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CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENAS? WHAT'S NEXT?
WHAT'S NEXT? WE LOOK AT THE POTENTIAL
WE LOOK AT THE POTENTIAL RAMIFICATIONS.
RAMIFICATIONS. >> THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY INTO
>> THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY INTO THE PRESIDENT HAS SPIRALLED INTO
THE PRESIDENT HAS SPIRALLED INTO A DUEL BETWEEN HOUSES DEMOCRATS
A DUEL BETWEEN HOUSES DEMOCRATS AND TOP ADMINISTRATION THAT
AND TOP ADMINISTRATION THAT REFUSES TO COOPERATE.
REFUSES TO COOPERATE. EARLIER THIS MONTH WHITE HOUSE
EARLIER THIS MONTH WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR.
COUNSEL MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR. HE WROTE, IN ORDER TO FULFILL
HE WROTE, IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS DUTIES TO THE AMERICAN
HIS DUTIES TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE CONSTITUTION, THE
PEOPLE, THE CONSTITUTION, THE EXECUTIVE AND ALL FUTURE
EXECUTIVE AND ALL FUTURE OCCUPANTS OF THE OFFICE OF THE
OCCUPANTS OF THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND
PRESIDENCY, PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION CANNOT
HIS ADMINISTRATION CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN YOUR PARTISAN AND
PARTICIPATE IN YOUR PARTISAN AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL INQUIRY UNDER
UNCONSTITUTIONAL INQUIRY UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.
THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. >> WE'RE FIGHTING ALL THE
>> WE'RE FIGHTING ALL THE SUBPOENAS.
SUBPOENAS. >> WE KNOW THE WHITE HOUSE, VICE
>> WE KNOW THE WHITE HOUSE, VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, SECRETARY
PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE PORN POMPEO AND
OF STATE MIKE PORN POMPEO AND TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, RUDY
TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, RUDY GIULIANI, HAVE ALL BEEN
GIULIANI, HAVE ALL BEEN SUBPOENAED.
SUBPOENAED. WHAT HAPPENS NEXT TO THOSE IN
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT TO THOSE IN TRUMP'S ORBIT WHO REFUSE TO
TRUMP'S ORBIT WHO REFUSE TO COMPLY WITH THOSE SUBPOENAS?
COMPLY WITH THOSE SUBPOENAS? I CALLED DR. MATTHEW WILSON, AN
I CALLED DR. MATTHEW WILSON, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AT SOUTHERN METHODIST
AT SOUTHERN METHODIST UNIVERSITY.
UNIVERSITY. >> CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE THE
>> CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ACT AS A LAW
AUTHORITY TO ACT AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.
ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. THAT'S NOT ITS JOB.
THAT'S NOT ITS JOB. >> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S
>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S OUTRIGHT REFUSAL TO COOPERATE IS
OUTRIGHT REFUSAL TO COOPERATE IS NOT TESTING CONGRESS' POWER TO
NOT TESTING CONGRESS' POWER TO ISSUE SUBPOENAS, BUT CONGRESS'
ISSUE SUBPOENAS, BUT CONGRESS' POWER TO ENFORCE THEM.
POWER TO ENFORCE THEM. BUT LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK.
BUT LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK. THREE PRESIDENTS BESIDES TRUMP
THREE PRESIDENTS BESIDES TRUMP HAVE BEEN SUBPOENAED IN THE
HAVE BEEN SUBPOENAED IN THE PAST.
PAST. THOMAS JEFFERSON, RICHARD NICKS
THOMAS JEFFERSON, RICHARD NICKS TON AND BILL CLINTON.
TON AND BILL CLINTON. JEFFERSON INITIALLY REFUSED TO
JEFFERSON INITIALLY REFUSED TO COMPLY AND THEN PRODUCED SOME
COMPLY AND THEN PRODUCED SOME DOCUMENTS AND THEN OFFERED TO
DOCUMENTS AND THEN OFFERED TO TESTIFY.
TESTIFY. RICHARD NIXON RESIGNED, AND
RICHARD NIXON RESIGNED, AND CLINTON'S SUBPOENA WAS WITHDRAWN
CLINTON'S SUBPOENA WAS WITHDRAWN AFTER HE VOLUNTARILY AGREED TO
AFTER HE VOLUNTARILY AGREED TO TESTIFY.
TESTIFY. HERE'S KEITH WHITTINGTON, A
HERE'S KEITH WHITTINGTON, A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR AT
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY.
PRINCETON UNIVERSITY. >> THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE
>> THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE LEGAL GROUNDS FOR REFUSING TO
LEGAL GROUNDS FOR REFUSING TO COOPERATE AT ALL?
