>> Stephen: HEY, WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.

>> Stephen:嘿，歡迎回來，各位。

MY GUESTS TONIGHT ARE THE CO-HOSTS OF SHOWTIME'S "THE

今晚我的嘉賓是SHOWTIME的 "THE "的聯合主持人。

CIRCUS."

CIRCUS。"

PLEASE WELCOME, JOHN HEILEMANN, MARK McKINNON, AND ALEX WAGNER.

請歡迎約翰-海爾曼、馬克-麥金農和亞歷克斯-瓦格納。

HI YOU THREE, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

你們三個好，謝謝你們來這裡。

>> THANK YOU, WE'RE KICKING IT, KICKING IT HARD.

>> 謝謝你，我們正在踢它，踢它硬。

>> Stephen: YOU GUYS, THE LAST TIME WE TALKED TOGETHER WAS

>> Stephen:你們這些傢伙，我們最後一次談話是...

ELECTION NIGHT, AT THE END OF WHICH, WE REALLY DID NOT KNOW

選舉之夜，在結束時，我們真的不知道。

EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON.

到底發生了什麼？

NOW WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON.

現在我們知道到底發生了什麼。

AND IT'S EXTRAORDINARILY HARROWING.

而且它是異常艱辛的。

I KNOW YOU GUYS WERE-- ALL THREE OF YOU WERE IN D.C. THIS WEEK.

我知道你們... 你們三個人這周都在華盛頓。

WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE THERE WITH 15,000 NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS ON

和15000名國民警衛隊一起在那裡是什麼感覺？

THE STREETS?

街道？

>> I MEAN, I'LL TELL YOU, AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP IN

>> 我的意思是，我會告訴你，作為一個誰長大的人在

WASHINGTON, D.C., I HAVE NEVER, EVER SEEN THE TOWN LIKE THAT.

華盛頓特區，我從來沒有見過這樣的城市。

I HAVE TRAVELED TO PLACES, YOU KNOW, ON THE CHAD SUDAN BORDER

我去過一些地方，你知道的，在查德和蘇丹的邊界上

AND THE THAI-BURMA BORDER TO PLACES WITH VERY UNSTABLE

和泰緬邊界到極不穩定的地區的影響

GOVERNMENTS AND IT TURNS OUT OURS IS JUST THE SAME.

政府，結果發現我們的也是一樣的。

I MEAN, IT REALLY FEELS LIKE THE STABILITY THAT WE HAVE ONCE

我的意思是，它真的感覺像我們曾經的穩定。

KNOWN AS A COUNTRY IN TERMS OF OUR GOVERNMENT IS GONE.

我們的政府已經不在了。

I-- I DO REALLY THINK THAT, LIKE A LOT OF THE SECURITY MEASURES

我... ... 我真的覺得，像很多安全措施一樣。

YOU SEE NOW, SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE PERMANENT.

你看現在，其中一些將是永久性的。

I REMEMBER WALKING DOWN PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE, DRIVING

我記得走在賓夕法尼亞大道上，開車的時候

DOWN PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE WHEN I

沿著賓夕法尼亞大道在白宮前走，當我...

WAS GROWING UP, THAT IS NO LONGER HAPPENING.

是長大了，這是不再發生。

AND IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THE CAPITOL IS

同樣的方式，我也會想象，首都是。

GOING CHANGE A LOT IN TERMS OF ACCESSIBILITY AND WHAT WE EXPECT

在可訪問性和我們的期望方面將發生很大的變化。

IN TERMS OF PRECAUTIONS AND DANGER IN AND AROUND THE

在國內和周邊地區的預防措施和危險性。

NATION'S CAPITOL.

國家的首都。

>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT, ALEX.

>> 說的好，艾力克斯！

IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS-- I DIDN'T GROW UP THERE,

只是，你知道，其中一件事 -- 我不是在那裡長大的。

BUT SINCE I'VE BEEN THERE, THE THING YOU LOVE ABOUT IT IS IT'S

但自從我去過之後，你喜歡它的原因是它的。

SO ACCESSIBLE.

