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  • Pat Mitchell: Your first time back on the TEDWomen stage.

    帕特·米歇爾:妳第一次回到 TEDWomen

  • Sheryl Sandberg: First time back. Nice to see everyone. It's always so nice to look out

    雪莉·桑德伯格:是的 很高興見到大家,總是很高興

  • and see so many women.

    可以見到這麼多女性聚在一起

  • It's so not my regular experience, as I know anyone else's.

    這不像是我平常會有的經驗 我想其他人也是

  • PM: So when we first started talking about, maybe the subject wouldn't be social media,

    我們第一次談話時 或許主題不算是社群媒體

  • which we assumed it would be, but that you had very much on your mind

    我們以為會是,但妳有許多其它想法

  • the missing leadership positions, particularly in the sector of technology and social media.

    失落的領導位階 特別是科技與社群媒體

  • But how did that evolve for you as a thought, and end up being the TED Talk that you gave?

    但這些是如何讓妳產生想法 最後成為妳上次在 TED 談話的主題呢?

  • SS: So I was really scared to get on this stage and talk about women,

    我本來很害怕在這裡討論女性議題

  • because I grew up in the business world, as I think so many of us did.

    因為我在商場上打滾 我想我們很多人都是如此

  • You never talk about being a woman, because someone might notice that you're a woman, right?

    妳不曾談論身為女性這件事 因為這會讓人發覺妳是一位女性

  • They might notice. Or worse, if you say "woman," people on the other end of the table

    他們可能會察覺,或者更糟 妳提到「女性」時,桌子另一頭的人

  • think you're asking for special treatment, or complaining.

    會覺得妳在要求 特別的待遇或是在抱怨

  • Or worse, about to sue them. And so I went through -- (Laughter)

    或者更糟的情況是要告發他們 所以我在我... (笑聲)

  • Right? I went through my entire business career,

    是吧?我在我整個職涯中

  • and never spoke about being a woman, never spoke about it publicly.

    從不在公開場合提及身為女性這件事

  • But I also had noticed that it wasn't working.

    但我發覺得這樣是沒有效果的

  • I came out of college over 20 years ago, and I thought

    我二十年前從大學離開就在想

  • that all of my peers were men and women, all the people above me were all men,

    我的同事有男有女 但老闆都是男的

  • but that would change,

    我以為這種狀況會改變

  • because your generation had done such an amazing job fighting for equality,

    因為妳們這一代為了平等 做了許多驚人的貢獻

  • equality was now ours for the taking. And it wasn't.

    我們得到平等待遇,但沒有改變

  • Because year after year, I was one of fewer and fewer,

    一年過了一年,我是少數中的少數

  • and now, often the only woman in a room.

    現在是辦公室裡唯一的女性

  • And I talked to a bunch of people about,

    我跟一些人提到

  • should I give a speech at TEDWomen about women, and they said, oh no, no.

    我應該在 TEDWomen 提到女性嗎? 他們都說不要不要

  • It will end your business career. You cannot be a serious business executive

    這會毀了妳的工作 妳無法同時是執行長

  • and speak about being a woman. You'll never be taken seriously again.

    又談論女性議題 這樣沒有人會再把妳當一回事

  • But fortunately, there were the few, the proud -- like you -- who told me I should give the speech,

    但幸運地,還有些人,值得驕傲的人 像是妳,告訴我應該談論這議題

  • and I asked myself the question Mark Zuckerberg might --

    而我問自己一個問題 這也是馬克·祖克柏

  • the founder of Facebook and my boss --

    臉書創辦人,我的老闆

  • asks all of us, which is, what would I do if I wasn't afraid?

    也可能會問我們的問題 那就是如果我不退縮的話會怎麼做?

  • And the answer to what would I do if I wasn't afraid is I would get on the TED stage,

    而答案是,如果我不退縮 我就會站在 TED 的講台上

  • and talk about women, and leadership. And I did, and survived. (Applause)

    談論女性議題和領導力 我做到了,而且活過來了(掌聲)

  • PM: I would say, not only survived. I'm thinking of that moment, Sheryl,

    我想說,不單只是活過來 雪莉,我想到當時

  • when you and I were standing backstage together, and you turned to me,

    我們站在後台的時候,妳轉向我

  • and you told me a story.

