Get you to be yourself, get your machine, let's see what the machine is doing, and let's change the coping strategies.

讓你做自己、獲得你的機器，讓我們看看機器在做什麼，然後讓我們改變因應策略。

But the key to this would be...

但這其中的關鍵將是⋯⋯

So, if I'm 30 odd, you know, and I've got low self-esteem⏤I'm, you know, I'm 33, got low self-esteem, and I came to you, where would you begin with trying to help?

那麼，如果我 30 歲左右、自尊心低下——我 33 歲、自尊心低下，然後我去找你，你會怎麼開始幫忙？

And that low self-esteem was manifesting in abusive relationships, bad work relationships, very negative, sort of, feelings about myself,

而那低自尊是在虐待性關係、惡劣工作關係中展現，對於自己的極負面想法，

and maybe even some impulsive behaviors, you know, I'm... I'm eating too much or I'm, I don't know, whatever.

甚至還有一些衝動行為，我⋯⋯不知道，飲食過度之類的。

Where would you start with me?

你會從哪裡開始幫我？

OK, the first, I mean, just so people that say, "Oh, wow, that's a strange starting point."

好，首先，我先聲明，人們可能會說：「哇，那真是個奇怪的起始點。」

- I'm a doctor, so, the first is make sure you're actually OK, because⏤ - I'm OK.

- 我是個醫生，所以首先要確保你確實沒問題，因為—— - 我沒事。

... if someone were presenting with this, it could be an depression if⏤and that can present in many ways.

⋯⋯如果有人出現這樣的症狀，那可能是抑鬱，而抑鬱可能以很多種形式展現。

Typically, it's low mood and loss of pleasure in everything and loss of energy.

典型的是情緒低落、失去對一切的享受以及失去能量。

But that doesn't have to be, so I mustn't miss that.

但那不一定得這樣，所以我不能遺漏。

So, I would make sure your mind is not ill; you don't need treatment.

所以我會確保你的精神狀態無礙、你不需要治療。

Now, we assume that this is long-standing, and what you've done is you⏤what you described is a lot of maladaptive coping strategies.

現在，我們假設這是長期存在的，而你所做的是，描述了很多適應不良的應對策略。

So, I eat too much.

那麼，我吃太多東西。

Which you're probably comfort eating or it's just habitual stuff that you're just not, you know⏤or it could be you got so little self-esteem, I've seen this, you're almost punishing yourself.

你大概只是安慰性進食或只是習慣性行為，也有可能你自尊低落到幾乎在懲罰自己（我有看過這種狀況）。

You know, I don't deserve to... to eat well and I don't deserve to eat the right things.

你知道的，我不配⋯⋯吃好、不配吃對的東西。

So, I deserve to be overweight or I deserve to look like this.

所以我應該要過重、我的樣貌就應該是這樣。

So that could be the bottom of it, so I have to start⏤

所以那可能是根源，所以我得開始——

My starting point is exploration.

我的出發點是探索。

But the key to this would be to move all that to one side.

但這個關鍵會是把一且擺到一邊。

If you're in a reasonable place where you can actually communicate.

如果你在一個合理、實際可以溝通的地方。

If not, I'll let you express it all.

如果不是的話，我會讓你紓發一切。

It's important you get it off your chest.

重要的是你傾吐一切心事。

If you've got it, you say, "I don't need to do that", what I do is what I've said in the book here.

如果你有那個環境，然後說：「我不需要那麼做」，我會做我在書中說的事。

In "A Path Through the Jungle", I explained: The starting point is get a blank piece of paper and write down who you wanna be.

在《叢林小徑》這本書中，我解釋了：起始點是拿一張白紙，然後寫下你想成為什麼樣的人。

What behaviors do you want to have?

你想有哪些行為？

Let's define what you want, not what you don't want, not what you're experiencing; don't start with the treacle⏤I call that the treacle.

讓我們定義你想要的，而不是不想要或是正在經歷的，不要從「糖蜜」開始（我稱之為「糖蜜」）。

Start with a blank piece of paper and then write down the person you wanna be.

從一張白紙開始，然後寫下你想要成為什麼人。

I wanna be... I wanna be really confident.

我想要⋯⋯我想要很有自信。

I want to have a... a girlfriend or a boyfriend, I want to get married, I want to have kids.

