He also tweets a lot.

他還經常發微博。

Elon Musk right here, do you want to know?

埃隆-馬斯克就在這裡，你想知道嗎？

Look at you.

看看你

Look at you.

看看你

Wow.

哇

Did I get the full order of things that you do in a day there when I was reading there?

我在那裡讀書的時候，你們一天所做事情的順序是否完整？

I left out the tunnel thing at the end.

我漏掉了最後的隧道。

Do you work on all these things?

你在做這些事情嗎？

Yeah, I have a lot of jobs.

是的，我有很多工作。

Do you do all these things every day?

你每天都做這些事情嗎？

Do you work on all of them in a single day?

您會在一天內完成所有工作嗎？

No.

不

But I do have a long work day.

但我的工作日確實很長。

Yeah, so I work a lot.

是的，所以我經常工作。

Well, I'm so thrilled you're here because we do a show where we talk about what changes happen in the world, but we just talk.

我很高興你能來，因為在我們的節目中，我們談論世界上發生的變化，但我們只是談論。

There's very few people who actually make change happen.

真正能實現變革的人少之又少。

You are one of those people, probably.

你可能就是其中之一。

Thank you.

謝謝。

I just want to say I love this audience.

我只想說，我喜歡這些觀眾。

Well, you're a likable guy.

你很討人喜歡。

I mean, they attack you a lot.

我是說，他們經常攻擊你。

They do.

他們是這樣做的。

And you seem to laugh it off, which I think is fantastic.

而你似乎一笑置之，我覺得這真是太棒了。

I love it that you have a sense of humor because a guy as important as you who makes changes, could use your powers for evil and not good.

我喜歡你的幽默感，因為像你這麼重要的人，能做出改變的人，可能會利用你的能力為惡，而不是為善。

The fact that-

事實上

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，當然。

You could.

你可以

Of course, I would never use them for evil.

當然，我絕不會用它們來做壞事。

That's crazy.

太瘋狂了

No, I know, but the way I know that is because you have a sense of humor.

不，我知道，但我之所以知道，是因為你有幽默感。

Yeah.

是啊

You really do.

你真的這麼想。

I swear I do.

我發誓我會的。

Yeah, you like laughing.

是啊，你喜歡笑。

You like to be funny.

你喜歡搞笑

I mean, I kill me.

我是說，我殺了我自己。

As opposed to somebody like Zuckerberg who I'm not even sure is a real boy.

而扎克伯格這樣的人，我甚至不確定他是不是一個真正的男孩。

Yeah.

是啊

I actually love comedy and I should let you know, like many years ago,

我其實很喜歡喜劇，我應該讓你知道，就像很多年前一樣、

I actually was in the audience here and watched your show.

實際上，我當時就在觀眾席上，觀看了你的表演。

Oh, really?

哦，真的嗎？

So I've been a long time admirer of your show.

我一直很喜歡你的節目。

Oh, well, thank you.

哦，好吧，謝謝你。

Let me get back to you being a genius.

讓我回到你是天才的話題上來。

Okay, so, but that has always been my view is that, I was a history major, and when you study history, what you realize is that, you know, there's the great man theory and they talk about kings and princes and queens and presidents.

好吧，但我一直認為，我主修歷史，當你學習歷史時，你會意識到，你知道，有一種偉人理論，他們談論國王、王子、王后和總統。

It's really the people in tech who change the world.

真正改變世界的是科技人員。

They're the people who deal the cards, whether it's fire or electricity for good or bad, or the cotton gin or the iPhone or the atom bomb.

他們是發牌的人，不管是好是壞的火或電，還是軋棉機、iPhone 或原子彈。

Those are the cards and the rest of us just play it.

這些都是牌，我們其他人只是玩牌。

Would you agree with that assessment?

你同意這一評價嗎？

I think technology is the thing that causes these big step changes in civilization.

我認為技術是導致文明發生巨大變化的原因。

So obviously you've got things like, say, the Gutenberg Press, before which it was very difficult to get books.

很顯然，你已經有了像古騰堡印刷機這樣的東西，在此之前，要想獲得書籍是非常困難的。

They were very rare.

它們非常罕見。

Even if you had a thirst for knowledge, you really couldn't do anything about it because there were very few books to read.

即使你求知若渴，你也真的無能為力，因為可供閱讀的書籍少之又少。

So, and the internet is something beyond the Gutenberg Press, I think, but, you know, it's a...

所以，互聯網是超越古騰堡印刷術的東西，我想，但是，你知道，這是一個...

When I first saw the internet coming into being in a way that the general public could use it, it felt like the humanity as a whole was developing a nervous system.

當我第一次看到互聯網以一種普通大眾都能使用的方式出現時，我感覺整個人類都在發展神經系統。

So previously, the way that information would travel would be by osmosis, one person to another, or one person calling another.

