You need to move forward as much as possible.

你需要儘可能地向前邁進。

Actually, semiconductor is an ecosystem.

事實上，半導體是一個生態系統。

There's no single company can do it alone.

沒有任何一家公司能單獨做到這一點。

Why are countries racing to build out chip manufacturing?

各國為何競相發展芯片製造業？

My next guests represent the semiconductor industry.

下一位嘉賓是半導體行業的代表。

And of course, they say that the subsidies and attention being given to chip manufacturers is critical.

當然，他們還說，對芯片製造商的補貼和關注至關重要。

Laith Altamimi is president of the organization CIMI in Europe.

Laith Altamimi 是歐洲 CIMI 組織的主席。

That's an industry trade group.

那是一個行業貿易團體。

His colleague Terry Tsao is president for the organization for Taiwan.

他的同事 Terry Tsao 是該組織臺灣地區的主席。

That island, of course, being home to the world's most important chip manufacturer, TSMC.

當然，該島是全球最重要的芯片製造商臺積電的所在地。

Well, TSMC is now building a new plant in Germany and it has secured a promise for 10 billion euros in public money to do it.

現在，臺積電正在德國建造一座新工廠，並獲得了 100 億歐元的公共資金支持。

I began by asking Laith how he responds to criticisms that that money is too much.

一開始，我問萊斯如何迴應關於錢太多的責備。

Germany is paving the way towards, I think, the launch of the European Chips Act, which was also along with the US Chips Act and many other chips acts across the world.

我認為，德國正在為《歐洲芯片法案》的出臺鋪平道路，該法案也與美國的《芯片法案》和世界上許多其他芯片法案一起出臺。

They became not only instrumental for Europe to maintain this competitive advantage, but also it became also instrumental in really introducing this global collaborative approach in order to work together.

它們不僅有助於歐洲保持這種競爭優勢，而且還有助於真正引入這種全球合作方法，以便共同開展工作。

So for Europe to reach, for the European vision to reach 20% by 2030, you need such aggressive investment.

是以，歐洲要想在 2030 年達到 20% 的目標，就需要如此積極的投資。

You need to move forward as much as possible.

你需要儘可能地向前邁進。

And I think Germany started, absolutely, but also you look at, again, even the TSMC investment topic, automotive is the key business model that combines the two.

我認為德國已經開始了，當然，但你再看看臺積電的投資話題，汽車是將兩者結合起來的關鍵業務模式。

And Germany is a powerhouse in automotive.

德國是汽車強國。

But also if you look at other countries, they also very quickly learned how to do that and then followed suit.

但是，如果你看看其他國家，它們也很快學會了如何這樣做，然後紛紛效仿。

You know, the ST Global Foundries, 5 billion investment, you know, the Poland, Intel back end of line, Ireland with the Intel advanced tech.

你知道，ST Global Foundries 投資 50 億美元，在波蘭、英特爾後端生產線、愛爾蘭採用英特爾先進技術。

So it's imperative for Europe to invest because of the timing that is needed in order to be relevant in the exponential growth.

是以，歐洲的投資勢在必行，因為要想在指數級增長中佔有一席之地，就必須把握時機。

But again, is it just to secure these critical components or is this something that they can truly be manufacturers of in a European capacity?

但同樣，這是否只是為了確保這些關鍵部件的安全，還是它們真的能以歐洲製造商的身份製造這些部件？

A lot of people would point to other industries that Germany excels at, automotives, you mentioned, chemicals, optics, things like that.

很多人都會提到德國擅長的其他行業，如你提到的汽車、化工、光學等等。

Some critics would say this isn't really the right place to put all of that money.

有些評論家會說，把這些錢放在這裡並不合適。

I disagree.

我不同意。

I think, so you see again, the TSMC investment.

我想，你又看到了臺積電的投資。

So this is significant investment, you know, and then they come and they invest in Europe, in Dresden, because Germany, as well as other European countries, they have a very well established strategic ecosystem in the microelectronics in terms of like talent, materials, equipment, all of that.

是以，這是一筆巨大的投資。然後，他們來到歐洲，在德累斯頓投資，因為德國和其他歐洲國家一樣，在微電子領域擁有非常完善的戰略生態系統，如人才、材料、設備等。

So with that, the investment is in order of billions of dollars.

是以，投資額高達數十億美元。

So it's not a small amount.

所以這不是一個小數目。

So with that, you need to do all the due diligence to make sure that you choose the right location, because as we had TSMC groundbreaking in August, mass production in 2027.

