I'm Angela Duckworth.

我是安吉拉-達克沃斯

I'm Mike Monn.

我是邁克-蒙恩

And you're listening to No Stupid Questions.

您正在收聽的是《沒有愚蠢的問題》。

Today on the show, how fixed is personality?

今天的節目，個性有多固定？

I take comfort in knowing that I am just like everyone else in deluding myself.

我很欣慰，因為我知道我和其他人一樣，都在自欺欺人。

Angela, today we have a fascinating question about how fixed personality is.

安吉拉，今天我們有一個關於固定人格的精彩問題。

Mike, you and I have been talking about personality so much lately.

邁克，你和我最近經常談到個性。

I know, mostly because I think I need a better one.

我知道，主要是因為我覺得我需要一個更好的。

No!

不

But you know what?

但你知道嗎？

I think a lot of us feel that way.

我想我們很多人都有這種感覺。

Okay, well let me read you this question from Joshua Curtis.

好的，讓我來讀一下約書亞-柯蒂斯（Joshua Curtis）提出的問題。

Hi Mike and Angela.

嗨，邁克和安吉拉。

I often wonder how fixed personality is.

我經常在想，性格到底有多固定？

I feel that while my personality has definite patterns, how pronounced those patterns are can vary given the environment that I'm in.

我覺得，雖然我的性格有明確的模式，但這些模式的明顯程度會隨著我所處的環境而變化。

This seems to be true both in the short term, for example, I have different personality at work than at home, but also true in the longer term.

這在短期內似乎是正確的，例如，我在工作時的性格與在家時不同，但在長期內也是正確的。

My personality is definitely different now that I'm in my late 30s compared to when I was in college.

我現在 30 多歲了，性格肯定和大學時不一樣。

This makes me wonder if personality tests should not be used to tell us about fixed traits that we have, but rather as tools for working to become closer to the people we would like to be.

這讓我想到，性格測試是否不應該用來告訴我們我們所擁有的固定特質，而應該作為一種工具，讓我們努力變得更接近我們希望成為的人。

Are there things we can do to intentionally change our personalities?

我們可以做些什麼來有意改變自己的性格嗎？

Thanks Joshua Curtis.

謝謝約書亞-柯蒂斯。

Can I just thank Joshua because I feel like we live in a particular cultural moment where self-improvement is a universal hobby.

請允許我感謝約書亞，因為我覺得我們生活在一個特殊的文化時代，在這個時代，自我提升是一種普遍的愛好。

And it is a timeless question, I mean, you know, philosophers and theologians of various types have been pondering character and how malleable it is since forever.

這是一個永恆的問題，我的意思是，你知道，各種類型的哲學家和神學家從古至今一直在思考性格以及性格的可塑性。

So Joshua, great question.

約書亞，問得好。

Before we jump totally into Joshua's question, I think it would help to just define, I mean, what is personality?

在我們深入探討約書亞的問題之前，我想我們應該先定義一下，我的意思是，什麼是個性？

Personality is something that psychologists would say, and this is very close to, I think, what most people would say who are not trained psychologists.

人格是心理學家會說的話，我想，這與大多數沒有受過心理訓練的人的說法非常接近。

Personality is the pattern of acting, thinking, and feeling that you have that is pretty consistent, and the emphasis is on pretty consistent, not perfectly consistent, pretty consistent across situations and across time.

人格是你的行為、思維和感覺模式，是相當一致的，重點是相當一致，而不是完全一致，是在不同情況下和不同時間內相當一致。

You know, your tendency to be cheerful or grim, your tendency to be talkative or shy, your tendency to be gritty or somebody who gives up easily on things.

你知道，你有開朗或陰沉的傾向，你有健談或害羞的傾向，你有堅韌或輕易放棄的傾向。

So when we talk about personality, the emphasis is on kind of the center of gravity of how we usually behave.

是以，當我們談論個性時，重點在於我們通常行為的重心。

Got it.

知道了

Here's where I'd love to get back to Joshua's question and almost segment into two parts.

在這裡，我很想回到約書亞的問題上來，幾乎可以抽成兩個部分。

One, how do our personalities change?

第一，我們的性格是如何變化的？

And then can we do things to intentionally change our personalities?

然後，我們能做些什麼來有意識地改變我們的個性嗎？

So I thought it may be interesting or maybe overly vulnerable, I don't know, to talk about how I think my personality has changed over time.

