about today's events.

關於今天的事件。

He's a multiple Emmy and Peabody Award-winning journalist

他是一位多次獲得艾美獎和皮博迪獎的記者。

and "The New York Times" best-selling author

和 "紐約時報 "暢銷書作家。

of "What Unites Us."

的 "我們的團結"。

Here is my conversation with the one and only Dan Rather.

這是我與唯一的丹-拉瑟的對話。

Dan, thank you so much for being here tonight.

丹，非常感謝你今晚的到來。

-Jimmy, thank you for having me on.

-吉米，謝謝你邀請我參加。

It's a privilege and an honor to be with you. Thank you.

能和你在一起，是我的榮幸。謝謝你。

-We thought the big news of the day

-我們以為是今天的大新聞

was going to be how things went in Georgia

喬治亞州的情況就是這樣

and with the electoral-vote count,

並與選舉票數。

but then this afternoon, Trump supporters stormed the Capitol.

但今天下午，特朗普的支持者衝進了國會大廈。

And we're talking a few hours before this will air,

而且我們說的是幾小時後才會播出。

but could you give us a breakdown

但你能不能給我們一個細分

of what happened today and where things stand now

今夕何夕

as events continue to unfold?

隨著事件的不斷髮展？

-Well, things are continuing to unfold.

-好吧，事情還在繼續發展。

During the evening, I expect they will continue

在晚上，我預計他們會繼續

even deep into the early morning hours

凌晨時分

because this has been an absolutely --

因為這一直是一個絕對 -

and frequently overworked word but an apt word in this case.

而且經常被過度使用的詞，但在這種情況下卻是一個恰當的詞。

This is an absolutely unprecedented situation

這絕對是前所未有的情況

for our country and one -- and a very serious situation.

對我國來說，這是一個非常嚴重的情況。

Basically what happened was that, increasingly, it appeared

基本上發生的情況是，越來越多的人認為

that the two Democratic candidates were winning

注意到兩名民主黨候選人正在獲勝

and had won the Senate runoff races in Georgia.

並曾在佐治亞州的參議院第二輪選舉中獲勝。

This would, of course, mean that the Democrats

當然，這將意味著民主黨人的

would have effective control of the Senate

將有效控制參議院

in the new Biden administration.

在拜登新政府的。

So, that news didn't really get solidified

所以，這個消息並沒有得到真正的鞏固。

until the wee hours of early this morning.

直到今天凌晨。

After that, there was a rally planned

之後，有一個集會計劃

in front of the White House, a pro-Trump rally.

在白宮前，一個支持特朗普的集會。

The President -- I use the word "incited" it.

主席 -- -- 我用的是 "煽動 "一詞。

You can't use any other word.

你不能用別的詞。

Incited the crowd to march down to the Capitol

煽動民眾向國會大廈進軍。

and to force a delay

並強行拖延

in the certification of Biden's victory.

在證明拜登獲勝的。

That was to be the other big headline of the day.

這本來是今天的另一個大頭條。

The big headline of the day was expected to be Democrats

當天的大頭條預計是民主黨的

win two Senate races in Georgia

在佐治亞州贏得兩場參議院選舉

and the combined Congressional power in the country

以及該國國會的綜合權力。

certifying the final electoral votes.

核證最後的選舉票數，

Even as Vice President Pence was presiding in the chamber

即使是副總統彭斯在主持會議的時候

and the final certification of the Biden victory

和拜登勝選的最終證明

was getting under way,

正在進行中。

then this crowd stormed the U.S. Capitol.

然後這群人衝進了美國國會大廈。

You can describe it as "protesters," if you like.

如果你願意，你可以用 "抗議者 "來形容。

I, myself, think they were certainly rioters.

我自己認為，他們肯定是暴亂分子。

They broke windows. They were violent.

他們打破了窗戶。他們很暴力。

They stormed the Capitol.

他們衝進了國會大廈。

They stormed actually into the room where --

他們居然衝進了房間...

the chamber, where the deliberation was happening.

廳，在那裡進行審議。

All hell broke loose.

所有的地獄爆發了。

There was no law and there was no order for a while.

一時之間，沒有法律，沒有秩序。

You had mob violence

你有暴徒暴力

inside the Capitol of the United States.

在美國國會大廈內。

Now finally the law-enforcement officers, first of all,

現在終於有了執法人員，首先。

they got some reinforcements.

他們得到了一些增援。

Secondly, they sort of solidified their own response.

其次，他們算是鞏固了自己的對策。

And most, if not all,

而大多數，甚至全部。

of what I call the rioters were put outside the Capitol.

我所說的騷亂者被關在國會大廈外。

It's a little hard to say what the situation is at this moment,

此時此刻，情況有些難說。

and I emphasize that it's fluid.

而且我強調，它是流動的。

But here's the thing, Jimmy.

但事情是這樣的，吉米

We have never seen this in our country before --

我們從來沒有見過這種情況，在我們國家以前 -

an effort to overthrow

推翻

the legitimate vote of the people

民心所向

in a presidential election.

