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  • Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Joanna Pietrulewicz

    謄寫員:Ivana Korom 審稿人:Joanna Pietrulewicz。Joanna Pietrulewicz

  • Whitney Pennington Rodgers: Ajay Banga, thank you so much for being with us today.

    Whitney Pennington Rodgers:Ajay Banga, 謝謝你今天來參加我們的活動.

  • I feel like this conversation is especially meaningful

    我覺得這個對話特別有意義

  • as we're wading through this pandemic, it's late 2020,

    當我們涉足這個大流行病, 這是2020年底。

  • and we've seen the way that inequalities have presented themselves

    我們已經看到了不平等的表現方式。

  • throughout this year, through this crisis.

    在這一年裡,通過這場危機,

  • And since you've been at the helm of Mastercard,

    而自從你執掌萬事達卡後。

  • you have championed this idea of financial inclusion.

    你一直在倡導這種普惠金融的理念。

  • And so, could you start by telling us a little bit

    所以,你能不能先給我們講講... ...

  • about financial inclusion,

    關於普惠金融。

  • what is it

    是什麼

  • and why do you think this is something that can change people's lives?

    為什麼你認為這是一個可以改變人們生活的東西?

  • Ajay Banga: Yes, look, I think that the COVID-19 crisis

    阿杰-班加:是的,你看,我認為COVID-19危機。

  • has actually made things worse in some ways

    事實上,在某些方面已經使事情變得更糟

  • and some of the advances that were being made

    以及正在取得的一些進展。

  • over the prior decade

    過去十年

  • on fighting poverty and fighting exclusion

    消除貧窮和排斥現象

  • have probably got set back a little bit,

    可能已經得到了挫折一點點。

  • just by the nature of the manner

    本色

  • in which the virus has impacted minorities and disadvantaged people

    病毒對少數群體和弱勢人群的影響。

  • more than they have others,

    比他們有其他人更多。

  • including, by the way, minority-owned businesses,

    包括,順便說一下,少數族裔擁有的企業。

  • a number of whom have had disproportionate impact

    其中一些人產生了不成比例的影響。

  • through the crisis.

    度過危機。

  • But I guess if you pull back from the crisis,

    但我想如果你從危機中抽身出來。

  • because financial inclusion or exclusion

    因為金融包容性或排斥性

  • is an underlying social problem that dates back to well before this.

    是一個潛在的社會問題,早在這之前就已經存在了。

  • The real issue, here's the theory of the case.

    真正的問題,這裡是案例的理論。

  • Of seven billion people in the world,

    世界上70億人中。

  • close to two billion are either underbanked or unbanked in some way.

    近20億人不是銀行存款不足就是在某種程度上沒有銀行存款。

  • And what I mean by underbanked or unbanked --

    我所說的銀行存款不足或沒有銀行存款的意思是... ...

  • unbanked is obvious,

    無銀行業務是顯而易見的。

  • they don't have a relationship with a banking institution of any type.

    他們與任何類型的銀行機構都沒有關係。

  • Of any type.

    任何類型的。

  • Now, underbanked is, even if they do,

    現在,銀行不足是,即使他們。

  • they're not getting to participate in the financial mainstream

    他們沒有機會參與到金融主流中去了

  • and do things that you and I take for granted,

    做著你我習以為常的事情。

  • which means being able to access credit

    這意味著能夠獲得信貸

  • when you need it, at a reasonable price,

    當你需要時,以合理的價格。

  • being able to access insurance

    能夠獲得保險

  • of the type that's relevant to you,

    的類型,與你相關。

  • being able to do things of that nature,

    能夠做這種性質的事情。

  • save for a rainy day in the right way.

    以正確的方式未雨綢繆。

  • All that done in a form that's good for you as the consumer.

    這些都是以一種對你這個消費者有利的形式完成的。

  • That's underbanked.

    那就是銀行存款不足。

  • And so, a couple of billion people around the world,

    所以,全世界有幾十億人。

  • this is World Bank statistics,

    這是世界銀行的統計數據。

  • are basically unbanked or underbanked,

    基本上是沒有銀行賬戶或銀行賬戶不足。

  • and most of those people

    而這些人中的大多數

  • do not have a formal identity

    無名小卒

  • that they had received or got from their government

    他們從政府那裡得到或得到的

  • and therefore, there's nothing they can take and hold out

    是以,他們沒有什麼可以拿得出手的東西。

  • to show when they go to hire a car

    去租車時出示

  • or live in a hotel

    或住在旅館裡

  • or take a flight, which they don't do,

    或坐飛機,而他們並沒有這樣做。

  • to show that they exist in the system.

