There are many good things in Russia right now, he said.

他說，現在俄羅斯有很多好東西。

The very best of the people who are not afraid.

極品的人，誰也不怕。

From a box in the foreground outside, his supporters were ushered into waiting police vans.

從外面前景的一個包廂裡，他的支持者被帶入等待的警車。

Thousands have been arrested since he returned from Germany, and still they keep on coming out to protest.

自從他從德國回來後，已經有數千人被捕，但他們還是不斷地出來抗議。

Okay.

好吧，我知道了

Across this vast country, from Vladivostok in the east to ST Petersburg in the west via the Urals and Siberia, Navalny's return has precipitated an unprecedented outpouring of anger and frustration, met by brutal repression from the riot police.

在這個遼闊的國土上，從東邊的海參崴到西邊的聖彼得堡，途經烏拉爾和西伯利亞，納瓦爾尼的迴歸引發了前所未有的憤怒和挫折感，遭到了防暴警察的殘酷鎮壓。

I'll do it.

我會做的

But what is the Kremlin so afraid off?

但克里姆林宮怕什麼呢？

For sure, Aleksei Navalny has done some hard hitting investigations containing explosive allegations of official corruption.

當然，阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼已經做了一些嚴厲的調查，其中包含對官員腐敗的爆炸性指控。

The latest into a billion dollar palace supposedly built for President Putin has clocked up over 100 million views online, but the Kremlin still controls the TV stations, and so the national narrative.

最新進的一座據說是為普京總統建造的價值10億美元的宮殿在網上的瀏覽量已經超過了1億次，但克里姆林宮仍然控制著電視臺，所以全國的說法。

Until very recently, Navalny's name was never mentioned on television.

直到最近，納瓦爾尼的名字才在電視上被提及。

He's being frozen out of the political system for more than a decade.

他被凍結在政治體系之外已經十多年了。

In a recent opinion poll, only 2% of Russians gave.

在最近的一項民意調查中，只有2%的俄羅斯人給。

Aleksei Navalny has their preferred presidential candidate.

阿列克謝-納瓦尼有他們喜歡的總統候選人。

That's against 55% for Vladimir Putin.

這對普京的55%。

Now.

現在就去

These things are really tricky to measure because Aleksei Navalny is, in fact barred from standing in a presidential election to the questions entirely hypothetical.

這些東西真的很棘手，因為阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼事實上被禁止參加總統選舉，完全是假設性的問題。

A better measure, perhaps, of his popularity is an opinion poll taken last year, just after he was poisoned.

也許，衡量他受歡迎程度的一個更好的標準是去年進行的民意調查，就在他被毒死之後。

Where people were asked how they viewed his activities.

在那裡，人們被問及如何看待他的活動。

20% said they viewed them positively, but 50% said they viewed him negatively.

20%的人表示對他們的評價是正面的，但50%的人表示對他的評價是負面的。

The tens of thousands of people have been coming out under the frozen streets are not a manifestation of Navalny's popularity.

在冰凍的街道下，數萬人紛紛出動，這並不是納瓦爾尼受歡迎的表現。

Instead, they suggest that many Russians have had enough of a system they're powerless to change.

相反，他們認為，許多俄羅斯人已經受夠了他們無力改變的制度。

If there's one iron rule of Russian democracy, it is this.

如果說俄羅斯民主有一條鐵律的話，那就是。

You can vote how you like, but the result must always be Putin.

你可以怎麼投，但結果必須永遠是普京。

Yeah, The last time there were street protests on this scale in Russia was nearly a decade ago, when then President Medvedev stood aside to let Putin back in, shutting the door on any hope of political transition.

是啊，俄羅斯上一次出現如此規模的街頭抗議活動是近十年前，當時的總統梅德韋傑夫站在一旁讓普京重新上臺，關閉了政治過渡的希望之門。

That outbreak of dissent was crushed on.

那爆發的異議被壓制在。

We can expect to see even more repression this time round.

我們可以預期這次會看到更多的壓制。

This was the scene tonight as people came out to protest against the court's decision.

這是今晚的場景，人們出來抗議法院的判決。

Despite the beatings.

儘管捱了打。

Despite the arrests, Navalny has succeeded in bringing people out in record numbers.

