here in Guangzhou, China. And today's episode is  going to be focusing on the technology regulatory  

在中國廣州。今天的節目將重點討論技術監管問題

crackdown here in China, why it's happening now,  what's really going on, what happens next. And  

中國的鎮壓，為什麼現在會發生，真正發生了什麼，接下來會發生什麼。還有

really what it means for Chinese tech companies'  ambitions, particularly as they look to go global.  

這對中國科技公司的雄心意味著什麼，特別是當它們尋求走向全球時。

And as China and the US battle it out for tech  supremacy on the global stage, all that will be  

隨著中國和美國在全球舞臺上爭奪科技霸主地位，所有這些都將成為現實。

revealed in my in depth conversation with a very  special guest, who is an internet entrepreneur  

在我與一位非常特別的客人的深入交談中，他是一位互聯網企業家，他揭示了這一點

as well as a former legislator in Hong Kong. But  before we get to that conversation, I want to set  

以及香港的一位前立法者。但是，在我們開始這個對話之前，我想設定一下

the context here because it's a story that's moved  extremely quickly. If you've not been following  

這裡的背景是，這是一個進展極其迅速的故事。如果你沒有關注

it closely. We've seen a raft of regulation for  the technology and internet sector here in China,  

密切關注它。我們已經看到了中國對技術和互聯網行業的一系列監管。

as well as other parts of the private  sector as well. And it all appeared to  

以及私營部門的其他部分也是如此。而這一切似乎都是為了

start in November 2020 when Ant Group, the  financial technology or FinTech company,  

2020年11月開始，金融技術或金融科技公司螞蟻集團。

founded by billionaire jack Ma, was going to go  public in Hong Kong and Shanghai and what would  

由億萬富翁馬雲創辦的 "中國移動 "將在香港和上海上市，這將會是什麼？

have been the world's largest IPO. Just a couple  days before that was scheduled to be listed,  

已經成為世界上最大的IPO。就在預定上市的幾天前。

the IPO was pulled. And the company cited changes  in the financial technology regulatory environment  

撤消了IPO。而該公司引用了金融技術監管環境的變化

for a reason that regulators end up pulling this  IPO. Now, I remember flying to Shanghai a couple  

的原因，監管機構最終拉動了這次IPO。現在，我記得我飛到了上海，有幾次

of days before this IPO. We were set to cover it,  put my bags down in the hotel one night and boom,  

在這次IPO之前的幾天。我們準備報道它，一天晚上把我的行李放在酒店裡，然後砰的一聲。

this story just blew up at this point. And we  were covering it furiously writing an article.  

這個故事在這一點上剛剛炸開了鍋。而我們正在狂熱地報道它，寫一篇文章。

The next day I was on the streets of Shanghai  reporting live on CNBC TV to discuss the story  

第二天，我在上海的街道上，在CNBC電視臺現場報道，討論這個故事

and what had taken place at this point. But  the speed of what what happened really just  

以及在這一點上發生了什麼。但是，所發生的事情的速度真的只是

underscores I think the speed of change happening  in what is a new normal now for the tech sector  

我認為，在現在科技部門的新常態下，發生變化的速度非常快。

here in China. Now at the time, there was a lot  to talk about whether Jack Ma's comments a few  

在中國這裡。當時，有很多人在談論馬雲的言論是否會影響到中國的經濟。

days previously, which were perceived as negative  towards the regulators had a factor in that there  

此前，被認為是對監管機構的負面報道，其中有一個因素是，有

was certainly more behind it at that point. But it  did kickstart a number of other regulatory actions  

在這一點上，當然更多的是支持它。但它確實啟動了其他一些監管行動

and movements as well. There were new rules  that came out in terms of antitrust specifically  

和運動也是如此。特別是在反壟斷方面，有新的規則出現了

for the platform economy, which refers to these  technology companies operating platforms such as  

為平臺經濟，指的是這些技術公司經營的平臺，如

e commerce sites, or food delivery or social  media as well. There were new rules on unfair  

電子商務網站，或食品配送或社交媒體也是如此。有關於不公平的新規則

competition on the internet, Alibaba was hit  with a $2.8 billion fine in an antitrust probe.  

