- [Interviewer] So Lizzy, what are we doing here?

- [採訪者]那麼Lizzy，我們在這裡做什麼？

- We're here with Bosco, the pig,

- 我們在這裡和豬Bosco在一起。

'cause you said I had to get over my fear of pigs.

因為你說我必須克服對豬的恐懼。

But also because of this thing we read

但也是因為我們讀到的這件事

about how, in theory, in the future, a pig like this

關於在理論上，在未來，像這樣的豬如何

could feed an entire neighborhood for years.

可以養活整個社區多年。

Well, not this pig, but a pig.

嗯，不是這隻豬，而是一隻豬。

We've been looking into the future of meat.

我們一直在研究肉類的未來。

And what we've been finding is out there.

而我們所發現的是在那裡。

Animals raised for meat, but not slaughtered.

為肉類而飼養的動物，但沒有被宰殺。

Live tissue grown cell by cell in vats.

活體組織在大桶中逐個細胞生長。

And this one thought experiment

而這一個思想實驗

that really made us think about where animals

這真的讓我們思考動物在哪裡

will fit into our needs and tastes as consumers.

將符合我們作為消費者的需求和口味。

Sit.

坐。

So a little background on cultured meat

那麼，關於培養肉的一點背景

or cultivated meat or lab-grown meat.

或培養的肉或實驗室培養的肉。

It goes by lots of names.

它有很多名字。

It's the process of taking cells from say a cow, a chicken,

這是一個從牛、雞等動物身上提取細胞的過程。

or a pig, and getting them to multiply outside their body

或豬，並讓它們在體外繁殖

in machine called a bioreactor.

在稱為生物反應器的機器中。

It's a way to eat meat without actually eating animals.

這是一種吃肉的方式，而不是真的吃動物。

For the record,

為了記錄在案。

we're not talking about plant-based alternatives

我們不是在談論基於植物的替代品

like Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat.

如《不可能的食物》和《超越肉類》。

Cell-based meat is actual animal tissue.

細胞肉是實際的動物組織。

It's been almost a decade

已經有近十年的時間了

since the first cultured meat burger

自從第一個培養的肉漢堡出現後

was taste tested on live TV.

在電視直播中進行了口味測試。

- But there is quite some intense taste.

- 但有相當一些強烈的味道。

It's close to meat.

它接近於肉。

- But it's only in the past two or three years that research

- 但只是在過去的兩三年裡，研究

and investment have really taken off.

和投資已經真正起飛了。

The arguments for and against cultured meat

支持和反對養殖肉的論點

are all over the place.

都在這裡。

Proponents say that it sidesteps

支持者說，它避開了

most of the livestock industry's worst problems

畜牧業最嚴重的問題中的大部分

like it's land and water use,

像它的土地和水的使用。

pollution, greenhouse gas emissions,

汙染、溫室氣體排放。

and, of course, animal suffering.

當然，還有動物的痛苦。

Cultured meat could put a dent in those issues.

養殖肉可以使這些問題得到解決。

Critics point out that it's too early to know

批評者指出，現在就知道還為時過早

how eco-friendly cultured meat will really be at scale.

養殖肉品的生態友好程度將真正實現規模化。

And others argue

而其他人則認為

that instead of us spending billions of dollars

而不是我們花費數十億美元

or more to invent meat that we feel better about eating,

或更多地發明我們吃起來感覺更好的肉。

we should just stop eating meat all together.

我們應該完全停止吃肉。

But there's a really specific question

但有一個非常具體的問題

tucked into that debate.

塞進了這場辯論。

How might culture meat change the relationship

文化肉食可能如何改變關係

that meat consumers have with their food?

肉類消費者對他們的食物有什麼看法？

(techno music)

(技術音樂)

One answer to that question is here

這個問題的一個答案在這裡

at a company called Culture Biosciences.

在一家名為Culture Biosciences的公司。

They run a network of bioreactors for higher.

他們經營著一個生物反應器網絡，以滿足更高要求。

So say you're a lab,

所以說你是一個實驗室。

and you need to grow protein or some engineered microbes,

而你需要種植蛋白質或一些工程微生物。

you can send your raw materials to Culture

您可以將您的原材料寄給文化

and they'll run the entire experiment for you.