    以表明它們存在於系統中。

  • Their opinions don't count,

    他們的意見不算數。

  • they don't get counted in censuses very often,

    他們不被計算在人口普查非常頻繁。

  • they don't get counted for their opinion of what government should be doing,

    他們對政府應該做什麼的意見沒有被計算在內。

  • they get left out, they're locked out.

    他們被排除在外,他們被鎖在外面。

  • And the last part of that puzzle

    而最後一部分的謎題

  • is that this is too big an issue,

    是這是一個太大的問題。

  • over the years,

    多年來,。

  • for just a government to solve,

    僅僅一個政府就能解決。

  • or for just one bank to solve in a country.

    或只為一個國家的一家銀行解決。

  • It does require, kind of, a bunch of shoulders at the wheel

    它確實需要,有點,一堆肩膀的車輪。

  • to come together,

    來一起。

  • it requires partnerships across the public and the private sector,

    它需要在公共和私營部門之間建立夥伴關係。

  • but even within the private sector,

    但即使在私營部門內。

  • to get to make a real movement on this issue.

    以獲得在這個問題上做出真正的運動。

  • WPR: So if I'm understanding correctly,

    WPR。如果我的理解沒錯的話

  • it sounds like it's just an opportunity for people no matter where you are,

    聽起來,這只是一個機會,無論你在哪裡的人。

  • what your socioeconomic status is,

    你的社會經濟地位是什麼;

  • that you have access to financial services,

    你可以獲得金融服務;

  • that you are part of the system and you have a place,

    你是系統的一部分,你有一個地方。

  • a financial identity.

    一個金融身份。

  • AB: You have identity, you have a voice,

    AB:你有身份,你有聲音。

  • you have access to financial services.

    您可以獲得金融服務。

  • So financial inclusion has got so many facets,

    所以,普惠金融有這麼幾個方面。

  • but the basic facet is be counted, be included,

    但基本面是被計算、被包含。

  • be somebody, have the dignity of your identity,

    做人,要有自己身份的尊嚴。

  • and of being included.

    和被納入的。

  • That's really what financial inclusion is.

    這才是真正的普惠金融。

  • WPR: It seems like such a simple idea,

    WPR:這似乎是一個很簡單的想法。

  • that can potentially have a big impact,

    可以潛在地產生很大的影響。

  • and I know that this is something that you've implemented

    我知道這是你已經實施的東西。

  • in your work at Mastercard,

    在你在萬事達卡的工作中。

  • but also we see this in many other organizations,

    但我們在許多其他組織中也看到了這一點。

  • so talk a little bit about what does financial inclusion look like in practice

    那麼,談談普惠金融在實踐中是怎樣的?

  • for a range of different organizations

    為一系列不同組織提供服務

  • and a range of different spaces.

    和一系列不同的空間。

  • AB: First of all,

    AB:首先。

  • you're absolutely correct, there are lots of people participating

    你說的很對,有很多人参與了

  • in trying to change this.

    試圖改變這種狀況。

  • And honestly, without that, we wouldn't get anywhere.

    老實說,如果沒有這些,我們也不會有什麼進展。

  • We're doing our bit,

    我們正在做我們的一部分。

  • but what we're doing is really in partnership with others,

    但我們所做的是真正與他人合作。

  • because we're not a direct-to-consumer company.

    因為我們不是一家直接面向消費者的公司。

  • There's nothing I can do to improve your life directly

    我沒有辦法直接改善你的生活了

  • in terms of being included

    就被納入

  • because I don't open bank accounts,

    因為我不開銀行賬戶。

  • I don't give credit,

    我不給信用。

  • I don't underwrite insurance

    我不承保保險

  • and I don't have a way to provide you ways to save money

    而我卻沒有辦法提供給你省錢的方法。

  • in a mutual fund or anything.

    在一個共同基金或任何東西。

  • For me to do anything,

    對我來說,做任何事情。

  • I need to have banks,

    我需要有銀行。

  • I need to have fintechs,

    我需要有金融科技。

  • I need to have mobile phone companies,

    我需要有行動電話公司。

  • I need to have governments,

    我需要有政府。

  • I probably need to have merchants

    我可能需要有商戶

  • and that ecosystem of the coalition of the willing

    以及那個由自願者聯盟組成的生態系統

  • is kind of what you will see represented

    是一種你將看到的代表

  • when different companies talk about their role

    當不同的公司談論他們的角色時

  • in financial inclusion.