在互聯網上的競爭中，阿里巴巴在反壟斷調查中被處以28億美元的罰款。

Meituan the food delivery giant is currently under  investigation as well in an anti monopoly probe,  

美團網這個食品配送巨頭目前也在接受反壟斷調查。

as well. And the government's introduced new rules  around data privacy and data protection. And now  

也是如此。政府圍繞數據隱私和數據保護出臺了新規則。而現在

the other high profile incident to highlight here  is Didi, the ride hailing giant, which went public  

這裡要強調的另一個引人注目的事件是滴滴出行，該公司是乘車服務巨頭，已經上市。

over in the US. Days later, the regulators  open the cyber security probe into the company.  

在美國。幾天後，監管機構開始對該公司進行網絡安全調查。

And we'll certainly get into more of that and  why that happened. But the question really is  

我們當然會深入瞭解這一點，以及為什麼會發生這種情況。但問題是

why now, why this regulatory movement now and  what next? What is the endgame? And to discuss  

為什麼是現在，為什麼現在有這種監管運動，接下來是什麼？最終的結局是什麼？並討論

that with me today? I've got Charles Mok, an  internet entrepreneur as well as a former Hong  

今天和我在一起的是什麼？我請來了莫乃光，一位互聯網企業家，同時也是前香港特區政府官員。

Kong legislator. He is the founder of Tech for  Good Asia, an advocacy group promoting the fair,  

香港立法者。他是促進博覽會的宣傳團體 "亞洲科技公益 "的創始人。

open and safe use of technology, Charles, good to  see you. Thanks so much for joining the podcast.

查爾斯，很高興見到你，公開和安全地使用技術。非常感謝你加入播客節目。

Good to see you.

很高興見到你。

So let's kick off this conversation because,  

是以，讓我們開始這次談話，因為。

you know, there's various regulators who are  involved right now in the, the tech regulation  

你知道，現在有各種監管機構參與到科技監管中來了。

here in China. You know, what's changed at  the moment in terms of the thinking from  

在中國這裡。你知道，目前在思想上有什麼變化嗎？

Beijing? Why now? Are we seeing this big  regulation of the country's tech sector?

北京？為什麼是現在？我們是否看到對國家科技部門的這種大規制？

Yeah, I guess it all started. For most people  looking at what's been happening, most people  

是的，我想這一切都開始了。對於大多數人來說，看著已經發生的事情，大多數人

would probably think that the the crackdown  started when, you know, when the Ant Financial  

你可能會認為，打擊行動是在，你知道，在螞蟻金服的時候開始的。

tried to IPO in Hong Kong last November. Now,  looking back, I think by now, I mean, hindsight  

去年11月試圖在香港進行IPO。現在，回顧過去，我認為到現在，我的意思是，事後看來

is always perfect. So looking back, I would  say that, we are able to see that actually, a  

始終是完美的。是以，回顧過去，我想說，我們能夠看到，實際上，一個

lot of the trends that the Chinese government had  been planning for this sort of actions to happen,  

中國政府一直在為這種行動的發生而計劃的許多趨勢。

actually have been happening for quite a few  years, in particular, some of the legal changes  

實際上已經發生了好幾年了，特別是一些法律上的變化。

that they have put in place, including the last  couple of years, strengthening some of the anti  

他們已經到位，包括在過去幾年中，加強了一些反恐怖主義的措施。

trust laws inside of China. And more recently, of  course, the data security and the cyber security  

中國國內的信託法。當然，最近，數據安全和網絡安全也是如此。

laws. These are actually I would say, looking  back in hindsight, things that the government has  

法律。實際上，我想說的是，事後回想起來，這些都是政府已經

been preparing for this wave of action. Now, of  course, the recent escalation of the effort or the  