他們將為你運行整個實驗。

Can you just tell us a little bit

你能不能告訴我們一點

about what we're looking at?

關於我們正在看的東西？

- Sure.

- 當然。

These are a lot of bioreactors.

這些是大量的生物反應器。

They sort of look like blenders.

它們看起來有點像攪拌器。

Blenders on life support, to some degree.

攪拌機在某種程度上處於生命維持狀態。

The metabolism here is really similar to ours.

這裡的新陳代謝真的與我們相似。

It's like breathing in air, it's eating things,

這就像呼吸空氣一樣，是在吃東西。

it's growing more cells.

它正在生長更多的細胞。

- [Lizzie] Are they always spinning?

- [Lizzie]他們總是在旋轉嗎？

- They're always spinning.

- 他們總是在旋轉。

Yeah.

是的。

So it's like they always need to be mixed.

所以就像他們總是需要被混合。

- [Lizzie] So say you wanna grow some pork in a bioreactor.

- [Lizzie] 所以說你想在生物反應器中種植一些豬肉。

You start with a biopsy, a sampling of cells from a pig

你從活檢開始，從豬的細胞中取樣。

taken via needle or a small incision.

通過針頭或一個小切口採取。

You then use some of those cells to establish a cell bank,

然後你用這些細胞中的一部分建立一個細胞庫。

your go-to reservoir of cells.

你要去的細胞庫。

To start the culturing process,

要開始培養過程。

you take a few cells from the bank

你從銀行提取一些細胞

and add them to a flask

並將其加入燒瓶中

with all the nutrients needed to grow and divide.

含有生長和分裂所需的所有營養物質。

And then you wait.

然後你就等待。

- At some point, you have enough density of cells

- 在某些時候，你有足夠密度的細胞

to go into a big bioreactor.

以進入一個大的生物反應器。

- [Lizzie] Then there's more waiting as the cells double

- [Lizzie]然後是更多的等待，因為牢房是雙倍的。

and double and double again

再加一倍，再加一倍

until you have enough cells to strain out

直到你有足夠的細胞來過濾掉

and turn into food.

並變成食物。

This takes anywhere from two to eight weeks

這需要兩到八週的時間

depending on what you're growing and how you grow it.

取決於你種植的是什麼，以及你如何種植它。

- So at the end of that process,

- 所以在這個過程的最後。

you have this sort of slurry of cells, right?

你有這種細胞的漿液，對嗎？

That's what's coming out of a bioreactor.

這就是從生物反應器中出來的東西。

It's not the most appetizing thing.

這不是最合胃口的事情。

- The easiest food to make with that slurry

- 用這種泥漿製作的最簡單的食物

is something ground up like a sausage.

是像香腸一樣被磨碎的東西。

To mimic cuts of meat like a pork chop,

為了模仿像豬排這樣的肉類切割。

you'd need to train different types of cells

你需要訓練不同類型的細胞

to grow onto a scaffold.

長到一個腳手架上。

So that's all gonna take a lot more R&D.

所以這一切都需要更多的研發。

But, honestly, it's just one hurdle of many.

但是，說實話，這只是眾多障礙中的一個。

This whole process needs to get more consistent, automated,

這整個過程需要變得更加一致，自動化。

and way cheaper than it is now.

而且比現在要便宜得多。

On top of that, it also needs to be safe.

除此以外，它還需要是安全的。

- You have all these mammalian cells that are brewing

- 你有所有這些哺乳動物的細胞，正在醞釀

in like the perfect, literally the perfect environment

在像完美的，字面上的完美環境中

for a contaminant.

為一種汙染物。

Like if you have any bacteria in there,

例如，如果你有任何細菌在那裡。

it's literally in a soup

這簡直是在湯裡

that has all the food a bacteria would ever want.

它有一個細菌想要的所有食物。

- Another big hurdle, most animal cells

- 另一個大障礙，大多數動物細胞

just don't like growing while suspended in a big vat.

