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  • When we ended last time, we were discussing

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  • Locke's idea of government by consent and the question arose,

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  • "What are the limits on government that even the agreement

    雇槍?

  • of the majority can't override?"

    上節課結束的時候 我們討論到了

  • That was the question we ended with.

    Locke關於同意產生政府的思想 也提出了這樣的問題

  • We saw in the case of property rights

    "政府的界限是什麼 即使

  • that on Locke's view a democratically elected government

    是大多數人都贊同也無法推翻?"

  • has the right to tax people.

    這就是上節課的問題

  • It has to be taxation with consent

    我們在財產權案例中看到

  • because it does involve the taking of people's property

    Locke認為 民主選舉出的政府

  • for the common good but it doesn't require the consent

    有權向人民徵稅

  • of each individual at the time the tax is enacted or collected.

    前提是徵稅必須經過公民同意

  • What it does require is a prior act of consent

    因為徵稅是用公民的錢

  • to join the society, to take on the political obligation

    來實現公眾利益 但在制定稅則和徵稅的時候

  • but once you take on that obligation, you agree to be bound by the majority.

    卻不徵求個體的同意

  • So much for taxation. But what you may ask,

    它所要求的是 事先同意進入社會

  • about the right to life? Can the government conscript people

    願意承擔政治責任

  • and send them into battle?

    但一旦你願意承擔政治責任 就意味著你同意受到大多數的限制

  • And what about the idea that we own ourselves?

    徵稅也是如此 但你可能會問

  • Isn't the idea of self-possession violated if the government can,

    那生命權呢? 政府可以徵召公民入伍

  • through coercive legislation and enforcement powers, say

    把他們送上戰場嗎?

  • "You must go risk your life to fight in Iraq."

    我們是自己的所有者 這一思想呢?

  • What would Locke say?

    我們是自己的所有者這一思想 豈不是受到了政府的侵犯

  • Does the government have the right to do that?

    如果政府可以通過強制立法和執法 對公民說

  • Yes. In fact he says in 139, he says,

    "你必須冒著生命危險去伊拉克作戰"

  • "What matters is that the political authority or the military authority

    對此Locke怎麼說呢?

  • not be arbitrary, that's what matters."

    政府有權這麼做嗎?

  • And he gives a wonderful example.

    答案是有 實際上在139頁他就說過 他說

  • He says "A sergeant, even a sergeant, let alone a general,

    "重要的是政治權力或軍事權力

  • a sergeant can command a soldier to go right up to a face of a cannon

    不是隨意的 這是關鍵"

  • where he is almost sure to die, that the sergeant can do.

    他給了一個很妙的例子

  • The general can condemn the soldier to death for deserting his post

    他說 "一名中士 不用說一名將軍 就算是一名中士

  • or for not obeying even a desperate order.

    就可以命令士兵去正面面對一門大炮

  • But with all their power over life and death, what these officers can't do

    他很可能會死 但中士能夠這麼做

  • is take a penny of that soldier's money because that has nothing to do

    將軍可以 以擅離職守或不遵守命令為由處死士兵

  • with the rightful authority,

    即使那是一條不顧士兵死活的命令

  • that would be arbitrary and it would be corrupt."

    但除了掌握生殺大權外 軍官不能做的是

  • So consent winds up being very powerful in Locke,

    拿士兵的任何一分錢 因為這和

  • not consent of the individual to the particular tax or military order,

    應有的權力無關

  • but consent to join the government and to be bound

    而且這種行為是隨意的 腐敗的"

  • by the majority in the first place.

    所以Locke所說的同意是很有份量的

  • That's the consent that matters and it matters so powerfully

    不是個體對某一稅收或軍事政策的同意

  • that even the limited government created by the fact

    而是同意加入政府以及同意被大多數

  • that we have an unalienable right to life, liberty, and property,

    所約束

  • even that limited government is only limited in the sense

    這就是起重要作用的同意 它的影響如此之大

  • that it has to govern by generally applicable laws,

    即使是在我們不可剝奪的生命權 自由權以及財產權

  • the rule of law, it can't be arbitrary. That's Locke.

    之上建立的政府

  • Well this raises a question about consent.

    即使有限政府的有限之處只是在於

  • Why is consent such a powerful moral instrument

    它只能通過一般適用的法律和法則來進行統治

  • in creating political authority and the obligation to obey?

    而不能是隨意的統治 這就是Locke的思想

  • Today we begin to investigate the question of consent

    這引出了關於同意的問題

  • by looking at a concrete case, the case of military conscription.

    為什麼同意是如此重要的道德手段

  • Now some people say if we have a fundamental right

    在建立政治權力和義務方面發揮著如此大的作用?

  • that arises from the idea that we own ourselves,

    今天我們要通過具體事例

  • it's a violation of that right for government to conscript citizens

    來探討這一問題 強制徵兵制度案例

  • to go fight in wars. Others disagree.

    一些人說如果在"我們是自己的所有者"這一思想之下

  • Others say that's a legitimate power of government,

    我們有基本的權利

  • of democratically elected governments, anyhow,

    那麼政府徵召公民入伍打仗 則違背了這一權利

  • and that we have an obligation to obey.

    另一些人不同意

  • Let's take the case of the United States fighting a war in Iraq.

    他們認為這是民主選舉產生的政府

  • News accounts tells us that the military is having great difficulty

    的合法權利 不管如何

  • meeting its recruitment targets.

    我們都有義務遵守

  • Consider three policies that the U.S. government

    以美國在伊拉克開戰為例

  • might undertake to deal with the fact

    新聞報導說軍隊在完成徵募目標上

  • that it's not achieving its recruiting targets.

    有很大困難

  • Solution number one: increase the pay and benefits

    想想美國政府

  • to attract a sufficient number of soldiers.

    為完成徵兵計劃

  • Option number two: shift to a system of military conscription,

    可能採取的三種政策

  • have a lottery, and whose ever numbers are drawn,

    解決方案一: 提高薪水和津貼

  • go to fight in Iraq.

    來吸引大量士兵

  • System number three: outsource, hire what traditionally

    解決方案二: 轉向軍事強制徵兵系統

  • have been called mercenaries, people around the world

    隨機抽取 誰的名字被抽中

  • who are qualified, able to do the work,

    誰就去打仗

  • able to fight well, and who are willing to do it

    解決方案三: 外包 僱傭傳統上被稱為

  • for the existing wage.

    僱傭兵的人 僱傭世界範圍內

  • So let's take a quick poll here.

    能夠做這份工作

  • How many favor increasing the pay?

    能夠很好地作戰 能夠為了錢

  • A huge majority.

    而打仗的人

  • How many favor going to conscription?

    咱們來做份快速調查

  • Maybe a dozen people in the room favor conscription.

    有多少人支持提高薪水?

  • What about the outsourcing solution?

    絕大多數

  • Okay, so there may be two, three dozen.

    有多少人讚成強制徵兵?

  • During the Civil War, the Union used a combination

    大約有十幾個人支持強制徵兵

  • of conscription and the market system to fill the ranks of the military

    那僱傭兵制呢?

  • to fight in the Civil War.

    大約有二三十人讚成

  • It was a system that began with conscription

    內戰時期 聯邦通過強制徵兵和市場買賣制度

  • but if you were drafted and didn't want to serve,

    來組織軍隊

  • you could hire a substitute to take your place

    參戰

  • and many people did.

    這一制度是以強制徵兵開始

  • You could pay whatever the market required

    但如果你被徵召但卻不想服兵役

  • in order to find a substitute, people ran ads in newspapers,

    你可以僱人代替你

  • in the classified ads offering 500 dollars, sometimes 1000 dollars,

    有很多人就是這麼幹的

  • for a substitute who would go fight the Civil War

    為了找到替身 你可以付出市場需要的任何價碼

  • in their place.

    人們在報紙上登廣告

  • In fact, it's reported that Andrew Carnegie

    在分類廣告中開出500美元 有時有1000美元

  • was drafted and hired a substitute to take his place

    來吸引願意替他們

  • for an amount that was a little less

    參加內戰的人

  • than the amount he spent in the year on fancy cigars.