一直在為這一波行動做準備。現在，當然，最近努力的升級或

ferocity of these kinds of actions, may really  take most of the people in the market by  

這類行動的凶猛程度，可能真的會讓市場上的大多數人受到影響。

surprise, to a great extent. And I think part of  the reason is also because when we think about  

驚喜，在很大程度上。而我認為部分原因也是因為當我們考慮到

investors, or even many of those people, or groups  that are actually investing directly in these  

投資者，甚至許多人或團體，實際上直接投資於這些

companies that are involved, you know, companies  that are trying to get IPOs, and financials,  

所涉及的公司，你知道，試圖獲得IPO的公司，以及財務狀況。

Didi and other spinoff from Tencent and so on.  You look at those people that are in the market,  

滴滴和其他從騰訊剝離出來的公司等等。 你看一下那些在市場上的人。

they actually probably within the last couple of  years, were thinking that things are going to get  

他們實際上可能在過去的幾年中，正在考慮事情會變得

tougher, and they wanted to get on the last train.  So they were trying to rush themselves in the door  

更加艱難，而且他們想搭上最後一班火車。 所以他們試圖把自己衝進門去

or out the door, which whichever way you look at  it, they want to get the last chance to let's say,  

或者出了門，無論你怎麼看，他們都想獲得最後的機會，比方說。

do a huge IPO before the crackdown happens. And  probably that's also what made the authorities  

在鎮壓發生之前，做一個巨大的IPO。而這可能也是讓當局

more agitated. What made them more on  edge. And, and probably because of that the  

更加焦躁不安。是什麼讓他們更加緊張。而且，也可能是因為這個原因

sort of action, the level of action that has  been taken recently had been more escalated.

的那種行動，最近採取的行動水準已經更加升級了。

Has there been any kind of shift in  terms of the mentality in terms of  

從心態上看，是否有任何形式的轉變？

the thinking of the Chinese Communist Party  and the broader government agencies towards  

中國共產黨和更廣泛的政府機構的思維方式是什麼？

the tech sector Do you think? Or the  private sector for that matter, as well?

你認為是科技部門嗎？或者說，私營部門也是如此？

Yeah, I think it's actually not just the tech  sector sector is also the private sector, as a  

是的，我認為這實際上不僅僅是技術部門的問題，也是私人部門的問題，作為一個

whole, particularly those sectors that are prone  to be controlled by a smaller number of players  

整體而言，特別是那些容易被少數參與者控制的部門

that are becoming very affluent,  very wealthy, has a lot of power.

變得非常富裕，非常富有，有很大的權力。

Either within those companies, or actually, even  between companies, you know, they work together  

無論是在這些公司內部，還是實際上，甚至在公司之間，你知道，他們一起工作。

in certain ways. So the government is probably  concerned about those power be invested  

在某些方面。是以，政府可能擔心這些權力會被投入。

increasingly in the private sector. We've been  hearing or talking in the last several years  

越來越多地在私人部門。在過去的幾年裡，我們一直聽到或談到

of the central government and the party  thinking that they want to move a bit back  

中央政府和黨的思想，他們想往後移一點

away from the proliferation of the private sector  toward more control by state owned either either  

從私人部門的擴散轉向由國有部門的更多控制，或者說是由國有部門控制。

directly or, you know, not necessarily the same  kind of state owned enterprises have decades ago,  

直接或，你知道，不一定是幾十年前的那種國有企業有。

but more involvement and control by the central  authorities. That's certainly a trend. So in  

但中央當局的參與和控制更多。這當然是一個趨勢。是以，在

a sense, I believe they are definitely trying to  instill and develop a new economic order In China,  

從某種意義上說，我相信他們絕對是在試圖在中國灌輸和發展一種新的經濟秩序。

that is very much reversing  the kind of liberalisation  

這在很大程度上扭轉了自由化的趨勢。

and economic reform sort of almost free  for all for the private sector to flourish.  

