Before we do the future,

辛蒂史帝佛斯：關於說故事的未來。

let's talk about what is never going to change about storytelling.

在我們談未來之前，

Shonda Rhimes: What's never going to change.

我們先談談，關於說故事， 永遠不會變的有哪些。

Obviously, I think good stories are never going to change,

珊達萊梅斯：永遠不會變的。

the need for people to gather together and exchange their stories

顯然，我認為好故事永遠不會改變，

and to talk about the things that feel universal,

人們需要聚在一起交換彼此的故事，

the idea that we all feel a compelling need to watch stories,

需要談論那些感覺普世的事情，

to tell stories, to share stories --

我們都有股強烈的需求 去觀賞故事、

sort of the gathering around the campfire

去說故事、去分享故事，

to discuss the things that tell each one of us

有點像圍著營火，

that we are not alone in the world.

討論一些事來告訴我們每個人

Those things to me are never going to change.

我們在世界上並不孤單。

That essence of storytelling is never going to change.

對我而言，那些都是不會改變的。

CS: OK. In preparation for this conversation,

故事的那種本質是永遠不會改變的。

I checked in with Susan Lyne,

辛蒂：好，為了準備這場對談，

who was running ABC Entertainment

我和蘇珊林恩因談過，

when you were working on "Grey's Anatomy" --

當你在做《實習醫生》時，

SR: Yes.

ABC 娛樂台是她在經營。

CS: And she said that there was this indelible memory she had

珊達：是的。

of your casting process,

辛蒂：她說她有個難忘的記憶，

where without discussing it with any of the executives,

和你的選角過程有關，

you got people coming in to read for your scripts,

在沒有和任何主管討論過的情況下，

and every one of them was the full range of humanity,

你就找人來試鏡，

you did not type anyone in any way,

且有許多來自三教九流的人。

and that it was completely surprising.

你並沒有以任何方式將任何人分類，

So she said, in addition to retraining the studio executives,

這點非常讓人訝異。

you also, she feels,

她說，除了重新教育了 電視公司的主管之外，

and I think this is -- I agree,

她覺得你也──

retrained the expectations of the American TV audience.

而這點我也同意──

So what else does the audience not yet realize that it needs?

重新教育了美國電視觀眾的期望。

SR: What else does it not yet realize?

還有什麼是觀眾自己 還不知道他們需要的？

Well, I mean, I don't think we're anywhere near there yet.

珊達：觀眾自己還不知道的？

I mean, we're still in a place

嗯，我覺得我們 還沒辦法回答這個問題。

in which we're far, far behind what looks like the real world in actuality.

我是說，我們還在一個

I wasn't bringing in a bunch of actors

和看似真實世界相距甚遠的地方。

who looked very different from one another

我並沒有請來一群

simply because I was trying to make a point,

看起來非常不同的演員，

and I wasn't trying to do anything special.

只因為我想闡明一個重點，

It never occurred to me that that was new, different or weird.

並不是為了標新立異。

I just brought in actors because I thought they were interesting

我從未想過那麼做是新的、 不同的或怪異的。

and to me, the idea that it was completely surprising to everybody --

請那些演員來試鏡， 只因為我覺得他們有趣，

I didn't know that for a while.

對我而言，這個想法讓大家感到驚訝，

I just thought: these are the actors I want to see play these parts.

但我有一段時間毫無所覺。

I want to see what they look like if they read.

我只是想：我想看 這些演員詮釋這些角色。

We'll see what happens.

我想看他們讀劇本的模樣。

So I think the interesting thing that happens is

看看會如何。

that when you look at the world through another lens,

我想，這當中很有趣的事是，

when you're not the person normally in charge of things,

當你用不同的濾鏡看世界時，

it just comes out a different way.

當你不再是一貫主導事情的人時，

CS: So you now have this big machine that you run,

世界看起來就不一樣了。

as a titan -- as you know, last year when she gave her talk --

辛蒂：以你現在運作的這個大機器，

she's a titan.

這個巨擘──如你所知， 去年當她來演說時──

So what do you think is going to happen as we go on?

她是個巨擘。

There's a huge amount of money involved in producing these shows.