是以，你需要盡職盡責，確保選擇正確的地點，因為臺積電已於 8 月份破土動工，將於 2027 年量產。

So this needs to be at the very accelerated rate to be relevant and to have return on investment.

是以，這需要以非常快的速度進行，這樣才有意義，才有投資回報。

Where do you look?

你去哪裡找？

You look at where the best investment is made.

你要看哪裡的投資最合適。

And again, if you couple the ecosystem, the incentive Germany is giving, the automotive, the industrial, all of the above, these all come together to make that investment very relevant, and that maintains Europe's competitive advantage in the global supply chain.

同樣，如果將生態系統、德國給予的激勵、汽車、工業等所有這些因素結合在一起，就會使投資變得非常有意義，從而保持歐洲在全球供應鏈中的競爭優勢。

Terry Lake touched on.

Terry Lake 談到。

Make some additional comment.

發表一些補充意見。

I think this is not just only support TSMC or the Intel itself.

我認為這不僅僅是支持臺積電或英特爾本身。

Actually, it's also connected to the end market or the end product, which will be beneficial to European brand.

其實，這也與終端市場或終端產品有關，對歐洲品牌有利。

At the same time, like our conversation earlier, actually, semiconductor is an ecosystem.

同時，就像我們之前的談話一樣，實際上，半導體是一個生態系統。

There's no single company can do it alone.

沒有任何一家公司能單獨做到這一點。

So actually, those investments will also beneficial to all the ecosystem supply chain, which is most of the supplier probably will be European supplier.

是以，實際上，這些投資也將有利於所有生態系統供應鏈，其中大部分供應商可能都是歐洲供應商。

Also, they create a job, will be good, beneficial to the Europe in general.

此外，它們還能創造就業機會，對整個歐洲都有好處。

So it look like just two single company, but actually, it definitely will have the ripple effect, not only to the end product, but also the entire industry or the supply chain, which will be also beneficial to the entire EU.

是以，這看起來只是兩家單一的公司，但實際上，它肯定會產生連鎖反應，不僅會影響最終產品，還會影響整個行業或供應鏈，這也將有利於整個歐盟。

That's my view about that.

這就是我的看法。

I wanted to touch on something.

我想說點什麼。

Leif mentioned the talent.

勒夫提到了人才。

He said that the talent is here, and yet we know that Intel, TSMC are probably going to struggle to find some of the people they need.

他說，人才就在這裡，但我們知道英特爾和臺積電可能很難找到他們需要的一些人才。

Can you talk about that, what Taiwanese companies are seeing when they look at finding the talent they need?

您能談談臺灣企業在尋找所需人才時看到了什麼嗎？

Because this is a very intensive process, correct?

因為這是一個非常密集的過程，對嗎？

Sure, sure.

當然，當然。

Yeah, first of all, that's how I think talent is very essential for the industry.

是的，首先，我認為人才對這個行業至關重要。

So that's how Taiwan and this company, they're also by this like a joint collaboration.

這就是臺灣和這家公司的合作方式。

We can also train or also like share how Taiwanese company work for the semiconductor industry.

我們還可以培訓或分享臺灣公司在半導體行業的工作方式。

Earlier, we have been doing a forum, we heard about the TSMC in Europe.

早些時候，我們一直在做一個論壇，我們聽說了臺積電在歐洲的情況。

They send a lot to the engineer to Taiwan.

他們送了很多工程師去臺灣。

So they get the first hand like a training how the TSMC work.

這樣，他們就能親身體驗臺積電的工作方式，就像接受培訓一樣。

I think there'll be very good beginning for the entire semiconductor manufacturers just like 50 years ago, how Taiwan semiconductor begin.

我認為，整個半導體制造商將會有一個非常好的開端，就像 50 年前臺灣半導體的開端一樣。

We, the first batch of the engineer, we are being sent to US, we learn from RCA.

我們，第一批工程師，被派往美國，向 RCA 學習。

That's how the Taiwan semiconductor begin to nowaday.

這就是如今臺灣半導體的發展歷程。

So the talent exchange by this collaboration definitely will nourish the talent exchange.

是以，通過這種合作進行的人才交流肯定會滋養人才交流。

And also, as I know, the Taiwan government also have the program to support the European engineer.

另外，據我所知，臺灣政府也有支持歐洲工程師的計劃。

They can come to Taiwan to do some semiconductor training or education.