    在普惠金融方面。

  • Let me give you a couple of tangible examples.

    讓我給大家舉幾個具體的例子。

  • So if you're a farmer

    所以如果你是一個農民

  • and you've got to go to sell your produce when it's harvested,

    而你必須去賣你的產品 當它的收穫。

  • you've got to go two days' way to the nearest village market,

    你得走兩天的路去最近的村莊市場。

  • well then, everybody knows that on the way back you're carrying cash

    那麼,大家都知道,在回來的路上,你帶著現金。

  • from the produce you sold.

    從你出售的產品中。

  • That normally leads to bad outcomes.

    這通常會導致不好的結果。

  • Also, you've got to go buy fertilizer.

    還有,你得去買化肥。

  • Or you've got to go back and forth to do all this

    要不你就得來來回回地做這些事了

  • and you're really unproductive,

    而你真的是沒有生產力的。

  • or you send your spouse to do it.

    或者你派你的配偶去做。

  • All that changes if I can connect you

    如果我可以幫你聯繫上,一切都會改變

  • with a phone

    帶電話

  • into farmers, fertilizers and cooperatives,

    成農戶、肥料和合作社。

  • give you cropping information,

    給你提供裁剪資訊。

  • rainfall information,

    降雨量資訊。

  • enable you to sell your produce in a better marketplace, online,

    使您能夠在一個更好的市場,在線銷售您的產品。

  • receive the money into an account online,

    把錢收到網上的賬戶裡。

  • that is a complete game changer.

    這是一個完整的遊戲改變。

  • Something again that farmer's cooperatives,

    又是農民合作社的東西。

  • local governments,

    地方政府;

  • banks and companies like ours can help facilitate,

    銀行和我們這樣的公司可以幫助促進。

  • in Africa, we're doing it in India,

    在非洲,我們在印度做。

  • we're doing it in a bunch of countries around the world.

    我們在世界各地的很多國家都在做。

  • Again, the idea here is to take you out of the cash economy

    同樣,這裡的想法是把你從現金經濟中解放出來。

  • and give you access to an electronic economy.

    並給你提供電子經濟的機會。

  • Imagine that same farmer,

    想象一下,同樣是農民。

  • they now receive money for their produce,

    他們現在收到了他們的產品的錢。

  • a bank can look at how they spend money out of their account,

    銀行可以看看他們是如何從賬戶裡花錢的。

  • and could, using the spending and receiving of money,

    並能,利用金錢的支出和接受。

  • underwrite you much better for a crop loan

    為你核銷農作物貸款好得多。

  • than they could if they didn't know anything about you.

    比他們可以 如果他們不知道你的任何事情。

  • So the same example, another one,

    所以同樣的例子,另一個例子。

  • is for small and microbusinesses.

    是針對小微企業的。

  • Take a woman in Kenya or in India or in Mexico in a village

    在肯亞、印度或墨西哥的一個村子裡,帶一個女人去。

  • who opens a small shop outside her home

    在家門口開小店的人

  • when her husband and children are away.

    當她的丈夫和孩子不在時。

  • And it runs for a few hours in a day,

    而且一天要運行幾個小時。

  • and she stocks a little baby food, and soap and toilet paper

    她還儲備了一些嬰兒食品、肥皂和衛生紙。

  • and whatever else people buy there.

    以及人們在那裡買的其他東西。

  • Well when the company van comes,

    好吧,當公司的車來了。

  • the Nestle van, the Unilever van, the local Bimbo Bread van,

    雀巢的車,聯合利華的車,當地的Bimbo麵包車。

  • comes to sell produce to her

    來賣農產品給她

  • on a Monday or a Tuesday or a Wednesday at a certain time,

    在週一、週二或週三的某個時間;

  • she buys what she can in cash.

    她能用現金買的就買

  • Typically, she's in the cash economy, nobody's given her credit,

    一般來說,她在現金經濟時代,沒有人給她信用。

  • she runs out of cash for that produce that she's buying

    她沒錢買菜了

  • before the week is over.

    在本週結束前。

  • She's out of stock. She loses sales.

    她沒貨了。她失去了銷售。

  • Imagine if she could then be underwritten,

    試想一下,如果屆時她能被包養。

  • digitizing that supply chain,

    將該供應鏈數字化。