依你所見，接下來會發生什麼事？

While the tools of making stories have gone and gotten greatly democratized,

製作這些節目涉及了龐大的金錢。

there's still this large distribution:

雖然製造故事的工具變得更大眾化，

people who rent networks, who rent the audience to advertisers

還是有很大範圍的傳播：

and make it all pay.

租電視頻道的人， 在各個時段賣廣告給廠商，

How do you see the business model changing now that anyone can be a storyteller?

讓所有人買單的人。

SR: I think it's changing every day.

現在每個人都可以說故事，對於商業 模式的轉變來說，你有什麼看法？

I mean, the rapid, rapid change that's happening is amazing.

珊達：我認為它每天都在改變。

And I feel -- the panic is palpable,

快速、快速改變的一切很了不起。

and I don't mean that in a bad way.

我覺得⋯⋯明顯地恐慌，

I think it's kind of exciting.

並不是件壞事。

The idea that there's sort of an equalizer happening,

反而蠻讓人興奮的。

that sort of means that anybody can make something, is wonderful.

有某種平衡機制正在發生，

I think there's some scary in the idea that you can't find the good work now.

意味著任何人都可以做些什麼， 這概念十分美好。

There's so much work out there.

我想，現在說找不到好作品， 是件可怕的事。

I think there's something like 417 dramas on television right now

世界上充斥著這麼多作品。

at any given time in any given place,

現在光電視上大概 就有 417 個電視劇，

but you can't find them.

任何時段任何地點都有。

You can't find the good ones.

但你就是找不到。

So there's a lot of bad stuff out there because everybody can make something.

你找不到好的作品。

It's like if everybody painted a painting.

現在有太多糟糕的作品， 因為每個人都可以做出點什麼。

You know, there's not that many good painters.

就好像每個人都在畫同一幅畫。

But finding the good stories, the good shows,

並沒有那麼多好畫家。

is harder and harder and harder.

要找到好故事、好節目，

Because if you have one tiny show over here on AMC

是越來越難了。

and one tiny show over here over there,

因為在 AMC 電視台上 有一個小節目，

finding where they are becomes much harder.

這裡有一個，那裡有一個，

So I think that ferreting out the gems

要找到它們在哪裡就變得更困難。

and finding out who made the great webisode and who made this,

我認為搜尋寶石，

it's -- I mean, think about the poor critics

找出誰做了很棒的網路劇集、 誰做了這個，

who now are spending 24 hours a day

它⋯⋯我是說，想想可憐的劇評家，

trapped in their homes watching everything.

他們現在一天要花 24 小時，

It's not an easy job right now.

困在家裡看所有的東西。

So the distribution engines are getting more and more vast,

這不是容易的工作。

but finding the good programming for everybody in the audience

所以，傳播引擎變得愈來愈廣大，

is getting harder.

但要為每個觀眾找到好的節目

And unlike the news,

愈來愈難。

where everything's getting winnowed down to just who you are,

和新聞不同，

television seems to be getting --

對新聞而言，一切已經 被剔除到只剩下你是誰，

and by television I mean anything you can watch, television shows on --

電視似乎越來越──

seems to be getting wider and wider and wider.

所謂電視是指任何 能收看的電視節目──

And so anybody's making stories,

似乎是變得愈來愈寬廣。

and the geniuses are sometimes hidden.

所以任何人都在製造故事，

But it's going to be harder to find,

反而天才有時被埋沒了。

and at some point that will collapse.

會愈來愈難找到，

People keep talking about peak TV.

到某個臨界點，就會崩垮。

I don't know when that's going to happen.

人們不斷談論 電視高峰（peak TV）。

I think at some point it'll collapse a little bit

我不知道那何時會發生。

and we'll, sort of, come back together.

我想到某個時間，它會開始崩解，

I don't know if it will be network television.

而我們就會回到一體。

I don't know if that model is sustainable.

我不知道會不會是以 電視聯播網的方式出現。

CS: What about the model

我不知道這個模型是否永續。

that Amazon and Netflix are throwing a lot of money around right now.

辛蒂：那麼亞馬遜和網飛（Netflix）

SR: That is true.

投入很多錢的那個模式又如何呢？

I think it's an interesting model.

珊達：確實。

I think there's something exciting about it.

