Democrats in the US House of Representatives have introduced an article of impeachment against Donald Trump.

美國眾議院的民主黨人提出了一項針對唐納德-特朗普的彈劾文章。

They charge the president with inciting insurrection following the deadly riot at the US Capitol last week.

上週美國國會大廈發生致命騷亂後，他們指控總統煽動起義。

Trump is set to become the first US president to face impeachment proceedings twice.

特朗普將成為首位兩次面臨彈劾程序的美國總統。

The vote could take place as soon as Wednesday, less than a week after protesters stormed it.

投票可能最快在週三舉行，在抗議者衝進投票後不到一週。

Theo Capital is much changed on the after effects air not just evident outside inside the Democrats air intent on removing Donald Trump, who they say is responsible for the violence resolution calling on Vice President Michel are pence to convince First, the vice president was urged to use his constitutional authority to activate Section four of the 25th Amendment to declare President Donald J.

西奧資本在後效空氣上有很大的變化，不僅僅是明顯的外在裡面的民主黨人空氣打算去除唐納德-特朗普，他們說是負責暴力決議呼籲副總統米歇爾是彭斯說服第一，敦促副總統使用他的憲法權力，啟動第25修正案的第四節，宣佈總統唐納德-J。

Trump incapable of executing the duties of his office and to immediately exercise Powers is acting president.

特朗普無力執行職務，立即行使權力是代理總統。

Republicans quickly blocked the move.

共和黨人很快就阻止了這一行動。

I object.

我反對。

Democrats then introduced an article of impeachment against Trump, which could be voted on as early as Wednesday.

民主黨人隨後提出了針對特朗普的彈劾條款，最早可能在週三進行表決。

It charges him with incitement of insurrection, referring directly to last week's capital rampage.

它指控他煽動叛亂，直指上週的首都暴動。

Even if Democrats have enough votes in the house, it could be difficult to win over the Senate.

即使民主黨在眾議院有足夠的票數，也很難贏得參議院的支持。

The main issue is not on the House side.

主要問題不在眾議院方面。

It's on the Senate side.

是在參議院那邊。

The Senate is not around.

元老院不在身邊。

They're not scheduled to come back until the 19th.

他們要到19日才會回來。

And so there's really nothing forcing them to do anything, um, quicker than that and a tri ALS again, if if they wanted, they could rush it through.

所以，真的沒有什麼強迫他們做任何事情，嗯，比這更快，再來一次三聯症，如果他們想，他們可以匆匆完成。

But they would not want to do that.

但他們不會願意這樣做。

Neither side.

兩邊都沒有。

Whether it be sooner or later, many Washington residents feel action needs to be taken.

不管是早還是晚，許多華盛頓州的居民都覺得需要採取行動。

It seems pretty clear that the president was breaking the law and encouraged inciting a riot, encouraging sedition.

這似乎很清楚，總統是違法的，鼓勵煽動暴亂，鼓勵煽動。

Um, and you know, even though it's 10 days, I think that, you know, having consequences for reaction should mean something, no matter who it is.

嗯，你知道，即使它是10天， 我認為，你知道，有反應的後果 應該意味著什麼，不管是誰。

I think the inflammatory words of Senator Cruz and Senator Holly clearly had an exacting and strong effect on the events of Wednesday.

我認為，克魯茲參議員和霍利參議員的煽動性話語顯然對週三的事件產生了確切而強烈的影響。

Um, yeah, I think you should hold them accountable.

嗯，是的，我認為你應該讓他們負責。

I don't know what that looks like.

我不知道那是什麼樣子的。

History will look back on this, and if we do not act on this moment, we failed.

歷史將回顧這一點，如果我們不在這個時刻採取行動，我們就失敗了。

And so I think that's really critical that we do our job as Americans as a government to put down the possibility of this ever happened again.

所以我認為這真的是至關重要的，我們做我們的工作，作為美國人作為一個政府，把這種可能性再次發生。

But with the president having just over a week left in office, lawmakers will be pressed to move fast for more.

但由於總統的任期僅剩一週多，立法者將迫於壓力而快速行動，爭取更多。

I'm now joined by DW reporter Joel Delroy Joel.

我現在由DW記者Joel Delroy Joel加入。

Welcome.

歡迎你的到來

Uh, Trump has one week left in office.

