Now everybody sticks to the, uh to the measures that we have now.

現在大家都堅持我們現在的措施。

Then way.

然後，方式。

Think that by theme, Middle of February, then you know there really is the prospect off beginning the relax ation of some of these measures.

認為，通過主題，2月中旬，那麼你知道真的是有前景關閉開始放鬆ation的一些措施。

It seems so easy.

看起來很容易。

Just follow the rules.

只要遵守規則就可以了。

But what we're realizing is it's far easier for some than for others.

但我們意識到的是，對一些人來說，這遠比對另一些人容易。

If you're living comfortably working at home and you have a cough, there's every chance you'll go and get it tested.

如果你在家裡舒舒服服的工作生活，而你又有咳嗽，那麼你完全有可能會去做檢查。

Even just this a precaution.

哪怕只是這一個預防措施。

But supposing, if you have no job security and cash is very tight, what are the chances you ignore that same cough?

但假設，如果你沒有工作保障，資金非常緊張，你忽略同樣咳嗽的機會有多大？

Not everyone is able to work from home.

不是每個人都能在家工作。

Not everyone is able to take time off work for self isolation, saving lives.

並不是每個人都能請假進行自我隔離，挽救生命。

Restarting the economy.

重新啟動經濟；

Also nous estate addressing these inequalities.

同時，我們也要解決這些不平等現象。

Andi.

安迪

Given the varying the new variant, this might be the difference between a lock down.

鑑於不同的新的變奏，這可能是鎖定的區別。

Bringing are down below one or not, while headlines were focusing on the increased transmission potential of the new variant coronavirus.

帶來的都是低於一個或不，而頭條新聞集中在新變種冠狀病毒的傳播潛力增加。

Ah, Public Health England report was quietly released Ah, week before Christmas, Um pointed toe other factors that drive transmission at the heart of it was inequality.

啊，英格蘭公共衛生報告悄然發佈啊，在聖誕節前一週，嗯指出趾其他因素，推動傳輸的核心是不平等。

It's highlighted factors including insecure public facing jobs without social distancing, overcrowded housing, chronic stress and pre existing health conditions a Z all contributing to an increased risk from covert.

它強調的因素包括沒有社會距離的不安全的面向公眾的工作，過度擁擠的住房，長期的壓力和預先存在的健康狀況a Z都會導致隱蔽的風險增加。

The country applauded our NHS heroes last spring, but there are so many other essential workers keeping the country ticking through locked down in factories and food production, for example their essential.

去年春天，國家為我們的NHS英雄鼓掌，但還有許多其他重要的工人通過鎖定在工廠和食品生產中保持國家運轉，例如他們的基本。

But are they treated as such really precarious, essential workers who we have not thought about their position?

但是，他們被當作這樣真正不穩定的、必不可少的勞動者，我們沒有想過他們的地位嗎？

It all locked down widens inequality in two ways.

這一切的鎖定從兩個方面擴大了不平等。

It's widens the difference in in how likely you are to be at risk on git like widens the inequality in whether you're actually ill.

它擴大了你在git上的風險可能性的差異，就像擴大了你是否真的生病的不平等。

In Toronto, they've looked at infection levels among essential workers, such as people working in public facing jobs such as shops, deliveries and also manufacturing and agriculture.

在多倫多，他們已經研究了基本工人的感染水準，比如在商店、送貨、製造業和農業等面向公眾的工作中工作的人。

The Blue Line shows those infection rates amongst the communities with the fewest essential workers.

藍線顯示的是基本工人最少的社區的感染率。

The Orange Line covers the middle third of communities on the Red line shows how infection is significantly higher among those communities with the highest number of thes workers.

橙線覆蓋了紅線上三分之一的社區，顯示了在那些工人數量最多的社區中，感染率是如何顯著提高的。

Should we just accept that transmission will always be higher in some communities than in others.

我們是否應該接受，有些社區的傳播率總是比其他社區高。

On that lock down, maybe increasing that gap.

在這個鎖定上，也許會增加這個差距。

It's just what's happening is that they're reducing contact rate mawr amongst those folks that were already at lower risk and reducing it less amongst those folks that were at higher risk.