COOPERATE AT ALL? WHAT PRESIDENTIAL
WHAT PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE DONE IN THE
ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE DONE IN THE PAST AND WHAT THE TRUMP
PAST AND WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE ON A
ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE ON A OCCASIONS AS WELL IS LEAN ON
OCCASIONS AS WELL IS LEAN ON EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE IN ORDER TO
EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE IN ORDER TO ARGUE THE VERY SPECIFIC
ARGUE THE VERY SPECIFIC DOCUMENTS, VERY SPECIFIC
DOCUMENTS, VERY SPECIFIC INFORMATION HAS TO BE KEPT
INFORMATION HAS TO BE KEPT CONFIDENTIAL IN THE EXECUTIVE
CONFIDENTIAL IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND CAN'T BE SHARED WITH
BRANCH AND CAN'T BE SHARED WITH CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. WHAT'S STRIKING ABOUT THE
WHAT'S STRIKING ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION'S CURRENT
ADMINISTRATION'S CURRENT POSITION IS IT DOESN'T MAKE
POSITION IS IT DOESN'T MAKE THOSE KIND OF VERY SPECIFIC
THOSE KIND OF VERY SPECIFIC CLAIMS.
CLAIMS. INSTEAD, IT'S MAKING A VERY
INSTEAD, IT'S MAKING A VERY BLANKET CLAIM, WE'RE NOT GOING
BLANKET CLAIM, WE'RE NOT GOING TO COOPERATE AT ALL.
TO COOPERATE AT ALL. >> WITH THAT LACK OF PRECEDENCE,
>> WITH THAT LACK OF PRECEDENCE, TRUMP'S CRITICS ARE WONDERING
TRUMP'S CRITICS ARE WONDERING HOW POWERFUL SUBPOENAS ARE.
HOW POWERFUL SUBPOENAS ARE. >> THEY GAVE HIM THREE SUBPOENAS
>> THEY GAVE HIM THREE SUBPOENAS LIKE PARKING TICKETS.
LIKE PARKING TICKETS. >> CONGRESS DOES HAVE A FEW
>> CONGRESS DOES HAVE A FEW OPTIONS, THOUGH RARELY USED.
OPTIONS, THOUGH RARELY USED. CRIMINAL CONTEMPT, CIVIL
CRIMINAL CONTEMPT, CIVIL ENFORCEMENT AND -- FIRST UP,
ENFORCEMENT AND -- FIRST UP, CRIMINAL CONTENT.
CRIMINAL CONTENT. >> THEY CAN HOLD THE RELEVANT
>> THEY CAN HOLD THE RELEVANT EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICIAL IN
EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICIAL IN CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS FOR NOT
CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS FOR NOT COMPLYING WITH THE SUBPOENA
COMPLYING WITH THE SUBPOENA WHICH MEANS THEY CAN THEN REFER
WHICH MEANS THEY CAN THEN REFER THAT TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
THAT TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.
FOR CRIMINAL PROSECUTION. IN FACT, AS THE JUSTICE
IN FACT, AS THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT ACTUALLY
DEPARTMENT WILL NOT ACTUALLY PROSECUTE THOSE CASES.
PROSECUTE THOSE CASES. >> THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE
>> THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE HOUSE HELD ATTORNEY GENERAL
HOUSE HELD ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM BARR AND COMMERCE
WILLIAM BARR AND COMMERCE SECRETARY KILLWILBUR ROSS IN
SECRETARY KILLWILBUR ROSS IN CRIMINAL CONTEMPT.
CRIMINAL CONTEMPT. THEY ASKED THE JUSTICE
THEY ASKED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO PROSECUTE THOSE
DEPARTMENT TO PROSECUTE THOSE TWO FOR IGNORING THEIR
TWO FOR IGNORING THEIR SUBPOENAS.
SUBPOENAS. BUT, OF COURSE, THE TRUMP
BUT, OF COURSE, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S DEPARTMENT OF
ADMINISTRATION'S DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WEREN'T EXACTLY GOING TO
JUSTICE WEREN'T EXACTLY GOING TO PROSECUTE ITS OWN ATTORNEY
PROSECUTE ITS OWN ATTORNEY GENERAL.
GENERAL. THE ONLY OTHER TIME IN U.S.
THE ONLY OTHER TIME IN U.S. HISTORY THIS HAS HAPPENED TO A
HISTORY THIS HAS HAPPENED TO A SITTING CABINET MEMBER WAS IN
SITTING CABINET MEMBER WAS IN 2012 WHEN A REPUBLICAN HOUSE
2012 WHEN A REPUBLICAN HOUSE HELD THEN-ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC
HELD THEN-ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER IN CRIMINAL CONTEMPT OF
HOLDER IN CRIMINAL CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. BOTH OF THESE EXAMPLES SHOW THAT
BOTH OF THESE EXAMPLES SHOW THAT GOING THE CRIMINAL CONTEMPT
GOING THE CRIMINAL CONTEMPT ROUTE MAY NOT BE THE BEST
ROUTE MAY NOT BE THE BEST OPTION.
OPTION. CONGRESS CAN ALSO GO THE CIVIL
CONGRESS CAN ALSO GO THE CIVIL ROUTE.
ROUTE. ESSENTIALLY ASKING THE COURTS TO
ESSENTIALLY ASKING THE COURTS TO ORDER THE WITNESS TO HAND OVER
ORDER THE WITNESS TO HAND OVER THE DOUMS.