我想要擁有一個男友或女友、想要結婚、想要生子。

I want to work out every day, I want to eat really good food.

我想要每天都健身、吃很好的食物。

Right.

好。

So, what you're describing now is the human system.

好，你現在描述的是人類系統。

The great news is, when I ask you about the characteristics you've got.

好消息是在我問到你特點的時候。

So, "I want to be calm", "I want to be happy", "I want to be confident", "I...".

所以「我想要冷靜」、「我想要快樂」、「我想要有自信」、「我⋯⋯」。

That is you.

那都是你。

- That is you. Right. - How do you... how do you know it's me?

- 那是你，對。 - 你怎麼知道那是我？

Because if we were⏤we can't⏤surgically removing interference neuroscientifically, which we can see on functional MRI scanners,

因為如果我們可以（現實是不行）就神經科學觀點用手術移除干擾（這是拍核磁共振可以看到的），

if we remove the chimp and computer system, then you're completely in control of yourself.

如果我們移除「黑猩猩」和「電腦」系統，那你就完全地控制了自己。

So, you would choose to be calm, you would choose to be confident.

所以你會選擇冷靜、你會選擇有信心。

So, therefore, that's you⏤the human system can choose.

因此，那就是你，人類系統可以選擇。

What happens is when you choose to be calm, the chimp system interferes or the computer interferes, and throws shows to the world someone who's not calm.

當你選擇冷靜時，黑猩猩系統或電腦系統會干擾，然後展現一個不冷靜的人給世人。

So, it's very important to recognize who you are before we start.

所以在我們開始之前，辨識自己是誰是很重要的。

So, now, we've got a guy, you're not gonna write⏤

所以現在有一個人，你不會寫——

- No one ever writes "anxious". No one. - No.

- 從來不會有人寫下「焦慮」。沒有人。 - 對。

They say, "No, what I want to be is calm, collected, a good friend, have integrity."

他們會說：「不，我想要冷靜、泰然、當個好朋友，而且正直。」

That is you, if... if we didn't have interference in the machine.

那就是你，在沒有機器干擾的前提之下。

So, it's very crucial⏤this is the biggest point in the book.

所以那非常重要，這是書中最主要的一點。

The biggest point is to define yourself because now you've got⏤self-esteem can rise just on that alone.

最主要的一點是定義自己，因為你現在有了——自尊可以因為那一點而提升。

Once you've grasped that, you say, "Wow, what I'm presenting to the world is interference."

一但你掌握那一點，就會說：「哇，我向世界展示的是干擾。」

"It's not me. If I didn't have this machine, I would not have anxiety."

「這不是我，如果沒有這個機器，我就不會有焦慮感了。」

Because that's the system that you're saying⏤the human system⏤can't do anxiety.

但你提及的那個人類系統是不能負荷焦慮的。

It's not built to do that.

它不是用來做這件事的。

It's built to be rational and calm.

它才在的目的是理性和冷靜。

But what it wants to do and how it wants to present is a choice.

但它想做什麼、如何呈現都是一種選擇。

The chimp has no choice, the computer has no choice⏤the computer's programmed.

黑猩猩沒有選擇權，電腦也沒有，它經過了程式設計。

But these are interfering and presenting to the world someone who is not you.

但這些都在干擾，並向世界呈現一個不是你的樣貌。

So, it's very important to grasp that concept; that's my starting point.

所以掌握這個概念非常重要，那就是我的出發點。

Now, we've grasped that, we build on that.

現在已經掌握之後，就在這個基礎上發展。

So, now we... I know who you are.

所以現在我們⋯⋯我知道你是誰。

I... I'll say this: Sometimes when you're with a friend and you've been chatting a while, and maybe it's got late in the evening, and you've got a lot off your chest and you've discussed⏤you've calmed down.

我會說一件事：有時你和朋友在一起，聊了一段時間，可能聊到深夜，你傾訴了很多心事並討論之後平靜了下來。

And, sometimes, the real you presents, and suddenly, you feel at peace.

有時候，真實的你就會出現，你會突然感到平和感。

People often say, "I don't know, it's just then I felt totally relaxed and thought I've got perspective."

人們經常說：「我不知道，我只是在當時覺得完全放鬆，認為我有了新觀點。」

"I've gathered the world the way it is, I accept things are, and I've calmed down."

「我已經理解了世界的現狀、接受一切，然後冷靜下來了。」

And then, suddenly, you see the real person, and they've got morals and values⏤and not every human has.