這只是發生了什麼事，他們正在減少接觸率mawr那些鄉親之間，已經在低風險和減少它少那些鄉親之間，在高風險。

And thus we see those disparities just worsening.

是以，我們看到這些差距只會越來越大。

And indeed, in the sense of actually reducing overall transmission, they can't work in the way that they've been designed.

而事實上，從實際減少整體傳輸的意義上來說，它們無法按照設計的方式工作。

There are over eight million essential workers in the UK who simply cannot work from home.

英國有超過800萬的必要工作者根本無法在家工作。

Blunt tools such as locked down with its associated trade offs can only work effectively if it stops transmission in the group's transmitting.

鈍器，如鎖定下來的相關交易，只有在群體的傳輸中停止傳輸，才能有效地發揮作用。

We drove covert infection rates right down last summer, but what experts have said is where the embers remained, hottest was in the deprived communities.

去年夏天我們把隱蔽的感染率降了下來，但專家們說的是火種還在的地方，最熱的是在貧困社區。

So what do you do about it?

那麼，你該怎麼做呢？

I think we need to think about support proportionate to the risks off exposure, often individuals we need to think about additional layer off support for this advantage communities income relief.

我認為，我們需要考慮支持相稱的風險，往往個人，我們需要考慮額外的一層關閉支持這種優勢社區收入救濟。

At the moment, only one third of salary is recovered.

目前，只收回了三分之一的工資。

When you're off sick on, do we need to think about how we can incentivize sectors.

當你休病假的時候，我們是否需要考慮如何激勵部門。

We need to think about whether to provide accommodation for people living in overcrowded housing or people don't who don't have a house to self isolate.

我們需要思考的是，是為住在擁擠住房的人提供住宿，還是為沒有房子自我隔離的人提供住宿。

UK has one of the lowest proportions of pay covered by statutory sick pay in Europe.

英國是歐洲法定病假工資覆蓋比例最低的國家之一。

A million's don't even qualify.

一百萬的都不符合條件。

I think when we get into it, we understand that you know the sort of systematic and structural barriers that put folks at risk are really at the heart of effective interventions rather than this idea of blaming folks.

我認為，當我們進入它，我們明白，你知道那種系統性的和結構性的障礙，使人們在風險是真正在有效的干預措施的核心，而不是這個想法責怪的人。

But but indeed, it's natural for us.

但但的確，這對我們來說是自然的。

It's a society is just to blame individuals, I think, rather than tackling difficult and challenges issues.

我認為，這是一個社會只是指責個人，而不是解決困難和挑戰問題。

Understandably, our politicians have spent a lot of time trying to make people doas, they've been told, but some are asking whether there has been enough effort thrown it people in those areas where, without help the virus is likely to thrive.

可以理解的是，我們的政治家們已經花了很多時間試圖讓人們doas，他們已經被告知，但有些人正在問是否有足夠的努力扔它的人在這些地區，沒有幫助病毒很可能茁壯成長。

Deb Cohen, with that report, We invited the government on the program.

黛博-科恩，有了這份報告，我們邀請政府參加了這個項目。

They declined, a spokesman told us.

他們拒絕了，一位發言人告訴我們。

They're doing everything they can to ensure their coronavirus support reaches those who need it most.

他們正在盡一切努力確保他們的冠狀病毒支持到達最需要的人手中。

Joining me now is Rose Galahad, the professional lead for infection prevention and control at the Royal College of Nursing on Debate.

現在和我一起的是Rose Galahad，英國皇家護理學院感染預防和控制的專業負責人，關於辯論。

A hack a member of the independent Sage, formerly acting director of the Runnymede Trust on Good Evening to You both rose.

黑客一名獨立賢者成員，原潤欣信託代理董事在《晚安給你》上都起。

If I could just start with you Thio paint the picture for us, if you can, of what you're hearing.

如果我能從你開始，Thio... ...給我們描繪一下，如果可以的話，你聽到的是什麼？

It's like currently on your wards.

就像目前在你的病房裡。

So what our members are telling us is that the pressure is absolutely relentless.

所以，我們的成員告訴我們的是，壓力絕對是無情的。

Our nurses and midwives, working in a way care, settings and care homes, have been working to support this pandemic now since March.