如此方便。

YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE.

你可以去任何地方。

YOU CAN GO RIGHT UP BY THE WHITE HOUSE.

你可以去白宮旁邊。

YOU CAN GO RIGHT UP TO THE CAPITOL.

你可以直接去首都。

YOU COULDN'T EVEN GET TO THE LINCOLN MONUMENT YESTERDAY.

你今天連林肯紀念碑都去不了。

>> Stephen: THE CLOSEST THING TO COMPARE THIS TO IN TERMS OF A

>> 史蒂芬: 最接近的比較是，在術語上，這是最接近的。

SHOW OF MILITARY FORCE IS AFTER 9/11.

軍事力量的展示是在9/11之後。

HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE TO WHAT WASHINGTON FELT LIKE AFTER 9/11?

你如何與9/11後華盛頓的感覺相比？

>> WELL, BY THEN, I HAD FLED TO NEW YORK CITY.

>> 到那時，我已經飛到了紐約市。

BUT I STILL HAVE FAMILY LIVING IN THE DISTRICT.

但我還是有家人住在這個區。

AND THERE'S-- YOU KNOW, I DON'T MEAN TO BE HEAVY HANDED ABOUT

還有... 你知道，我並不是要對你手軟。

IT, BUT THERE'S A REAL SENSE OF A LOSS OF INNOCENCE.

它，但有一個真正的感覺 失去了無罪。

YOU KNOW, YOU THINK BACK TO THOSE DAYS, AND WE TOOK FOR

你知道嗎，你回想一下那些日子，我們就會發現，我們的生活是多麼的美好。

GRANTED, I THINK, OUR SENSE OF SAFETY AND OUR SENSE OF, YOU

我想，我們的安全感和我們的... ...

KNOW, OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD AND OUR LEADERSHIP IN THE WORLD AND

我們知道，我們在世界的位置和我們在世界的上司地位，我們知道，我們在世界的位置和我們在世界的上司地位。

OUR INVINCIBILITY AS AMERICANS.

我們作為美國人的自信。

AND I ABSOLUTELY THINK THE SAME THING HAS HAPPENED NOW.

我絕對認為同樣的事情現在也發生了。

IT'S REALLY AN A, B, C, D, MOMENT FOR THE COUNTRY IN TERMS

對國家來說，這真是一個A、B、C、D的時刻。

OF WHAT WE CAN EXPECT FROM AMERICAN GOVERNANCE.

我們對美國政府的期望是什麼？

>> I WOULD SAY EVEN IF YOU COMPARE TO BOTH WASHINGTON AND

>> 我想說，即使你比較華盛頓和

NEW YORK IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, YOU KNOW, NEW

9/11事件後，紐約，你知道，新的

YORK WAS RELATIVELY BACK TO NORMAL WITHIN A MONTH OF 9/11.

紐約在9/11事件後一個月內就恢復了正常。

I MEAN, I REMEMBER, LIKE-- BY THE TIME-- A MONTH AFTER 9/11,

我的意思是，我記得，像... ... 由時間..,

LIKE, U2 CAME TO TOWN AND PLAYED THE FIRST BIG GIG AT MADISON

就像，U2來到小鎮，並在麥迪遜舉行了第一場演出一樣。

SQUARE GARDEN.

SQUARE GARDEN.

YOU MIGHT REMEMBER THAT.

你可能會記得的。

IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

這是個大買賣。

IT NEVER FELT LIKE THE CITY WAS LOCKED DOWN.

它從來沒有感覺到城市被鎖住了。

IF YOU WERE MIDTOWN, UPPER WEST SIDE, EAST SIDE, YOU DIDN'T FEEL

如果你是在市中心，西區上層，東區，你就不會覺得

A HEAVY MILITARY PRESENCE, AND THAT WAS TRUE IN WASHINGTON,

大量的軍事存在，這在華盛頓是真實的。

TOO.

