Like, traditional gender roles?

比如，傳統的性別角色？

Like give me an example, what's the traditional gender role for a woman?

比如給我舉個例子，女人的傳統性別角色是什麼？

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Woman takes care of the house takes care of the kids that says that.

女人要照顧好房子，要照顧好孩子，說的就是這個道理。

Where's the suitor that says a woman has to cook and clean?

哪裡有追求者說女人必須做飯和打掃衛生？

I always say, show me the baker chicken.

我總是說，讓我看看麵包師的雞。

Ia I'm just show me I just want to see it.

我只是給我看，我只是想看看。

I don't want to see it.

我不想看到它。

Mhm.

嗯。

Song and a friend of mine who comes to visit me all the time and we speak in Arabic and we had you know, we had a conversation about, you know, uh toxic masculinity and you don't know what that meant?

宋和我的一個朋友，他經常來看我，我們用阿拉伯語交談，我們有你知道的，我們有一個關於，你知道，呃有毒的男性氣質的談話，你不知道那是什麼意思？

He said, What does that mean?

他說，那是什麼意思？

I'm like?

我想？

And I try to explain said Yeah.

我試著解釋說，是的。

But what does it mean?

但這意味著什麼呢？

I mean, I'm I'm a man.

我是說，我是我是個男人。

It's all masculinity toxic.

這都是大男子主義的毒害。

I mean, no, all masculinity isn't toxic.

我的意思是，不，所有的男子氣概都不是有毒的。

If we said that all masculinity was toxic, we would deny the humanity the humility and the grace of our fathers and grandfathers.

如果我們說所有的男性氣質都是有毒的，我們就會否認人類的謙遜和我們的父輩和祖輩的優雅。

We would deny the excellence and beauty of our sons.

我們會否認我們兒子的優秀和美麗。

But I think that masculinity just like anything else can be portrayed in ways that are abusive.

但我認為，陽剛之氣就像其他東西一樣，可以用虐待的方式來描繪。

I think all things like in their extreme forms can be toxic when we talk about it.

我認為所有的事情，比如說極端的形式，當我們談論它的時候，都可能是有毒的。

Like as Muslims when it comes to like any really like, extreme radical thing that harms other people is toxic would you say the same in Pakistan growing up in Pakistan that the definition holds in Pakistan.

作為穆斯林，當涉及到像任何真正喜歡的、極端激進的、傷害其他人的事情是有毒的，你會說在巴基斯坦長大的人也是這樣嗎，這個定義在巴基斯坦成立。

I think it's hard to sort of take the template of masculinity that exists in the west and then apply it to a country like Pakistan in Pakistan for example, men hold hands walking on the street.

我認為很難把存在於西方的陽剛之氣的模板，然後應用到像巴基斯坦這樣的國家，比如說在巴基斯坦，男人在街上走的時候會牽手。

Same in syria, you wouldn't you wouldn't find two straight men walking in the us holding hands, they would die before they would do that.

在敘利亞也是如此，你不會發現兩個直男在美國牽手行走，他們會在死前做這些事情。

Like let's let's just you know, you know, I mean has has the definition of masculinity changed over time?

就像讓我們讓我們你知道，你知道，我的意思是，隨著時間的推移，男性的定義是否有變化？

I don't I don't think there's one definition of masculinity that translates across cultures and I think that's what you are speaking to.

我不認為......我不認為有一個跨文化的陽剛之氣的定義，我想這就是你所說的。

There are certain levels of cultural specificity that are important.

有一定程度的文化特殊性是很重要的。

I do think that now people are becoming more cognizant of the fact that we need to give men this space to be emotionally vulnerable, but we haven't given them the vocabulary and the tools to do so while that is happening in certain spaces, there's also this rise of you know, I have to beat on my chest.

我確實認為，現在人們越來越認識到，我們需要給男人這個空間，讓他們在情感上變得脆弱，但我們還沒有給他們這樣做的詞彙和工具，而這正在某些空間裡發生，也有這種興起，你知道，我必須拍拍胸脯。

It's this performance is gender performance, which is very interesting because some of these same people can be extremely homophobic and when you talk about gender performance and things like that, they're like, no, that I'm just being a man.

它的這種表現就是性別表現，這非常有趣，因為這些人中的一些人也可能極度仇視同志，當你談論性別表現之類的東西時，他們就會說，不，那我只是在做一個男人。

Do we feel like we have the responsibility to fix like the racist and homophobic relatives and uncles that we have.

我們是否覺得我們有責任像我們的種族主義者和同性戀者的親戚和叔叔那樣去解決。

I think like twitter would say yes, things can get frustrating when you're dealing with someone who's just sort of grown up in a different time.

我認為像twitter會說是的，當你面對一個只是在不同時代長大的人時，事情會變得令人沮喪。

Is it anyone's responsibility?

這是任何人的責任嗎？

I don't think so.

我不這麼認為。

I also think like, just let people let like, let all people make mistakes.