    跟我說了一個故事

  • And I said -- very last minute -- you know, you really should share that story.

    在最後一刻,我跟妳說 妳真的應該分享這個故事

  • SS: Oh, yeah. PM: What was that story?

    沒錯 那是什麼故事?

  • SS: Well, it's an important part of the journey. So I had -- TEDWomen --

    那是旅程中很重要的一部分 TEDWomen 一開始

  • the original one was in D.C. -- so I live here, so I had gotten on a plane the day before,

    是在華盛頓特區,我住在這裡 所以我前一天就要搭飛機過去

  • and my daughter was three, she was clinging to my leg: "Mommy, don't go."

    我3歲女兒則是纏著我的腿 說:「媽咪不要走」

  • And Pat's a friend, and so, not related to the speech I was planning on giving,

    帕特則是我的朋友 所以這跟我要演講的無關

  • which was chock full of facts and figures, and nothing personal,

    演講是關於事實和圖表 不是私人的經驗

  • I told Pat the story. I said, well, I'm having a hard day.

    我跟帕特講了這個故事 說我有個難過的一天

  • Yesterday my daughter was clinging to my leg, and "Don't go."

    昨天我女兒纏著我腿叫我別走

  • And you looked at me and said, you have to tell that story.

    而妳看著我叫我要講這段故事

  • I said, on the TED stage? Are you kidding?

    我說,在 TED 台上嗎? 妳開玩笑的吧?

  • I'm going to get on a stage and admit my daughter was clinging to my leg?

    我要站在講台上 然後承認我女兒纏著我的腿?

  • And you said yes, because if you want to talk about getting more women into leadership roles,

    妳說,對,如果妳要讓更多女性 扮演領導者的角色

  • you have to be honest about how hard it is.

    妳必須承認這是有多困難的

  • And I did. And I think that's a really important part of the journey.

    而我就真的講了這故事 那真的是旅程中很重要的一部分

  • The same thing happened when I wrote my book. I started writing the book. I wrote a first chapter,

    同樣的事在我寫書的時候又發生一次 我開始寫書,寫了第一章

  • I thought it was fabulous. It was chock-full of data and figures,

    我認為寫得很好 都是數據和圖表

  • I had three pages on matrilineal Maasai tribes, and their sociological patterns.

    我有三頁在講 母系社會的馬賽部落和其社會習性

  • My husband read it and he was like, this is like eating your Wheaties. (Laughter)

    我老公讀了之後他覺得 這像是在吃威迪(Wheaties)麥片 (笑聲)

  • No one -- and I apologize to Wheaties if there's someone -- no one, no one will read this book.

    沒有人 -- 如果這裡有吃威迪麥片的人 我先說抱歉 -- 沒有人會讀這本書的

  • And I realized through the process that I had to be more honest and more open,

    在過程中,我發現 我必須要更坦白更放得開

  • and I had to tell my stories. My stories of still not feeling as self-confident as I should,

    我必須要講我自己的故事 在很多情況下對自己不夠有自信的故事

  • in many situations. My first and failed marriage. Crying at work.

    我第一次失敗的婚姻 工作時掉眼淚

  • Felling like I didn't belong there, feeling guilty to this day.

    感覺我不屬於那裡、至今仍感到內咎

  • And part of my journey, starting on this stage, going to "Lean In," going to the foundation,

    我的旅程某部分從這個台上開始 一直到《挺身而進》出版,再到基金會

  • is all about being more open and honest about those challenges,

    全部都是更開闊 更坦然地去面對這些挑戰

  • so that other women can be more open and honest,

    所以其他女性也能 更開闊更坦然地去面對

  • and all of us can work together towards real equality.

    我們可以一起朝向真實的平等前進

  • PM: I think that one of the most striking parts about the book,

    我想書裡最令人震驚的是

  • and in my opinion, one of the reasons it's hit such a nerve and is resonating around the world,

    我認為,這本書能切中要害 在全世界引起共鳴

  • is that you are personal in the book, and that you do make it clear that,

    某個原因是妳在書裡分享私人的經驗 而且講得很清楚

  • while you've observed some things that are very important for other women to know,

    妳發現某些事 是其他女性也必須知道的

  • that you've had the same challenges that many others of us have,

    妳也和其他人面對相同的挑戰

  • as you faced the hurdles and the barriers and possibly the people who don't believe the same.