所以我覺得，談談我認為自己的性格是如何隨著時間的推移而改變的，也許會很有趣，也許會過於脆弱，我也不知道。

I would love that.

我很樂意。

And oh, this is so un-you, Mike.

哦，這也太不像你了，邁克。 And oh, this is so un -you, Mike.

Be vulnerable.

脆弱一點。

Tell me.

告訴我

This feels uncomfortable.

這感覺很不舒服。

Good.

很好。

And that's okay.

沒關係。

Let's get you out of your comfort zone.

讓我們帶你走出舒適區。

And I think maybe before we go into this, do you want to just mention, you've shared with me these big five personality traits just in their general sense, because I think that will help me talk through the changes in my personality.

我想，在我們討論這個問題之前，你是否想提一下，你已經和我分享了五大性格特徵的一般意義，因為我認為這將有助於我討論我性格中的變化。

Your little story of young Mike Mon before you became Mike Mon of today.

在你成為今天的邁克-蒙之前，你年輕時的邁克-蒙的小故事。

Yeah, for you and for Joshua and for anybody else who's curious about their own personality, it would be helpful to say on behalf of psychologists everywhere that there is an agreed-upon classification of personality traits.

是的，對於你，對於約書亞，對於其他任何對自己的個性感到好奇的人，我想代表所有的心理學家說，有一種公認的個性特徵分類法，這將會很有幫助。

And what I mean by agreed-upon is that if you go to University of Washington or you like go to Stanford or Yale or anywhere, all the psychologists there who teach intro psych will teach students that there are five major personality traits.

我所說的 "共識 "是指，如果你去華盛頓大學，或者斯坦福大學、耶魯大學或其他任何地方，那裡所有教授心理學入門的心理學家都會告訴學生，有五種主要的人格特質。

They're really personality trait families because they have a bunch of very specific traits within them, but there are these five families of personality traits that have been identified across the lifespan.

它們是真正的人格特質家族，因為其中有許多非常具體的特質，但有五個人格特質家族已在整個生命週期中被確認。

So Josh being in, I guess he said his late 30s, like true for Joshua, but also true for me who I'm in my mid-50s and my mom who's 89 and even a 15-year-old, et cetera.

喬舒亞今年 30 多歲，我猜他是這麼說的，這對喬舒亞來說是真的，但對我來說也是真的，我已經 50 多歲了，我媽媽 89 歲了，甚至還有一個 15 歲的孩子，等等。

So true across the lifespan and also true across culture.

在人的一生中都是如此，在不同的文化中也是如此。

So on every civilized continent, you can give people personality inventories.

是以，在每個文明大陸上，你都可以給人們編制個性清單。

And when you look at how they respond, you find these five clusters of personality traits.

當你觀察他們的反應時，你會發現這五組人格特質。

So what are they?

它們是什麼？

There's an acronym that I find useful, OCEAN, O-C-E-A-N, and the five personality families.

有一個縮寫詞我覺得很有用，OCEAN，O-C-E-A-N，還有五種人格家族。

One is openness, openness to experience or open-mindedness, so that's the O.

一種是開放性，對經驗的開放性或開放的心態，這就是 O。

C is for conscientiousness, you know, color-coded spice racks and organized lives and so forth.

C 代表認真負責，你知道，調味品架用顏色編碼，生活井井有條等等。

Then there's E for extroversion.

E 代表外向型。

There's A for agreeableness.

A代表合群。

And the last one's a little bit of a downer, sorry, but the N is for neuroticism.

對不起，最後一個有點讓人沮喪，但 "N "代表神經質。

It's like a kind of an anachronistic term, but it's about being emotionally labile and also having a fair amount of negative emotion like anger, sadness, anxiety in your everyday experience.

這是個有點不合時宜的詞，但它指的是情緒易變，在你的日常經歷中也有相當多的負面情緒，比如憤怒、悲傷、焦慮。

So O-C-E-A-N.

所以是 O-C-E-A-N。

Okay, well, let's dive into the ocean of my personality.

好了，讓我們一起進入我的個性海洋吧。

That was such a lame.

太遜了

Yes.

是的。

Let's get into the ocean.

我們下海吧

So tell me.

那麼告訴我

I'm so curious.

我太好奇了

Well, I tried to think through, because again, you've shared this ocean idea with me before.

好吧，我試著想了想，因為你以前也和我分享過這個海洋的想法。

So I tried to go through where maybe I was spiking.

所以，我試著去看看自己可能在哪些方面出現了問題。

And so as a kid, I would say openness.