儘管被逮捕，納瓦爾尼還是成功地將人們帶出了創紀錄的數量。

But a street movement alone will not bring down Vladimir Putin.

但僅靠街頭運動並不能讓普京倒下。

While the elite and the security apparatus support the status quo, any challenge can only come from within.

雖然精英和安全機構支持現狀，但任何挑戰只能來自內部。

As the ruling was read out, Alexi Navalny sent a silent message to his wife inside the courtroom.

在宣讀判決書時，阿列克西-納瓦爾尼在法庭內向妻子發出了一條無聲的資訊。

It's not clear what affect his jailing will have on the protests.

目前還不清楚他的入獄會對抗議活動產生什麼影響。

Perhaps they'll fizzle out.

也許他們會泡湯。

Or perhaps his fearlessness will prove contagious.

或者他的無畏精神會被證明是有傳染性的。

Either way, Today will be remembered as a defining moment of the Putin era Gabriel Gatehouse reporting on that trial of Alexey Navalny.

無論怎樣，今天都將被銘記為普京時代的一個決定性時刻 加布裡埃爾-門豪斯報道了對阿列克謝-納瓦爾尼的審判。

And on the very day Russia's chief dissident was imprisoned, Russia's covert vaccine, Sputnik V, passed its drug trial with flying colors 91% effective against the disease on sold now to countries around the world, including in Europe.

而就在俄羅斯首席異見人士被監禁的當天，俄羅斯的祕密疫苗斯普特尼克五號以91%的有效抗病率順利通過了藥物試驗，現在已銷往世界各國，包括歐洲。

So how should foreign powers respond to Russia?

那麼外國大國應該如何應對俄羅斯呢？

It's money, It's science, its dissemination of fake news.

是錢，是科學，是假新聞的傳播。

It's election meddling Let's be honest, it's power.

這是選舉干預 說實話，這是權力。

Where does the West draw the line?

西方的界限在哪裡？

Here's Mark Urban.

這是Mark Urban

Has there been any meaningful reaction mark to what we've just been looking at?

我們剛才看到的東西有沒有什麼有意義的反應標誌？

The word meaningful is quite interesting there, Emily, perhaps doing carrying quite a lot of weight in this context because, well, actually, can you do?

艾米麗，有意義這個詞很有意思，也許在這種情況下，做帶著相當大的分量，因為，其實，你能做到嗎？

In what seems to be an outrageous situation, quite a few of the key players took to Twitter, as is their wont these days.

在看似離譜的情況下，不少關鍵人物在微博上發聲，這是他們最近的習慣。

Tony Blinken, for example, the US Secretary of State, Dominic Raab, the UK foreign secretary.

比如美國國務卿託尼-布林肯、英國外交大臣多米尼克-拉布。

USAID Barral, the high representative of the EU.

美援署巴拉爾，歐盟高級代表。

I don't know if we can have a look at some of those.

我不知道我們能不能看看其中的一些。

They are pretty similar in their language.

他們的語言很相似。

It's a coordinated statement, if you like.

這是一個協調的聲明，如果你喜歡。

Between Tony Blinken and Dominic Raab.

託尼-布林肯和多米尼克-拉布之間。

Immediate and unconditional.

立即和無條件。

Release the keywords in both tweets.

放出兩條微博中的關鍵詞。

Now what are they actually going to do?

現在他們到底要做什麼？

Well, one thing you can say is that the attitude of the Biden administration is key, that they've started off on a different foot.

好吧，有一點你可以說，拜登政府的態度是關鍵，他們已經開始了不同的腳步。

They haven't said anything that we're gonna have a reset.

他們還沒有說過我們要重啟的事情。

As we saw years back when Hillary Clinton became secretary of state, they're not attempting anything like that trying to start from a tough position.

正如我們多年前看到的希拉里-克林頓成為國務卿時，他們並沒有試圖從強硬的立場開始這樣的事情。

But where are they going to go with this?

但他們要去哪裡呢？

Realistically, what can they do?

現實中，他們能做什麼？

Here's one idea from Navalny's people.

這是納瓦尼的人的一個想法。

They've sent a list of 35 people in the Russian state and security structures that people who tried to kill him on various others who they would like the West to sanction ALS, the usual stuff travel ban and all the rest of it Magnitsky type sanctions.