然後你會突然看到了真正的人，擁有道德和價值觀，而這不是每個人都有的。

Sometimes the chimp's the good guy, some⏤you know, sometimes the human's not nice.

有時好人反而是黑猩猩，有時人並不會那麼友善。

So, I do get people who do not write, for example, who you are.

舉例而言，我的確遇到不會寫下自己是誰的人。

They don't write compassion, they don't write integrity; they don't care.

他們不會寫下同情心、誠信，他們一點都不關心。

And if I challenge and say, "You didn't put compassion", they say, "I don't⏤not bothered about that."

如果我挑戰他們並說：「你沒有寫同情心」，他們會說：「我不——絲毫不在意那點。」

So, I have to work out who you are, OK?

所以我必須搞清楚你是誰，懂嗎？

So, not everyone is gonna write the same things.

所以說，不是每個人都會寫下一樣的東西。

That's why I know it's you; we're not just your generic list.

這就是我知道這是你的原因，我們不隸屬一個一般的清單。

Because someone could just be virtue-signaling; because you're asking me to do it or because I want to be these people, but really, I'm a... I'm a bad guy, you know, I'm... I wanna hurt people.

因為某個人可能只是在釋放美德訊號，因為你要求我這麼做或是我想要成為那種人，但我現實上只是個壞人、想要傷害人。

- I'll tease it out; that's my job. - How d'y⏤how?

- 我會套出真相，那是我的工作。 - 怎麼做？

'Cause, again, then you look at evidence base and you look at remorse, you look at whether somebody compensates for mistakes, you look⏤

因為我重申，之後會觀察證據、悔意，評估某個人是否會彌補過錯，評估——

There's a lot of things⏤I want to see the history here, and then I'll challenge that and challenge it, so, that's a series of talks.

有很多東西，我想要看到他的歷史，然後我會不斷挑戰，所以會有一系列的對談。

So, often, we have a long time when we detain someone to... to explore this so we don't get fooled.

所以我們時常會長時間拘留某人，探索這一點以確保我們沒被愚弄。

Is this⏤you... you talk referencing much of your psychiatric work here within psych hospitals.

這是——你很常提及在精神病院的精神病學相關工作。

Yeah.

是的。

So, somebody is psychopathic, we... we⏤generally, everyone has a different version of what it is.

當一個人有精神病時，我們一般——每個人對於它的詮釋都不一樣。

For me, I neuroscientifically know there's certain tracks in the brain that are not really fully developed or don't function.

對我而言，我知道在神經面向，腦中有些部分未發育完全或無法運作。

And this produces someone without empathy, without remorse, without any conscience⏤these are classic.

這就產生了一個沒有同情心、沒有悔意、沒有任何良心的人，這些都是典型案例。

And so, I... I don't know that; I'm not a mind reader, I can't tell until people talk, you know, so, yes, they could deceive me.

我不知道那件事，因為我不會讀心術，人們開口前我都不會知道，所以他們的確可以欺騙我。

You know, I... I have to just go on what they tell me, but I can listen carefully to the words they use and listen to what they're saying and look at their past life events, and it starts to unravel.

我必須仰賴他們提供給我的資訊，但我可以仔細聽他們用的文字以及正在說的話，並觀察他們的過往事件，然後一切就會開始揭露。

So, eventually, you think, "OK, I know what I'm dealing with now."

所以最終你會想：「好，我現在知道我面對什麼了。」

So⏤but to be honest, people don't do that with me.

但說實話，人們對我並不這樣做。

What you tend to is⏤'cause I... I would, hopefully, set a scene where I don't care what you write.

你的傾向會做——因為我希望我可以設置一個前提，我並不關心你寫什麼。

I don't care what you want to do with your life.

我不在乎你生命中想做到什麼。

It's not for me; I'm not a judge.

那不是我的事，我不是法官。

I'm here as a doctor to explore this with you and get insights for yourself.

我是以醫生的身份在這裡與你探討這個問題，幫你更了解自己。

So, the most people, they're not a psychopathic.

所以說，大多數人都不是精神疾病患者。

We're decent people who've just got lost in the... the way the new science of our mind has tumbled us.

我們都是正直的人，只是迷失在腦中新科學使我們淪落的方式。

So, what I st⏤my starting point when you gave me all this was to say, let's write out the real you and let's start building ourselves on that and recognizing what is not us and let's start unpicking it.