    實際上 據說安德魯·卡耐基

  • Now I want to get your views about this Civil War system,

    也曾接到入伍命令 但他雇了一個人代替他

  • call it the hybrid system, conscription but with a buyout provision.

    價錢比他每年

  • How many think it was a just system?

    花在雪茄上的錢少點

  • How many would defend the Civil War system?

    現在我想知道你們對內戰時的這套徵兵制度的看法

  • Anybody? Anybody else?

    這套制度可以稱為是混合徵兵制度 允許徵兵和買斷

  • How many think it was unjust?

    有多少人覺得這一制度是公正的?

  • Most of you don't like the Civil War system,

    有多少人願意捍衛這一制度?

  • you think it's unjust.

    有嗎? 還有嗎?

  • Let's hear an objection. Why don't you like it?

    有多少人認為這是不公正的?

  • What's wrong with it? Yes.

    大多數人不喜歡內戰的這一制度

  • Well by paying $300 to be exempt one time around,

    認為是不公正的

  • you're really putting a price on valuing human life

    讓我們來聽聽反對意見 你為什麼不喜歡?

  • and we established earlier, that's really hard to do

    它有什麼不對嗎? 請講

  • so they're trying to accomplish something that really isn't feasible.

    一次支付300美元就可以免服兵役

  • Good. So paying someone $300 or $500 or $1,000...

    其實這就是在給生命貼上價格標籤

  • You're basically saying that's what their life is worth to you.

    我們早已明確這一點 很難用金錢來衡量生命的價值

  • That's what their life is worth, it's putting a dollar value on life.

    所以他們是在試圖完成根本就行不通的東西

  • - That's good. What's your name? - Liz.

    很好 所以花300或500美元 1000美元...

  • Liz.

    基本上你就是在說 他們的命就值這些錢

  • Well, who has an answer for Liz.

    他們的生命價值就是如此 給生命貼上價格標籤

  • You defended the Civil War system, what do you say?

    - 很好 你叫什麼? - Liz

  • If you don't like the price then you have the freedom

    Liz 不錯

  • to not be sold or hired so it's completely up to you.

    Liz提出的問題誰有答案

  • I don't think it's necessarily putting a specific price

    你為內戰時期的徵兵制度辯護 你怎麼說?

  • on you and if it's done by himself, I don't think there's anything

    如果價格不是你喜歡的 你完全有自由

  • that's really morally wrong with that.

    拒絕被賣或被僱傭 所以這完全取決於你

  • So the person who takes the $500,

    我認為沒有必要貼上特定的價格

  • let's say, he's putting his own price on his life

    但如果是本人同意 我認為在道德上

  • or on the risk of his life and he should have the freedom

    這根本沒什麼錯

  • to choose to do that.

    所以一個人接受了500美元

  • Exactly.

    比如說 他給自己的生命

  • - What's your name? - Jason.

    或所冒的生命危險開出了價錢 他應該有自由

  • Jason. Thank you. Now we need to hear

    決定該做什麼

  • from another critic of the Civil War system. Yes.

    完全正確

  • It's a kind of coercion almost, people who have lower incomes,

    - 你叫什麼? - Jason

  • for Carnegie he can totally ignore the draft, $300 is an irrelevant

    Jason 謝謝 現在我們來聽聽

  • in terms of his income but someone of a lower income,

    其他批評者的意見 請講

  • they're essentially being coerced to draft, to be drafted,

    這差不多就是對低收入人的一種強迫

  • it's probably they're not able to find a replacement.

    卡耐基可以完全忽略徵兵 300美元跟他的收入相比

  • Tell me your name.

    根本是小菜一碟 但對低收入的人來說

  • Sam.

    他們絕對是被強迫徵兵 被徵兵

  • Sam. All right so you say, Sam, that when a poor laborer

    很可能 他們就找不到替身

  • accepts $300 to fight in the Civil War, he is in effect being coerced

    告訴我你的名字

  • by that money given his economic circumstances

    我叫Sam

  • whereas Carnegie can go off, pay the money, and not serve.

    Sam 你說窮人

  • Alright. I want to hear someone who has a reply to Sam's argument,

    為了300美元走上內戰的戰場 實際上他是因為自己的經濟狀況

  • that what looks like a free exchange is actually coercive.

    被迫接受那筆錢的

  • Who has an answer to Sam? Go ahead.

    而卡耐基卻可以付錢走人 不服兵役

  • I'd actually agree with him in saying that...

    好的 我想聽聽對Sam觀點的回擊

  • You agree with Sam.

    他的觀點是 看起來是自由交換 實際是強迫的

  • I agree with him in saying that it is coercion in the sense that it robs individual of his ability to reason.

    誰有答案? 請講

  • Okay, and what's your name?

    其實我同意他說的...

  • Raul.

    你同意Sam說的

  • All right. So Raul and Sam agree that what looks

    我同意他說的 它剝奪了個人選擇的能力 在這一點上 這就是強迫

  • like a free exchange, free choice, voluntary act

    很好 你的名字?

  • actually involves coercion.

    我叫Raul

  • It's profound coercion of the worst kind

    Raul和Sam一致認為

  • because it falls so disproportionately upon one segment of the society.

    表面上看是自由交換 自由選擇 自願行為

  • Good. Alright. So Raul and Sam have made a powerful point.

    實際上卻是強迫

  • Who would like to reply?

    這是很嚴重 很糟糕的強迫

  • Who has an answer for Sam and Raul? Go ahead.

    因為它不成比例地向一部分人傾斜

  • I don't think that these drafting systems

    很好 Raul和Sam的觀點很有力

  • are really terribly different from all volunteer army

    你們要怎麼反擊呢?

  • sort of recruiting strategies.

    誰有答案? 請講

  • The whole idea of having benefits and pay for joining the army

    我不認為這些徵兵制度

  • is sort of a coercive strategy to get people to join.

    和志願兵的徵兵策略

  • It is true that military volunteers come from disproportionately

    有什麼很大的不同

  • lower economic status and also from certain regions of the country

    參軍就發放薪水和津貼

  • where you can use like patriotism to try and coerce people

    本身就是一種強制人們入伍的策略

  • to feel like it's the right thing to do to volunteer and go over to Iraq.

    的確 志願軍大多數經濟地位相對較低

  • And tell me your name.

    來自某些特定地區

  • Emily.

    在這些地區 你可以用愛國主義來激勵 強制公民

  • Alright, Emily says, and Raul you're going to have to

    使他們覺得志願參軍加入伊戰是正確的

  • reply to this so get ready.

    告訴我你的名字

  • Emily says fair enough, there is a coercive element

    我叫Emily

  • to the Civil War system when a laborer takes the place

    那麼 Emily說了她的觀點 Raul你要做出回擊

  • of Andrew Carnegie for $500. Emily concedes that but she says

    所以準備好

  • if that troubles you about the Civil War system

    Emily說得很好 內戰時期的徵兵制度存在強制因素

  • shouldn't that also trouble you about the volunteer army today?

    一名勞動者可以為了500美元

  • Before you answer, how did you vote in the first poll?

    代替安德魯·卡耐基服兵役 Emily承認這一點 但她說

  • - Did you defend the volunteer army? - I didn't vote.

    如果這讓你質疑內戰時期的徵兵制度

  • You didn't vote. By the way,

    為什麼它沒讓你對今天的志願兵制度產生質疑呢?

  • you didn't vote but did you sell your vote

    在給出答案之前 第一輪的調查中你會如何投票?

  • to the person sitting next to you? No. Alright.

    - 你支持志願徵兵嗎? - 我沒有投票

  • So what would you say to that argument.

    你沒投票 順便問一下

  • I think that the circumstances are different in that

    你沒投票 那你把票賣給

  • there was conscription in the Civil War.