他們已經發送了35人的名單，在俄羅斯國家和安全結構的人誰試圖殺死他對各種其他誰，他們希望西方制裁ALS，通常的東西旅行禁令和所有其餘的它馬格尼茨基型制裁。

So that's what they're asking for.

所以這就是他們的要求。

In what sense are they most worried about damaging the relationship with Putin?

他們最擔心在什麼意義上破壞與普京的關係？

Is that political or financial?

是政治還是金融？

Well, I think those requested bands on those 35 individuals from the Navalny camp are very realistically targeted because if you say, let's suspend diplomatic relations, throw out lots of people from the embassy, all those sort of things, the type of things that followed the Salisbury poisoning.

好吧，我認為這些要求的帶子對納瓦尼陣營的35個人是非常現實的目標，因為如果你說，讓我們暫停外交關係，從大使館扔出很多人，所有這些事情，索爾茲伯裡中毒事件後的類型的事情。

In fact, you're into ALS sorts of difficulty, and we know that the Biden agenda, whether it's trying to get Iran back into the nuclear deal, whether it's on climate, whether it's in regional security in the Middle East Ah, lot of these things rely on Russian cooperation.

事實上，你進入ALS的各種困難，我們知道，拜登的議程，無論是試圖讓伊朗回到核協議，無論是在氣候上，無論是在中東地區安全啊，這些事情很多都依賴於俄羅斯的合作。

It's the old problem in trying to indicate displeasure at these acts by President Putin while at the same time keeping Russia constructively engaged.

這是個老問題，既要對普京總統的這些行為表示不滿，又要讓俄羅斯保持建設性的參與。

So that's their issue.

所以這就是他們的問題。

And that's how they're gonna have to calibrate what they do next.

而這也是他們接下來要做的事情的校準方式。

Mark.

馬克。

Thanks very much indeed.

真的非常感謝。

Well, just before we came on air, I spoke to Robert Menendez, a senior Democrat senator, on the newly elected chair of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee position once held by the then Senator Joe Biden.

就在我們直播之前，我採訪了民主黨資深參議員羅伯特-梅嫩德斯，關於新當選的參議院外交關係委員會主席一職，曾由當時的參議員喬-拜登擔任。

I began by asking him for his response to today's verdict.

我首先問他對今天判決的反應。

Well, today's verdict make clear that the Kremlin is petrified of Alexey Navalny and petrified of his ability to expose Kremlin corruption, petrified of his ability to resonate with the nationwide following of Russian citizens On lastly, you know, to the extent that we would suggest that there's any rule of law inside of Russia, it was left to die on the floor of that courtroom today.

今天的判決清楚地表明克里姆林宮害怕阿列克謝-納瓦尼 害怕他揭露克里姆林宮腐敗的能力 害怕他在全國範圍內與俄羅斯公民產生共鳴的能力 最後，你知道，在我們暗示俄羅斯內部有任何法治的程度上，它今天在法庭上被拋棄了

Do you think that the crowds we've seen protesting over the weekend presents a real problem for Vladimir Putin?

你認為我們在週末看到的抗議人群給普京帶來了真正的問題嗎？

He can't arrest his way out of this.

他不能逮捕他的方式來解決這個問題。

That's exactly right.

那是完全正確的。

He cannot arrest his way out of this and in numbers there is both safety and an opportunity to create change.

他無法逮捕自己的出路，在數量上，既有安全，也有創造改變的機會。

But we, uh you know, we of course, um can be supportive of the Russian people.

但我們，呃，你知道，我們當然，嗯可以支持俄羅斯人民。

It is for them to create their own change, but we should also be very clear.

這是讓他們自己去創造改變，但我們也應該非常清楚。

As I said in the letter to Secretary Blinken calling for the imposition of chemical weapons sanctions in response to the chemical weapons attack on Mr Navalny.

正如我在給布林肯國務卿的信中所說的那樣，針對納瓦尼先生受到的化學武器襲擊，我呼籲實施化學武器制裁。

These sanctions are required under American law and and the Trump administration gladly ignored it.

這些制裁是美國法律規定的，而特朗普政府卻欣然置之不理。

We should impose it, and that will send a message is well, uh, that you cannot act that way with impunity.

我們應該強加於人，這將發出一個資訊是，嗯，你不能這樣做，而不受懲罰。

So you're saying sanctions against Russia from the U.