呃，特朗普還有一個星期的任期。

Why still impeach him now?

為什麼現在還在彈劾他？

Well, that would send a message that undermining electoral results and encouraging people to try and overturn the results is not acceptable behavior in a democracy.

好吧，這將發出一個資訊，即破壞選舉結果，鼓勵人們試圖推翻選舉結果，這在民主國家是不可接受的行為。

But also, it would bar Trump from ever standing for office again should he decide to do so after he steps down after he leaves office.

但同時，如果特朗普在卸任後決定下臺，也將禁止他再次參選。

Now, of course, impeachment faces huge hurdles is going to pass the House, no doubt.

現在，當然，彈劾面臨巨大的障礙是要通過眾議院，毫無疑問。

But it also has to pass the Senate, and it would have to do so with a two thirds majority, which the Democrats do not have.

但它還必須通過參議院，而且必須獲得三分之二的多數票，而民主黨並不具備這樣的條件。

That means many Republicans would have to vote with them, and so far the number of Republicans who have publicly spoken out against Trump is still in the single digits is very far of what would be needed.

這意味著很多共和黨人要和他們一起投票，到目前為止，公開發表反對特朗普言論的共和黨人數量還在個位數，離需要的數量還很遠。

The one Republican senator who actually did vote to Impeach Trump last time.

上次真正投票彈劾特朗普的一位共和黨參議員。

Mitt Romney has also said that he suggested he doesn't think it's the right way to go.

米特-羅姆尼也表示，他建議他認為這不是正確的方式。

Uh, you've got to remember that Republicans have to think about their long term strategy here to more than 48% of voters voted for Trump, and they're not going away anytime soon.

呃，你要記住，共和黨人必須考慮他們的長期戰略，在這裡超過48%的選民投票給特朗普，他們不會很快消失。

And Republicans have to think about midterm elections and going forward.

而共和黨人必須考慮中期選舉和未來的發展。

What's gonna happen to those trump supporters and, of course, impeachments of very lengthy process.

那些特朗普的支持者會怎麼樣，當然，彈劾的過程非常漫長。

It could now last until after Trump has even left office.

現在可能會持續到特朗普離任後。

That's what we're hearing from from Democrats as a more of a symbolic acts to bar him from office.

這就是我們從民主黨人那裡聽到的更多的是禁止他上任的象徵性行為。

But it also means for those of us around the world who thought we had heard the end of Trump, we're going to be hearing a lot more from and about him.

但這也意味著，對於我們全世界那些以為已經聽到特朗普結局的人來說，我們將聽到更多來自他的消息和關於他的消息。

So, ironically, by trying to silence Trump, Democrats may actually be giving him more oxygen in the future.

所以，具有諷刺意味的是，民主黨人試圖讓特朗普閉嘴，實際上可能會在未來給他更多的氧氣。

Have there been any reactions from the White House from the president himself to that move?

白宮對總統本人的這一舉動有什麼反應嗎？

Well, of course, we haven't heard much from him because he has been banned from social media from Twitter and Facebook, but he has been making some official acts.

好吧，當然，我們還沒有聽到他的什麼消息，因為他已經被禁止在Twitter和Facebook的社交媒體上使用，但他一直在做出一些官方行為。

For example, he did authorize a state of emergency declaration for Washington on DPI.

例如，他確實授權在新聞部宣佈華盛頓進入緊急狀態。

Privately, it's being reported that he's making a lot of phone calls to his loyalists, still complaining about the electoral results on according toa one report from the new site, Axios.

私下裡，據報道，他正在給他的忠誠者打很多電話，還在抱怨選舉結果上根據新網站Axios的一份報告。

He's also now indulging in the latest conspiracy theory, which says that or claims that it was actually left wing insurgents from the nebulous group Antifa who were involved in storming the Capitol, not his supporters.

他現在還沉迷於最新的陰謀論，說或聲稱參與衝擊國會大廈的其實是虛無縹緲的組織Antifa的左翼叛亂分子，而不是他的支持者。

Now, of course, this is, uh, clearly false.

現在，當然，這是，呃，顯然是假的。

You can see that from the images, but it means that Trump, any supporters are still living in some kind of parallel reality ahead of Joe Biden.