THE DOUMS. >> THEY CAN TRY TO TAKE THOSE
>> THEY CAN TRY TO TAKE THOSE PROJECTIONS, THOSE SUBPOENAS TO
PROJECTIONS, THOSE SUBPOENAS TO COURT AND TRY TO GET A COURT
COURT AND TRY TO GET A COURT ORDER.
ORDER. >> BUT CIVIL ENFORCEMENT CAN
>> BUT CIVIL ENFORCEMENT CAN TAKE FOREVER.
TAKE FOREVER. SO, THE THIRD OPTION FOR
SO, THE THIRD OPTION FOR CONGRESS IS INHERENT CONTEMPT.
CONGRESS IS INHERENT CONTEMPT. CONGRESS HAS RARELY USED IT IN
CONGRESS HAS RARELY USED IT IN THE PAST BUT THEY HAVE THE POWER
THE PAST BUT THEY HAVE THE POWER TO IMPRISON OR FINE NONCOMPLIANT
TO IMPRISON OR FINE NONCOMPLIANT WITNESSES ON THEIR OWN.
WITNESSES ON THEIR OWN. >> IT'S BEEN SINCE THE 1920s
>> IT'S BEEN SINCE THE 1920s WHEN CONGRESS USED THE SERGEANT
WHEN CONGRESS USED THE SERGEANT OF ARMS TO GO AND ARREST
OF ARMS TO GO AND ARREST SOMEONE.
SOMEONE. THAT THEATRICALLY IS POSSIBLE.
THAT THEATRICALLY IS POSSIBLE. THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COULD SEND ITS SERGEANT-AT-ARMS
COULD SEND ITS SERGEANT-AT-ARMS TO ENFORCE A CONTEMPT CITATION.
TO ENFORCE A CONTEMPT CITATION. I THINK THAT'S UNLIKELY TO
I THINK THAT'S UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN.
HAPPEN. IT HASN'T BEEN DONE IN ALMOST
IT HASN'T BEEN DONE IN ALMOST 100 YEARS.
100 YEARS. >> THE CALCULATION BEING MADE BY
>> THE CALCULATION BEING MADE BY TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS WHEN THEY DECIDE TO I GUESS
WHEN THEY DECIDE TO I GUESS FOREA SUBPOENA?
FOREA SUBPOENA? >> I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE --
>> I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE -- THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO BE
THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO BE IMPEACHED IN ANY CASE.
IMPEACHED IN ANY CASE. HE'S ASSUMING IMPEACHMENT IS
HE'S ASSUMING IMPEACHMENT IS GOING TO OCCUR AND SO NOW HE'S
GOING TO OCCUR AND SO NOW HE'S LOOKING FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD
LOOKING FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD AND FOCUSING HIS ATTENTION ON
AND FOCUSING HIS ATTENTION ON THE SENATE KRIL AND ULTIMATELY
THE SENATE KRIL AND ULTIMATELY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
TO THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
CAMPAIGN. IF YOU'RE CONVINCED THEY'RE
IF YOU'RE CONVINCED THEY'RE GOING TO IMPEACH NO MATTER WHAT,
GOING TO IMPEACH NO MATTER WHAT, IT DOES ENCOURAGE THE WHITE
IT DOES ENCOURAGE THE WHITE HOUSE TO BE NONCOOPERATIVE.
HOUSE TO BE NONCOOPERATIVE. >> THERE'S ONE MORE THING
>> THERE'S ONE MORE THING CONGRESS COULD DO.
CONGRESS COULD DO. LESS OF A LEGAL OPTION AND MORE
LESS OF A LEGAL OPTION AND MORE OF A POLITICAL TACTIC.
OF A POLITICAL TACTIC. BASICALLY, THEY TRIED TO USE
BASICALLY, THEY TRIED TO USE THEIR LEVERAGE TO DERAIL
THEIR LEVERAGE TO DERAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEGISLATIVE
PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEGISLATIVE AGENDA.
AGENDA. >> AND THE TRUMP
>> AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S CASE, IT'S NOT
ADMINISTRATION'S CASE, IT'S NOT CLEAR THEY HAVE A LEGISLATIVE
CLEAR THEY HAVE A LEGISLATIVE AGENDA.
AGENDA. >> IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING,
>> IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING, IGNORING ALL OF THESE SUBPOENAS
IGNORING ALL OF THESE SUBPOENAS COULD BACKFIRE FOR THE TRUMP
COULD BACKFIRE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
ADMINISTRATION. BECAUSE THAT RESISTANCE COULD BE
BECAUSE THAT RESISTANCE COULD BE GROUNDS FOR IMPEACHMENT IN AND
GROUNDS FOR IMPEACHMENT IN AND OF ITSELF.
OF ITSELF. >> THE HOUSE MIGHT SIMPLY SAY,
>> THE HOUSE MIGHT SIMPLY SAY, IF YOU'RE HIDING THE EVIDENCE OF