我們的護士和助產士，以護理、設置和護理院的方式工作，自3月以來，現在一直在努力支持這種流行病。

Andi, working in a pandemic is very much like running a marathon.

安迪，在流行病中工作就像跑馬拉松一樣。

You need pace.

你需要步伐。

You need rest if you're going to reach the end.

如果你要到達終點，你需要休息。

But our members are sprinting and they are absolutely exhausted on it's a marathon in the sense that way, actually, don't know how long this could go on for me.

但我們的成員都在衝刺，他們絕對是累死在這是一場馬拉松的意義上的方式，其實，不知道這對我來說能持續多久。

Nick heard figures.

尼克聽到了數字。

I don't know if you heard that earlier that the laws will be in place until the end of March, which sounds like the beginning of April.

不知道你早些時候有沒有聽說，法律將在3月底之前實施，聽起來像是4月初。

We've been told mid February.

我們被告知，二月中旬。

Um, I wonder Zubaydah how you managed to get people to follow a set of rules when there are such severe economic consequences.

嗯，我想知道祖貝達你是怎麼做到讓人們遵守一套規則的，當有如此嚴重的經濟後果。

For some who are trying to do so well, that's absolutely the key point.

對於一些努力做好的人來說，這絕對是關鍵點。

Emily, which is we have been saying from the very beginning.

艾米麗，這也是我們從一開始就說的。

Independent sage have been saying that in order to get people thio idea to rules, we need to help support them.

獨立聖人一直在說，要想讓人們的觀念向規則靠攏，我們就要幫助支持他們。

As you rightly pointed out at the beginning, This isn't just about will.

正如你在一開始就正確地指出，這不僅僅是意志的問題。

This is about being able too strict to stick to the to being able to a dear to the rules on.

這就是關於能夠太嚴格的堅持到能夠一個親愛的規則上。

We know, for instance, right from the beginning that black and ethnic minority people, people in deprived areas, were much more at risk.

例如，我們從一開始就知道，黑人和少數族裔的人、貧困地區的人面臨的風險更大。

For Kobe, 19, much more at risk was off severe illness on death because off the types of jobs that they were in because of the types of accommodation that they live in, because they're much more likely to live in overcrowded housing and so on.

對於19歲的科比來說，更多的風險是關乎死亡的嚴重疾病，因為關乎他們所從事的工作類型，因為他們所居住的住宿類型，因為他們更有可能住在過度擁擠的住房裡等等。

Now all of these things matter.

現在這些事情都很重要。

But what also matters in this pandemic is stopping transmission on the way we stop transmission is to get people's self isolated on.

但在這場流行病中，還重要的是阻止傳播的方式，我們阻止傳播的方式是讓人們的自我隔離上。

We've known from the beginning and throughout this pandemic that people in deprived areas that people in low paid jobs that black and ethnic minority people who are disproportionately in low paid jobs and insecure jobs have been less likely to afford to self isolate.

我們從一開始就知道，在這一流行病的整個過程中，貧困地區的人們，從事低薪工作的黑人和少數族裔的人，他們不成比例地從事低薪工作和不穩定的工作，一直不太可能有能力進行自我隔離。

So let me ask you, what would you actually say to people in that position?

那麼我問你，你到底會對處於這種位置的人說些什麼？

Would you say you have to You have to self isolate.

你會說你必須 你必須自我隔離。

I know it's really hard, Um or would you understand that some people will have to break the rules and will have to go to work and obviously will live?

我知道這真的很難，嗯，或者你會明白，有些人將不得不打破規則，將不得不去工作，顯然將生活？

Maybe in multigenerational families where they can't make those kinds of decisions?

也許在多代同堂的家庭裡，他們無法做出這樣的決定？

I wonder what message you would give out.

我想知道你會發出什麼資訊。

They shouldn't have to make that choice.

他們不應該做出這樣的選擇。

I mean, the whole point of the government is to help us in this pandemic is to protect us.

我的意思是，政府的整個點是幫助我們 在這種流行病是保護我們。

We know that black and ethnic minority people we know people in low paid jobs.

我們知道，黑人和少數族裔的人，我們知道有人從事低薪工作。

We know deprived areas have had to make difficult choices between going toe unsafe work on putting food on the table.