    你旁邊的那個人了嗎? 沒有 好吧

  • There is no draft today and I think that volunteers

    你怎麼看那些爭論

  • for the army today have a more profound sense of patriotism

    內戰時期有強制徵兵制度

  • that is of an individual choice than those who were forced

    但那時情況是不同的

  • into the military in the Civil War.

    當今社會沒有徵兵法 我認為

  • Somehow less coerced?

    志願入伍的人有更高的愛國熱情

  • Less coerced.

    而且這是出於個人選擇 而不像內戰時期那樣

  • Even though there is still inequality in American society?

    人們是迫入伍的

  • Even though, as Emily points out, the makeup of the American military

    不那麼強制了?

  • is not reflective of the population as a whole?

    不那麼強制了

  • Let's just do an experiment here. How many here have either served

    即使當今美國社會仍存在不平等?

  • in the military or have a family member who has served in the military

    即使是如Emily指出的那樣 美國軍隊的構成

  • in this generation, not parents?

    並不能反映整個美國社會的構成?

  • Family members. In this generation.

    咱們做個試驗看看 有多少人服過兵役

  • And how many have neither served nor have any brothers or sisters who have served?

    或自己的家人 父母除外

  • Does that bear out your point Emily?

    服過兵役?

  • Yes.

    和自己同輩的家庭成員

  • Alright. Now we need to hear from... most of you defended the idea

    有多少人既沒自己服過兵役 也沒有兄弟姐妹服過兵役的?

  • of the all volunteer military overwhelmingly and yet overwhelmingly,

    這支持了你的觀點嗎 Emily?

  • people considered the Civil War system unjust.

    是的

  • Sam and Raul articulated reasons for objecting to the Civil War system,

    好的 現在我們來聽聽... 大多數人以壓倒性的優勢

  • it took place against a background of inequality

    為志願兵制度辯護 並且大多數人

  • and therefore the choices people made to buy their way in to military service

    認為內戰時期的徵兵制度是不公正的

  • were not truly free but at least partly coerced.

    Sam和Raul清晰地闡述了反對這一制度的原因

  • Then Emily extends that argument in the form of a challenge.

    這一制度是在不平等的背景下產生的

  • Alright, everyone here who voted in favor

    因此人們花錢僱人代替入伍的選擇

  • of the all volunteer army should be able... should have to explain

    並不是真正自由的選擇 至少是有部分是被強迫的

  • what's the difference in principle.

    然後Emily以挑戰的形式 擴展了這一辯論

  • Doesn't the all volunteer army simply universalize the feature

    好的 所有投票支持

  • that almost everyone found objectionable in the Civil War buyout provision?

    志願兵的都應該... 應該解釋

  • Did I state the challenge fairly Emily?

    在原則上有什麼差異

  • Yes.

    志願軍是不是簡單地將 在內戰的買斷條款中

  • Okay. So we need to hear from a defender

    幾乎每個人都是有異議的這一特徵普遍化了?

  • of the all volunteer military who can address Emily's challenge.

    我說的清楚嗎 Emily?

  • Who can do that? Go ahead.

    很清楚

  • The difference between the Civil War system and the all volunteer army system

    那麼我們需要聽聽

  • is that in the Civil War, you're being hired not by the government,

    志願軍的捍衛者怎麼說 他應該能解決Emily的挑戰

  • but by an individual and as a result, different people who get hired

    誰來? 請講

  • by different individuals get paid different amounts.

    內戰時期的徵兵制度和現在的志願兵制度 不同之處在於

  • In the case of the all volunteer army, everyone who gets hired

    內戰中 僱傭你的不是政府

  • is hired by the government and gets paid the same amount.

    而是個人 因此被僱傭的人是不同的

  • It's precisely the universalization of essentially paying your way

    得到的酬勞也是不同的

  • to the army that makes the all volunteer army just.

    在志願兵制度中 每個人都是

  • Emily?

    被政府僱傭 得到的酬勞也一樣多

  • I guess I'd frame the principle slightly differently.

    正是酬勞一致的這一點

  • On the all volunteer army, it's possible for somebody

    使志願兵制度變得公正了

  • to just step aside and not really think

    Emily呢?

  • about the war at all. It's possible to say,

    我想我得把原則稍稍地改變一下了

  • "I don't need the money, I don't need to have an opinion about this,

    在志願兵制度中 對某人來說

  • I don't need to feel obligated to take my part and defend my country".

    他可以不用擔心 完全不去想

  • With the coercive system, or sorry, with an explicit draft

    戰爭那回事 換句話說

  • then there's the threat at least that every individual

    "我不缺這點錢 我也不用為這件事費心

  • will have to make some sort of decision

    保衛國家這事與我無關"

  • regarding military conscription and perhaps in that way,

    但是強制徵兵 不好意思 如果以明文條款徵兵

  • it's more equitable.

    至少這樣就會讓每個人都

  • It's true that Andrew Carnegie might not serve in any case but in one,

    不得不對兵役制

  • he can completely step aside from it, and the other there's some level of responsibility.

    做出決定 或許這種方式

  • While you're there, Emily, so what system do you favor, conscription?

    更平等

  • I would be hard pressed to say but I think so

    誠然 可能兩種情況下卡內基都不會服兵役 但是 在志願徵兵制下

  • because it makes the whole country feel a sense of responsibility

    他可以與之毫無瓜葛 而在另外一種制度下 他多少需要擔當一定責任

  • for the conflict instead of having a war

    請問Emily 你傾向哪種制度? 強制徵兵?

  • that's maybe ideologically supported by a few but only if there's no real responsibility.

    可以這麼說吧

  • Good. Who wants to reply? Go ahead.

    因為這樣可以令每個公民在面對戰爭等問題時

  • So I was going to say that the fundamental difference

    身負使命感 而不是只被少數

  • between the all volunteer army and then the army in the Civil War

    熱血青年擁護 其他人就事不關己 高高掛起

  • is that in the all volunteer army, if you want to volunteer

    嗯 有人持反對觀點嗎? 請說

  • that comes first and then the pay

    我覺得志願徵兵和內戰時的徵兵制

  • comes after whereas in the Civil War system,

    兩者之間的本質差別在於

  • the people who are accepting the pay

    在志願徵兵制中 參軍衛國是

  • aren't necessarily doing it because they want to,

    首要目的 而報酬在後

  • they're just doing it for the money first.

    但內戰時的徵兵制恰恰相反

  • What motivation beyond the pay do you think is operating

    參軍的那些人

  • in the case of the all volunteer army?

    並不是多麼想保衛國家

  • Like patriotism for the country.

    他們的首要目的是錢

  • Patriotism. Well what about...

    那你認為在志願徵兵制中

  • And a desire to defend the country.

    人們為什麼而戰?

  • There is some motivation in pay but the fact that it's first and foremost

    愛國主義信仰

  • an all volunteer army will motivate them first I think, personally.

    愛國主義 那...

  • Do you think it's better... And tell me your name.

    還有保衛祖國

  • Jackie.

    錢確實是一個推動因素 但事實上 推動志願徵兵制的

  • Jackie do you think it's better if people serve in the military

    根本因素是愛國主義 至少 我個人這樣認為

  • out of a sense of patriotism than just for the money?

    你認為這樣更好... 告訴我你的名字

  • Yes, definitely because the people who... That was one of the main problems

    我叫Jackie

  • in the Civil War is that the people

    Jackie 你認為以愛國主義為目的參軍

  • that you're getting to go in it to go to war

    要比為錢參軍更好 是嗎?

  • aren't necessarily people who want to fight

    當然 因為那些... 這也是當時困擾內戰

  • and so they won't be as good soldiers as they will be

    的問題之一

  • had they been there because they wanted to be.

    那些被強征進軍營的士兵

  • Alright, what about Jackie's having raised the question of patriotism,

    內心並不想打仗

  • that patriotism is a better or a higher motivation

    因此相對於那些為打仗而參軍的人來說

  • than money for military service.

    他們也不會成為出色的士兵

  • Who would like to address that question? Go ahead.