是以，作為一個孩子，我會說 "開放"。

I was carefree.

我無憂無慮。

I was very creative, very playful, as far as I remember it, but somewhat introverted and could be kind of shy.

在我的記憶中，我很有創造力，很愛玩，但有些內向，可能有點害羞。

Interesting.

有意思

As a teenager, I think conscientiousness took over and I was probably overly serious.

在青少年時期，我認為自覺性佔據了上風，我可能過於嚴肅了。

I was very diligent.

我非常勤奮。

And I thought maybe if I did everything right, then no one could criticize and then I just fit in.

我想，也許只要我做的一切都對，就沒有人會責備我，我就能融入其中。

As a college student, it was kind of interesting because I think agreeableness and extroversion took over in me.

作為一名大學生，這有點有趣，因為我認為合意和外向在我身上佔了上風。

I love college.

我愛大學

And I was very social and out there all the time.

我非常善於交際，經常出去玩。

I also did a two-year mission for my church.

我還為我的教會做了兩年的傳教工作。

And I think that was the first time I felt like I 100% belonged.

我想那是我第一次感覺到自己百分之百的歸屬感。

Where did you go?

你去哪兒了？

I think I should know this.

我想我應該知道這一點。

I went to upstate New York to Duanesburg, where Steven Dubner is from.

我去了紐約州北部的杜恩斯堡，史蒂文-杜伯納就來自那裡。

I always feel like when people say they go on a mission, it's some exotic location.

我總覺得，當人們說他們要去執行任務時，都會說是去某個異國他鄉。

You think of Korea, you think of Duanesburg, but people live there too.

你會想到韓國，你會想到杜安斯堡，但那裡也有人生活。

Yes.

是的。

You do not pick where you go.

你不能選擇去哪裡。

They just assign you.

他們只是指派給你。

And I, in retrospect, was thrilled with the assignment.

現在回想起來，我對這項任務感到非常興奮。

But I think that that was like a place where this extroversion, agreeableness.

但我認為，這就像是一個地方 這種外向性，合群性。

I was kind of at my peak.

我當時正處於巔峰狀態。

And coming home from that experience, I think I was lost for a little while.

從那次經歷回家後，我想我迷失了一段時間。

I was very outwardly open and happy and extroverted.

我的外表非常開朗、快樂、外向。

But inwardly, I had some layers that I never let anybody in on.

但在內心深處，我有一些從未讓人瞭解的層面。

Out of, I don't know if it was insecurity or self-preservation.

我不知道是出於不安全感，還是出於自我保護。

This is a dumb example, but I think maybe signifies how my personality changed.

這是一個很蠢的例子，但我覺得也許能說明我的性格是如何改變的。

I love football.

我愛足球。

I would go to football games.

我會去看足球比賽。

And in my earlier years, if your team would score a touchdown, you would celebrate and be super happy.

在我早年的時候，如果你的球隊觸地得分，你就會慶祝，超級開心。

Yeah.

是啊

There was a period of maybe 10 years where I'd be watching a football game.

大概有 10 年的時間，我一直在看足球比賽。

My team would score the touchdown and everyone around me is high-fiving and chest bumping.

我的球隊會觸地得分，我周圍的每個人都在擊掌、撞胸。

And I would just sit there waiting to see if there was a flag.

我就坐在那裡等著看有沒有旗子。

Like I couldn't let myself enjoy the moment.

就像我無法讓自己享受這一刻。

And then I would relax when I saw that we really did score.

當我看到我們真的得分時，我就會放鬆下來。

And then it was just kind of like steady state, even rather than like engaged.

然後，它就像一種穩定狀態，甚至不像參與。

Interesting.

有意思

This is where I think I have changed most recently, is that my whole life has sort of opened up.

這是我覺得自己最近變化最大的地方，因為我的整個人生都豁然開朗了。

Like, I'm really happy again.

就像，我真的又開心起來了。

I laugh more freely.

我笑得更開懷了。

I'm much more comfortable with myself and who I am.

我對自己和自己的身份更加自信了。

And maybe the peaks and valleys and spikes are only observable to me, but I feel like they've changed pretty substantially.

也許只有我才能觀察到這些波峰、波谷和波峰，但我覺得它們已經發生了很大的變化。

And maybe that's not just personality, but my ability to deal with self and the world.

也許這不僅僅是個性，而是我處理自我和世界的能力。

But I think I've seen openness, extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness increase significantly and neuroticism probably decreased significantly.