我們知道，貧困地區不得不在從事不安全的工作和把食物放在餐桌上之間做出艱難的選擇。

Now the government have been in the position to help them.

現在政府已經在幫助他們。

They've helped.

他們幫了大忙。

They would say to be fair, they would say they've given what 280 billion to protect the livelihoods of people and 50 million, um, toe help those on low incomes.

他們會說，為了公平起見，他們會說他們給了什麼2800億來保障民生，還有5000萬，嗯，幫助那些低收入的人。

So I mean, the cash has been put there for this.

所以我的意思是，現金已經放在那裡了。

It's not been enough, as as it's as your colleague is rightly pointed out, that actually nearly two million people and not eligible for statutory sickness pay in this in this country because they don't earn enough.

這還不夠，因為它就像你的同事正確指出的那樣，實際上有近兩百萬人並沒有資格在這個國家享受法定的病假工資，因為他們的收入不夠。

Now, these those people are disproportionately and insecure.

現在，這些那些人不成比例，沒有安全感。

Jobs are disproportionately in zero hour contracts.

工作在零小時合同中佔比過大。

Andi, that disproportionately women on this government haven't done enough.

安迪，這個政府中的女性比例過高，做得還不夠。

They haven't given enough secretary sickness pay.

他們沒有給足夠的祕書病假工資。

They've made the eligibility criteria very high on we know from the Liverpool Mass testing Dan card.

他們把資格標準定得很高，我們從利物浦質檢丹卡就知道。

And the MP spoke about this, that in the Liverpool Mass testing pilot, only 4% of people in poorer areas came forward for the testing because they were too afraid of getting the result on that speakers they couldn't afford to self isolate.

而議員也談到了這一點，在利物浦的大規模測試試點中，只有4%的貧困地區的人主動來參加測試，因為他們太害怕得到那個揚聲器的結果，他們沒有能力自我隔離。

So it matters.

所以這很重要。

Rose, let me turn to you because locked down is essentially a holding pattern for all of us.

玫瑰，讓我轉向你，因為鎖定下來的基本上是我們大家的一種持有模式。

Until we vaccinate everyone from what you've seen on on the front line.

直到我們給每個人接種疫苗 從你在前線看到的。

Is the NHS being used efficiently for that.

國家醫療服務體系是否被有效利用，以。

Are you happy with the logistical process that's going on there?

你對那裡的後勤流程滿意嗎？

Well, the vaccination program is a huge logistical challenge, but the plans are there.

疫苗接種計劃是一個巨大的後勤挑戰，但計劃是存在的。

Of course, we must remember that we've only just really received the Oxford vaccine, so it's early days now.

當然，我們必須記住，我們才剛剛真正接受了牛津疫苗，所以現在還為時過早。

But there is a really commitment across the U.

但整個美國真的有一個承諾。

K to get this to as many people as possible.

K，讓儘可能多的人知道這一點。

And GPS nurses in hospitals and other health care workers are all part off that we also know that there are many non healthcare workers that have signed up, such as volunteers through ST John's ambulance toe also help this effort.

和GPS護士在醫院和其他衛生保健工作者都是部分關閉，我們也知道，有許多非衛生保健工作者，已經簽署了，如志願者通過ST約翰的救護車腳趾也幫助這項工作。

But I would just also like to make the point that if this vaccination program is going to be successful, we do need to protect the vaccinators as well.

但我還想說的是，如果這個疫苗接種計劃要成功，我們確實也需要保護接種者。

So as we have high rates of sickness and absence in the NHS and in the independent sector and care homes, what we can't have is our vaccinators off sick because they are self isolating or have co vid themselves.

是以，由於我們在NHS和獨立部門和護理院中的病假率很高，我們不能讓我們的疫苗接種者因為自我隔離或自我錄像而生病。

It gets Dharma raised the point today that you know, if we are throwing everything at this which understandably we are, then we should probably be doing this round the clock, shouldn't we?

今天達摩提出了一個觀點，你知道，如果我們把所有的東西都扔在這上面，這是可以理解的，那麼我們也許應該全天候地做這件事，不是嗎？

I mean, this should be a sort of a military strategy of getting every volunteer that's offered their name should be, you know, called up within 24 hours.