    好的 現在Jackie提到了愛國主義這個問題

  • Patriotism absolutely is not necessary in order to be a good soldier

    她認為相對於金錢來說 愛國主義

  • because mercenaries can do just as good of a job

    是個更好的推動因素

  • as anyone who waves the American flag around and wants to defend

    誰有不同觀點? 請

  • what the government believes that we should do.

    優秀的士兵不必具備愛國主義情緒

  • Did you favor the outsourcing solution?

    因為僱傭兵同樣也可以成為好士兵

  • Yes sir.

    他們也能為了我們的國家

  • Alright, so let Jackie respond. What's your name?

    聽從政府派遣 激戰沙場

  • Philip.

    你贊成僱傭兵制嗎?

  • What about that Jackie? So much for patriotism.

    是的

  • If you've got someone whose heart is in it

    好 請Jackie陳述她的觀點 你叫什麼?

  • more than another person, they're going to do a better job.

    我叫Philip

  • When it comes down to the wire and there's like a situation

    他說愛國主義也就僅此而已 Jackie怎麼看?

  • in which someone has to put their life on the line,

    一個人 全心全意

  • someone who's doing it because they love this country

    就一定可以把該做的做到最好

  • will be more willing to go into danger

    在危難關頭 比如說

  • than someone who's just getting paid. They don't care.

    形勢危急 可能有人會因此犧牲

  • They've got the technical skills but they don't care what happens

    那些懷著對祖國無限熱忱的士兵

  • because they really have... they have nothing

    會比僱傭兵更自願地

  • like nothing invested in this country.

    奔赴使命 僱傭兵並不投入

  • There's another aspect though once we get on to the issue of patriotism.

    他們有作戰技巧 但他們對戰爭結果並不在意

  • If you believe patriotism, as Jackie does,

    因為他們對這個... 國家

  • should be the foremost consideration and not money,

    毫無熱忱可言

  • does that argue for or against the paid army we have now?

    談及愛國主義 就不可避免的會遇到另一個問題

  • We call it the volunteer army though if you think about it,

    正如Jackie所述 如果你認為愛國主義

  • that's a kind of misnomer. A volunteer army as we use the term,

    而不是金錢 才應該是最重要的考慮因素

  • is a paid army.

    那這個觀點是支持還是反對僱傭兵呢?

  • So what about the suggestion that patriotism should be

    仔細一想 其實我們稱之為志願徵兵

  • the primary motivation for military service not money?

    並不恰當 儘管我們稱之為志願軍

  • Does that argue in favor of the paid military

    其實也是帶薪的

  • that we have or does it argue for conscription?

    那認為愛國主義而非金錢應該成為

  • And just to sharpen that point building on Phil's case for outsourcing,

    服兵役的首要因素呢?

  • if you think that the all volunteer army, the paid army,

    這個論點是支持僱傭兵制呢

  • is best because it lets the market allocate positions

    還是支持強制徵兵?

  • according to people's preferences and willingness to serve

    咱們就剛才Philip提出的觀點作進一步討論

  • for a certain wage, doesn't the logic that takes you

    如果你認為有薪志願徵兵

  • from a system of conscription to the hybrid Civil War system

    是最好的方式 因為這樣可以讓市場介入

  • to the all volunteer army, doesn't the idea of expanding

    根據個人的選擇和意願 為一定的金錢

  • freedom of choice in the market, doesn't that lead you

    而去參軍 按照這個邏輯

  • all the way if you followed that principle consistently to a mercenary army?

    大家的選擇就會從強制徵兵轉向混合式內戰徵兵制

  • And then if you say no, Jackie says no,

    繼而轉向志願徵兵制 按照在市場引導下

  • patriotism should count for something, doesn't that argue

    的自由選擇原則

  • for going back to conscription if by patriotism,

    如果完全按照這個原則 我們最終是否都會選擇僱傭兵制?

  • you mean a sense of civic obligation?

    如果不同意 Jackie就是其中之一

  • Let's see if we can step back from the discussion

    你認為愛國主義很重要 那樣 如果說

  • that we've had and see what we've learned

    愛國主義是公民理應擔當的責任

  • about consent as it applies to market exchange.

    是不是又將大家帶回到了強制徵兵制?

  • We've really heard two arguments, two arguments against the use of markets

    咱們重新回顧一下剛才的討論

  • and exchange in the allocation of military service.

    看一下關於適應市場交易的同意

  • One was the argument raised by Sam and Raul,

    我們都知道了什麼 看到了什麼 學到了什麼

  • the argument about coercion, the objection that letting the market

    我們大體上有兩個觀點反對市場參與

  • allocate military service may be unfair

    引導分配服兵役

  • and may not even be free if there's severe inequality

    其中一個觀點由Sam和Raul提出

  • in the society so that people who buy their way into military service

    他們認為這是變相強制政策 市場干預會令

  • are doing so not because they really want to but because they have so few

    服兵役變得不公平

  • economic opportunities that that's their best choice

    甚至讓人無從選擇 因為如果社會

  • and Sam and Raul say there's an element of coercion in that.

    兩級分化嚴重 那些為了金錢服兵役的人

  • That's one argument.

    這麼做可能並非本意 而是因為他們的

  • Then there is a second objection to using the market

    經濟狀況十分糟糕 參軍是萬不得已而為

  • to allocate military service, that's the idea that military service

    因此Sam和Raul認為這是一種變相強制

  • shouldn't be treated as just another job for pay

    這是一種觀點

  • because it's bound up with patriotism and civic obligation.

    另外一種反對觀點

  • This is a different argument from the argument about

    反對市場干預徵兵制度 他們認為不能簡單地 把服兵役當做

  • unfairness and inequality and coercion,

    其它可以用薪金作為報酬的工作

  • it's an argument that suggests that maybe

    因為服兵役關係到愛國主義和公民責任

  • where civic obligations are concerned, we shouldn't allocate

    這個觀點和上一個觀點不同

  • duties and rights by the market.

    它沒有關注 不公平 不平等以及強制政策

  • Now we've identified two broad objections.

    這一觀點認為

  • What do we need to know to assess those objections?

    一旦事關公民責任 市場就不應該

  • To assess the first, the argument from

    干預公民責任與權利的分配

  • coercion, inequality, and unfairness, Sam, we need to ask

    我們剛才總結了兩個主要反對觀點

  • what inequalities in the background conditions of society undermine

    怎麼評價它們呢?

  • the freedom of choices people make to buy and sell their labor,

    第一個觀點反對的主要理由是

  • question number one.

    高壓政策 不平等 不公正 Sam 因而我們需要弄明白

  • Question number two: to assess the civic obligation patriotism.

    在一定的社會環境下 哪些不平等會損壞人們

  • Argument: we have to ask what are the obligations of citizenship?

    自由購買或出售自身勞動力的權利

  • Is military service one of them or not?

    這是一個問題

  • What obligates us as citizens?

    問題二: 評價公民責任 愛國主義

  • What is the source of political obligation?

    論點: 我們需要弄清楚公民身負哪些責任?

  • Is it consent or are there some civic obligations

    服兵役是其中之一嗎?

  • we have, even without consent, for living and sharing in a certain kind of society?

    身為公民我們有哪些責任義務?

  • We haven't answered either of those questions

    政治義務的來源是什麼?

  • but our debate today about the Civil War system

    是同意過的 亦或是有些公民義務

  • and the all volunteer army has at least raised them

    即使不同意 也要去承擔一部分的社會責任?

  • and those are questions we're going to return to in the coming weeks.

    這些問題我們還沒有搞明白

  • Today I'd like to turn our attention and get your views about an argument

    但至少我們今天關於內戰時期徵兵制

  • over the role of markets in the realm of human reproduction and procreation.

    以及志願徵兵制的討論讓我們進一步瞭解了它們

  • Now with infertility clinics, people advertise for egg donors

    這些就是我們未來幾周 將會繼續討論的問題

  • and from time to time, in the Harvard Crimson

    出售: 母親身份

  • ads appear for egg donors. Have you seen them?