只是不喜歡在大缸裡懸浮生長。

So you need a lot of bioreactor space

所以你需要大量的生物反應器空間

to make just a little bit of meat.

來做一點點的肉。

- It's not a small difference.

- 這不是一個小的區別。

And if you're an order of magnitude less productive,

而如果你的生產力低一個數量級。

that means you need an order of magnitude,

這意味著你需要一個數量級。

bigger facility, more food and materials.

更大的設施，更多的食物和材料。

- So if all those problems get solved,

- 是以，如果所有這些問題得到解決。

what does the future look like?

未來是什麼樣子的？

And where do we, consumers, get our meat from?

而我們，消費者，從哪裡得到我們的肉？

This is where a few possible scenarios diverge.

這就是幾個可能的方案的分歧之處。

(letters typing)

(字母打字)

- [Will] If you think about a company like Anheuser-Busch,

- [Will]如果你想一想像Anheuser-Busch這樣的公司。

they literally have billions of liters

他們真的有幾十億升

of fermentation capacity for beer.

啤酒的發酵能力。

And, frankly,

而且，坦率地說。

I can see cultured meat going in that direction.

我可以看到培養的肉類正朝著這個方向發展。

(letters typing)

(字母打字)

- [Lizzie] One alternative to that future,

- [Lizzie]這個未來的一個選擇。

the craft brewery model.

精釀啤酒廠的模式。

- You can imagine there being more craft cultured meat

- 你可以想象，有更多的工藝培養的肉類

groups that are somehow specializing

某種程度上是專業化的群體

the way that they're working with the brewing process

他們在釀造過程中的工作方式

in order to make slightly different variations

以便做出稍微不同的變化

that have different, you know, taste differently.

有不同的，你知道，不同的味道。

(letters typing)

(字母打字)

- [Lizzie] And finally, there's the most extreme vision

- [Lizzie]最後，還有最極端的設想

for local meat production, home brewing.

用於當地肉類生產，家庭釀酒。

You'd have a at-home bioreactor in your kitchen

你會在你的廚房裡有一個在家的生物反應器

ready to supply you

準備為您提供

with fresh grown meat whenever you wanted it.

只要你想吃，就有新鮮的肉吃。

- It's hard to imagine, but it's plausible.

- 這很難想象，但這是有道理的。

It would be a really challenging technical feat to pull off.

這將是一個真正具有挑戰性的技術壯舉。

I believe there would have to be

我相信必須要有

some kind of fully automated system

某種完全自動化的系統

that really takes the user

真正把用戶

almost entirely out of the process

幾乎完全置身事外

in order to make it so that sort of there's no user error

為了使它不會出現用戶錯誤

and there's no way that user can contaminate it.

而且用戶不可能汙染它。

(soft music)

(輕音樂)

- [Lizzie] But we wanted to offer

- [Lizzie] 但我們想提供

one other vision for the future.

還有一個對未來的設想。

It's a thought experiment

這是個思想實驗

described by a Dutch researcher named Cor van der Weele.

由一位名叫Cor van der Weele的荷蘭研究人員描述。

About a decade ago,

大約十年前。

Cor convened some focus groups in the Netherlands

Cor在荷蘭召開了一些焦點小組會議

to find out how consumers would grapple with cultured meat.

以瞭解消費者將如何處理養殖肉品的問題。

- They said, "Well, it's interesting,

- 他們說，"嗯，這很有意思。

but isn't it very unnatural?"

但這不是很不自然嗎？"

And then someone else inevitably said,

然後有人不可避免地說道。

"Yeah, but how natural is our ordinary meat nowadays?"

"是啊，但我們現在的普通肉食有多自然呢？"

And what you noticed was

而你注意到的是

there was a lot of ambivalence about both.

對這兩方面都有很多矛盾的想法。

So normal meat becomes stranger

所以正常的肉變得更奇怪了

as cultured meat becomes more normal.

隨著培養的肉類變得更加正常。

- Whether the meat was coming from butchers or bioreactors,

- 無論這些肉是來自屠夫還是生物反應器。

one thing was clear.

有一件事是清楚的。

The group didn't want their meat

該組織不希望他們的肉

coming from one massive company.