    妳面對的障礙和困難 可能其他人並不相信是一致的

  • So talk about that process: deciding you'd go public with the private part,

    跟我們談談這個過程: 妳決定公開妳私人的生活

  • and then you would also put yourself in the position of something of an expert

    讓自己成為

  • on how to resolve those challenges.

    克服挑戰的專家

  • SS: After I did the TED Talk, what happened was --

    我在 TED 演講之後,接下來

  • you know, I never really expected to write a book, I'm not an author, I'm not a writer,

    我沒有想過會去寫一本書 我並不是一位作家

  • and it was viewed a lot, and it really started impacting people's lives.

    但很多人看了這本書 也開始影響很多人的生活

  • I got this great --- one of the first letters I got was from a woman

    我覺得很棒 -- 我收到的第一封信 是來自一位女性

  • who said that she was offered a really big promotion at work, and she turned it down,

    說她的工作獲得升遷 但她拒絕了

  • and she told her best friend she turned it down, and her best friend said,

    她跟她的好朋友說她拒絕了 她好朋友說

  • you really need to watch this TED Talk.

    妳真的應該去看看這個 TED 演講

  • And so she watched this TED Talk, and she went back the next day, she took the job,

    她去看了 TED 演講 第二天回去上班,她接受了升遷

  • she went home, and she handed her husband the grocery list. (Laughter)

    她回家後 把購物清單交給她老公(笑聲)

  • And she said, I can do this.

    她說,我也可以做得到

  • And what really mattered to me -- it wasn't only women in the corporate world,

    對我真正有意義的是 它不只影響在公司中的女性

  • even though I did hear from a lot of them, and it did impact a lot of them,

    雖然回應有很多是來自商場上的女性 也確實深深影響她們

  • it was also people of all different circumstances.

    但它也影響到所有不同環境下的人

  • There was a doctor I met who was an attending physician at Johns Hopkins,

    我遇到一位在約翰·霍普金斯的主治醫師

  • and he said that until he saw my TED Talk, it never really occurred to him

    他說在他看 TED 之前 他從沒發現

  • that even though half the students in his med school classes were women,

    雖然他醫學課有一半女學生

  • they weren't speaking as much as the men as he did his rounds.

    她們卻不像其他男生踴躍發言

  • So he started paying attention, and as he waited for raised hands, he realized the men's hands were up.

    之後他開始留意,等學生舉手 結果他發現舉手的確實都是男生

  • So he started encouraging the women to raise their hands more,

    所以他開始鼓勵女生舉手

  • and it still didn't work.

    但沒有什麼效果

  • So he told everyone, no more hand raising, I'm cold-calling.

    他就告訴大家 不用舉手了,用叫名字的

  • So he could call evenly on men and women. And what he proved to himself was that

    他就男女均等的叫名 結果他發現

  • the women knew the answers just as well or better,

    女生回答的跟男生一樣好,或更好

  • and he was able to go back to them and tell them that.

    他決定要回課堂上告訴大家這件事

  • And then there was the woman, stay-at-home mom, lives in a really difficult neighborhood,

    還有一位家庭主婦 住在非常糟的社區

  • with not a great school, she said that TED Talk -- she's never had a corporate job,

    不是好的學區 她從沒在公司行號上班過

  • but that TED Talk inspired her to go to her school and fight for a better teacher for her child.

    但 TED 演講啟發她 讓她去學校替小孩爭取好的老師

  • And I guess it was part of was finding my own voice.

    我猜這像是找回自己的發聲權

  • And I realized that other women and men could find their voice through it,

    我發覺其他女性和男性 也能找回自己的發聲權

  • which is why I went from the talk to the book.

    這也是為什麼我從演講變成出書

  • PM: And in the book, you not only found your voice, which is clear and strong in the book,

    妳在書裡很明白的強調 妳不只是找回妳的發聲權

  • but you also share what you've learned --

    妳也分享了妳的經驗

  • the experiences of other people in the lessons.

    在這些過程中其他人的經驗

  • And that's what I'm thinking about in terms of putting yourself in a --

    這讓我想到,把妳自己放在...

  • you became a sort of expert in how you lean in.