我認為那是有趣的模式。

For content creators, I think there's something exciting about it.

我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

For the world, I think there's something exciting about it.

對內容創作者而言， 我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

The idea that there are programs now

對世界而言， 我認為它有讓人興奮之處。

that can be in multiple languages with characters from all over the world

有這些節目

that are appealing and come out for everybody at the same time

能被多重語言觀賞， 主角們來自世界各地，

is exciting.

都很吸引人，且能讓所有人同時觀看，

I mean, I think the international sense that television can now take on

這個概念很讓人興奮。

makes sense to me,

我是說，電視現在 能夠呈現出的國際感，

that programming can now take on.

我覺得很合理，

Television so much is made for, like -- here's our American audience.

節目的國際觀。

We make these shows,

我們太多節目都是製作給⋯⋯ 像在這裡是給美國的觀眾。

and then they shove them out into the world

我們製作那些節目，

and hope for the best,

把它們推出給外界，

as opposed to really thinking about the fact that America is not it.

期望能有最好的結果，

I mean, we love ourselves and everything, but it's not i.

卻沒有真正想到美國不代表全世界。

And we should be taking into account the fact

不管我們多愛自己， 美國不代表全世界。

that there are all of these other places in the world

我們應該要想，

that we should be interested in while we're telling stories.

世界上有這麼多其他地方，

It makes the world smaller.

是我們可以在說故事這塊著墨的。

I don't know.

這樣能讓世界變小。

I think it pushes forward the idea that the world is a universal place,

我不知道。

and our stories become universal things.

我想，這個模式說明， 世界是全人類的地方，

We stop being other.

而我們的故事變成是全人類的產物。

CS: You've pioneered, as far as I can see,

我們不再是他者。

interesting ways to launch new shows, too.

辛蒂：就我所知，你開創了

I mean, when you launched "Scandal" in 2012,

很有意思的方式來發表新節目。

there was this amazing groundswell of support on Twitter

我是說，當你在 2012 年 推出《醜聞風暴》，

the likes of which nobody had seen before.

推特上的支持迅速高漲，非常驚人，

Do you have any other tricks up your sleeve

可以說是前所未見。

when you launch your next one?

你在要發表下一個節目時，

What do you think will happen in that regard?

還有任何其他的袖裡玄機嗎？

SR: We do have some interesting ideas.

在這件事上，你認為未來會如何？

We have a show called "Still Star-Crossed" coming out this summer.

珊達：我們確實有些很有趣的點子。

We have some interesting ideas for that.

今年夏天我們會推出 一個節目《悲戀再續》。

I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do them in time.

對那節目，我們有一些 很有趣的點子。

I thought they were fun.

我不確定來不來得及實現那些點子。

But the idea that we would live-tweet our show

我認為它們很好玩也很好笑。

was really just us thinking that would be fun.

但在推特上直播節目的這個想法，

We didn't realize that the critics would start to live-tweet along with us.

其實只是我們認為那樣會很好玩。

But the fans -- getting people to be a part of it,

我們沒料到評論界會 和我們一起推特直播。

making it more of a campfire --

但影迷們──讓人們成為 節目的一部分，

you know, when you're all on Twitter together

讓它更像個營火──

and you're all talking together,

你知道，當大家都一起在推特上，

it is more of a shared experience,

所有人一起說話，

and finding other ways to make that possible

它就更像是共有的經驗，

and finding other ways to make people feel engaged

找到其他方式讓共有成為可能，

is important.

找到其他方式讓人們有參與感，

CS: So when you have all those different people making stories

是很重要的。

and only some of them are going to break through

辛蒂：當有這麼多 不同的人在創造故事，

and get that audience somehow,

卻只有其中一些人能夠成功，

how do you think storytellers will get paid?

得到觀眾的心，

SR: I actually have been struggling with this concept as well.

你認為說故事的人要如何賺錢？

Is it going to be a subscriber model?

珊達：我其實也對這個觀念很掙扎。

Are people going to say, like, I'm going to watch this particular person's shows,

將來會是訂閱模式嗎？

and that's how we're going to do it?

人們是否會說， 我就是要看這個人的節目，

CS: I think we should buy a passport to Shondaland. Right?