在總統選舉中。

This was by any dictionary definition

這是任何字典上的定義

a coup attempt, which is to say,

政變企圖，也就是說：

"Okay, we've had an election.

"好吧，我們已經進行了選舉。

We, this mob, we don't agree

我們，這群人，我們不同意。

with the outcome of the election,

與選舉結果。

which even the courts have certified in their own way.

連法院都以自己的方式證明了這一點。

And we're going to overturn it."

而我們要推翻它。"

That's a definition of a coup, and I do think

這就是政變的定義，我認為... ...

this could be described as a case of domestic violence.

這可以說是一個家庭暴力的案例。

Not everybody in this crowd of people were violent today.

今天這群人中，並不是所有人都有暴力傾向。

Not nearly everybody.

不是每個人都這樣。

But there certainly were outright rioters

但肯定有直接的暴動者。

who were taking part in domestic violence,

參與家庭暴力的人。

and the overall scene was one of a coup attempt.

而整體場景是一場未遂的政變。

It has failed. That's pretty much where we are.

它已經失敗了。這就是我們的現狀。

-Do you think there will be charges against these people?

-你認為會對這些人提出指控嗎？

-Well, let's be very clear. There should be

-好吧，讓我們非常清楚。應該有...

because if you break windows in the U.S. Capitol

因為如果你打碎了美國國會大廈的窗戶

and go in and occupy the offices

進佔

of elected representatives of the country,

國家民選代表，

those are crimes.

這些都是犯罪。

Whether they will be prosecuted or not,

無論他們是否會被起訴。

frankly, I have my doubts as time goes along.

坦率地說，隨著時間的推移，我也有疑慮。

But there is a movement to try to identify those people

但是，有一個運動，試圖識別這些人

who were actually breaking windows and occupying offices

破窗而入的人

and bring charges against them.

並對他們提出指控。

But the real important question of the moment, Jimmy,

但現在真正重要的問題是，吉米。

and I think this will play out over the next few days,

而我認為這將在未來幾天內上演。

is what is to be done about the president of the United States?

是要對美國總統做什麼？

Make no mistake -- there are talks in the Capitol

別搞錯了... ... 國會大廈里正在進行談判。

among some Republicans, including some Democrats,

在一些共和黨人，包括一些民主黨人中。

of should some move be made to remove President Trump

是否應該採取一些行動來解除特朗普總統的職務？

from office in just his last 13 days?

在他最後13天的時間裡，就從辦公室離開了？

He only has 13 more days in office.

他只有13天的任期了。

That shows you how serious the situation is.

由此可見，情況有多嚴重。

I'm not saying that any of that's going to happen.

我不是說這一切都會發生。

You know, under the 25th Amendment to the Constitution,

你知道，根據憲法第25條修正案。

if the Vice President

如果副總統

and a majority of the cabinet secretaries

和大多數內閣祕書

agree that the President is not capable

同意總統沒有能力

or won't carry out his duties, then they can ask the Congress

或者不履行他的職責，那麼他們可以要求國會

to have a vote in both houses to remove the President.

在兩院進行表決以罷免總統。

That's a major step.

這是一個重要的步驟。

I wouldn't go so far as to say

我不會去那麼遠，因為說

that we can expect that step to happen,

我們可以預期這一步會發生。

but it gives you an indication, again, of how serious this is,

但它給你一個跡象，再次， 這是多麼嚴重。

when you have that kind of serious talk

語重心長

in the Capitol of the United States.

在美國國會大廈。

It's the result of this unprecedented day

這就是這前所未有的一天的結果。

in which as a country, as a people,

在其中作為一個國家，作為一個民族。

we embarrassed ourselves. -How --

我們讓自己很尷尬。-如何 --

-In the eyes of the world,

-在世界的眼中，

we clearly embarrassed ourselves.

我們顯然是在為難自己。

-How much is President Trump to blame for what happened today

-今天發生的事情，特朗普總統有多少責任？

and who else is to blame?

還能怪誰呢？

-Well, I'll give you my opinion, Jimmy,

-好吧，我給你我的意見，吉米。

but, you know, I always like to be straight with you.

但是，你知道，我總是喜歡跟你說實話。

There are plenty of people who have other opinions,

有很多人有其他意見。

but I think that history is going to judge

但我認為，歷史會評判

that President Trump primarily is responsible

特朗普總統主要負責

for what happened today.

對於今天發生的事情。

The power of the presidency

總統的權力

is a power to inspire and/or to incite.

是一種激勵和/或煽動的力量。

And, clearly, President Trump has been trying to incite

而且，很明顯，特朗普總統一直在試圖煽動。

just this kind of action.

就這樣的動作。

There's no -- You know,

沒有... 你知道的

I don't see that there's any real argument about it.