所以你是說美國對俄羅斯的制裁。

S.

S.

Now I'm saying certainly chemical weapons sanctions for the attacks that Russia level against individuals like Mr Navalny.

現在我要說的是，對於俄羅斯對納瓦尼先生這樣的人的攻擊，當然要進行化學武器制裁。

I say that we should be looking at sanctioning individuals that Mr Navalny has a fact identified with this anti corruption organization that are actually stealing the patrimony of Russia on we need to multilateral eyes that meaning that I hope that our European allies will join in those efforts as well to send a global message that number one Mr Navalny's have been released number two you can't do this with impunity.

我說，我們應該考慮制裁個人，納瓦尼先生有一個事實確定與這個反腐組織，實際上是偷俄羅斯的祖產，我們需要多邊的眼睛，這意味著，我希望我們的歐洲盟友將加入這些努力，以及發送一個全球性的資訊，第一納瓦尼先生的已被釋放第二，你不能這樣做有罪不罰。

So, as you know, London is awash with Russian money.

所以，如你所知，倫敦充斥著俄羅斯的錢。

What would you say to your British counterparts tonight that they should be doing right now right here, where you cannot monetized human rights and democracy on DSO at the end of the day, if there are consequences financially because, uh, those Russian dollars have entered into financial institutions in Great Britain, we have to decide what ultimately is in the national interests and security of our respective countries.

你今晚會對你的英國同行說什麼，他們現在應該做的就是在這裡，你不能在DSO上將人權和民主貨幣化，到最後，如果在經濟上有後果，因為，呃，那些俄羅斯的美元已經進入了英國的金融機構，我們必須決定什麼是最終符合我們各自國家的國家利益和安全。

Is it to allow Russia under Putin to go unbridled in its attacks against its citizens, uh, to create chemical weapons attacks on European soil?

是要讓普京上司下的俄羅斯肆無忌憚的攻擊自己的公民，呃，在歐洲的土地上製造化學武器攻擊嗎？

Uh, is it a t end of the day?

呃，這是一個T結束的一天？

The wright, uh, to go ahead and subvert our democracies, as Russia has not only tried to do in the United States, but throughout Europe and their elections.

權力，呃，繼續前進 並顛覆我們的民主制度， 因為俄羅斯已經不僅試圖做 在美國，但整個歐洲和他們的選舉。

Which misinformation?

哪些錯誤信息？

I think there comes a time in which money should not be the standard by which we make those judgments.

我想，有的時候，金錢不應該成為我們做出這些判斷的標準。

So, in practical terms, would you say that Putin allies shouldn't be allowed to own English football teams shouldn't be allowed to sit in the House of Lords.

所以，從實際情況來看，你會說普京盟友不應該被允許擁有英格蘭足球隊不應該被允許坐在上議院。

Shouldn't be allowed to buy apartments in Mayfair to launder money.

不應該讓他們在梅菲爾區買公寓來洗錢。

How far would you go?

你會走多遠？

That is a question that the British government will have to decide and its parliament have to.

這是一個英國政府必須決定的問題，也是其議會必須決定的問題。

But from my perspective, you know, I want our governments to stand up for democracy and the rule of law on if we are to do that universally and to do it strongly and efficiently, uh, then we have to make certain decisions as to what will be sanctioned because you're outside of the international order and what was permissible.

但從我的角度來看，你知道，我希望我們的政府能夠站在民主和法治的立場上，如果我們要普遍做到這一點，並強烈而有效地做到這一點，呃，那麼我們必須做出某些決定，因為你在國際秩序之外，什麼是允許的，什麼將被制裁。

Navalny listed in a letter to Joe Biden.

納瓦爾尼在給喬-拜登的信中列。

Those 35 Russian individuals Putin allies, he called them that should face greater sanctions, including Roman Abramovich.

這35名俄羅斯個人普京盟友，他稱他們應該面臨更大的制裁，包括羅曼-阿布拉莫維奇。

Deripaska was mon off.

德里帕斯卡是蒙了。

What will you do to those names that you've received directly from Navalny today?

你會怎麼處理今天直接從納瓦尼那裡得到的那些名字？

Well, of course, under our law, there is an independent, uh, investigation and analysis of the individuals, but I think he's given us a good road map.