從圖片中可以看出，但這意味著特朗普，任何支持者仍然生活在喬-拜登之前的某種平行現實中。

Swearing in the security situation is delicate not only in Washington, D.

宣誓安全形勢微妙，不僅在華盛頓特區。

C.

C.

What air law enforcement agencies bracing for ahead of the inauguration.

空政執法機構在就職前準備了什麼。

Well, the FBI says it is prepared because they believe that armed supporters may hold up protests in up to 50 states around the nation in the coming days.

聯邦調查局說，它已經做好了準備，因為他們相信，武裝支持者可能會在未來幾天在全國多達50個州舉行抗議活動。

There's there's apparently threats on on Inauguration Day itself.

有... ...有明顯的威脅 在就職典禮日本身。

The Pentagon has authorized 15,000 troops to be in the capital.

五角大樓已經授權在首都駐紮1.5萬名阿兵哥。

They put up fences around the building and maybe a little too late, you might say.

他們在大樓周圍設置了圍欄，也許你會說，有點太晚了。

But Washington's mayor is actually urging people to stay away for the inauguration.

但華盛頓的市長其實是在呼籲人們不要去參加就職典禮。

We can't forget.

我們不能忘記。

There's also the coronavirus pandemic to think about eso instead of crowds.

還有冠狀病毒大流行，要考慮eso而不是人群。

We're going to see just a very small number of people out there was supporting the incoming president, Joe Biden.

我們將看到只有極少數人在那裡支持新任總統喬-拜登。

It will be an inauguration like no other.

這將是一場前所未有的就職典禮。

Right DWS Joel Delroy, Thank you very much.

好的 DWS Joel Delroy 謝謝你

I'm joined tonight by Professor Mary Ziegler.

今晚加入我的是瑪麗-齊格勒教授。

She's a legal historian and a professor of law at Florida State University professor.

她是一位法律史學家，也是佛羅里達州立大學教授的法學教授。

It's good to have you back on the day this week.

很高興你這周又回到了日子裡。

President Trump.

特朗普總統。

He could be impeached again.

他可能會再次被彈劾。

Or he could be on his way out, thanks to his vice president and the 25th Amendment.

或者，他可能會在他的出路， 由於他的副總統和第25修正案。

What do you say?

你說什麼？

It's gonna be impeachment, isn't it?

這將是彈劾，是不是？

Yeah, I think impeachment is much more likely.

是啊，我覺得彈劾的可能性更大。

Vice President Pence's made pretty clear that he doesn't want to invoke the 25th Amendment, and I think there's there's been a kind of balancing act here between Republicans who I think understand the threat to democracy that's an issue here and understand.

副總統彭斯很清楚地表明 他不想援引第25條修正案 我認為共和黨人之間已經達成了一種平衡 我認為他們明白民主的威脅，這也是一個問題

In some ways the Trump spent a threat to their personal safety.

在某些方面，特朗普的花費對他們的人身安全構成了威脅。

That's especially true of Pence, but who also want to retain some kind of loyalty, or a least toleration on the part of Trump's supporters.

彭斯尤其如此，但他們也希望保留特朗普支持者的某種忠誠，或者至少是容忍。

And the 25th Amendment option would put responsibility for Trump's exit squarely on pence his shoulders.

而第25修正案的方案將把特朗普退歐的責任完全推到彭斯他的肩上。

And he might not want that.

而他可能不希望這樣。

Well, I mean, why not the faster route here?

我是說，為什麼不走更快的路線？

Why not invoke the 25th Amendment and stripped Trump of his powers?

為什麼不援引第25條修正案，剝奪特朗普的權力？

Vice president Pence.

副總統彭斯。

As you said, You know he has reason enough to make this happen, doesn't he?

就像你說的，你知道他有足夠的理由讓這一切發生，不是嗎？

He certainly does.

他當然會。

I think that Vice President Pence, like many of his Republican colleagues, is positioning himself for a presidential run in 2024 assuming perhaps naively, that leaving Donald Trump in place will mean that there there will necessarily be a democracy and an election in 2024.

我認為，副總統彭斯和他的許多共和黨同事一樣，正在為2024年的總統競選定位，假設或許天真地認為，讓唐納德-特朗普留在原地就意味著2024年必然會有民主和選舉。

But making all of those assumptions, I think Pence believes it would be politically costly for Donald Trump's, um, exit to be on his hands, if you will, to be his responsibility.