但我認為，我看到開放性、外向性、合意性、自覺性有了顯著提高，而神經質可能有了顯著下降。

How old are you?

你多大了？

I can't remember.

我記不清了。

I'm 41.

我 41 歲了。

Oh, you said that in a kind of like Eeyore way.

哦，你說得有點像屹耳。

I actually love my life.

事實上，我熱愛我的生活。

But sometimes I think, wow, if I had the knowledge and perspective and experience now and could plug that into a 25-year-old, I would be so much better.

但有時我會想，哇，如果我現在擁有這些知識、觀點和經驗，並能把它們用到一個 25 歲的人身上，我一定會好很多。

Oh my gosh.

我的天啊

Don't we all?

我們不都是這樣嗎？

I know.

我知道

So let me ask you this.

那我問你

You're 41.

您是 41 歲。

You have looked back upon your childhood as a little boy all the way up through your teens, your 20s, and your 30s, and you see a lot of change.

回首童年、少年、20 歲和 30 歲，你看到了許多變化。

A lot of that is positive.

其中很多都是積極的。

There are nuances, but there's a maturation, if you will, of some of these dimensions of personality that you're happy with.

雖然有細微差別，但可以說，你對自己性格中的某些方面感到滿意，這也是一種成熟。

When you look forward to your 40s and then beyond, like my decade and then, you know, Social Security decade and the Medicare decade.

當你展望你的 40 多歲，然後再往後，就像我的十年，然後，你知道，社會保障十年和醫療保險十年。

When you phrase it that way, how can they not look forward?

你這樣說，他們怎麼能不向前看呢？

Well, the term in science for like the next decade, they literally called the old old.

在接下來的十年裡，科學界的術語就叫 "老舊"。

Like one old was not enough.

好像一個老人還不夠似的。

They're like, there's the old and there's the old old.

他們就像，有老的老，有舊的舊。

Science needs rebranding.

科學需要重塑形象。

That's terrible.

太可怕了

I know.

我知道

They need a whole marketing department for sure.

他們肯定需要一個完整的營銷部門。

But when you look forward to the future, Mike, do you think you're going to change in the future?

但是，當你展望未來時，邁克，你認為你將來會改變嗎？

Or do you think you've kind of reached who Mike Mohn is?

或者你認為你已經瞭解了邁克-莫恩是什麼樣的人？

Like what's your just untutored intuition about how stable your personality is now compared to the past?

比如，與過去相比，你現在的性格有多穩定，你的直覺是什麼？

I would hope to continue improving in increments, but I don't think there's going to be a massive shift at this point.

我希望能繼續逐步提高，但我認為目前不會有大的轉變。

Okay.

好的

Well, I think that's pretty consistent with what is sometimes called the end of history illusion.

我認為這與所謂的 "歷史終結幻覺 "是一致的。

Doesn't that sound kind of dire?

聽起來是不是有點可怕？

Well, when you say illusion, I feel like I'm just tricking myself immediately.

好吧，當你說幻覺時，我覺得我只是在立刻欺騙自己。

But there's good news.

不過也有好消息。

I think especially given what you said about your aspirations, which I think we all have, we would all want to continue to grow and to learn and to become even better people than we are now.

我認為，特別是考慮到你所說的你的願望，我想我們都有，我們都希望繼續成長和學習，成為比現在更好的人。

But a lot of us have a sense, and I do, you know, if you ask me, like, do you think you'll be a different person when you're 59 or 61?

但我們很多人都有一種感覺，我也有，你知道，如果你問我，比如，你覺得你59歲或61歲的時候會變成另一個人嗎？

I think the intuitive answer that I would give you is like, no, I'm pretty much me.

我想我會給你的直觀答案是，不，我就是我自己。

Right.

對

You know, I could tell you how I was different when I was a cheerleader and I was in high school.

你知道，我可以告訴你我在高中當啦啦隊長時有什麼不同。

But like now I am Angela.

但就像現在，我是安吉拉。

And this is called the end of history illusion.

這就是所謂的歷史終結幻覺。

And you're right, the term illusion or bias is a pretty good tip off that what psychologists are pointing to is a mistake that we're making cognitively.

你說得對，"錯覺 "或 "偏見 "是一個很好的提示，心理學家指出的是我們在認知上犯的一個錯誤。

And here I should accredit the coiners of the phrase.

在此，我應該感謝這句話的創造者。

So that's Jordy Quidbeck and then Dan Gilbert and Tim Wilson.