是以，以前資訊傳播的方式是滲透，一個人傳給另一個人，或者一個人打電話給另一個人。

But the access to information was very limited.

但獲取信息的途徑非常有限。

Now with the internet, it's like having a nervous system.

現在有了互聯網，就像有了神經系統。

It's like any part of humanity has access to almost all the information of humanity.

就好像人類的任何一部分都能獲取人類幾乎所有的資訊。

Like you could be in the middle of the Amazon jungle with, say, a Starlink terminal and have access to more information than the president did in 1980.

比如說，你可以在亞馬遜叢林中使用星聯終端，獲得比 1980 年的總統更多的資訊。

Right, well, anything on your phone.

好吧，手機上的任何東西。

Everything.

所有東西

Is...

是...

Yeah.

是啊

Okay, so you are one of these dealers, these people who deal the cards in civilization.

好吧，那麼你就是這些發牌員中的一員，這些在文明社會中發牌的人。

I deal some memes, too.

我也處理了一些備忘錄。

Yes, you do.

是的，你會的。

Some, uh...

有些...

So I think a lot of people thought when you bought Twitter that this is kind of an outlier, like how does this, what doesn't fit with these other things you're doing?

是以，我認為當你收購 Twitter 時，很多人都認為這有點離群索居，比如這和你正在做的其他事情有什麼不符？

I never thought that.

我從沒這麼想過。

Because I think you're dealing with big civilizational issues and problems, and I was right on your page.

因為我認為你們正在處理重大的文明問題和難題，而我就在你們的頁面上。

I think Twitter is one of them.

我認為 Twitter 就是其中之一。

I mean, you have talked about this woke mind virus.

我的意思是，你已經談到了這種被喚醒的 "心靈病毒"。

Yes.

是的。

In really apocalyptic terms.

用真正的世界末日術語來說。

Yeah.

是啊

You should explain why you don't think it's hyperbole to say things like it's pushing civilization towards suicide.

你應該解釋一下，為什麼你不認為 "這是把文明推向自殺 "這種說法是誇大其詞。

First of all, what is the woke mind virus?

首先，什麼是清醒頭腦病毒？

And if we don't deal with this, nothing else can get done.

如果我們不解決這個問題，其他事情就無從談起。

Tell me why you think that.

告訴我你為什麼這麼想。

Yeah, so...

是啊，所以...

I think we need to be very cautious about anything that is anti-meritocratic, and anything that results in the suppression of free speech.

我認為，我們需要非常謹慎地對待任何反民主的東西，以及任何導致壓制言論自由的東西。

So those are two of the aspects of the woke mind virus that I think are very dangerous, is that it's often anti-meritocratic.

是以，我認為 "清醒頭腦病毒 "的兩個方面非常危險，那就是它通常是反精英的。

You can't question things.

你不能質疑事物。

Even the questioning is bad.

就連提問也很糟糕。

So another way to, almost anonymous, would be cancel culture.

是以，另一種近乎匿名的方式就是取消文化。

And obviously people have tried to cancel you many times.

顯然，人們也曾多次試圖取消你們。

Many times.

很多次

Every week.

每週

Yeah.

是啊

From left and right.

從左到右

I've had it from both sides.

我兩邊都受夠了。

Yeah.

是啊

And it's interesting, people, you and I are both like in that little group of people, maybe it's a bigger group now, who are called conservative, who haven't really changed.

有趣的是，你和我都是那一小撮人中的一員，也許現在是更大的一群，他們被稱為保守派，他們並沒有真正改變。

I don't think of you as a conservative.

我不認為你是保守派。

I'm definitely, yeah, like,

我肯定，是的，喜歡、

I at least think of myself as a moderate, you know?

我至少認為自己是個溫和派，你知道嗎？

So, I mean, at least like,

所以，我的意思是，至少喜歡、

I've spent a massive amount of my life building energy, building sustainable energy, you know, electric vehicles and batteries and solar and stuff to help save the environment.

我一生都在建設能源，建設可持續能源，你知道的，電動汽車、電池、太陽能等等，以幫助拯救環境。

That's not a, you know.

這不是，你知道的。

No, no.

不，不

No, no.

不，不

It's not exactly far right.

它並不完全是極右派。

No, you drew that diagram once where you're here.

不，你在這裡畫過一次圖。

I related to that.

我對此深有感觸。

And like, the world has changed.

就像，世界已經變了。

Right.

對

I feel the same way.

我也有同感。

I feel like very often wokeness is not building on liberalism.

我覺得，智慧往往不是建立在自由主義的基礎上。

It's the opposite of liberalism.

這是自由主義的反面。

I couldn't mention it.

我不能提。

Yes, exactly.