和經濟改革的排序，幾乎是免費的，讓私營部門蓬勃發展。

That kind of opening up, I do believe that this  is, it's clear that the whole thinking is changed.

這種開放，我確實相信，這是，很明顯，整個思維已經改變了。

And when you say new economic order, I mean,  

而當你說新的經濟秩序時，我是指。

what would you think? Or what can you discern  that are some of the features of that?

你會怎麼想？或者你能看出什麼是其中的一些特點？

Well, if you look at it from the regulatory  aspect, first of all, is pretty clear that  

好吧，如果你從監管方面來看，首先，相當清楚的是

the government is looking at number one, sectors  that has to do a lot with you know, as I said,  

政府正在尋找第一，部門，這有很大的關係，你知道，正如我說的。

you know, sectors that are easily controlled  by a small number of players to trade practices  

你知道，那些很容易被少數人控制的部門的貿易慣例

across sector within the sector, that that  allowed them to, to develop the sort of anti  

在部門內的各部門之間，這使他們能夠，發展出一種反。

monopoly or monopolistic type of trade practices,  they are very concerned about that. And of course,  

壟斷或壟斷類型的貿易行為，他們非常關注這個問題。當然還有。

they will say that the reason is because they want  to protect consumer interests. And there is a good  

他們會說，原因是他們想保護消費者的利益。而且有一個很好的

degree of truth in that as well, not to make a  course also the government wants more control.  

這句話也有一定程度的真實性，不是要做一個課程，也是政府想要更多的控制。

The second very important trend is  obviously the concern about data.

第二個非常重要的趨勢顯然是對數據的關注。

And that, why we seem to see a lot of the focus  being put on tech companies, because they are  

這就是為什麼我們似乎看到很多焦點被放在科技公司上，因為它們是

the companies whether they are in, okay, apps  or online games, or transportations like Didi  

無論他們是在，好吧，應用程序或在線遊戲，或像滴滴這樣的運輸公司

or financial services, we are talking  about these companies putting all these  

或金融服務，我們正在談論這些公司將所有這些

services more and more online, and  then they collect a lot of data.  

越來越多的在線服務，然後他們收集大量的數據。

Now, that means that well, of course,  when we look at Didi for example,  

現在，這意味著，好吧，當然，當我們看看迪迪的例子。

well, it's clear that the government was the  Chinese government was concerned if the Didi go  

嗯，很明顯，政府是中國政府擔心，如果滴滴走了

IPO in the foreign country, and then they might be  successful susceptible to those foreign countries,  

在外國進行IPO，然後他們可能會成功地對這些外國產生影響。

especially the United States, trying  to get these data from these companies,  

特別是美國，試圖從這些公司獲得這些數據。

because they get listed on in the US. But  actually, even within the country domestically,  

因為他們在美國上市了。但實際上，即使在國內，也是在國內。

the government is probably also concerned about  the power of these company collecting and having  

政府可能也擔心這些公司收集和擁有的權力。

a monopoly on all these data. And then finally,  of course, also about capital, the government's  

壟斷了所有這些數據。然後最後，當然也是關於資本，政府的

in the past, I think they weren't as  concerned about these companies trying to  

在過去，我認為他們並不關心這些公司試圖

get IPO and get capital investment from foreign  entities and investors and so on. In the past,  

獲得IPO，並從外國實體和投資者那裡獲得資本投資，等等。在過去。

I believe even the government believed that it was  a good thing, because you know, every government  

我相信即使是政府也認為這是一件好事，因為你知道，每個政府

should want more foreign direct investment, or  even foreign IPOs. But I think that mentality  

應該希望有更多的外國直接投資，甚至是外國IPO。但我認為這種心態

has changed. Right now, the government is more  concerned about what they call disorderly capital  

已經改變了。現在，政府更關注他們所謂的無序資本

expansion, which has to do with these companies  either, you know, going to getting foreign  

擴張，這與這些公司有關係，你知道，去獲得外國的

investment, and, and then the central government  may be worried that this might be this might allow  

投資，然後，中央政府可能會擔心，這可能是這可能讓

foreign interest of or even governments to  have to have too much control within what's  

在國外的利益，甚至政府必須有太多的控制，在什麼是

going on within China. And that's becoming  more and more sensitive for the government.

