASA, the Jet Propulsion Lab, and star suppression in the show notes.

我們將在節目註釋中提供戴夫關於美國國家航空航天局、噴氣推進實驗室和恆星抑制的完整文章鏈接。

And make sure to check out the rest of our series, including the already published articles by Michael and Casey Sepp in the Washington Post.

請務必查看我們系列的其他內容，包括邁克爾和凱西-塞普已經在《華盛頓郵報》上發表的文章。

This episode was produced by Hadley Robinson and edited by Millie Mitra and Allison Michaels.

本集由 Hadley Robinson 製作，Millie Mitra 和 Allison Michaels 剪輯。

It was mixed by Emma Munger.

混音師是艾瑪-蒙格。

As always, tell us what you think by emailing impromptu at washpost.com.

請一如既往地將您的想法通過電子郵件發送給 impromptu at washpost.com 告訴我們。

I'm David Shipley.

我是戴維-希普利

Thanks for listening.

感謝您的收聽。