太。

THERE WERE CHANGES AFTER 9/11, BUT YOU NEVER FELT LIKE THE

9/11事件後有變化，但你從來沒有感覺到喜歡的人

GREEN ZONE WHICH IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE IN WASHINGTON RIGHT

綠色地帶，這是什麼感覺像在華盛頓的權利

NOW.

現在。

LITERALLY, THE THINGS THAT GOT ANNOUNCED TODAY, THE SECURING OF

從字面上看，今天宣佈的事情，安全的。

THE PERIMETER AND HOW WIDE IT IS GOING TO BE AND THE

邊界和邊界的寬度，以及

MILITARIZATION OF IT.

將其軍事化；

IT LITERALLY IS A GREEN ZONE PEOPLE ARE NOTING THAT IN THE

它實際上是一個綠色地帶，人們注意到，在這一點。

COVERAGE, THIS REALLY IS LIKE A ROCK.

覆蓋，這真的是像一塊石頭。

I HAVE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE IN THE DISTRICT AS ON EDGE ABOUT WHAT

我從來沒有看到過該地區的人對什麼事情這麼緊張。

MIGHT HAPPEN OVER THE COMING DAYS BETWEEN NOW AND NEXT

今明兩天可能會發生的事情。

WEDNESDAY.

週三：

I'VE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE MORE ON EDGE, AND THAT INCLUDES AFTER

我從來沒有見過的人更多的邊緣，這包括之後的

9/11.

9/11.

>> WELL, THE BIG DIFFERENCE, TOO, IS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS

>> 最大的區別是，你知道，它是... ...

CHILLING AT THAT TIME, BUT WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE OVER

那時候我們很開心，但我們擔心人們的安全。

THERE DOING SOMETHING TO US.

在那裡做一些事情給我們。

NOW WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE RIGHT HERE DOING SOMETHING TO

現在我們擔心的是這裡的人們會做出什麼事來。

US.

美國：

US.

美國：

>> Stephen: MARK, I KNOW YOU ATTENDED THE PRESIDENT'S RALLY

>> 馬克，我知道你參加了總統的集會。

AT THE ECLIPSE BEFORE THEY MARCHED OVER.

在他們行進過來之前，他們在山頂上。

THAT WAS THE-- WHAT WAS THE FEELING NACROWD?

那是... ... 那是什麼感覺？

YOU KNOW, TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE THERE WHILE THE

你知道嗎，告訴我，當你在那裡的時候是什麼感覺？

SPEECHES WERE BEING MADE?

演講是在做什麼？

>> WELL, IT WAS INCREDIBLE, STEPHEN.

>> 好吧，這是難以置信的，史蒂芬。

I MEAN, IT FELT LIKE BEING IN A SEA OF HUMAN NITROGLYCERIN.

我的意思是，這感覺就像在人類硝化甘油的海洋裡。

I HAVE BEEN AT A LOT OF TRUMP RALLIES.

我參加過很多特朗普的集會。

THIS WAS DIFFERENT.

這是不一樣的。

PEOPLE WERE NOT ONLY ANIMATED.

人不僅是卡通片。

THEY WERE ANGRY AND ON EDGE.

他們很生氣，處於邊緣狀態。

ALL IT TOOK WAS SOMEBODY TO SHAKE AND COMBUST THIS THING AND

所有它所需要的是一些人搖晃和燃燒這個東西，並。

THE PRESIDENT CAME OUT AND DID EXACTLY THAT.

主席出來後，完全是這樣做的。

I WOULD HAVE BEEN SURPRISED IF PEOPLE HADN'T GONE AND DONE

如果人們沒有去做，我也會感到驚訝。

SOMETHING VIOLENT AND BREAK THE LAW OR CREATE THE KIND OF

一些暴力的東西，違反了法律或創造了那種。

CATASTROPHE AND TRAGEDY THAT WE SAW.