在中國境內發生的事情。這對政府來說變得越來越敏感。

So Charles there's a lot to unpack, he had some of  the comments you've made in the past few minutes.  

所以查爾斯有很多東西要解讀，他有一些你在過去幾分鐘裡的評論。

So I do want to just take it back a little bit.  And we'll delve more into that data point. And  

所以我確實想把它收回來一點。 我們將更深入地研究這個數據點。還有

a few of these other points. Firstly, you know,  the power of the tech companies is something you  

其他一些觀點。首先，你知道，科技公司的力量是你的東西

mentioned. And one of the interesting things was,  of course, before the pulling of the ant group IPO  

提到的。而其中一個有趣的事情是，當然，在拉動螞蟻集團的IPO之前

in November, you know, jack Ma, did make that that  notorious speech now, in which he was perceived  

在11月，你知道，馬雲確實發表了那個臭名昭著的演講，在其中他被認為是

to be pretty negative towards the regulators  in China. And there was a lot of talk about  

對中國的監管機構相當消極。而且有很多關於

whether that was the catalyst for the regulatory  action, but more broadly, whether the action  

這是否是監管行動的催化劑，但更廣泛地說，該行動是否

against ant group and subsequent actions against  Alibaba in terms of that huge antitrust, fine,  

針對螞蟻金服集團，以及隨後針對阿里巴巴的巨大反壟斷的行動，罰款。

we're really about making an example of some of  these tech entrepreneurs who have potentially  

我們真正要做的是為這些科技企業家樹立一個榜樣，他們有潛在的

created alternative power centers to the CCP, and,  you know, are posing a potential challenge to the  

創造了替代中國共產黨的權力中心，而且，你知道，正在對中國共產黨構成潛在的挑戰。

power there. I mean, how much do you buy into that  narrative? You know, how true is that narrative?

那裡的權力。我的意思是，你對這種說法有多大信心？你知道，這種敘述的真實性如何？

I think there's some truth to that. It probably  you mentioned about Jack Ma's speech late last  

我想這是有一定道理的。這可能是你提到的關於馬雲在去年年底的演講。

year, I believe that probably was the, pretty  much the last straw on the camel's back,  

年，我相信這可能是，幾乎是駱駝背上的最後一根稻草。

that really forced, prompted the government into,  

這確實迫使，促使政府進入。

you know, finally taking very drastic or  serious action or stopping the IPO and so on.

你知道，最後採取非常激烈或嚴肅的行動或停止IPO等等。

But, as I said, I don't believe that it was the  only reason. The government over the last several  

但是，正如我所說，我不相信這是唯一的原因。在過去的幾個月裡，政府

years probably had been very concerned  about the power that is developed within  

多年來，人們可能一直非常關注在中國境內發展的權力。

some of these individuals, like you mentioned  Jack Ma, and others, but I don't think it's just  

其中一些人，比如你提到的馬雲，還有其他人，但我不認為這只是

a few, you know, figures like Jack Ma, or pony  Ma, or people like that is actually the whole,  

一些，你知道，像馬雲，或小馬哥，或像這樣的人，實際上是整個。

interconnected circle of interest among these  people, I think when we look back at some of the  

這些人之間相互關聯的利益圈，我認為當我們回顧一些

reports coming out of the that IPO, and some of  the pre IPO activities that was reported, later  

報道中提到的那次IPO，以及後來報道的一些IPO前的活動。

on, the kind of allocation of pre IPO, stocks,  and so on, to different individuals, or groups,  

上，將預售的IPO、股票等分配給不同的個人或團體的那種。

and so on, you could see that there was a huge  amount of these kind of relationships in China,  

等等，你可以看到，在中國有大量的這種關係。

you know, it's not just, you know, Ant  Financial, when they went, if they did go IPO,  

你知道，這不僅僅是，你知道，螞蟻金服，當他們去，如果他們真的去IPO。

it doesn't mean that there was only a few  person that are expected in the companies and  

這並不意味著只有少數人被期望在公司裡和其他地方工作。

Mr. Ma himself, making a lot of money. It's  actually a whole group of people as well.  

