Jeju.

濟州。

His orange business has blossomed over the past few years so much that he can now afford a brick house, a sign of world in Beijing, a rural county in central China, he says.

他的橘子生意在過去的幾年裡開花結果，以至於他現在可以買得起磚房，他說，在北京這個中國中部的農村縣城，這是一個世界的標誌。

All of this was made possible by government assistance.

這一切都得益於政府的援助。

Village officials and the government were very helpful in poverty alleviation.

村官和政府對扶貧工作幫助很大。

They helped develop the orchards.

他們幫助開發果園。

Orchard is our main source of income here, and they supported it well.

果園是我們這裡的主要收入來源，他們支持得很好。

I can earn up to €5000 a year.

我的年收入可以達到5000歐元。

Right now, me is the shining example of China's go to eradicate extreme poverty.

現在，我就是中國去消除極端貧困的光輝典範。

By 2021 in 2014, President Xi Jinping announced relief strategies to aid the poor.

到2014年的2021年，習近平主席宣佈了扶貧戰略。

Government officials went door to door to assess household income and provided aid.

政府官員挨家挨戶評估家庭收入，並提供救助。

Now Beijing says it's achieved its target.

現在北京說它已經實現了目標。

Almost 100 million rural, impoverished population have been lifted out of poverty.

近1億農村貧困人口實現脫貧。

We finished the hazardous task of eradicating absolute poverty, creating another incredible miracle.

我們完成了消除絕對貧困的危險任務，創造了另一個不可思議的奇蹟。

We But some critics say she's official version is in the full story.

我們但有評論家說，她的官方版本是在完整的故事。

They say his government said the poverty threshold too low.

他們說，他的政府說貧困門檻太低。

Here in Beijing, some farmers who have officially escaped poverty still struggled Liu Qingyuan says his harvest has not improved despite government aid to diversify his crops.

在北京，一些已經正式脫貧的農民仍在苦苦掙扎，劉慶元說，儘管政府對他的作物進行了多樣化的援助，但他的收成並沒有改善。

I have two sons who go outside to work for others.

我有兩個兒子，他們在外面給別人打工。

When they're free, they can earn some money to sustain our living.

當他們有空的時候，可以賺點錢來維持我們的生活。

I'm nearly 70 and my wife is over 60.

我快70歲了，老婆也60多歲了。

We cannot work like this.

我們不能這樣工作。

Are living, is in such a poor shape.

是生活，是在這樣一個糟糕的狀態。

Okay, Leo and his family of five wished to move to a better home.

好吧，Leo和他的一家五口希望搬到一個更好的家。

Like others they know.

就像他們認識的其他人一樣。

But for now they have to stay in this wooden house, which does little to keep them warm.

但現在他們只能呆在這間木屋裡，這間木屋對他們的保暖作用不大。

The 67 year old still hopes that one day his farm will bring them the world he has long wished for.

67歲的老人仍然希望有一天，他的農場能給他們帶來他一直希望的世界。

Joining us is John Donaldson of Singapore Management University.

加入我們的是新加坡管理大學的John Donaldson。

John.

約翰。

When Beijing says it has eradicated poverty, what does that mean?

北京說脫貧，那是什麼意思？

And is it an accurate statement?

而這是一個準確的說法嗎？

Well, there were two important words that Xi Jinping said when when he when he made that the announcement recently declaring victory one was, uh, rural.

好了，有兩個重要的詞，習近平當他當他最近宣佈那個宣佈勝利的時候說了一個是，嗯，農村。

So it has nothing to do with urban poverty, and the other one was absolute poverty.

所以它跟城市貧困沒有關係，另外一個是絕對貧困。

So what they're claiming is that, uh, you know, in terms of a relatively low poverty line that that is what the entire population is under.

所以，他們聲稱的是，呃，你知道，在一個相對較低的貧困線 這就是整個人口下。

Now is it true?

現在是真的嗎？

I don't know any serious scholar who thinks that China has, even in terms of absolute rural poverty, has eradicated poverty?

我不知道有哪位嚴肅的學者認為，即使從農村絕對貧困的角度來看，中國已經消除了貧困？

Uh, has China made a humongous leap forward?

呃，中國是否已經實現了巨大的飛躍？

Hasn't made a contribution that is very, very likely to be true.

還沒有做出非常非常可能是真的貢獻。

And so what more does the country need to do in its fight against you?

那麼國家在與你的鬥爭中還需要做什麼呢？

Mentioned Rule versus Urban?

提到規則與城市?

I don't know if you want to focus on one over the other.