我們看到的災難和悲劇。

YOU KNOW, THE FACT IS YOU THINK ABOUT HOW DIABOLICAL THIS WHOLE

你知道，事實是，你想想看，這一切有多二心。

THING WAS, AND HOW UNSURPRISING THE OUTCOME WAS.

事情是，以及如何令人驚訝的結果是。

YOU SAID BEFORE THE ELECTION, YOU SAID, IF I WIN, GREAT, IF I

你在選舉前說過，如果我贏了，很好，如果我...

DON'T, IT WAS STOLEN.

不要，它被偷了。

THAT WAS THE MESSAGE HE SOWED TO ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO SHOWED UP

這就是他對所有這些出現的人發出的資訊。

AT THE CAPITOL AND HE SAID VERY CLEARLY, LET'S GO TO THE

在首都，他很明確地說，我們去首都吧

CAPITOL.

CAPITOL：

AND IF YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY BACK, DON'T SHOW WEAKNESS."

如果你想讓你的國家回來，就不要表現出軟弱。"

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT?

你到底在想什麼？

I WAS NOT SURPRISED.

我並不感到驚訝。

I WAS SHOCKED AT WHAT THEY DID.

我對他們的所作所為感到震驚。

BUT I COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH ANY OF MY COLLEAGUES BECAUSE IT

但我不能和我的任何一個同事溝通，因為它是

WAS LIKE BEING AT A HUGE CONCERT, SO WE COULDN'T GET ANY

就像在一個巨大的音樂會，所以我們不能得到任何。

CELL PHONE COVERAGE OUT.

手機覆蓋出。

AND I WAS WORRIED AS EVERYBODY WENT TO THE CAPITOL.

我很擔心，因為每個人都去了首都。

I WAS WORRIED ABOUT WHERE MY COLLEAGUES WERE.

我很擔心我的同事在哪裡。

AND I DISCOVERED HEILEMANN WAS PRETTY CLOSE TO IT.

而我發現海爾曼也很接近它。

>> Stephen: WE HAVE A CLIP HERE, JOHN.

>> Stephen:我們有一個片段在這裡，約翰。

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE SURE WHAT WE'RE ABOUT TO RUN.

我不知道你是否知道我們要做什麼。

YOU CAN SET THIS UP?

你可以設置這個？

>> YEAH, I HAD BEEN-- I HAD BEEN AT A COMFORTABLE DISTANCE

>> 是的，我已經 -- 我已經在一個舒適的距離。

THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE KNEW THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE THE

想到這一點，你知道，我們知道，有將會是的

JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS, WHICH WAS GOING TO BE KIND OF A

國會聯席會議，這將是一個什麼樣的

FARCICAL ATTEMPT AT A COUP.

試圖對一個夫婦進行暴力襲擊。

WE KNEW THERE WERE GOING TO BE THESE OBJECTIONS TO THE

我們知道會有這些反對意見的。

ELECTORAL COLLEGE CERTIFICATION, TED CRUZ, JOSH HAWLEY, THERE

選舉學院證書，TED CRUZ，JOSH HAWLEY，那裡

WOULD BE THESE DEBATES, THERE WOULD BE THESE VOTES, THEY WOULD

會有這些辯論，會有這些投票，他們會... ...

GET VOTE DOWN.

獲得投票下來。

AND I WAS OVER IN GEORGETOWN WATCHING ON TELEVISION EXPECTING

而我在喬治城看電視的時候就在期待著

TO COVER IT THAT WAY.