馬先生自己，賺了很多錢。實際上也是一整群人。

And I think that's the kind of thing that  the Chinese government is concerned about,  

我認為這正是中國政府所關心的事情。

not just any particular individual, but the sort  of sphere of influences that are being developed  

不僅僅是任何特定的個人，而是正在形成的那種影響範圍。

among these rich individuals and companies  that actually also, in many cases,  

在這些富有的個人和公司中，在許多情況下，實際上也是如此。

have relationships with investors outside of  the country, as well. So they are concerned.

與國外的投資者也有關係。所以他們很擔心。

Yeah, and I guess that fits into this narrative  from the Chinese government around creating a  

是的，我想這也符合中國政府圍繞創造一個

common prosperity, right. And at the same  time, you've got a lot of these sort of,  

共同繁榮，對。而與此同時，你有很多這樣的排序。

you know, rich tech entrepreneurs, making  a lot of money. But at the same time,  

你知道，富有的科技企業家，賺了很多錢。但與此同時。

there's a lot of disenchantment with, for example,  the working culture in the technology, sector,  

有很多人對例如技術部門的工作文化感到失望。

996, etc. So I guess some of this action  also tries to fit into that narrative of,  

996，等等。是以，我想這個行動的一些內容也試圖符合這種敘事的要求。

to some extent, the Chinese government  looking like it's looking after the people.

在某種程度上，中國政府看起來像是在照顧人民。

So actually, I think there were a lot of good  reasons why the government had to do what it did.  

是以，實際上，我認為有很多很好的理由讓政府不得不做它所做的事情。

Because there were indeed, a lot of very seriously  deficient or unhealthy culture, among these  

因為確實有很多非常嚴重的缺陷或不健康的文化，其中有

companies that are developed in the kind of  work ethics that they miss demanded from their  

在他們所懷念的工作道德中發展起來的公司，對他們的要求也是如此。

employees, long work hours, and so on. People  actually working themselves to death in a  

僱員，工作時間長，等等。人們實際上在工作中把自己弄死了

couple of instances. Very recently, of course,  the last couple of weeks, some of these sexual  

有幾個例子。當然，最近，在過去的幾周裡，這些性行為中的一些

harassment cases that came out, which actually  revealed also that there's huge amount of sexual  

曝光的騷擾案件，實際上也揭示了有大量的性騷擾案件。

harassment types of issues, or culture within  these big companies that they have in the past  

騷擾類型的問題，或這些大公司內部的文化，他們在過去有

been trying to overlook. So it probably fell  right into the, the conveniently fell into  

一直試圖忽略。所以它可能正好落入了，方便地落入了

the hands of the authorities to actually, you  know, paint the picture of these big companies  

你知道，當局的手實際上是在描繪這些大公司的形象。

being out of control, being less sensitive  to not just the consumers, but also their  

失控，不僅對消費者不敏感，而且對他們也不敏感。

workers and so on being unfair. The, you know,  the bosses make a lot of money and so on, but  

工人等等是不公平的。你知道，老闆們賺了很多錢，等等，但

working the employees to death and all that, I  think it fell into that really conveniently in the  

僱員工作到死，所有這些，我認為它真的很方便地落到了這個地步。

hands of the authorities to paint that narrative  increasingly, but to be fair, those are real  

越來越多的人認為這是當局的行為，但公平地說，這些都是真實的。