當然，根據我們的法律，有一個獨立的， 呃，調查和分析的個人， 但我認為他給我們一個很好的路線圖。

Some of these names are are not unfamiliar to us.

其中有些名字我們並不陌生。

What is unf Amillia is that the last four years under President Trump, there was an unwillingness.

阿米利亞的是，過去四年在特朗普總統的上司下，有一種不甘心。

Thio challenge Russia under Putin on by those who surrounds in his oligarchs and his cronies in any significant way.

Thio挑戰俄羅斯在普京下由那些誰包圍在他的寡頭和他的親信以任何重要的方式。

I think that is going to change under President Biden.

我認為在拜登總統的上司下，這種情況會有所改變。

And yet many will recognize those names of Tony Blinken, John Kerry, Jake Sullivan, members of your administration now that were also part of the administration during the Obama years, when it is quite easy to argue America lacked muscularity with Russia, you were trampled all over.

然而很多人會認出這些名字，託尼-布林肯、約翰-克里、傑克-沙利文，你們現在的政府成員，在奧巴馬時期也是政府的一部分，當時很容易就會說美國對俄羅斯缺乏肌肉力量，你們被踐踏的一塌糊塗。

Well, uh, certainly I don't believe we were trumpet all over, but I would also say that there is a different president of the United States.

好吧，呃，當然我不相信我們是小號遍地，但我也想說，有一個不同的美國總統。

I served with President Biden on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when he was his chairman.

拜登總統擔任參議院外交關係委員會主席時，我曾與他一起工作。

I think his history is one of farm or muscularity, as you suggest.

我認為他的歷史是一個農場或肌肉發達，如你所建議的。

A t end of the day, a t end of the day.

在一天結束的時候，一天結束的時候。

I think that you will see a different pathway forward time.

我想，你會看到一條不同的前進道路時間。

That's help.

這就是幫助。

Interesting.

有趣的是

So you think there will be a divergence in attitudes or in relationship from the one we saw under President Obama?

所以，你認為在態度上或關係上會與我們在奧巴馬總統時期看到的有分歧？

Yes.

是的，我知道

And you also have Thio understand?

你也有Thio瞭解？

I think we all do that Russia has acted hard differently over the last several years than it has ever before.

我想我們都知道，俄羅斯在過去幾年中的表現與以往不同，它的表現很強硬。

Its interference in our elections it's interference, uh, in European elections, all of the actions that have taken place remember that there were at least sanctions levied against Russia when it's a next Crimea and invaded parts of Ukraine.

它干涉我們的選舉，它干涉，呃，歐洲的選舉，所有的行動都已經發生了，記得至少有對俄羅斯的制裁，當它是一個下一個克里米亞和入侵烏克蘭的部分地區。

So the question is more could have been done.

所以問題是可以做更多的事情。

Should have been done.

應該做的。

I was an advocate of that.

我是一個倡導者。

I just believe this administration will be far more robust in its response to Putin because I think they understand, as I understand Putin on the understanding strength since just before Ugo.

我只是相信本屆政府對普京的迴應會更加有力，因為我想他們明白，因為我明白普京對了解實力，因為就在烏戈之前。

One other related issue.

還有一個相關問題。

The Russian covert vaccine has bean approved for use today.

俄羅斯的隱蔽疫苗今天已被準許使用。

We understand it's highly effective against the disease 91 92% In an age where it seems we trust very little that is Russian.

我們知道它對這種疾病非常有效 91 92% 在這個時代，我們似乎很少相信俄羅斯的東西。

Could I ask where the you would have problems taking it, Whether you would be able to recommend this as a scientific delivery breakthrough for the countries that are buying it?

請問你在哪裡服用會有問題，你是否能推薦給購買它的國家作為科學分娩的突破口？

Absolutely.

絕對的

If it can be independently, scientifically verified, that it is a effective on efficient and safe vaccine, I have no problem with that.

如果能夠獨立地、科學地驗證，它是一種有效的、高效的、安全的疫苗，我沒有問題。

That is the intellect of the Russian people, not of its governor.

這是俄羅斯人民的智力，而不是其長官的智力。

Sentiment end has really great speak to you this evening.

感情結束後，今晚真的有很大的發言權給你。

Thank you very much indeed.

真的非常感謝你。