    妳像是成為挺身而進的專家

  • So what did that feel like, and become like in your life?

    這是什麼的感覺? 對妳人生有什麼改變?

  • To launch not just a book, not just a best-selling, best-viewed talk,

    不只是出版一本最暢銷的書 或最多人瀏覽的演講

  • but a movement, where people began to literally describe their actions at work as,

    也是一個運動 讓人們開始可以說自己在職場上

  • I'm leaning in.

    我挺身而進

  • SS: I mean, I'm grateful, I'm honored, I'm happy, and it's the very beginning.

    我很感激,很榮幸,也很開心 這只是一個開始

  • So I don't know if I'm an expert, or if anyone is an expert. I certainly have done a lot of research.

    我不知道我是不是專家,或誰是專家 但我做了很多研究

  • I have read every study, I have pored over the materials,

    我研讀每一個報告 探究每一份資料

  • and the lessons are very clear. Because here's what we know:

    而我學到的是顯而易見的 因為我們知道:

  • What we know is that stereotypes are holding women back from leadership roles all over the world.

    刻版印象讓全世界的女性 難以坐上領導者的位子

  • It's so striking. "Lean In" is very global, I've been all over the world,

    這很驚人 「挺身而進」 是全球化的

  • talking about it, and -- cultures are so different.

    我在世界各地演講 各地文化差異很大

  • Even within our own country, to Japan, to Korea, to China, to Asia, Europe,

    就算在國內,在日本、韓國 中國、亞洲、歐洲

  • they're so different. Except for one thing: gender.

    文化都不一樣 但有一項例外:性別議題

  • All over the world, no matter what our cultures are,

    在這個世界上 不管我們是什麼文化

  • we think men should be strong, assertive, aggressive, have voice;

    我們都認為男性應該是強壯的 決斷的、積極的、有發言權的

  • we think women should speak when spoken to, help others.

    我們認為女性只有在被允許時才發言

  • Now we have, all over the world,

    在全世界我們都會說

  • women are called "bossy." There is a word for "bossy,"

    女性很「跋扈」 在所有言語中

  • for little girls, in every language there's one.

    都有形容小女生「跋扈」 的字眼

  • It's a word that's pretty much not used for little boys,

    這是一個幾乎不會用在小男生身上的字眼

  • because if a little boy leads, there's no negative word for it,

    因為小男生位居領導時 沒有負面的意義

  • it's expected. But if a little girl leads, she's bossy.

    那是預期中的 但小女生位居領導時,她就是跋扈

  • Now I know there aren't a lot of men here, but bear with me.

    我知道現場沒有太多男性 不過還是先忍耐一下

  • If you're a man, you'll have to represent your gender.

    如果你是男性 就請你代表全體的男生

  • Please raise your hand if you've been told you're too aggressive at work.

    如果你在工作上被說過太積極的,請舉手

  • (Laughter) There's always a few, it runs about five percent. Okay, get ready, gentlemen.

    (笑聲) 總是會有一些的,大約是 5% 好,男士們請準備好

  • If you're a woman, please raise your hand if you've ever been told you're too aggressive at work.

    女士們,如果妳在工作上 被說過太積極的,請舉手

  • (Laughter) That is what audiences have said in every country in the world,

    (笑聲) 這就是每個國家都有的現象

  • and it's deeply supported by the data.

    而且數據可以有效證明

  • Now, do we think women are more aggressive than men? Of course not.

    我們真的認為女性比男性更積極? 當然不是

  • It's just that we judge them through a different lens,

    這只是我們對女性用不同的標準

  • and a lot of the character traits that you must exhibit to perform at work, to get results, to lead,

    在工作上表現突出,領導他人的人

  • are ones that we think, in a man, he's a boss,

    是男性,我們認為他是老闆

  • and in a woman, she's bossy.

    是女性,我們認為她很跋扈

  • And the good news about this is that we can change this by acknowledging it.

    好消息是,我們可以 因為認知這件事而改變它

  • One of the happiest moments I had in this whole journey is,

    在整個旅程中,我最開心的事是

  • after the book came out, I stood on a stage with John Chambers, the CEO of Cisco.