    今天我將帶領大家一起探討的問題是

  • There was one that ran a few years ago

    市場在人類生育領域所扮演的角色

  • that wasn't looking for just any egg donor, it was an ad that offered

    隨著不育診所的出現 有人刊登廣告招聘卵子捐獻者

  • a large financial incentive for an egg donor

    時不時的 在"哈佛深紅報"上

  • from a woman who was intelligent, athletic, at least 5'10",

    也會登出尋找卵子捐贈者的廣告 你們看到過嗎?

  • and with at least 1400 or above on her SATs.

    幾年前曾經有這樣一則廣告

  • How much do you think the person looking for this egg donor

    這則廣告尋找的可不是普通的卵子捐獻者 廣告上說會提供

  • was willing to pay for an egg from a woman of that description?

    數額可觀的報酬給合格者

  • What would you guess? A thousand dollars?

    要求是 聰明伶俐 身體健康 身高至少1米78

  • Fifteen thousand? Ten? I'll show you the ad.

    高考測驗(美國高考滿分2400)至少1400分以上

  • Fifty thousand dollars for an egg but only a premium egg.

    你們覺得刊登廣告尋找這樣一位卵子捐獻者的人

  • What do you think about that?

    願意出多少錢來購買這位捐獻者的一個卵子?

  • Well there are also sometimes ads in the Harvard Crimson

    你們覺得會是多少? 1000美元?

  • and the other college newspapers for sperm donors.

    一萬五千美元? 一萬? 我給你們看一下廣告

  • So the market in reproductive capacities is an equal opportunity market,

    五萬美元買一個卵子 但必須是相當優質的卵子

  • well, not exactly equal opportunity, they're not offering $50,000 for a sperm

    你們作何感想?

  • but there is a company, a large commercial sperm bank

    當然 有時候在 "哈佛深紅報"和其他一些大學的校報上

  • that markets sperm, it's called California Cryobank,

    也會有廣告招募精子捐獻者

  • it's a for-profit company, it imposes exacting standards

    由此可見在生殖能力這一市場領域內 機會是均等的

  • on the sperm it recruits, and it has offices in Cambridge,

    呃 不完全是這樣的 他們不會出五萬美元買一個精子

  • between Harvard and MIT, and in Palo Alto near Stanford.

    但有一個公司 它是一個規模挺大的商業精子銀行

  • Cryobank's marketing materials play up the prestigious source of its sperm.

    主要經營精子 公司的名字叫"加利福尼亞精子冷庫"

  • Here is, from the website of Cryobank, the information.

    這是一個盈利性公司 它對精子進行了嚴格的等級劃分

  • Here they talk about the compensation

    這家公司在位於哈佛和麻省理工之間的

  • although compensation should not be the only reason

    坎布裡奇市以及斯坦福大學附近的Palo Alto市都有辦事處

  • for becoming a sperm donor, we are aware of the considerable time

    此公司宣傳時經常鼓吹的便是 其精子來源的精英標準

  • and expense involved in being a donor.

    這 是從公司網站上節選的 資料

  • So do you know what they offer? Donors will be reimbursed $75 per specimen,

    不可避免地 我們要談及報酬問題

  • up to $900 a month if you donate three times a week,

    雖然說報酬不應該是精子捐獻者的首要動機

  • and then they add "We periodically offer incentives

    但是大家也都知道 精子捐獻者需要花費

  • such as movie tickets or gift certificates for the extra time and effort

    大量的時間和人力

  • expended by participating donors."

    你們知道他們開價多少嗎? 每個樣本從75美元到900美元不等

  • It's not easy to be a sperm donor.

    900美元是要每週捐獻三次

  • They accept fewer than five percent of the donors who apply.

    在廣告中還有這樣一句 "我公司會定期向

  • Their admission criteria are more demanding than Harvard's.

    捐獻者發放獎勵性電影券或者禮品券以回報他們為此

  • The head of the sperm bank said the ideal sperm donor

    付出的時間和精力"

  • is 6 feet tall, with a college degree, brown eyes, blond hair,

    精子捐獻者可不好當

  • and dimples for the simple reason that these are the traits

    只有不到5%的申請者能通過

  • that the market has shown that customers want.

    他們的錄取標準比哈佛的還高呢

  • Quoting the head of the sperm bank, "If our customers wanted high school dropouts,

    公司老總說最標準的精子捐獻者

  • we would give them high school dropouts."

    身高約1米83 大學文憑 棕眼 金髮

  • So here are two instances, the market in eggs for donation

    還有酒窩 原因很簡單 因為這些

  • and the market in sperm, that raise a question,

    是市場上需求最旺的體態特徵

  • a question about whether eggs and sperm

    這是公司老總說的 "如果顧客想要高中輟學生

  • should or should not be bought and sold for money.

    我們就為他們提供高中輟學生"

  • As you ponder that, I want you to consider

    所以就有了兩種市場 卵子捐獻市場

  • another case involving market and in fact a contract

    和精子捐獻市場 問題來了

  • in the human reproductive capacity and this is the case

    卵子和精子是否

  • of commercial surrogate motherhood, and it's a case that wound up

    可以買賣

  • in court some years ago.

    你們考慮的同時 我希望你們同時考慮

  • It's the story of Baby M.

    另一個實例 這個實例是關於市場 準確來說

  • It began with William and Elizabeth Stern, a professional couple wanting a baby

    是有關人類生殖力的合同 是關於

  • but they couldn't have one on their own,

    有償代孕母親的事情 這件事幾年前

  • at least not without medical risk to Mrs. Stern.

    最終在法庭上得以解決

  • They went to an infertility clinic where they met Mary Beth Whitehead,

    又是一個 "誰是母親" 的故事

  • a 29-year-old mother of two, the wife of a sanitation worker.

    起因是William和Elizabeth Stern夫婦兩人想有自己的孩子

  • She had replied to an ad that The Standard had placed seeking the service

    但是他們自己卻無能為力

  • of a surrogate mother. They made a deal.

    除非Stern太太承受醫療風險接受治療

  • They signed a contract in which William Stern

    他們來到不育診所 在那遇到了Mary Beth Whitehead

  • agreed to pay Mary Beth Whitehead a $10,000 fee

    她29歲 已育兩子 丈夫是環衛工人

  • plus all expenses in exchange for which Mary Beth Whitehead

    她答覆了代孕母親的這個廣告

  • agreed to be artificially inseminated with William Stern's sperm,

    然後雙方達成了協議

  • to bear the child, and then to give the baby to the Sterns.

    並簽署一份合同 William Stern同意

  • Well, you probably know how the story unfolded.

    支付Mary Beth Whitehead一萬美元

  • Mary Beth gave birth and changed her mind,

    並承擔相應費用 同時Mary Beth Whitehead

  • she decided she wanted to keep the baby.

    接受人工受精 精子來自William Stern

  • The case wound up in court in New Jersey.

    生下這個孩子後 將其給予Stern夫婦

  • So let's take, put aside any legal questions,

    你們大概也猜到故事的結局了

  • and focus on this issue as a moral question.

    Mary Beth生完孩子後改變主意了

  • How many believe that the right thing to do in the Baby M case,

    決定要自己撫養這個孩子

  • would have been to uphold the contract, to enforce the contract?

    最終事情鬧到了新澤西州法庭

  • And how many think the right thing to do

    以此為例 暫不考慮法律疑問

  • would have been not to enforce that contract?

    從道德角度看待這個問題

  • The majority say enforce so let's now hear the reasons

    有多少人認為在這個案子裡

  • that people had, either for enforcing or refusing

    雙方應該履行合同 貫徹合同內有關條款的?

  • to enforce this contract.

    多少人認為

  • First I want to hear from someone in the majority.

    不必貫徹合同內相關條款?

  • Why do you uphold the contract? Why do you enforce it?

    大多數人認為應該貫徹 咱們聽一聽

  • Who can offer a reason? Yes. Stand up.