是的，沒錯。

Many examples where it's the opposite, including free speech.

很多例子恰恰相反，包括言論自由。

Free speech is actually, it's extremely important.

言論自由實際上是非常重要的。

And it's bizarre that we've come to this point where, like, free speech used to be a left or liberal value.

奇怪的是，我們已經走到了這一步，比如，言論自由曾經是左派或自由派的價值觀。

And yet we see from, you know, the in quotes left, a desire to actually censor.

然而，我們卻看到，你知道的，引號左側的人，渴望真正的審查。

And that seems crazy.

這似乎太瘋狂了。

I mean, I think we should be extremely concerned about anything that undermines the First Amendment.

我的意思是，我認為我們應該對任何破壞第一修正案的行為表示極大的關注。

There's a reason for the First Amendment.

第一修正案是有原因的。

The First Amendment is because people came from countries where they could not speak freely.

第一修正案的出臺是因為人們來自不能自由發言的國家。

And where saying certain things would get you thrown into prison.

在那裡，說某些話會讓你被關進監獄。

And they were like, well, we don't want that here.

他們說，我們不希望在這裡發生這種事。

And by the way, in many parts of the world, including parts of the world that people might think are relatively similar to the United States, the speech laws are draconian.

順便說一句，在世界許多地方，包括人們可能認為與美國比較相似的地方，言論法是非常嚴厲的。

England is quite different.

英國則截然不同。

I won't name any countries, but.

我不會說出任何國家的名字，但是

England, why are we protecting them?

英國，我們為什麼要保護他們？

They have no First Amendment.

他們沒有第一修正案。

It's very easy to prove libel in England.

在英國，證明誹謗很容易。

Where it's here, it's almost.

在這裡，它幾乎。

I love England.

我愛英格蘭

Yeah, you do, but I wouldn't want to say the wrong thing.

是的，但我不想說錯話。

Or, you could be sued easier.

或者，你可能更容易被起訴。

I mean, there are, in France,

我是說，法國有、

I think if you deny the Holocaust, which I think is abhorrent, but I also think it should be part of free speech, you can be thrown into jail.

我認為，如果你否認大屠殺，我認為這是令人憎惡的，但我也認為這應該是言論自由的一部分，你可以被關進監獄。

Okay, so this, I really can't emphasize this enough.

好吧，這一點，我真的怎麼強調都不為過。

We must protect free speech.

我們必須保護言論自由。

And free speech only matters, it's only relevant when it's someone you don't like saying something you don't like.

只有當你不喜歡的人說了你不喜歡的話時，言論自由才有意義。

Because obviously, the speech that you like is easy.

因為很明顯，你喜歡的演講很簡單。

So it's, and it's, the thing about censorship is that, sure, for those who would advocate it, just remember, at some point, that will be turned on you.

是以，關於審查制度的問題是，當然，對於那些鼓吹審查制度的人來說，只要記住，在某些時候，審查制度會反過來對付你。

So, this woke mind virus, how did it start?

那麼，這種喚醒心靈的病毒是如何開始的呢？

Was it bats?

是蝙蝠嗎？

Was it an escape from a lab?

是從實驗室逃出來的嗎？

I mean, what is your assessment of why?

我的意思是，你對原因有何評估？

Because it's fairly recent.

因為這是最近的事。

Why, how did it start and why?

為什麼會這樣？

I was, so I was trying to figure out where it's coming from.

我是這樣想的，所以我想知道它是從哪裡來的。

I think it's actually been a long time brewing, in that it's, I think it's been going on for a while.

我認為這其實已經醞釀了很久，因為我認為它已經持續了一段時間。

And the amount of indoctrination that's happening in schools and universities is, I think, far beyond what parents realize.

我認為，學校和大學的灌輸程度遠遠超出了家長們的認識。

And I only, I sort of came to realize this somewhat late.

我也是後來才意識到這一點的。

The experience that we had in high school and college is not the experience that kids today are having.

我們在高中和大學的經歷與現在孩子們的經歷不同。

And hasn't been for, I don't know, 10 years, maybe 20 years, so.

我也不知道，10 年了，也許 20 年了吧。

Aren't parents themselves also a big part of the problem?

父母本身不也是問題的一個重要部分嗎？

Well, I suppose in some cases that parents, but I think, like, the parents are just generally not aware of what their kids are being taught, or what they're not being taught.

好吧，我想在某些情況下，家長會這樣做，但我認為，家長一般都不知道他們的孩子在接受什麼教育，或者沒有接受什麼教育。

They're letting the kids think that they're equal.

他們讓孩子們認為他們是平等的。

I mean, yeah, let me give you an example that a friend of mine told me, which his daughters go to college in, sorry, go to high school in the Bay Area.