    在書出版之後,我和思科 (Cisco) 的執行長 約翰·錢伯斯 (Chambers) 一同站在台上

  • He read the book. He stood on a stage with me, he invited me in front of his whole management team,

    他看了這本書,他邀請我與他同台 站在他經營團隊的前面

  • men and women, and he said, I thought we were good at this. I thought I was good at this.

    有男有女,他說,我以為 我們在這方面做得很好了

  • And then I read this book, and I realized that we -- my company --

    但我看了妳的書之後 我才發覺我們 -- 整個公司 --

  • we have called all of our senior women too aggressive,

    會覺得資深女性員工太過積極

  • and I'm standing on this stage, and I'm sorry.

    而我現在站在這台上要說,我很抱歉

  • And I want you to know we're never going to do it again.

    我要妳們知道 我們再也不會這樣認為了

  • PM: Can we send that to a lot of other people that we know? (Applause)

    我們可以把這件事 告訴我們認識的每個人吧?(掌聲)

  • SS: And so John is doing that because he believes it's good for his company,

    約翰這樣做是因為 他相信這對他公司是件好事

  • and so this kind of acknowledgement of these biases can change it.

    所以認知到有這樣的偏差 是可以改變現況的

  • And so next time you all see someone call a little girl "bossy,"

    所以下次你們看到有人 稱小女生 「跋扈」 時

  • you walk right up to that person, big smile, and you say,

    你要微笑地走向那個人,跟他說

  • "That little girl's not bossy. That little girl has executive leadership skills." (Laughter)

    「那個女生不是跋扈 她是有領導才能的。」(笑聲)

  • PM: I know that's what you're telling your daughter. SS: Absolutely.

    我知道妳是這樣教導妳女兒的 當然

  • PM: And you did focus in the book -- and the reason, as you said, in writing it,

    妳也在書中強調這點 而妳提到原因是

  • was to create a dialogue about this.

    妳想要引發這個議題的對話

  • I mean, let's just put it out there, face the fact that women are --

    我是說,先把這個放一邊 正視關於女性

  • in a time when we have more open doors, and more opportunities --

    -- 我們有愈來愈多的管道和機會 --

  • are still not getting to the leadership positions.

    但仍然很難達到領導的位階

  • So in the months that have come since the book,

    所以這本書發表後的幾個月中

  • in which "Lean In" focused on that and said,

    《挺身而進》 著重的部分

  • here are some of the challenges that remain, and many of them we have to own within ourselves

    仍舊存在很多挑戰 很多是我們必須承認

  • and look at ourselves. What has changed?

    必須檢視的,這些改變了嗎?

  • Have you seen changes?

    妳有見到任何改變嗎?

  • SS: Well, there's certainly more dialogue, which is great.

    已經開啟了很多對話,這是很好的

  • But what really matters to me, and I think all of us, is action.

    但真正重要的是,我認為 我們要有所行動

  • So everywhere I go, CEOs, they're mostly men, say to me,

    每到一個地方,執行長告訴我 大部分都是男性

  • you're costing me so much money

    他們說妳讓我花費太多錢了

  • because all the women want to be paid as much as the men.

    因為所有女性 都想跟男性拿一樣高的薪水

  • And to them I say, I'm not sorry at all. (Laughter)

    而我回說 我一點也不覺得有什麼不對(笑聲)

  • At all. I mean, the women should be paid as much as the men.

    一點也不,女性應該 跟男性領一樣的薪水

  • Everywhere I go, women tell me they ask for raises.

    我所到之處 女性跟我說她們要求加薪

  • Everywhere I go, women say they're getting better relationships with their spouses,

    我所到之處 女性跟我說她們和另一半的關係更好了

  • asking for more help at home, asking for the promotions they should be getting at work,

    在家裡要求更多的協助 在工作上要求應得的待遇

  • and importantly, believing it themselves. Even little things.

    重要的是,她們肯相信 即使只是小小的事情

  • One of the governors of one of the states told me that he didn't realize that more women were, in fact,

    某一位政府官員跟我說 他沒有查覺到現實上

  • literally sitting on the side of the room, which they are,

    很多女性都坐在房間的一角

  • and now he made a rule that all the women on his staff need to sit at the table.

    現在他訂了規則 他所屬的所有女性都要坐在會議桌旁

  • The foundation I started along with the book "Lean In"

    我跟這本書《挺身而進》發表時 同時成立的基金會

  • helps women, or men, start circles -- small groups,

    幫助了女性和男性 發起了小團體

  • it can be 10, it can be however many you want, which meet once a month.