來自一個龐大的公司。

And one group had a really creative workaround.

有一個小組有一個非常有創意的變通辦法。

- [Cor] The pig in the backyard.

- [Cor] 後院的豬。

(soft music)

(輕音樂)

- I don't wanna be that close to you, but here you go.

- 我不想離你那麼近，但給你。

I'm literally covered in dirt.

我簡直是滿身泥土。

This is the local model of cultured meat,

這就是當地的養殖肉的模式。

except the starter cells are local, too.

除了啟動細胞也是在地的。

Say you have a pig that lives in the neighborhood

假設你有一隻豬，住在附近

and the community takes care of him.

和社區對他的照顧。

When you wanted some ham,

當你想吃火腿的時候。

you could go pay a visit to the pig.

你可以去拜訪一下那頭豬。

Hi, buddy.

嗨，夥計。

Take a biopsy,

進行活檢。

and bring that home to your at-home bioreactor to grow meat.

並把它帶回家給你的家用生物反應器來種肉。

Alternatively, there could be some sort of butcher

另外，也可能有某種屠夫

who runs a small farm and a bank of bioreactors.

他經營著一個小農場和一個生物反應器庫。

Either way, the idea really struck a nerve.

不管怎麼說，這個想法確實觸動了我的神經。

- It seemed to give a glimpse for people into a world

- 它似乎為人們提供了一個窺視世界的機會

in which they can combine the end of animal suffering,

其中，他們可以結合結束動物的痛苦。

having good relations with animals,

與動物有良好的關係。

having food production close to our homes,

在我們家附近有食品生產。

and having meat as well.

並且也有肉吃。

So this combination seemed almost too good to be true.

所以這個組合似乎好得不能再好了。

They suddenly did not find it alienating

他們突然發現這並不疏遠

or too technological anymore because it was so close.

或太技術化了，因為它是如此接近。

- [Lizzie] Again, this is just a thought experiment.

- [Lizzie]同樣，這只是一個思想實驗。

It's completely imaginary

這完全是想象出來的

until the tech takes a huge leap forward.

直到該技術取得巨大飛躍。

- It's still the idea that is very risky,

- 這仍然是非常有風險的想法。

it is very inefficient,

它是非常低效的。

it will probably very expensive, etcetera.

它可能會非常昂貴，等等。

Whether it's really doable, I don't know,

這是否真的可以做到，我不知道。

but it's certainly conceivable.

但這當然是可以想象的。

- That's one of those things

- 那是其中的一件事

that's hard to predict about science

科學難料

and technology is that like there could be these advances.

和技術是，像有可能有這些進展。

As a vegetarian who really likes to eat meat,

作為一個真正喜歡吃肉的素食主義者。

I would love to partake.

我很想參加。

- While the technology develops,

- 在技術發展的同時。

we have this time to ask these big out-there questions

我們有這個時間來問這些大的外在問題

about the future of meat.

關於肉類的未來。

And Cor thinks that's crucial.

而科爾認為這一點至關重要。

- This dualism of technology

- 這種技術的二元論

versus changing our lifestyles is far too simplistic.

與改變我們的生活方式相比，這太簡單了。

I think they're always interwoven.

我認為它們總是交織在一起。

But this changing of lifestyles

但這種生活方式的改變

can be triggered by new technology.

可由新技術引發。

And cultured meat could well be an example of this.

而養殖肉很可能是這方面的一個例子。

- Oh.

- 哦。

Hello.

你好。

In this scenario, there's... (pig chomping)

在這種情況下，有......（豬的咬合）。

(Lizzie laughing)

(Lizzie笑)

I don't think he likes the idea

我認為他不喜歡這個主意

that we're talking about eating his kind.

我們正在談論吃他的同類。

Are you okay?

你還好嗎？

- [Man] Maybe he's just snobby.

- [男人]也許他只是勢利眼。

- I think he just was trying to sniff things

- 我認為他只是想聞一下東西

and couldn't find food.

而且找不到食物。

In this scenario, there would be.

在這種情況下，會有。

(Lizzie laughing)

(Lizzie笑)