    正反雙方各自的

  • It's a binding contract, all the parties involved

    理由

  • knew the terms of the contract before any action was taken,

    首先請持大多數觀點這方發言

  • it's a voluntary agreement, the mother knew what she was getting into,

    你們為什麼贊成落實合同條款? 原因是什麼?

  • all four intelligent adults, regardless of formal education, whatever.

    誰來說一下? 嗯 有請

  • So it makes sense that if you know that you're getting into beforehand

    那個合同具有法律約束力 當事雙方

  • and you make a promise, you should uphold that promise in the end.

    在簽署之前都知道合同的內容

  • Okay, a deal is a deal in other words.

    並且那是自願協議 代孕母親知道自己在做什麼

  • - Exactly. - And what's your name?

    當事雙方 不論其文化背景如何 都對此一清二楚

  • Patrick.

    因此 如果是事先清楚自己將要做的是什麼

  • Is Patrick's reason the reason that most of you in the majority

    並已經做出了承諾 就不應該食言

  • favored upholding the contract? Yes? Alright, let's hear now someone

    嗯 換言之 一言既出駟馬難追

  • who would not enforce the contract.

    - 就是這樣 - 你叫什麼名字?

  • What do you say to Patrick? Why not? Yes.

    我叫Patrick

  • Well, I mean, I agree, I think contracts should be upheld

    Patrick的解釋就是大多數持同一觀點同學的

  • when all the parties know all the information but in this case,

    理由嗎? 是嗎? 好的 咱們聽聽

  • I don't think there's a way a mother, before the child exists,

    另一方的觀點

  • could actually know how she's going to feel about that child

    你們想怎麼反駁Patrick? 為什麼不必貫徹? 好的

  • so I don't think the mother actually had all the information.

    呃 誠然 在當事雙方都瞭解合約詳情的情況下

  • She didn't know the person that was going to be born

    我也同意貫徹合同內容 但是在這個案例裡面

  • and didn't know how much she would love that person so that's my argument.

    在孩子沒有出生之前 母親不能事先知道

  • So you would not, and what's your name?

    自己對這個孩子究竟會有怎樣的感情

  • Evan Wilson.

    所以我認為 母親並沒有掌握全部信息

  • Evan says he would not uphold the contract because when it was entered into

    她並不瞭解這個即將出生的孩子

  • the surrogate mother couldn't be expected to know in advance

    不知道她會多愛這個孩子 這就是我的觀點

  • how she would feel so she didn't really have the relevant information

    所以你不會履行合約 你叫什麼名字?

  • when she made that contract.

    我叫Evan Wilson

  • Who else? Who else would not uphold the contract? Yes.

    Evan說他支持不履行合約 因為當她同意

  • I also think that a contract should generally be upheld

    成為代孕母親的時候 無法預先知道

  • but I think that the child has an inalienable right to its actual mother

    自己的感受 因此當她簽訂合約的時候

  • and I think that if that mother wants it then that child

    並不算真正瞭解這些相關信息

  • should have the right to that mother.

    還有誰? 還有誰不同意履行合約? 你來說

  • You mean the biological mother not the adoptive mother?

    我也覺得在一般情況下應該履行合約

  • Right.

    但是我認為孩子的生母 對孩子有不可剝奪的權利

  • And why is that? First of all, tell me your name.

    我認為 如果母親想要孩子

  • Anna.

    孩子就應歸母親所有

  • Anna. Why is that Anna?

    你指的是親生母親而不是養母?

  • Because I think that that bond is created by nature

    是的

  • is stronger than any bond that is created by a contract.

    那為什麼呢? 先告訴我你的名字

  • Good. Thank you. Who else? Yes.

    我叫Anna

  • I disagree. I don't think that a child has an inalienable right

    Anna 那是為什麼呢 Anna?

  • to her biological mother.

    因為我認為這種與生俱來的聯繫

  • I think that adoption and surrogacy are both legitimate tradeoffs

    要比任何由合約所形成的關係更加牢固

  • and I agree with the point made that it's a voluntary agreement,

    很好 謝謝 還有誰? 你來說

  • the individual who made it, it's a voluntary agreement

    我不同意 我不認同生母對孩子

  • and you can't apply coercion to this argument.

    有不可剝奪的權利

  • You can't apply the objection from coercion to this argument?

    我認為收養和代孕都是合法的交易行為

  • Correct.

    我同意這是自願行為

  • - What's your name? - Kathleen.

    達成交易的個體都是自願的

  • Kathleen, what do you say to Evan that though there may not have been add

    你不能強迫別人接受這種觀點

  • Evan claimed that the consent was tainted not by coercion

    你不能接受反方 這是強迫接受協議的觀點?

  • but by lack of adequate information. She couldn't have known

    是的

  • the relevant information namely how she would feel about the child.

    - 你叫什麼名字? - Kathleen

  • What do you say to that?

    Kathleen 你還要對Evan補充些什麼

  • I don't think the emotional content of her feelings plays into this.

    Evan說那不是被強迫的意願

  • I think in a case of law, in the justice of this scenario,

    但是缺乏足夠的信息 她無法瞭解相關信息

  • her change of feelings are not relevant.

    換句話說 她不知道會對這孩子產生什麼樣感覺

  • If I give up my child for adoption and then I decide later on

    你對於那個要說什麼?

  • that I really want that child back, too bad, it's a tradeoff,

    我並不認為這裡面 她情感的因素能起什麼作用

  • it's a tradeoff that the mother has made.

    我覺得在這起法律案件裡 公正來講

  • So a deal is a deal, you agree with Patrick?

    與她感情的變化是沒有關係的

  • I agree with Patrick, a deal's a deal.

    如果我一開始放棄撫養孩子 後來我又確實很強烈地

  • A deal is a deal.

    想要回孩子 很不幸 這是個交易 無法挽回了

  • - Yes. - Good. Yes.

    這是那個母親所做的交易

  • I would say that though I'm not really sure if I agree

    那麼交易就是交易 你同意Patrick的觀點?

  • with the idea that the child has a right to their mother.

    我同意Patrick的觀點 交易就是交易

  • I think the mother definitely has a right to her child

    交易就是交易

  • and I also think that there's some areas where market forces

    - 是的 - 很好 你來說

  • shouldn't necessarily penetrate.

    我想說 儘管我不是非常確定

  • I think that the whole surrogate mother area

    是否同意孩子應該歸於母親的觀點

  • smacks a little bit of dealing in human beings seems dehumanizing.

    我認為母親肯定有擁有對自己孩子的權利

  • It doesn't really seem right so that's my main reason.

    我也認為有些領域 市場

  • And what is... could you tell us your name.

    並不能完全解決問題

  • I'm Andrew.

    我認為整個代孕母親領域

  • Andrew, what is dehumanizing about buying and selling the right to a child, for money,

    都顯得有些不太人道

  • what is dehumanizing about it?

    看起來不是非常正確的事 這是我主要的理由

  • Well because you're buying someone's biological right.

    什麼是... 請先告訴我們你的名字

  • I mean you can't... in the law as it stated, you can't sell your own child

    我叫Andrew

  • like were you to have a child, I'd believe that the law

    Andrew 對於用錢買賣孩子的事 什麼是不太人道的

  • prohibits you selling it to another person or...

    不太人道指的是什麼?

  • So this like baby selling?

    因為你買了有些人天生的權利

  • Right. To a certain extent.

    你不能... 法律上來說 就像你有孩子

  • Though there's a contract with another person,

    但你不能賣自己的親生孩子 我相信法律

  • you've made agreements and what not, there is an undeniable emotional bond

    會禁止你把孩子賣給其他人...

  • that takes place between the mother and the child and it's wrong

    那麼這像販賣孩子?

  • to simply ignore this because you've written out something contractually.

    沒錯 某種程度上是的

  • Right. You want to reply to Andrew? Stay there.