    約十個人左右,但可以容納更多人 每個月聚會一次

  • I would have hoped that by now, we'd have about 500 circles. That would've been great.

    開始時希望到目前為止 可以達到 500 個小團體就很不錯

  • You know, 500 times roughly 10.

    你知道的, 500 乘上大約 10

  • There are over 12,000 circles in 50 countries in the world.

    但現在全世界 50 多個國家 有超過一萬兩千個小團體

  • PM: Wow, that's amazing.

    哇,這相當驚人

  • SS: And these are people who are meeting every single month.

    這些人每個月聚一次會

  • I met one of them, I was in Beijing.

    我在北京時遇到其中一個小團體

  • A group of women, they're all about 29 or 30, they started the first Lean In circle in Beijing,

    女性的團體,她們全部大約是 29、 30 歲 她們是在北京第一個「挺進」 小團體

  • several of them grew up in very poor, rural China.

    其中有些人 是在很貧窮的中國鄉下長大的

  • These women are 29, they are told by their society that they are "left over,"

    她們 29 歲 被社會視為是 「過剩的」

  • because they are not yet married,

    因為她們還沒有結婚

  • and the process of coming together once a month at a meeting

    每個月一次聚會的過程

  • is helping them define who they are for themselves.

    幫助她們找到自己是誰

  • What they want in their careers. The kind of partners they want, if at all.

    在工作上希望得到什麼 選擇什麼樣的伴侶

  • I looked at them, we went around and introduced ourselves,

    我看著她們 逐一地自我介紹

  • and they all said their names and where they're from,

    她們說出自己的姓名 說自己來自哪裡

  • and I said, I'm Sheryl Sandberg, and this was my dream.

    我說,我是雪莉·桑德伯格 這是我的夢想

  • And I kind of just started crying.

    我開始有點想掉眼淚

  • Right, which, I admit, I do. Right? I've talked about it before.

    對,我承認我是 先前我已經談過了

  • But the fact that a woman so far away out in the world, who grew up in a rural village,

    但事實上,在世界某個角落的一位女性 在偏遠的村落長大

  • who's being told to marry someone she doesn't want to marry,

    她被要求嫁給她不想嫁的人

  • can now go meet once a month with a group of people and refuse that,

    現在卻可以每個月和團體聚一次 而且拒絕妥協

  • and find life on her own terms.

    並找到她自己生命的定義

  • That's the kind of change we have to hope for.

    這就是我們希望帶來的改變

  • PM: Have you been surprised by the global nature of the message?

    妳有被這些來自世界各地的訊息 震驚到嗎?

  • Because I think when the book first came out, many people thought,

    因為我認為當這本書剛上市時 很多人覺得

  • well, this is a really important handbook for young women on their way up.

    這對年輕女性提升自我 是非常重要的參考書

  • They need to look at this, anticipate the barriers, and recognize them,

    她們應該要讀這本書 遇期會有阻礙,然後面對它

  • put them out in the open, have the dialogue about it,

    把它公諸於世 提出相關的對話

  • but that it's really for women who are that. Doing that. Pursuing the corporate world.

    這真的是給那些女性 想做到在業界有所追求的女性

  • And yet the book is being read, as you say, in rural and developing countries.

    像妳說的,這本書 在農村裡和發展中國家有人閱讀

  • What part of that has surprised you, and perhaps led to a new perspective on your part?

    有哪一部分讓妳感到震驚? 或是讓妳有新的看法?

  • SS: The book is about self-confidence, and about equality.

    這本書是關於自信和平等

  • And it turns out, everywhere in the world, women need more self-confidence,

    這顯示在世界任何角落 女性都需要更有自信

  • because the world tells us we're not equal to men.

    因為這世界告訴我們 女性跟男性是不平等的

  • Everywhere in the world, we live in a world where the men get "and,"

    世界上任何角落 我們身在男人得到這個「和」那個

  • and women get "or."

    而女人只有這個「或」那個 的世界

  • I've never met a man who's been asked how he does it all. (Laughter)

    我沒有遇過任何一名男性被問到 你是怎麼辦到的 (笑聲)