他們可以來臺灣接受半導體培訓或教育。

In the end, they can decide they either want to stay in Taiwan or back to Europe.

最後，他們可以決定是留在臺灣還是回歐洲。

I think there will be a very good talent exchange program to come from this very good marriage.

我認為，這樁非常好的姻緣將產生一個非常好的人才交流項目。

At the same time, of course, we as an industry association, we put lots of the effort in terms of the education program.

當然，與此同時，作為行業協會，我們在教育計劃方面也投入了大量精力。

So we also put a lot of the training program on the table from like a high school, university, or even we have the veterans program or something like that.

是以，我們也把很多培訓計劃放在桌上，比如高中、大學，甚至我們有退伍軍人計劃或類似的計劃。

From industry association, we also try to contribute in terms of the talent nourish.

從行業協會來說，我們也努力在人才培養方面做出貢獻。

But last but not the least, lots of the advanced manufacturer, actually they need most of the factory.

最後但並非最不重要的是，許多先進的製造商，實際上他們需要大部分工廠。

They now become like a, not really need the people inside the fact.

他們現在變得像一個，並不真正需要裡面的人的事實。

So it's more like you can do the remote or lots of...

是以，它更像是你可以做的遠程或大量的...

You can work remotely on making semiconductors.

您可以遠程工作，製造半導體。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

Some process they can actually for the fab inside, there's no need for the people to like manage or operate the equipment.

有些工藝實際上可以在工廠內部進行，不需要人去管理或操作設備。

So that's also the area.

是以，這也是一個區域。

We make sure we train the right size of the right talent can do the most important job.

我們確保培養的人才規模適當，能夠勝任最重要的工作。

May I add, I think absolutely.

請允許我補充一句，我認為完全正確。

And you had some examples today, like the student exchange program between T.U.

你今天也舉了一些例子，比如東京大學和紐約大學之間的學生交流項目。

Dresden and the Taiwan University.

德累斯頓和臺灣大學。

So CENI as a global industry association, it is number one priority at our CEO's level to drive the talent program worldwide.

是以，CENI 作為一個全球性的行業協會，在我們的首席執行官一級，推動全球人才計劃是頭等大事。

We have been very active in creating digital e-learning platforms in all different languages.

我們一直在積極創建各種語言的數字電子學習平臺。

So that this is students can learn, young engineers can learn digitally, like with these e-learning platforms.

這樣，學生們就可以學習，年輕的工程師們就可以通過數字化方式學習，比如使用這些電子學習平臺。

The additional to that, there has been a lot of also like complimentary student exchange programs so that you could elevate.

此外，還有很多像免費學生交流計劃這樣的活動，讓你可以提升自己。

I think the industry campaign is the, if you like, is really the bottleneck with the students.

我認為，如果你願意的話，行業活動確實是學生的瓶頸。

So what CENI has been doing is we start with schools.

是以，CENI 一直在做的是從學校開始。

We start with what we call high tech U at school levels.

我們首先在學校層面開展所謂的高科技 U。

We do talent forms across universities, across, let's say for Europe, across Europe.

我們在各大學、各地區，比方說在歐洲，在整個歐洲開展人才培養工作。

So that we promote the industry student levels and connect the industry with the academia.

這樣，我們就能促進行業學生水準的提高，並將行業與學術界聯繫起來。

In addition to that, we've also like triggered like a university network, which is a board, an educational board that focuses on learning, but also provide content, but also work with the academia in order to provide the industry, not only university level, but also STEM level and beyond.

除此之外，我們還建立了大學網絡，這是一個董事會，一個教育董事會，專注於學習，同時也提供內容，同時也與學術界合作，以便為行業提供內容，不僅是大學層面的內容，還有 STEM 層面的內容，甚至更多。

And you're confident that when these, as these companies like TSMC begin to expand and move over that the talent will be there?

你有信心，當這些公司（如臺積電）開始擴張和遷移時，人才會在那裡嗎？

Is it still an open question mark right now?

現在還是一個未知的問號嗎？

I mean, across Germany, across Europe, there are concerns about labor right now.

我的意思是，在整個德國、整個歐洲，現在都在擔心勞動力問題。

I think now from either the Taiwan industry or Taiwan government, I think we are, of course, definitely heavily partnership with Germany, but not limited.