    雖然你和另一個人簽了合約

  • You point out there's an undeniable emotional bond,

    達成了協議 但是在母親和孩子之間

  • I feel like in this situation, we're not necessarily arguing

    有無可否認的情感紐帶 由於簽訂了合約

  • against adoption or surrogacy in itself, we're just sort of

    就完全忽視這個 是錯誤的

  • pointing out the emotional differences.

    很好 你想回答Andrew的問題嗎? 請講

  • But wait, I mean, it's easy to break everything down

    你提出了母親和孩子之間有無法否認的感情紐帶

  • to numbers and say "Oh, we have contracts,"

    我覺得在這種情形下 我們沒有必要爭辯

  • like you're buying or selling a car but there are underlying emotions,

    收養或代孕的本身 我們只是

  • I mean, you're dealing with people, these are not objects to be bought and sold.

    提出情感的差異

  • Alright. What about Andrew's claim that this is like baby selling.

    但等一下 像你買賣一輛車一樣

  • I believe that adoption and surrogacy should be permitted,

    說 "哦 我們有合約"

  • whether or not I actually will partake in it is not really relevant

    很容易壓倒一切 但這是有感情基礎的

  • but I think that the government should, the government should

    你們賣的是人 它們是不能作為商品被買賣的

  • give its citizens the rights to allow for adoption and surrogacy.

    很好 Andrew指出這像販賣嬰兒

  • But adoption is... adoption is not according to...

    我相信收養和代孕是被允許的

  • Is adoption baby selling?

    無論與我是否參與其中 都沒關係

  • Well, do you think you should be able to bid for a baby that's up for adoption?

    我相信政府會 政府應該

  • That's Andrew's challenge.

    賦予市民收養和代孕的權利

  • Do I think I should be able to bid for a baby?

    但是收養是... 收養不是根據...

  • I'm not... Sure! It's a market, I feel the extent to which it's been applied

    收養會是販賣孩子的渠道?

  • and I'm not sure if the government should be able to permit it

    你認為你能為收養的孩子出價嗎?

  • and I have to think about it more but...

    那是Andrew的質疑

  • Alright. Fair enough. Are you satisfied Andrew?

    我認為能為孩子出價嗎?

  • Well, yeah, I mean, I think surrogacy should be permitted.

    我不... 是的! 這是市場 我認為它在某種程度上能被接受

  • I think that people can do it but I don't think that it should be

    我不確定 政府是否允許

  • forced upon people that once a contract is signed,

    但我需要好好考慮一下 但是...

  • it's absolutely the end all. I think that it's unenforceable.

    好了 好的 你同意Andrew的觀點嗎?

  • So people should be free Andrew to enter into these contracts

    是啊 我認為應該允許代孕

  • but it should not be enforceable in the court.

    我覺得人們可以這樣做 但我不認為

  • Not in the court, no.

    簽了名的一紙協議應該強加於人

  • Who would like to turn on one side or the other? Yes.

    用來說明一切 我覺得這是不能強制執行的

  • I think I have an interesting perspective on this because my brother

    那麼Andrew的觀點就是 大家可以隨意簽署合約

  • was actually one of the people who donated to a sperm bank

    但是在法庭上不該被強制執行

  • and he was paid a very large amount of money,

    在法庭上不行 不行

  • he was six feet tall but not blond, he had dimples though.

    誰想發表不同的觀點? 你來說

  • So he actually has, I'm an aunt now, he has a daughter,

    我對此事有一個有趣的觀點 因為我的哥哥

  • he donated his sperm to a lesbian couple in Oklahoma and he has been

    是精子銀行的捐獻者之一

  • contacted by them and he has seen pictures of his daughter but he still

    他得了一大筆錢

  • does not feel an emotional bond to his daughter,

    他六英尺高 不是金髮 不過他有酒窩

  • he just has a sense of curiosity about what she looks like

    他真的有孩子 我現在是阿姨了 他有個女兒

  • and what she's doing and how she is.

    他把精子捐給了一對住在俄克拉荷馬的女同性戀

  • He doesn't feel love for his child, so from this experience,

    他也和她們簽了合約 他見過他女兒的照片

  • I think the bond between a mother and a child cannot be compared

    但他對她女兒並沒有感情

  • to the bond between the father and the child.

    他只是好奇 她長什麼樣子

  • That's really interesting. What's your name?

    她在做什麼和她過得怎麼樣

  • Vivian.

    他並沒有感覺到對孩子的愛 從這次經歷看

  • Vivian. So we've got the case of surrogacy, commercial surrogacy,

    我認為母親與孩子的情感

  • and it's been compared to baby selling and we've been exploring

    是無法與父親和孩子的情感相比的

  • whether that analogy is apt and it can also be compared,

    這確實非常有趣 你叫什麼名字?

  • as you point out, to sperm selling. But you're saying that sperm selling and baby selling

    我叫Vivian

  • or even surrogacy are very different because...

    Vivian 我們提到的代孕案 商業代孕

  • Yes, they're unequal services.

    與販賣孩子相比 我們一直在探索

  • They're unequal services and that's because Vivian,

    這兩者是否類似 是否也可以與

  • you say that the tie, the bond...

    你所提出的精子銀行做對比 但你說販賣精子和販賣孩子

  • Yes, and also the time investment that's given by a mother,

    甚至說代孕都是有區別的 因為...

  • nine months, cannot be compared to a man going into a sperm bank,

    沒錯 它們是不同的服務

  • looking at pornography, depositing into a cup.

    它們是不同的服務 因為Vivian

  • I don't think those are equal.

    你說的連接 紐帶...

  • Good. Alright. So we...

    是的 還有母親投入的時間

  • Because that's what happens in a sperm bank.

    九個月 是無法與一個男人去精子銀行

  • Alright. So this is really interesting, we have... notice the arguments

    看看色情書 射在杯子裡相提並論的

  • that have come out so far.

    我覺得那是不相等的

  • The objections to surrogacy, the objections to enforcing

    很好 好了 那麼我們...

  • that contract are of at least two kinds.

    因為在精子銀行裡就是那樣的

  • There was the objection about tainted consent,

    好了 這確實很有趣 我們... 注意到

  • this time not because of coercion or implicit coercion

    目前的幾種觀點

  • but because of imperfect or flawed information.

    反對代孕 至少有兩種

  • So tainted or flawed consent can arise either because of coercion

    反對執行合約的聲音

  • or because of a lack of relevant information,

    一種反對是認為 並非出自真實意願

  • at least according to one argument that we've heard

    不是因為強迫或者隱含的強制

  • and then a second objection to enforcing the surrogacy contract

    而是因為有不完善的或者不完全的信息

  • was that it was somehow dehumanizing.

    因此 由於強制或缺少相關信息就能產生

  • Now when this case was decided by the courts,

    非真實意願或不完全同意的任何一種

  • what did they say about these arguments?

    至少根據我們已經聽到的這種論點

  • The lower court ruled that the contract was enforceable,

    然後第二個異議就是 強迫執行代孕合約

  • neither party had a superior bargaining position.

    是否有失人道

  • A price for the service was struck and a bargain was reached.

    現在這個案件已經被法院判決了

  • One side didn't force the other neither had disproportionate bargaining power.

    他們是如何辯論這些觀點的?

  • Then it went to the New Jersey Supreme Court.

    低等法院裁決 合約是具有強迫實施的

  • And what did they do? They said this contract is not enforceable.

    兩個當事人都沒有很突出的談判立場

  • They did grant custody to Mr. Stern as the father

    服務價格被打壓了 超值商品也就油然而生了

  • because they thought that would be in the best interest of the child

    一方不能強迫沒有議價能力的另一方

  • but they restored the rights of Mary Beth Whitehead

    後來案件轉到了新澤西州最高法院

  • and left it to lower courts to decide exactly what the visitation rights should be.

    他們是怎麼做的? 他們說合約不是強迫實施的

  • They invoked two different kinds of reasons, along the lines that Andrew proposed.

    他們承認了Stern先生的父親身份

  • First, there was not sufficiently informed consent, the court argued.