我看不出有什麼真正的爭論。

The argument can be, "Well, he was justified in doing it,"

論點可以是，"嗯，他這樣做是有道理的，"

which is a false argument.

這是個錯誤的論點。

But the direct answer to your question --

但對你問題的直接回答是...

that the buck starts with President Trump,

特朗普總統才是最重要的。

and it goes through those members of his party,

並通過他的那些黨員。

the Republican Party.

共和黨。

Not all members of the Republican Party,

不是所有的共和黨成員。

but, really, a large majority of members of the Republican Party

但是，實際上，共和黨的大部分成員

have aided and abetted the President

助紂為虐

in convincing a large section of the American public

在說服大部分美國公眾的過程中。

that Joe Biden would be an illegitimate president,

喬-拜登將是一個非法的總統。

that the election was not legitimate

選舉是不合法的

and Biden wasn't legitimately elected.

而拜登也不是合法當選的。

It started with the President.

這是從總統開始的。

It goes through his enablers and allies

它通過他的支持者和盟友

and people within the Republican Party.

和共和黨內的人。

And then, again, frankly, Jimmy, none of us can say

然後，再一次，坦率地說，吉米，我們沒有人可以說：

that we don't share at least some of the blame

咎由自取

because we have let this happen.

因為我們讓這一切發生了。

We have reached this point in our history

我們已經到了歷史上的這個階段

where we have an undisciplined mob,

在那裡我們有一個不守紀律的暴徒。

including some rioters and domestic terrorism,

包括一些騷亂分子和國內恐怖主義。

storming our own Capitol.

衝進我們自己的國會大廈

Exclamation point.

感嘆號。

-Were you surprised to see how easy it was for them

-你是否驚訝於看到他們如此輕鬆地完成任務

to break into the Capitol?

闖入國會大廈？

-I was surprised.

-我很驚訝

Perhaps, I shouldn't have been, but I thought, frankly,

也許，我不應該這樣，但我想，坦白地說。

that a combination of the Capitol police

國會警察的組合

and the Washington police and federal forces,

以及華盛頓警方和聯邦部隊。

such as the FBI and others,

如聯邦調查局等。

would have a plan for meeting this kind of effort

會有一個計劃來滿足這種努力。

to a mob take over the Capitol,

到暴徒接管國會大廈。

so I was surprised

不料

that law enforcement was not more effective.

執法沒有更有效。

In the early going, it was not effective at all.

在早期，它根本沒有效果。

But before we criticize the law-enforcement officers,

但是，在我們責備執法人員之前。

I want to know what instructions they had.

我想知道他們有什麼訓示。

I don't know what instructions they had.

我不知道他們有什麼訓示。

In the early going, they just -- they fled the mob.

在早期，他們只是... ... 他們逃離了暴徒。

They just -- They absolutely fled.

他們只是... ... 他們絕對是逃跑了。

They just fled -- The law-enforcement officers,

他們只是逃跑了... 執法人員。

that Capitol police, and others there just fled the scene.

國會警察和其他人剛剛逃離了現場。

After a while, they began to try to get control,

過了一會兒，他們開始嘗試控制。

but in the early going, the performance was very poor.

但在前期，表現非常糟糕。

But, again, that may be on orders from some other place,

但是，這又可能是其他地方的訂單。

including, you know, somebody in the Capitol

包括，你知道，有人在國會大廈，

who's in charge of the force.

誰在負責的力量。

We just have to see.

我們只能拭目以待了。

But, you know, as we speak now, Jimmy,

但是，你知道，就在我們說話的時候，Jimmy，

the National Guard has been called in.

國民警衛隊已被召集。

I think a strong case could be made

我認為可以提出一個強有力的理由

given the consequences of today that the National Guard

鑑於今天的後果，國民警衛隊

should have been standing by as this day started

早該枕戈待旦

because President Trump had already scheduled that rally.

因為特朗普總統已經安排了那次集會。

But nonetheless, order is being restored in the Capitol.

但儘管如此，國會大廈的秩序正在恢復。

The National Guard is now there.

國民警衛隊現在在那裡。

Things will probably simmer down somewhat

事情可能會有所緩和

over the next 12 to 24 hours,

在未來12到24小時內。

but we as a country, as a people,

但我們作為一個國家，作為一個民族。

we're stuck with the question, "What do we do now?"

我們的問題是，"我們現在該怎麼辦？"

We know this is embarrassing.

我們知道這很尷尬。

We know this is not the American way.

我們知道這不是美國人的方式。

We know it's perilous.

我們知道這是很危險的。

It's very dangerous to have this situation prevail.

這種情況盛行是非常危險的。

So the question is, what do we do now?

那麼問題是，我們現在該怎麼辦？

-There's lots more I want to talk to you about.

-我還有很多話想跟你說呢。

More with Dan Rather when we come back

等我們回來的時候，會有更多丹-拉瑟的消息

to "The Tonight Show," everybody.

到 "今夜秀"，大家。

-Thank you, Jimmy.

-謝謝你，吉米