我還認為，只要讓人們讓喜歡，讓所有的人犯錯誤。

Let them learn through making mistakes so funky on the scene walked into your office.

讓他們通過犯錯來學習，讓現場的時髦人士走進你的辦公室。

How would you help him or would you help him?

你會如何幫助他或你會幫助他嗎？

I would love to help Uncle Nassim.

我很願意幫助納西姆叔叔。

Nassim is are my favorite kind of person to help.

納西姆是我最喜歡幫助的那種人。

I like the hard rock.

我喜歡硬搖滾。

Where would you start?

你會從哪裡開始呢？

Where would you start?

你會從哪裡開始呢？

I think Uncle Naseem needs a hug.

我認為納西姆叔叔需要一個擁抱。

I think he's no man.

我認為他不是男人。

You'll you'll like you'll you got you'll have him on your finger.

你會你會喜歡你會你有你會把他放在你的手指上。

Like a like a ring on it and he's not difficult.

就像一個像環一樣的東西，他也不難。

Uncle Nassim is not difficult to figure out.

納西姆叔叔並不難搞清楚。

He wants love, he wants connection, he wants to be seen.

他想要愛，他想要聯繫，他想要被看到。

So you think you think assam's character gives him like, the love he needs.

所以你認為你認為阿薩姆的性格給了他喜歡，他需要的愛。

Uncle Mason is not willing to accept the love that he might get because he's so used to not being loved.

梅森叔叔不願意接受他可能得到的愛，因為他太習慣於不被愛了。

Uncle Nassim has a lot of self loathing.

納西姆叔叔有很多的自我厭惡。

He has a lot of internalized homophobia throwing this out there.

他有很多內化的同志恐懼症，把這個東西扔在那裡。

So where do you where do you think?

那麼，你在哪裡，你認為呢？

Like, homophobia comes from?

比如，恐同症來自於？

Like with his men?

就像和他的手下一樣？

I think it relates to not only to toxic masculinity, but a misunderstanding of religion and the way that we use religion to oppress people.

我認為這不僅與有毒的男性氣質有關，而且與對宗教的誤解以及我們利用宗教壓迫人的方式有關。

Um it is considered religiously superior to hate someone who's gay?

嗯，在宗教上，討厭一個人是同志，就被認為是高人一等？

But does the text say that it doesn't make any sense.

但文本中是否說過，這沒有任何意義。

And I do think that it has a lot to do with toxic masculinity because we think that to be a man means to be a conqueror of women.

我確實認為這與有毒的男性氣質有很大關係，因為我們認為成為一個男人意味著要成為女性的征服者。

It's all related to this gender dynamic and this fear that that some men have of having their power taken away.

這一切都與這種性別動態有關，也與一些男人對自己的權力被剝奪的恐懼有關。

What role can men play in defining healthier gender dynamics?

在確定更健康的性別動態方面，男性可以發揮什麼作用？

Check your homeboys, check your friends and don't call them out and cancel them.

檢查你的同鄉，檢查你的朋友，不要把他們叫出來，取消他們。

Call them in and correct them.

叫他們進來，並糾正他們。

This is I want this for you because I want us to be better.

這是我對你的要求，因為我希望我們能變得更好。

Yeah, I can understand obviously, like if someone is being extremely like racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever, then it's difficult to sort of approach that with love and care.

是的，我顯然可以理解，比如說如果有人表現得非常像種族主義者或性別歧視者或同性戀者或其他什麼人，那麼就很難用愛和關懷來對待。

But like, I think everybody kind of has a fear of being of saying the wrong thing.

但是，我認為每個人都有一種害怕，害怕說錯話。

And so they would rather just not address the conversation.

是以，他們寧願不談這個話題。

Yeah.

是的。

So, so the scene was in your office, but then, you know, incomes Rami right after me, What would you say to Rami?

所以，所以場景是在你的辦公室，但然後，你知道，在我之後的拉米的收入，你會對拉米說什麼？

How would you help me?

你會如何幫助我？

And what is Romney's problem from your point of view?

那麼在你看來，羅姆尼的問題是什麼？

How much time do we have?

我們有多少時間？

I'm joking.

我是在開玩笑。

I would ask Rami at what point did you stop thinking that you are enough?

我想問拉米，在什麼時候你不再認為自己是足夠的？

Because I think that he's looking he's searching for something, he's looking for something.

因為我認為他在尋找他在尋找什麼，他在尋找什麼。

He's a lot like Uncle Naseem they both have this this shame and this this heavy secret.

他很像納西姆叔叔，他們都有這樣的恥辱和這樣的沉重的祕密。

I think his secret is that he doesn't know.

我認為他的祕密是他不知道。

He has not yet decided who he wants to be you and I are gonna be talking a lot.

他還沒有決定他想成為誰，你和我將會有很多交談。

I'm gonna actually come talk to you as late because life has some serious issues you know?

我實際上要來和你談談，因為生活中有一些嚴重的問題，你知道嗎？

You know.

你知道的。

But yeah it needs to learn a lot.

但是，是的，它需要學習很多東西。