所以當你跟我說這一切時，我的切入點是，寫下真實的你，然後在上面建構自己，並找出哪些點不是真的自己、開始抽絲剝繭。

So, let's just start saying, right, why would you have⏤and we went early about⏤low self-esteem?

所以我們開始就會釐清，你自尊為何低下，這我們稍早討論過。

Let's look at why you have that; first, it's natural and healthy.

讓我們先看看你為什麼會有這種情況：首先，它是自然和健康的。

That can help people; sometimes just saying that, to go, "That's amazing!"

單純地那樣說可以幫助人們，讓他們認為那真令人吃驚。

I feel better for knowing it's natural and healthy, maybe rubbish and unhelpful.

光是知道它是自然和健康的，即便它是垃圾且無益，我感覺也好一點了。

But at least I know it's healthy and there's not something wrong with me.

但至少我知道這是健康的，我沒有什麼問題。

Because the second you start saying, "Oh, I'm trying to please people and I can't say no," and... and you see that as being a weakness or a fault, we're in trouble again.

因為你一但開始說：「哦，我在努力取悅別人、不能拒絕」，你就會把這個看作是弱點或錯誤，自己又有麻煩上身了。

'Cause you're muddling yourself up with the machine.

因為你把自己和機器混為一談。

So, that's my starting point: Who are you? What's the machine doing?

所以這是我的出發點：你是誰？機器正在做什麼？

All of this⏤anything the chimp does, anything it does, is natural.

這一切、黑猩猩做的一切都是再自然不過的。

There's nothing you're gonna give me, even if it murders someone⏤that's what chimps do; they're violent.

你不能跟我多說什麼，即便牠謀殺某人，也是黑猩猩的天性，牠們是暴力的。

So, it... it's still illegal and not acceptable.

所以牠——當然，這還是非法且不能接受的。

But I'm saying, everything's natural, so, that puts us on a different way of looking at it.

但我想說的是，一切都很自然，所以那會改變我們的觀點。

Again, to try and give context to that, natural isn't always good.

重申，我試著給點背景資訊，自然不永遠是好的。

So, overeating is natural but it's not good.

所以暴飲暴食是自然的，但它不是好事。

And even, like, the classic one I always use with parents and teenagers, I always say if you've got⏤said it this morning with someone⏤

甚至是⋯⋯我常用在家長和青少年身上的例子是，我總會說（我今天早上就跟某人說過）：

if you've got a teenager who's got a tidy bedroom, that's who, I want to meet.

如果你家中有個房間整潔的青少年，我會想會會他。

If they have a messy bedroom, great, that's normal, you know?

如果他們的臥室很亂，那太好了，因為那很正常，懂嗎？

So, you're more concerned with teenagers that aren't being teenagers.

所以你會更擔憂的是不像青少年的青少年。

So, if this⏤you've got a teenager who never lies, then it's a bit worrying; maybe they're good at deceit.

所以如果有個從不說謊的青少年，那就有點令人擔心了，或是他們只是很會欺騙。

'Cause teenagers are learning to lie and they're learning to defend themselves, and is a natural at doing it.

因為青少年正在學習說謊並學習自衛，也自然而然地能這麼做。

It's not helpful and, hopefully, they grow out of it.

那是沒有用的，希望他們會擺脫這習慣。

But you've got to say what's natural and let's work with that to minimize risk or whatever we want to do.

但你必須點出什麼是自然的，然後利用它來將風險最小化或是達成我們想做的事。

So, it's a long-winded way of saying, you know, get you to be yourself, get your machine, let's see what the machine is doing, and let's change the coping strategies.

這其實是冗長地說明，讓你做自己、獲得你的機器，讓我們看看機器在做什麼，然後讓我們改變因應策略。

But accept the machine is the machine.

但接受機器就是機器。

If you love the "Diary of a CEO" brand and you watch this channel, please do me a huge favor, become part of the 15% of the viewers on this channel that have hit the subscribe button.

如果你喜歡 Diary of a CEO 這個品牌，也有在收看頻道，請幫我一個忙並成為 15% 已經點擊訂閱的頻道觀眾之一。

It helps us tremendously, and the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests.

那對我們會有極大幫助，而頻道越強大、來賓就會更大咖。