you are in government.

You can't when you are in opposition.

Getting into government has to be the first and sole purpose

of any political party.

I was there in the 1980s when the hard left held a dominant

position in the Labour party.

When Labour had 18, 19 years of continuous opposition.

And I learned the hard way really,

that extreme left politics just didn't connect to the voters.

But I was also there in 1997 and through the years

of the Blair-Brown governments.

When I saw what impact one could have when we

controlled the levers of power.

I am virtually the last Jewish woman Labour MPs left standing.

If we don't learn the lessons of why we have

lost the 2019 election.

If we allow the heir to Corbyn to be Rebecca Long-Bailey...

Did you stand up at any point, and call it out?

I did, but was that enough?

No.

It wasn't.

The idea that we will ever get a Labour government,

certainly in my lifetime, will disappear.

I mean, if I had a majority of 80 Margaret, just think...

...even just one thing, you'd be like giddy.

Like a child in a sweet shop.

The last four years, we have to be honest with people,

it's been a fucking disaster for the Labour party.

The last thing I want is more, more Corbyn.

You said last time you wanted to win, didn't you?

I've known Corbyn since '82.

If there's one thing he really believes in,

it's all that massive world view, which

is hostile to Nato, hostile to the States,

leads to the anti-Semitism.

Rebecca.

We're going to take .... once Adrian's finished.

I didn't break rank and tell people

what's going on in the shadow cabinet,

on this or anything else, because I

don't think you should.

I consider my position in the Labour party,

over the last few years, to be honest...

I put myself forward, for frankly,

the worst job in the world, which is being leader

of the Labour party when we're in opposition.

For me, I'm going for Jess Phillips.

When I've seen the others against her,

a lot of sort of traditional politicians.

We need someone who can stand opposite Boris Johnson,

and wear his government in his face.

The Labour leadership race is narrowing from 5 to 4.

This time, that person isn't me.

Oh.

So, Jess was due to come and speak at the event.

Yeah.

But she's gone back to Birmingham, so she can't.

Yeah.

We've sent her some flowers.

What could have been?

Oh goodness, that is really hard.

I mean, I watched Jess's video, and it's really moving,

and I wanted to cry when I watched that for I think,

what the Labour party's lost.

But I'm a sort of, you know, I'm an old, old fighter,

that's the real truth.

So I'm going to carry on fighting.

And I just want to see what the other candidates,

there's three of them really, that I'm looking at.

Who can fill the void that Jess's departure has created.

When I've seen the others against a lot of the most

sort of traditional politicians, men in suits quite often.

He's triangulating like mad.

Somebody said to me, I don't mind

what he does as long as he wins, beats Rebecca Long-Bailey.

And I thought you know, Tony never did that.

Tony was completely straight, completely honest.

It's a different way of doing your politics.

So is Keir lying to get the job?

And will he then change?

That's what this person was saying to me

as a way of promoting Keir.

I mean that's...

so I know.

So it's sort of, in a way, you then think, um.

Right.

Who's not got their seat belt on?

Those people who chose to join Momentum,

I think probably a lot have left now,

are young idealists for whom at the time

Corbyn was a message of hope.

They are the ones who don't like the politics,

don't like the anti-Semitism, and don't

like the anti-Europeanism.

You'll start to see this in who's nominating Keir Starmer.

You know, Momentum is cracking up, it's sort of you know,

the old Trots will all go for Rebecca.

As will the out-of-date, fat bellied, beer bellied,

trade union barons.

I don't know where's Owen.

Is Owen pro-European?

Probably he is, actually.

I am cross because he is 40 minutes late.

You know, everybody's busy, and you just -

if you busy people make me busy people,

don't piss him off for being late.

Anyway, we are where we are.

Why do I talk to him?

Because Owen is a Corbyn supporter,

and also he's been a pretty consistent critic

of the Blair-Brown years, actually of Labour in power

and in government, and I want to challenge him a little bit

on that too.

You are very late.

I've been in the Labour party for a very long time.

Longer than I've been alive.

Indeed.

So I remember the 80s, which you know were very uncomfortable.