要覆蓋它的方式。

AND THEN WHEN THE RIOTS STARTED, I GOT IN A CAR PRETTY FAST WITH

然後當暴動開始時，我就迅速上了一輛車，和他一起

MY CREW AND DROVE UP TO THE-- THAT SIDE OF THE CAPITOL WHERE

我的隊員們開到了... 首都的那一邊，在那裡。

THE SUPREME COURT IS AND GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND THEN WENT

最高法院是，然後下了車，然後去了。

STRAIGHT IN.

直入。

>> Stephen: JIM, LET'S ROLL THIS CLIP.

>> Stephen:吉姆，讓我們來播放這個片段。

♪ ♪ >> THIS IS A SAD, PATHETIC

這是個悲哀的，可悲的

AFTERMATH OF THIS UTTER ( BLEEP ) SHOW.

後續的這個UTTER（BLEEP）顯示。

>> FOUR MORE YEARS!

>> 再過四年！

>> FOUR MORE YEARS!

>> 再過四年！

( EXPLOSION ).

（爆炸）。

>> Stephen: JOHN, WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO BE IN THAT CROWD?

>> Stephen:約翰，在那群人中是什麼感覺？

>> DISCONCERTING.

>>令人震驚。

AND, I MEAN, WE HAD GONE AROUND THE SIDE OF THE CAPITOL AT THAT

而且，我是說，我們當時已經繞到了國會大廈的側面。

POINT TO WHERE THE BIGGEST CROWD ON THE OUTSIDE WAS STILL

指向外面最大的人群還在哪裡？

GATHERED.

召集。

AND AS MARK SAID, THE HEIGHT OF THE RIOT HAD ENDED AT THAT

正如馬克所說，暴亂的高潮在那一刻結束了。

POINT, BUT THE CAPITOL WAS NOT SECURE AT THAT POINT SO A LOT OF

點，但首都在那個時候並不安全，所以有很多的

RIOT POLICE WERE JUST ARRIVING.

防暴警察剛剛到達。

AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE NATIONAL GUARD WERE VERY LATE TO THE

大家都知道，國民警衛隊遲遲沒來，因為他們是一個很好的例子。

SCENE, AND A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE LOITERING AROUND.

場景，很多人都在四處閒逛。

SOE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN INSIDE WERE ON THE OUTSIDE, AND

所以，那些在裡面的人都在外面，而且...

SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE WERE STILL TRYING TO GET

外圍的一些人還在試圖獲得。

IN.

IN：

IN THAT CROWD, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT, WE ALL KNOW HAVING

在那群人中，我們都知道有一件事...

COVERED VARIOUS TRUMP RALLIES OVER THE YEARS, THERE IS NOT

報道了多年來多次特朗普的集會，並沒有。

JUST A LOT OF HOSTILITY TOWARDS THE MEDIA, THEY'RE VERY TUNED IN

只是對媒體有很多敵意，他們很聽話。

TO SEEING PEOPLE WITH CAMERAS.

看到人們用攝影機。

THERE'S A LOT OF IMMEDIATE LIKE, "WHO ARE YOU WITH?

有很多即時的喜歡，"你和誰在一起？"。

ARE YOU FAKE NEWS?

你是假新聞嗎？

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?" IF I'M TRYING TO DO WHAT I DO

你在說什麼？""如果我想做我所做的事

AND DO A RUNNING COMMENTARY GOING THROUGH THE CROWD AND

並做一個運行的評論，通過人群和

MAKING OBSERVATIONS I'M ALSO CONSTANTLY LOOKING AROUND TO

我也在不斷地觀察著

MAKE SURE WHEN PEOPLE ARE LEANING IN TO LISTEN TO WHAT I'M

確保當人們俯身聽我說話的時候。

SAYING THAT I'M NOT SAYING SOMETHING THAT WILL LEAD DOWN A

說我沒有說什麼會讓你失望的話語。

BAD PATH.