我的意思是，是的，讓我給你舉個例子，我的一個朋友告訴我，他的女兒在灣區上大學，對不起，在灣區上高中。

And he was asking them, like, well, so who are the, you know, who are the first few presidents of the United States?

他問他們，美國前幾任總統是誰？

They could name Washington.

他們可以說出華盛頓的名字。

And I said, well, what do you know about him?

我說，那你對他了解多少？

Well, he was a slave owner.

他是奴隸主

What else?

還有什麼？

Right.

對

Nothing.

什麼都沒有

Right.

對

Like, okay, that's, maybe you should know more than that.

好吧，也許你應該知道更多。

You know, yeah.

你知道，是的。

Yeah, and that is the Wolf-Mind virus.

沒錯，這就是狼心病毒。

Yeah.

是啊

Exactly, yeah.

沒錯

No, no, no, exactly.

不，不，不，完全正確。

It's like, you know, the, you know, slavery is obviously a horrific institution, but we should still know more about George Washington than that.

這就像，你知道，奴隸制顯然是一個可怕的制度，但我們對喬治-華盛頓的瞭解應該比這更多。

And by the way, one that was practiced all over the world, forever, since the beginning of time, by every race, including people of color.

順便說一句，自古以來，包括有色人種在內的所有種族都在全世界範圍內實行這種習俗。

I'm sorry to tell you that.

我很遺憾地告訴你。

It's huge in the Bible.

這在《聖經》中非常重要。

Absolutely.

當然可以。

The Bible loves it.

聖經》喜歡它。

We're, I, I, I,

我們，我，我，我、

Really?

真的嗎？

Yes, they're quite strict about, like, you know, don't take someone else's slave and that kind of thing.

是的，他們的要求很嚴格，比如，你知道，不能搶別人的奴隸之類的。

Right, but no one ever says, just don't do it.

沒錯，但從來沒有人說過 "別這麼做"。

They don't, they don't.

他們沒有，他們沒有。

They don't, at no point does it say slavery's bad in the Bible.

聖經》中沒有任何一處說奴隸制是不好的。

No, no, no.

不，不，不

They do not condemn it at all.

他們根本沒有譴責。

They just, so, so it's.

他們只是，所以，所以它的。

But Twitter is not doing bad, right?

但 Twitter 做得並不差，不是嗎？

I mean, I saw today that Tucker Carlson recently fired.

我是說，我今天看到塔克-卡爾森最近被解僱了。

You were just on his show and he lost his job, so I hope this isn't an old one.

你剛上過他的節目，他丟了工作，所以我希望這不是一個老問題。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

But Tucker, what are you, the angel of death that you've gone around?

但是塔克，你是什麼？ 你是繞來繞去的死亡天使嗎？

Yeah, no, exactly.

是的，不，沒錯。

I'm not, I'm not the typhoid Mary of talk shows.

我不是，我不是脫口秀裡的傷寒瑪麗。

No.

不

But for some reason, people just get fired after that.

但出於某種原因，人們在那之後就被解僱了。

But his rant yesterday, or today on Twitter,

但他昨天或今天在 Twitter 上的咆哮、

I think it was yesterday or something, or a couple days ago?

我想是昨天還是什麼時候，或者幾天前？

It did more than every cable news monologue or something like that.

它比每條有線電視新聞的獨白或類似內容都要精彩。

Is that right?

是這樣嗎？

Well, Twitter has a tremendous audience.

推特擁有大量閱聽人。

So there's 250 million people that spend an average of half an hour a day on Twitter.

是以，有 2.5 億人平均每天在 Twitter 上花費半小時。

So it's about 120 to 130 million user hours per day, and it's been increasing.

是以，每天大約有 1.2 億到 1.3 億個用戶小時，而且還在不斷增加。

So, we didn't do anything.

所以，我們什麼也沒做。

To be clear, we did nothing special whatsoever.

說白了，我們沒做什麼特別的事。

I learned about it afterwards that he had posted something on Twitter.

事後我才知道，他在 Twitter 上發佈了一些消息。

So it's just that Twitter has a lot of people's attention.

是以，推特吸引了很多人的注意力。

So, and it tends to be the people that are, that read a lot or are interested in current events and generally are pretty influential.

是以，這往往是那些經常閱讀或對時事感興趣的人，他們一般都很有影響力。

But most of the people who tweet are the same people, right?

但大多數發微博的人都是一樣的人，不是嗎？

I mean, the people who actually tweet, it's mostly just reading it.

我的意思是，真正發推特的人，大多隻是在閱讀。

I feel like that's, I've read this many times, that's a very small percentage of the people on Twitter.

我覺得，我已經讀過很多次了，這只是推特上很小一部分人的觀點。

And it seems like, see, here's why I don't tweet anymore, because you may be the mayor of TweetTown now.