At a certain point I ended up with thousands of pieces. I didn't know what I would do with it,

到某一天，我已經有了上千件物品。我不知道該拿它們做什麼

I just thought a lot about what it meant to be a person of color living during Jim Crow.

我只是想了很多，在歧視黑人的環境中身為一個有色人種意味著什麼

I had no intention of creating a museum, but the collection kept growing,

我原先沒有建立博物館的用意，但是收藏品持續增加

so in the 1990s I gave my collection to the University.

所以在 90 年代，我把我的收藏品交給了大學

I took 15 years, but in 2012 we opened this museum,

我花了十五年，但在 2012 年我們開了這間博物館

I have lots of respect for

我對那些讚揚非裔美籍人士歷史

museums that celebrate african-american history, that celebrate african-american accomplishment,

的博物館抱有許多敬意，那些讚賞非裔美籍人士功績的

but that's not what this facility was. I wanted to create an actual racism facility to have people

但是這個機構不一樣。我希望創建一個實際的種族歧視機構，好讓人們

focused on

在我們的歷史中

this specific topic, in terms of our history. So if you just have a society with millions of postcards like this

專注於這一個特定主題。所以要是在你的社會中，有幾百萬張像這樣的明信片

Does that reinforce certain ideas about black people and white people?

這是否加強了有關黑人和白人的特定想法？

Some of the best discussions we have in the museum are about the word nigger

我們在博物館中一些最好的討論，是關於「黑鬼」 (nigger) 這個字的

Which sounds kind of weird by the way because I'm a sociologist and we don't believe words have any inherent meaning

聽起來有些詭異，因為我是一個社會學家，我們不相信字詞有任何固有的含義

They're just sound science that we give but we do believe that people- once the meanings are given that they are shared

它們只是我們發出的聲音科學，但我們的確相信一旦被賦予意義，那些詞就是為大家共有的

I mean no piece is inherently racist

我的意思是，沒有物品是本來就帶有種族主義

It's a racist society which will create racist objects and will racialise other objects.

而是一個種族主義的社會會創造種族主義的物品，並且使其他物品種族主義化

That's why the watermelon is- has a race, so there's nothing inherent about a watermelon that makes it racist

這也是為什麼西瓜會關乎種族，西瓜一開始是和種族主義毫無相關的

But you know darn well that it's been racialized

但你天殺地知道它正是已經被種族主義化了

someone looking at ancho mama objects or other "mammy" images

有些人看著安丘媽媽物件或是其他「保姆」形象時

They don't think of that as offensive. They think of good time spent with the families

他們不認為那會冒犯人。他們想到和家人共度的好時光

It's very nostalgic. Someone else looking at those same pieces. They see the vestiges of slavery and segregation

非常令人懷舊。其他人看著那些一樣的物件，他們看到的是奴隸制和種族隔離的殘存痕跡

So often we're not deciding that something is

所以我們通常不會決定哪些東西是種族主義的

Racist, but what we are doing are collecting pieces that help us talk about racism

而是搜集那些幫助我們談論種族主義的物品

We have lots of friends at the museum, and we receive hundreds of pieces a year. The first director of museum,

我們在博物館有很多好友，而且我們每年會接收到幾百件物品。博物館的第一任理事長

He said to me one day: "Hey, there's a couple of guys I want you to meet."

牠有天對我說：「嘿，有幾個人我想讓你見見。」

Here we go, here's some Jim Crow related materials. These are the dolls and

這就是了，這裡有一些和種族歧視有關的東西。這些是玩偶

Some of them are older, some are newer

有一些比較老，一些比較新

These are like 1950s. Male and female. Yeah. Well those are really interesting

這些好像是 50 年代的。男性和女性。是的。嗯真的很有趣

Our group of friends were all collecting this because we realized what it said about our society and what it said about

我們所有的朋友都在搜集這些，因為我們意識到它們道出了我們的社會

Where we were in the past and where maybe we still were.

道出了我們的過去，也或許是現在

When we met David Pilgrim, in the whole Jim Crow Museum and all of that, it was like-

當我們在種族歧視博物館遇見 David Pilgrim 時，那就好像 -

Finally there's a place where we can put- The sense of relief that we could let go of these objects so other people could

終於有一個地方可以讓我們安置 - 一種我們終於可以放下這些物品的釋然感，其他人就能從中學習

learn from it. We have some understanding of

我們對於偏執的行為有一些了解

bigotry, we have some understanding of

我們也了解

Being the outsider

身為一個局外人

Or not being accepted or being told that we are not welcomed

或是不被接納，或是被說我們不受歡迎

We can't be accepted you you have no place here. I

我們不能被接納，這裡沒有你的位子

Think because we've experienced that in our own lives because we're gay

我想那是因為我們在自己的生活中就有經歷過，我們是同性戀

There's a little transference there to trying to help

就有點想轉移到試著幫助理解

understand the even bigger question of bigotry and then likewise racism.

更大的偏執問題，比如種族主義

Wow, this is really racist. This is an ashtray where the black washer woman

哇，這真的很種族主義。這是個煙灰缸，上頭有一個女黑人洗衣工

She has her one breast stuck in the wringer, and so she's hollering. My god. That's also sexist.

她其中一個胸部卡在絞衣器裡了，所以她在大喊。我的老天，那也很性別主義

I think that Jim Crow would love that. This is the Jim Crow. This is on multiple levels. This is a wonderful piece

我想吉姆．克勞會很喜歡這個的。這就是種族歧視。各種程度上。這是個驚人的作品

Once we finally discovered the Jim Crow Museum

我們一旦發現了種族歧視博物館

it give us more impetus to go out and find, collect, save. They now have at least 500 things from us.

它給了我們更多動力出去尋找、搜集然後保存。他們現在至少有 500 件來自我們的物品

By collecting those things we get a broader picture

藉由搜集那些東西，我們對於種族主義

of how racism

如何持續到

continued all the way up into the 60s and 70s and still continues

60 、 70 年代以及之後，有更深的理解

I've seen things about President Obama that were horrible

我曾經看過有關歐巴馬總統的糟糕的東西

I think people who go to the Jim Crow museum are often surprised when they see something from

我想去到種族歧視博物館的人經常會很驚訝看到來自 2015 年的

2015

物品

as racist as many of the things from a hundred years ago, and we've had friends who are a complete mess

竟然和來自一百年前的東西一樣種族歧視，我們有一些朋友在離開博物館時

after they left because suddenly they've been confronted with the truth

身心憔悴，因為他們頓時和真相面對面

For many years when I traveled I would say that the United States

在過去有很多年，在旅行時我會說美國

despite its history of enslavement and Jim Crow that we are today more democratic and more egalitarian than we've ever been and

縱然有著奴隸制和種族歧視的歷史，但是現在已經有了前所未有的民主和平等

I stopped saying that about two years ago

我在大約兩年前停止了那種言論

I'm not suggesting that we are back in the Jim Crow period, don't get it twisted

我不是在說我們退回了種族歧視時代，別曲解了

It's not like that

並不是那樣

But what I am saying is I hear and see a level of

但我指的是，我聽到也看到了一定程度的

racist rhetoric that is reminiscent of when I was growing up in Alabama under Governor George Wallace

懷舊的種族主義說辭，懷念生活在州長喬治．華萊士管轄下的阿拉巴馬州 (他曾阻擋阿拉巴馬大學開放黑人學生入學)

People say they don't want to talk about race, but they're doing it all the time

人們說他們不想談論種族，但他們總是在談

But they're not talking about it in places where their ideas can be challenged

不過他們只會在同溫層裡談