但做出所有這些假設，我認為彭斯認為唐納德-特朗普的，嗯，退出的政治代價將由他來承擔，如果你願意的話，由他來負責。

And he would like as much as possible to shift the blame from the standpoint of Trump's face to people in Congress and away from the White House and from his own office.

而他希望儘可能從特朗普面子的角度將責任轉移到國會的人身上，而不是白宮和自己的辦公室。

You know, there's only about 89 days left in the Trump presidency.

要知道，特朗普的總統任期只剩下89天了。

Why is it so important for the House of Representatives to impeach Trump?

為什麼眾議院彈劾特朗普如此重要？

Well, I think part of it.

嗯，我想是一部分。

The most immediate legal effect is that if Trump is impeached and convicted in the Senate, he would no longer be able to run for any public office.

最直接的法律效果是，如果特朗普被彈劾並在參議院被定罪，他將無法再競選任何公職。

So that would automatically mean an end to his 2024 presidential aspirations, which may or may not be really.

所以，這就意味著他2024年的總統願望自動終結了，可能是真的，也可能不是真的。

But it would certainly rule that out.

但肯定會排除這種可能性。

I think there's also evidence that in other countries where there's been attempted insurrections like this, it's good for the law and for Congress and for other branches of government to send a pretty firm message that this kind of thing won't stand so that other people are not encouraged to try again, right to have another insurrection that might be more successful this time.

我認為也有證據表明，在其他國家，曾發生過類似這樣的叛亂，這對法律、國會和政府其他部門都有好處，可以發出一個非常堅定的資訊，這種事情不會成立，這樣就不會鼓勵其他人再次嘗試，也不會鼓勵他們再發生一次可能更成功的叛亂。

We're already seeing signs in the United States that there'll be more armed protests on Inauguration Day on the day that the House is going to impeach.

我們已經看到美國有跡象表明，在眾議院要彈劾的那一天，就職典禮日會有更多的武裝抗議活動。

Even on the weekend before the inauguration, so sending a message that this will no longer be tolerated certainly seems important.

即使是在就職典禮前的週末，所以發出一個不再容忍這種情況的資訊當然顯得很重要。

Yeah, that's a very good point.

是的，這是一個非常好的觀點。

You make the FBI.

你讓聯邦調查局。

You're saying that all 50 U.

你是說，所有50個美國。

S.

S.

State capitals have been put on high alert for, um, Inauguration Day for possible violence.

各州首府已經進入高度戒備狀態，嗯，就職典禮日可能發生的暴力事件。

Former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

前加州州長阿諾德-施瓦辛格。

He is a Republican.

他是個共和黨人。

He posted a video condemning Trump and those lawmakers who have enabled him what you take a listen to part of what he said.

他發佈了一段視頻，譴責特朗普和那些啟用他的立法者你聽聽他說的部分內容。

I believe, as shaken as we are, but the events of recent days, we will come out stronger because we now understand what can be lost.

我相信，儘管我們很震驚，但最近幾天發生的事件，我們會變得更強大，因為我們現在明白了什麼是可能失去的。

We need reforms, of course, so that this never ever happens again.

當然，我們需要改革，以便這種情況永遠不會再發生。

We need to hold accountable the people that brought us to this unforgivable point.

我們需要追究那些把我們帶到這個不可饒恕的地步的人的責任。

And we need to look past ourselves, our parties and disagreements and put our democracy first.

我們需要超越自己、我們的黨派和分歧，把我們的民主放在第一位。

But the democracy first, but also consequences.

但民主第一，也是後果。

How likely do you think it is that we're going to see senators expelled from Congress?

你覺得我們看到參議員被驅逐出國會的可能性有多大？

I'm thinking of Ted Cruz from Texas, and I'm thinking of Josh Holly from Missouri.

我在想德克薩斯州的特德-克魯茲，我在想密蘇里州的喬希-霍利。

That's harder to say.

這就難說了。

We certainly won't see that until the Democrats have this sort of slim 50% majority, and we might not see it than either, because if the Senate will be equally divided at that time with Kamala Harris breaking the tie.