這就是喬迪-奎德貝克，然後是丹-吉爾伯特和蒂姆-威爾遜。

They published this article about a decade ago.

大約十年前，他們發表了這篇文章。

And what they did was they measured the personalities using a standard inventory of personality and also the values and preferences of more than 19,000 adults who ranged in age from 18 to 68.

他們所做的是，使用標準的人格清單來測量人格，同時還測量了 19000 多名年齡在 18 歲到 68 歲之間的成年人的價值觀和偏好。

And they very simply asked them to report how much they thought they had changed in the past decade.

他們非常簡單地要求他們報告他們認為自己在過去十年中發生了多大變化。

So similar to my Mike Mon interrogation, but just in the last 10 years and or to predict how much they would change in the following decade.

這與我對邁克-蒙的審問很相似，但只是在過去的 10 年裡，或者預測他們在接下來的 10 年裡會發生多大變化。

And essentially what they found in this study was that young people, middle aged people, older people, everybody believed that they had changed a lot in the past.

他們在這項研究中發現，無論是年輕人、中年人還是老年人，每個人都認為自己在過去發生了很大的變化。

But then when you ask them the parallel question about the next decade, universally people do not forecast changing very much at all.

但是，當你問他們關於未來十年的問題時，人們普遍預測變化不大。

Like they're like, oh, now I'm me.

就像他們說，哦，現在我是我了。

So if at every decade you're like, oh, I'm done, I have finally become who I am.

所以，如果每過十年，你就會想，哦，我完了，我終於成為了我自己。

But then when you look at the data and there is change in every decade, then people are being pessimistic in their forecast.

但當你查看數據，發現每十年都有變化時，人們的預測就會變得悲觀。

We have the false sense that we're done changing.

我們錯誤地認為，我們已經完成了改變。

But if we could like vault you into the future and show you yourself 10 years from now, you will have changed more than you think you will.

但是，如果我們能把你帶到未來，讓你看到 10 年後的自己，你的變化會比你想象的更大。

Well, I take comfort in knowing that I am just like everyone else in diluting myself.

好吧，我很欣慰，因為我知道我和其他人一樣，也在稀釋自己。

Yeah, I wonder if that is comforting.

是啊，我不知道這是否能讓人感到安慰。

I guess it is in a way.

我想在某種程度上是的。

No, it's not that comforting.

不，沒那麼舒服。

It's more like, OK, I fell into the trap completely.

這更像是說，好吧，我完全掉進陷阱裡了。

Let me read you this one thing, and I'm curious to get your take on it in context of what we've just said.

讓我給你讀一件事，我很想知道你在我們剛才所說的背景下對這件事的看法。

So I listened to a talk by a Cambridge University psychologist named Brian Little.

於是，我聽了劍橋大學一位名叫布萊恩-利特爾的心理學家的演講。

He basically says that rank order doesn't change.

他基本上是說，等級順序不會改變。

So he said, if you go back to your sixth grade reunion, the rank order of people on these different dimensions stays relatively the same.

所以他說，如果你回到六年級的同學聚會，人們在這些不同維度上的排名順序會相對保持不變。

And the kid who is the class clown, maybe he has a more sophisticated sense of humor than in sixth grade now that he's 36, but he's probably still the one cracking the jokes.

而那個在班裡當小丑的孩子，現在已經 36 歲了，也許他的幽默感比小學六年級時更成熟了，但他可能還是那個開笑話的人。

And so his point was, yeah, we all change over time, but probably where you fit relative to maybe your peers or others stays at least relatively consistent.

是以，他的觀點是，是的，我們都會隨著時間的推移而改變，但可能你相對於你的同齡人或其他人的位置至少會保持相對一致。

OK, love Brian Little.

好吧，我喜歡布萊恩-利特爾。

Super love Brian Little.

超級喜歡布萊恩-利特爾。

Don't agree.

不同意。

I mean, I'd have to debate him on this and I could because he's awesome and he's fun to debate with.

我的意思是，我必須和他辯論這個問題，我可以，因為他很棒，和他辯論很有趣。

But rank order does get to be quite stable in about your late middle age.

但到了中年後期，等級順序確實會變得相當穩定。

What's late middle age?

什麼是中年晚期？

Fifties or so.

五十年代左右

But if you did this hypothetical example, like think of your sixth grade class and then at the end of high school and imagine doing it then in your like 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s, at what point would the shuffling with the rank ordering like be zero?