我不知道你是否想關注一個而不是另一個。

And, of course, the growing inequality divide there, and those are three very, very important issues.

當然，那裡的不平等鴻溝越來越大，這是三個非常非常重要的問題。

All three of them are very difficult to tackle, and you have to tackle them differently.

這三者都是非常難對付的，你要用不同的方法來對付。

In terms of rural poverty, China should not be letting their foot off the gas.

在農村貧困問題上，中國不應該放任自流。

The fear is that by declaring victory over poverty, people, including many Chinese people, will think, Oh, that means that we've we've eliminated poverty when what they really have done is, if their claims are true, eliminated the most severe point of forms of poverty.

怕的是，宣佈戰勝貧困，人們包括很多中國人都會認為，哦，這意味著我們我們已經消除了貧困，而他們真正做的是，如果他們的說法是真的，消除了最嚴重的一點貧困形式。

They there are still poor people in rural China today, and so they need to keep their foot on the pedal.

他們今天在中國農村還有窮人，所以他們需要把腳踩在踏板上。

Urban poverty is very different because you're talking about layoffs and other kinds of things that thrust working, working people into poverty, standards of living and so very, very different kinds of tools that you would need to attack.

城市貧困是非常不同的，因為你說的是裁員和其他類型的東西，將工作，工作的人推向貧困，生活標準，所以非常，非常不同的工具，你需要攻擊。

Uh, urban poverty as opposed to rural.

呃，城市貧困與農村相對。

And of course, they are linked because meant much of the urban poverty are folks who are coming in from the countryside looking for work and other things like that.

當然，它們是有聯繫的，因為這意味著很多城市貧困人口都是從農村來找工作和其他類似事情的人。

And so, by reducing rural poverty some ways, what you're doing is shifting it from the rural areas into the cities.

所以，通過減少農村貧困的一些方式，你要做的就是把農村的貧困轉移到城市。

Now we've danced around this a little bit.

現在我們已經在這個問題上跳了一下。

But how much of this is driven by propaganda?

但這其中有多少是由宣傳推動的？

The need to sort of spread certain messages?

需要排序傳播某些資訊？

Well, I take it on two different levels.

好吧，我把它放在兩個不同的層面。

I do think She Jinping is taking poverty seriously.

我是覺得佘金平是在認真對待貧困問題。

I think she Jinping really should be applauded for taking poverty Seriously.

我覺得她金萍真的應該為她認真對待貧困而鼓掌。

Nobody is suggesting that this is pure propaganda in the sense that they're just cooking the books down in in, uh, local China in rural China, when I have a chance to visit, uh, you know, which I do basically every year that there's not a pandemic around.

沒有人說這是純粹的宣傳，在某種意義上，他們只是在做飯的書下來，在，呃，當地的中國，在中國的農村，當我有機會訪問，呃，你知道，我做的基本上每年有一個沒有大流行病的周圍。

I can see that local government officials are taking it very seriously.

我看得出，地方政府官員非常重視。

On the other side, Xi Jinping had to bring it down to zero.

另一邊，習近平不得不把它降到零。

As soon as he made the pledge in 2015, we knew that they were going to announce success.

當他在2015年做出承諾的時候，我們就知道他們要宣佈成功了。

And just to put this in context, how are other countries in the region doing compared to China based on metrics, you go by?

就說這個問題，根據指標，你去看，該地區的其他國家與中國相比，情況如何？

Well, the truth is, every country struggles with, uh, you know, struggles with poverty, you know, from Singapore to, uh, you know, to Germany, to America.

好吧，事實是，每個國家都在努力， 呃，你知道，與貧困作鬥爭， 你知道，從新加坡到，呃，你知道， 德國，美國。

And so poverty is something that you know, really, humanity cannot let.

所以貧窮是你知道的，真的，人類不能讓。

It's, uh it's, you know, it cannot stop paying attention to.

這是，呃，這是，你知道，它不能停止關注。

We will always have to be dealing with poverty, at least for the for the foreseeable future.

至少在可預見的未來，我們將永遠要與貧窮打交道。

Uh, in terms of countries nearby countries like Cambodia and Laos and Vietnam, Uh, you know, all are struggling, uh, with poverty.

呃，就附近的國家而言，像高棉和寮國和越南，呃，你知道，所有的國家都在掙扎，呃，與貧困。

Uh, fortunately, the worldwide poverty rate is going down, but much of that is actually generated by China.

呃，幸運的是，世界範圍內的貧困率正在下降，但其中大部分實際上是由中國產生的。

John Donaldson.

約翰-唐納森

Thank you so much for your time.

非常感謝您的時間。

Thank you.

謝謝你了