我們肯定不會看到，直到民主黨有這種微弱的50％的多數，我們可能不會看到它比任何一個，因為如果參議院將在那個時候與卡馬拉-哈里斯打破了平局的平等分裂。

And I don't know if president by President elect Biden will want to expend his political capital getting rid of them, there are other forms of accountability that we're already seeing pop up.

我不知道候任總統拜登是否會想花費他的政治資本來擺脫他們，還有其他形式的問責制，我們已經看到出現了。

Ironically, in the American corporate world, Josh Holly has already lost a book deal.

諷刺的是，在美國企業界，喬希-霍利已經失去了一本書的合約。

A lot of corporate donors have announced that they're no longer going to donate to Hiss Senate campaigns.

很多企業捐贈者已經宣佈，他們不再為希斯參議院競選活動捐款。

Um, there are a variety of actors trying to hold holly accountable, but Holly and Cruz may well stay in the Senate, even if there are a lot of other actors in American public life trying to hold them to account.

嗯，有各種各樣的演員試圖追究霍利的責任，但霍利和克魯茲很可能會留在參議院，即使美國公共生活中有很多其他演員試圖追究他們的責任。

Yeah, that is amazing that they probably, as you say, they will keep their political careers trump being impeached again.

是啊，這是驚人的，他們可能會像你說的那樣，他們將保持他們的政治生涯特朗普再次被彈劾。

Is that enough to ensure that this attempt to override the will of the people will never happen again?

這是否足以確保這種凌駕於人民意志之上的企圖永遠不會再發生？

I mean, do you think that the guard rails of the US Constitution are they going toe hold moving forward?

我的意思是，你認為美國憲法的護欄他們會趾高氣揚地前進嗎？

Well, I think what really preserved the democracy in the United States.

我覺得真正能讓美國的民主制度得以保存的是。

And this is a lesson.

而這是一個教訓。

I think, for every country isn't really institutions.

我想，對於每個國家來說，並不是真正的體制。

You could make a pretty good argument that Congress buckled over and over again.

你可以提出一個很好的論點，國會一次又一次地扣。

I mean, people in the Republican Party put party ahead of the democracy numerous times, most notably when Trump lost the election and people deny that reality.

我的意思是，共和黨內的人無數次將黨派置於民主之上，最明顯的是當特朗普輸掉選舉時，人們否認了這個現實。

What I think saved the democracy was that a lot of relevant actors had internalized the rule of law.

我認為拯救民主的是，很多相關的行為者已經將法治內化。

And when that phone call came from President Trump to subvert the election, they refused even Republicans.

而當特朗普總統打來那個電話，要顛覆選舉時，他們連共和黨人都拒絕了。

So I think that renewing kind of civic education about those norms and reinforcing that is really important in the United States and other democracies because there's nothing I think in any institution, Um, that would prevent the end of a democracy.

是以，我認為，更新種公民教育 關於這些規範和加強，是真的很重要 在美國和其他民主國家，因為沒有什麼我認為 在任何機構，嗯，這將防止一個民主的結束。

And if it can happen in the United States, which has sort of been a model for democracies all over the world, it really can happen anywhere.

如果它能發生在美國，而美國一直是全世界民主制度的典範，那麼它真的可以發生在任何地方。

And I think that's a lesson.

我覺得這也是一個教訓。

I mean, of course, there was a sort of an effort in Germany, right to write to rush the Reichstag, so I mean there, this isn't a problem.

我的意思是，當然，在德國，有一種努力，正確的寫催促帝國議會，所以我的意思是，在那裡，這不是一個問題。

just in the United States.

只是在美國。

I think that's another important lesson that improves all of us not to wait until the crisis point to think about the places that are democracies need.

我想這又是一個重要的教訓，提高了我們大家不要等到危機點才去思考民主國家需要的地方。

Yeah, that's a very good point.

是的，這是一個非常好的觀點。

You make all around the world people thinking, If it can happen in the US, it can happen anywhere.

你讓全世界的人都在想，如果它能在美國發生，就能在任何地方發生。

Professor Mary Ziegler, legal historian and professor of law at Florida State University professor.

佛羅里達州立大學教授、法律史學家瑪麗-齊格勒教授。

As always, we appreciate your time and your insights tonight.

一如既往，我們感謝你今晚的時間和你的見解。

Thank you.

謝謝你了