我認為，現在無論是從臺灣產業界還是臺灣政府來說，我認為我們與德國的合作當然非常緊密，但並不侷限於此。

So the, like, for example, East Europe, like very close to Germany, they also could be the talent port to support the entire, like EU, semiconductor manufacturing or the other countries around it, like Italy or France.

是以，比如東歐，比如非常靠近德國的地區，也可以成為支持整個歐盟半導體制造業或周邊其他國家（如意大利或法國）的人才港。

So we think Italy, we think Europe is from the holistic perspective or some talent could, even from the UK, which is not in the EU.

是以，我們認為意大利，我們認為歐洲是從整體的角度來看的，或者一些人才可以，甚至從英國，這不是在歐盟。

And even, you know, this is also goes to the point that it's not only industry and academia anymore, but also governments are needed as part of this collaboration.

甚至，你知道，這也說明了一個問題，即這種合作不再僅僅侷限於工業界和學術界，還需要政府的參與。

In terms of changing policy, things like that?

在改變政策等方面？

Exactly.

沒錯。

Policies to allow, you know, talent mobility across Europe, but also internationally.

制定政策，允許人才在歐洲以及國際範圍內流動。

So this is, so not one business model anymore, what you, but because of the number of, not only numbers, but also skills that are needed.

是以，這已經不再是一種商業模式，而是因為需要的不僅是數量，還有技能。

In terms of bringing those outside the EU.

在把歐盟以外的人帶進來方面。

Exactly.

沒錯。

Yeah, those talents inside.

是啊，裡面那些人才。

And diversity.

還有多樣性。

So we address all of these.

是以，我們要解決所有這些問題。

In addition to new talent, I think also the spotlight we put in assuming with our member companies is to retain the talent you have.

除了新人才，我認為我們與會員公司合作的重點還在於留住現有人才。

So that it's important that, A, you maintain your business strategies, but B, use high profile, high potential, high performers in your company to be the role models to the students and to other people like that can really accelerate, you know, the talent pipeline.

是以，重要的是，A，你要堅持你的商業戰略，但 B，利用你公司裡的高知名度、高潛力、高績效的人，成為學生和其他人的榜樣，這樣才能真正加速，你知道的，人才輸送管道。

Terry, I want to wrap up by asking you one thing.

特里，最後我想問你一件事。

This is a Taiwan, this event that we're speaking on the side of, this is really a Taiwan Expo, looking at Taiwan, Europe.

這是一個臺灣的活動，我們正在發言的這個活動，實際上是一個臺灣博覽會，著眼於臺灣和歐洲。

Yeah.

是啊

When we look at China right now, we know that there's a lot of advanced manufacturing that they're seeking right now.

放眼中國，我們知道他們目前正在尋求大量的先進製造業。

They're putting a lot more capital into a higher level of manufacturing, including semiconductors.

他們將更多的資金投入到更高水平的製造業，包括半導體。

What does that mean for the Taiwanese semiconductor sector?

這對臺灣半導體行業意味著什麼？

Is that a threat in the short term, near term, long term?

這是短期、近期還是長期的威脅？

How do you see that?

你怎麼看？

I think we, as a global industry association, we put more focus on the industry common challenge.

我認為，作為全球行業協會，我們更關注行業的共同挑戰。

I think there's no single country we should rule out if they have their intention to develop their own ecosystem or semiconductor industry at all.

我認為，如果一個國家有意發展自己的生態系統或半導體產業，我們就不應該將其排除在外。

However, according to current situation, I think all the sanctions definitely slow down for the China semiconductor industry process.

不過，從目前的情況來看，我認為所有的制裁措施肯定會減緩中國半導體產業的進程。

Because, like I mentioned, there's no single country or the region can do everything by their own.

因為，就像我提到的那樣，沒有一個國家或地區能獨自完成所有任務。

So definitely all the sanctions definitely make some impact for the China semiconductor industry development.

是以，所有制裁肯定會對中國半導體產業的發展造成一定影響。

And of course, China still with a very big market and also their determination.

當然，中國仍然擁有巨大的市場和決心。

So we should not underestimate their potential.

是以，我們不應低估他們的潛力。

So that is our view, to not exclude, but also pay much higher attention to see what's going on.

是以，我們的觀點是，不要排斥，但也要更多地關注，看看到底發生了什麼。

Terry Zhao, Leith Altamimi, thank you both.

Terry Zhao，Leith Altamimi，謝謝你們兩位。

Appreciate your time.

感謝您抽出時間。

Thank you very much.

非常感謝。