壞路。

I WAS TRYING TO DO THE JOURNALISTIC THING AND REPORT ON

我試圖做記者的事情，並報告在

IT IS BUT TRY TO MAKE SURE MY CREW AND I DIDN'T GET INTO A

是的，但要確保我和我的團隊沒有陷入困境。

MELEE, AND THE TIGHTER THE CROWD IS, THE MORE YOU REALIZED IF

MELEE，人群越緊張，你就越意識到，如果...

THEY TURN ON YOU THERE MIGHT NOT BE A WAY OUT.

他們背叛了你，也許就沒有出路了。

WE WERE VERY ATTUNED TO ALL OF THAT.

我們對這一切都很適應。

THAT SHOT OR FLASHBANG WENT OFF-- I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT IT

那一槍或閃光彈爆炸了 -- 我仍然不知道它是什麼。

WAS.

WAS：

IT DIDN'T SOUND IN THE END LIKE A GUNSHOT.

最後聽起來不像是槍聲。

I THINK IT WAS A FLASHBANG THROWN BY RIOT POLICE BUT AT THE

我認為這是一個閃光燈爆炸的防暴警察，但在。

MOMENT YOU DON'T KNOW AND AS YOU CAN SEE, I SHUDDERED THERE AND

你不知道的時刻，你可以看到，我在那裡顫抖，並

GOT OUT AS QUICK AS I COULD.

儘快離開，因為我可以。

AS YOU COULD SEE ON MY FACE AS I WALKED UP, THERE'S SO MUCH TO

你可以看到我的臉，因為我走了，有這麼多的東西。

SAY ABOUT WHAT WE'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING THE LAST WEEK OR SO

說說我們過去一週左右的經歷吧

AND THE STORY GETS WORSE AND WORSE BY THE DAY, BY THE HOUR,

故事一天比一天糟糕，一小時比一小時糟糕。

THE MORE WE KNOW ABOUT THIS, ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF

我們知道得越多，就越有可能出現這種情況

COLLABORATION, REPUBLICANS WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN-- THE

共和黨人可能是-------------------------。

CONVENTIONAL WISDOM AMONG A LOT OF DEMOCRATS AND SOME

很多民主黨人和一些人的約定俗成的智慧。

REPUBLICANS THAT THIS WAS AN INSIDE JOB.

共和黨人認為這是一個內部工作。

JUST THE EXTENT OF THE VIOLENCE, THE DEGREE-- THE REPORTING NOW

只是暴力的範圍， 程度 - 報告現在

WE KNOW THE RIOTERS WERE THERE TO KIDNAP, KILL, ASSASSINATE

我們知道暴亂分子是去綁架、殺害、暗殺的。

POLITICAL LEADERS.

政治領導人：

EVEN IN THE MOMENT BEFORE I KNEW ANY OF THAT, IT WAS

即使在我知道這些之前的那一刻，它是

HEARTBREAKING TO SEE THIS HAPPEN TO THE CAPITOL, A PLACE I HAVE

看到首都發生這樣的事情，我很傷心，我曾在這裡生活過。

BEEN, YOU KNOW, VISITING AND COVERING SINCE 1980-- I WONDER

一直，你知道，訪問和覆蓋從1980年開始 - 我想知道。

ON CPITOL HILL WHEN I FIRST GOT OUT OF COLLEGE, 1987.

在CPITOL山 當我第一次走出大學，1987年。

TO SEE THAT SPECTACLE THERE, I WAS ON THE-- THE BRIG TEARS FOR

我看到了那片天空，我在... ...大兵的眼淚

MOST OF THE SESSION AS WE WALKED AROUND, AND IN A LOT OF WAYS I

大部分的會議，我們走了一圈，並在很多方式，我。

FEEL LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW.

感覺就像現在。

>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK.

>> Stephen:我們必須休息一下。

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE MARK McKINNON, ALEX WAGNER,

我們馬上回來，有更多的馬克-麥金農，亞歷克斯-瓦格納。

AND JOHN HEILEMANN FROM "THE CIRCUS."

和約翰-海爾曼從 "馬戲團"。