我的意思是，這應該是一種軍事戰略 讓每一個志願者提供他們的名字 應該是，你知道，叫了24小時內。

There are some people that you hear from who offer their services and have heard nothing for three weeks.

有一些人，你聽到他們提供服務，三個星期都沒有消息。

I wonder if you think it should have that sense now off.

不知道你覺得現在關應該有這個意義嗎？

If we're all staying at home for the most part, then then why aren't then?

如果我們大部分時間都呆在家裡，那麼，那麼為什麼不呆在家裡呢？

Are we throwing everything at it 24 hours a day, seven days a week now?

難道我們現在一週七天，一天24小時，什麼都往它身上扔嗎？

So it's very much being approached like a military operation, and the military are supporting testing.

所以很像軍事行動一樣，軍方也在支持測試。

Aziz, You know, not everyone would want to accept an appointment 24 hours a day, and some people simply could not get to appointments 24 hours a day.

阿齊茲，你知道，不是每個人都願意24小時接受預約的，有些人根本無法24小時赴約。

But certainly extended hours of flexibility is absolutely crucial to its success.

但當然，延長彈性工作時間是其成功的絕對關鍵。

Zubaydah, Do you think that the way we're prioritizing is right at the moment?

祖拜達，你認為我們現在的優先級排序方式是正確的嗎？

Clearly, it's the vulnerable age demographics that are receiving the jab first.

很明顯，首先受到刺殺的是弱勢年齡段的人群。

Would you change that order?

你會改變這個順序嗎？

Would you do it in socioeconomic or ethnic demographics?

你會在社會經濟或民族人口統計學上做文章嗎？

Thio get priority access.

亥得到優先訪問權。

Well, I mean, would you mind?

好吧，我是說，你介意嗎？

First of all, can I just say one thing, which is where?

首先，我能不能說一句，這是哪裡？

Focusing only on vaccination and only on lock down.

只注重疫苗接種，只注重鎖定。

Justus, the prime minister has and independent sage would argue and have argued consistently that those men must not be the only two things.

賈斯德斯，首相有和獨立的聖人會爭論，並且一直爭論，這些人一定不是唯一的兩件事。

They're not the only two things out of this pandemic.

他們並不是這場大疫中唯一的兩件事。

What we also need to do is improve the contact tracing and the support for self isolation Now, in terms of priority for vaccination.

我們還需要做的是完善接觸者追蹤和自我隔離的支持 現在，在疫苗接種的優先級方面。

That's a really difficult question, because we know that that depends on multiple factors in multiple risk factors.

這是一個非常困難的問題，因為我們知道，這取決於多種風險因素中的多種因素。

So the reason over eight year olds, for instance, are being prioritized for the vaccination is because age is a significant predictor off risk in covert 19.

所以，比如說，8歲以上的孩子被優先接種疫苗的原因，是因為年齡是一個重要的預測因素關風險的隱蔽19。

Now, with ethnic minorities, it's much more difficult because there is no one gene for being black.

現在，對於少數民族來說，這就更難了，因為沒有一種基因可以成為黑人。

There is no one gene for being Asian, and it's not that one gene that the genetics that is making black and ethnic minority groups, or even people in deprived groups, you know it's those aren't the situations.

作為亞洲人，沒有一個基因，也不是那一個基因，遺傳學讓黑人和少數族裔群體，甚至是貧困群體的人，你知道是那些不是情況。

Those are the characteristics that are making them vulnerable.

這些都是使他們變得脆弱的特徵。

So of course it needs much more care.

所以當然需要更多的照顧。

What I would say is if the government focused on the fine test tracing, isolate and support.

我想說的是，如果政府專注於精細的測試追蹤、隔離和支持。

And it's the isolation and support the supported isolation that matters the most.

而最重要的是隔離和支持支持的隔離。

Then that is also going to get us out of this pandemic because that will suppress the virus.

那麼這也是讓我們擺脫這場大流行，因為這樣可以抑制病毒。

And it will keep the virus down.

而且可以抑制病毒。

Those they very much indeed.

那些他們非常確實。

Thank you.

謝謝你了

Thanks for joining us.

謝謝你加入我們的行列。