Where you used to go along to Labour party meetings

and if you dare to put up your hand on something you believed

in - all you were doing was following your values,

which may be different, there was intolerance of it.

People would shout abuse at you.

I had bricks thrown at me during discussions

on cuts in local government.

I did.

I've had death threats.

I've had it all my life, and I got it from the left then.

The Labour party then went through,

under the Blair-Brown years, which you like to dismiss.

I don't dismiss.

That's not true.

OK.

The Labour party went...

I was a Labour member under Blair and Brown.

Brilliant.

Well, I'm really pleased.

So it went through a really tolerant period,

when you could get up and you could dissent within the party.

That wasn't my experience at the time, by the way.

It was the experience for the victors, but - no,

anyone to the left...

You wouldn't have been shouted at.

Trots.

All the time.

Used a catch-all term for anyone vaguely on the left.

All the time.

OK, that was not my experience.

There was a much more open discourse.

But it's not...

because you were on the winning side.

No.

Of course you didn't get...

No, I just...

You'd won.

Your side won and the left fell ostracised and besieged.

Well, can I just say, this left-right really irritates me.

Really irritateS, it does irritate me.

Because you know, here you are...

There's a left and right flank of the Labour party.

That's just...

I mean, people on the...

Yeah, but I do not understand what it means.

Because I think your definition of left,

which is around big state, nationalisation...

Democratic.

Democratic ...

No, it was...

you're joking.

No, I'm not joking.

I've just been through reselection, Owen, OK?

Right.

In my party.

The whole triggering of that process was by the few,

to defeat the will of the many.

So all this stuff about we're fantastic, democratic.

The Labour party now is the most...

You won the selection.

...intolerant, centralised, bullying.

It's a terrible, terrible institution.

OK.

I obviously strongly disagree with that.

And I don't think democracy is bullying.

You won your selection.

It isn't democracy.

You won your selection fair and square

because the many voted for you.

But the fact I went into it in the run-up,

is completely crazy.

It distracted me from what I should

have been doing, because it was obvious we were going

to get a general election, and I should

have been out there in the community

reconnecting with my voters.

Can I ask you?

This, I think, because here we are.

We are from different wings of the Labour family,

let's just put it that way.

But it's interesting we're having

this argument, or discussion, or whatever

you want to call it, when actually,

if we're honest and humble, neither

of our brands of politics have any easy answers at the moment.

And the reason I say that is, you talk about the 90s, Blair

and Brown and so on.

A period before the financial crash.

A period of rising living standards.

There was a financial bubble at the time,

which seemed to be generating ever rising living standards.

The problem is at the moment, there is a general crisis...

Yeah.

...of social democracy, and there is nowhere either of us

can point to on a map and say, aha,

here's where my brand of politics has truly,

truly flourishing.

Because Clinton was defeated by Trump.

We're agreeing on this.

But that's why I look at this mess now.

I mean, what's the answer to that?

I don't have one.

I don't have on either.

I mean that - I agree with you about the challenge.

I think it's really tough.

I think it's really, really tough how you build

on the eternal values, which I hope you and I do agree about,

and challenges, which I think lead to massive insecurity,

so the changing world of work and artificial...

Climate crisis.

Climate crisis.

All those are really tough challenges for the left.

But that's...

And that, I would love to talk about.

That in fact, on that, that's what I'd be fascinated to hear.

Because I think even some more perceptive thinkers

on your flank of the Labour party.

Don't call me a flank.

I get...

Well I can't call you from the right,

because you get even angrier about that.

Is that wing, was politically and intellectually

exhausted in 2015.

It was.

What I would say is the challenge facing anyone

who does become leader is huge.

With a culture war which has opened up in British society,

which Brexit both kind of encouraged, but also reflected,

and has wreaked havoc in Labour's electoral coalition.

And I don't think anyone, from whatever wing of the Labour

party, has an easy answer, to how they bring younger people

from - who are economically insecure -

and have very strong progressive values,

which they think are under attack,

with older people who rightly have their triple-lock pensions

protected, home ownership's gone up,

and they feel quite socially conservative.

And how Labour wins some of those over,

and keeps their younger voters, is a real challenge.

And I think all of us be humble about discussing how