    因為他們認為那能給孩子提供最好的一切

  • "Under the contract the natural mother is irrevocably committed

    也賦予了Mary Beth Whitehead新的權利

  • before she knows the strength of her bond with her child,

    讓低等法院裁定 她具體的探視權

  • she never makes a truly voluntary informed decision for any decision

    他們提出了兩個不同的理由 就像Andrew所提出的一樣

  • prior to the baby's birth is in the most important sense,

    首先 法院拒絕的理由是當事人並未完全知情

  • uninformed," that was the court.

    "生母是在知道和孩子的強烈感情聯繫前

  • Then the court also made a version of the second argument

    簽署的合約

  • against commodification in this kind of case "this is the sale of a child,"

    她在孩子出生那一刻 這個最重要的感覺之前

  • the court said, "or at the very least, the sale of a mother's right to her child.

    是無法根據真實意願做出任何決定的

  • Whatever idealism may motivate the participants, the profit motive predominates

    她並未完全知情" 這就是法庭的理由

  • permeates, and ultimately governs the transaction."

    法庭也提出了第二個理由

  • And so regardless, the court said,

    是"這是販賣孩子"觀點的修正版觀點

  • regardless of any argument about consent or flawed consent

    法庭說 "至少 是母親出售了對孩子的權利"

  • or full information, there are some things in a civilized society

    無論唯心主義是否刺激了參與者 利潤動機都佔著主導影響

  • that money can't buy, that's what the court said

    最終支配了交易"

  • in voiding this contract.

    無論如何 法庭說

  • Well, what about these two arguments against the extension of markets

    無論是同意還是部分同意

  • to procreation and to reproduction?

    或者瞭解全部信息 有些事情在文明社會

  • How persuasive are they? There was... it's true, a voluntary agreement,

    是金錢不能買的 因此法庭判定

  • a contract struck between William Stern and Mary Beth Whitehead.

    合約無效

  • But there are at least two ways that consent can be other than truly free.

    對生產市場或生殖市場的推廣

  • First, if people are pressured or coerced to give their agreement

    有哪兩種反對的觀點呢?

  • and second, if their consent is not truly informed

    該如何說服他們呢? 那就是... 沒錯 這是自願協議

  • and in the case of surrogacy, the court said a mother can't know,

    合約影響著William Stern和Mary Beth Whitehead

  • even one who already has kids of her own,

    但是至少有兩種觀點說明 同意並不是完全自由的

  • what it would be like to bear a child and give it up for pay.

    其一是 人們受到壓力或強迫去同意

  • So in order to assess criticism, objection number one,

    第二是 如果他們同意的時候並不瞭解全部情況

  • we have to figure out just how free does a voluntary exchange

    在代孕案中 法庭說一個母親 即使她已經有了孩子

  • have to be with respect to the bargaining power and equal information

    還是無法瞭解

  • Question number one: how do we assess the second objection?

    她還是會願意生育孩子 並為了酬勞而放棄孩子

  • The second objection is more elusive, it's more difficult.

    為了評價並考證第一種觀點

  • Andrew acknowledged this, right? What does it mean to say

    我們要弄清楚 尊重議價能力 並給出均等的信息

  • there is something dehumanizing to make childbearing a market transaction?

    到底算不算真正的自由

  • Well, one of the philosophers we read on this subject, Elizabeth Anderson,

    問題一: 我們該如何評估第二種觀點呢?

  • tries to brings some philosophical clarity to the unease that Andrew articulated.

    第二種觀點更不易琢磨 更難一些

  • She said "by requiring the surrogate mother to repress whatever parental love

    Andrew也承認這點 是嗎? 在市場上 分娩生子的交易

  • she feels for the child, surrogacy contracts

    不夠人道是什麼意思呢?

  • convert women's labor into a form of alienated labor.

    我們在這課題上學習過的一位哲學家 Elizabeth Anderson

  • The surrogate's labor is alienated because she must divert it

    試著用一些哲學家的觀點來支持Andrew

  • from the end which the social practices of pregnancy rightly promote,

    她說 "代孕媽媽會被要求壓抑自己對孩子的愛

  • namely an emotional bond with her child."

    這樣的代孕合約

  • So what Anderson is suggesting is that certain goods should not be treated

    把女性的勞動轉換成了異化勞動

  • as open to use or to profit.

    說代孕勞動被異化是因為

  • Certain goods are properly valued in ways other than use.

    她必須轉移懷孕的社會實踐過程中所產生的感情

  • What are other ways of valuing and treating goods

    也就是轉移和孩子的感情聯繫"

  • that should not be open to use?

    所以Anderson提出 某些東西是不該被

  • Anderson says there are many: respect, appreciation,

    公開使用或從中獲利的

  • love, honor, awe, sanctity.

    有些東西除了使用之外 還有很多價值

  • There are many modes of valuation beyond use and certain goods

    什麼可以用其他方法衡量價值和對待的商品

  • are not properly valued if they're treated simply as objects of use.

    不該被公開使用呢?

  • How do we go about evaluating that argument of Anderson?

    Anderson說有很多: 例如尊重 感謝

  • In a way, it takes us back to the debate we had with utilitarianism.

    愛情 信用 敬畏和尊嚴

  • Is utility... is use the only proper way of treating goods,

    除了使用之外 還有很多形式的價值 而某些東西

  • including life, military service, procreation, childbearing?

    如果被當作簡單商品來使用的話 並沒有特定的價值

  • And if not, how do we figure out?

    我們該怎麼來研究Anderson的觀點呢?

  • How can we determine what modes of valuation

    在某種程度上 它把我們帶入了功利主義的辯論中

  • are fitting or appropriate to those goods?

    功利性... 是對待這些商品 包括生命 兵役

  • Several years ago there was a scandal surrounding a doctor,

    生殖 分娩的唯一途徑嗎?

  • an infertility specialist in Virginia named Cecil Jacobson.

    如果不是 我們該如何認為呢?

  • He didn't have a donor catalogue because unknown to his patients,

    我們該如何比較恰當的

  • all of the sperm he used to inseminate his patients came from one donor,

    來評價這些商品呢?

  • Dr. Jacobson himself.

    很多年前 在佛吉尼亞 有一個名叫Cecil Jacobson的

  • At least one woman who testified in court was unnerved at how much

    不孕癥醫生的醜聞

  • her newborn daughter looked just like him.

    他沒有捐贈目錄 因為他對病人保密

  • Now it's possible to condemn Dr. Jacobson for failing

    他給病人人工受精的精子都來源於一個捐贈者

  • to inform the women in advance that would be the argument about consent.

    Jacobson醫生自己

  • The columnist, Ellen Goodman, described the bizarre scenario as follows,

    至少一位婦女在法庭上身心交瘁地證明

  • "Dr. Jacobson," she wrote "gave his infertility business

    她的新生女兒看起來有多像他

  • the personal touch but now the rest of us,"

    現在Jacobson醫生可能已經被定罪

  • she wrote "are in for a round of second thoughts about sperm donation."

    因為他沒有事先徵求女性們的同意

  • Goodman concluded that fatherhood should be something you do,

    專欄作家 Ellen Goodman 是如此描述這個奇怪的

  • not something you donate. And I think what she was doing

    "Jacobson醫生" 她寫道 "只是為他個人

  • and what the philosopher Elizabeth Anderson is doing

    提供不孕不育業務 而不是為了我們其他人"

  • and what Andrew was suggesting with his argument about dehumanization

    她寫道 "在精子捐贈的第二輪思考中"

  • is pondering whether there are certain goods

    Goodman總結道 父親應該去做事

  • that money shouldn't buy, not just because of tainted consent

    而不是去捐贈 我認為她所做的

  • but also perhaps because certain goods are properly valued

    哲學家Elizabeth Anderson所做的

  • in a way higher than mere use.

    還有Andrew提出的有失人道的觀點

  • Those at least are the questions we're going to pursue

    讓我們考慮某些商品是否

  • with the help of some philosophers in the weeks to come.

    不該用金錢來購買 不只是因為非真實同意

When we ended last time, we were discussing

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