而我們就要採用這個做法？

SR: I don't know about that, but yeah. That's a lot more work for me.

辛蒂：我們應買本 到珊達國度的護照，對吧？

I do think that there are going to be different ways,

珊達：這我就不知道了， 但對我來說是有更多事要做。

but I don't know necessarily.

我確實認為將來會有不同的方式，

I mean, I'll be honest and say a lot of content creators

只是我不知道是什麼。

are not necessarily interested in being distributors,

我的意思是，老實說， 許多內容創造者

mainly because what I dream of doing

並不見得有興趣做發行者，

is creating content.

主要是因為我夢想要做的事，

I really love to create content.

就是創造內容。

I want to get paid for it

我真的很愛創造內容。

and I want to get paid the money that I deserve to get paid for it,

我想靠它來賺錢，

and there's a hard part in finding that.

且我想要賺到我用它應該賺得的錢，

But I also want it to be made possible

這是有難度的。

for, you know, the people who work with me,

但我也希望能創造可能性，

the people who work for me,

為了那些和我一同工作的人

everybody to sort of get paid in a way, and they're all making a living.

和那些為我工作的人，

How it gets distributed is getting harder and harder.

讓大家都能賺到錢，都能謀生。

CS: How about the many new tools,

要如何發行就變得愈來愈困難。

you know, VR, AR ...

辛蒂：那麼眾多的新工具呢？

I find it fascinating that you can't really binge-watch,

虛擬實境、擴增實境⋯⋯

you can't fast-forward in those things.

我覺得很炫的是，你無法狂看、刷劇，

What do you see as the future of those for storytelling?

你不能快轉這些東西。

SR: I spent a lot of time in the past year

未來把這些技術用在說故事上， 你有什麼看法？

just exploring those,

珊達：過去一年我花了許多時間

getting lots of demonstrations and paying attention.

單純在探究那些工具，

I find them fascinating,

得到許多展示，密切關注。

mainly because I think that --

我覺得它們令人驚艷，

I think most people think of them for gaming,

主要是因為我認為

I think most people think of them for things like action,

大部分人都會把它們和遊戲聯想，

and I think that there is a sense of intimacy

大部分人都會把它們和動作聯想，

that is very present in those things,

我覺得有一種親密感

the idea that -- picture this,

顯然存在於這些新技術中。

you can sit there and have a conversation with Fitz,

這個想法⋯⋯想像一下，

or at least sit there while Fitz talks to you,

你可以坐在那裡， 和費茲交談，

President Fitzgerald Grant III,

或至少費茲對你說話時 可以坐在那裡，

while he talks to you

費茲是《醜聞風暴》中的總統，

about why he's making a choice that he makes,

當他對你說

and it's a very heartfelt moment.

為什麼他要做出那些選擇時，

And instead of you watching a television screen,

那是個非常真誠的時刻。

you're sitting there next to him, and he's having this conversation.

你不是在看著電視螢幕，

Now, you fall in love with the man

你是坐在他旁邊，和他對談。

while he's doing it from a television screen.

當這個人在電視螢幕上

Imagine sitting next to him,

這麼做時就已經能讓你愛上他，

or being with a character like Huck who's about to execute somebody.

想像一下坐在他旁邊，

And instead of having a scene

或像哈克這個角色， 他正要處死某人。

where, you know, he's talking to another character very rapidly,

你眼前不再只有一個場景

he goes into a closet and turns to you and tells you, you know,

是他對著另一個角色快速說話，

what's going to happen and why he's afraid and nervous.

而是他走進一間小室， 轉向你，告訴你

It's a little more like theater, and I'm not sure it would work,

接下來發生的事， 和他感到害怕緊張的原因。

but I'm fascinating by the concept of something like that

這會比較像戲院，我不確定會成功，

and what that would mean for an audience.

但我覺得這個概念

And to get to play with those ideas would be interesting,

以及它對觀眾的意義，都令人驚艷。

and I think, you know, for my audience, the people who watch my shows,

能夠運用那些點子，會很有趣，

which is, you know, women 12 to 75,

我認為，對我的觀眾而言， 看我的節目的人，

there's something interesting in there for them.

也就是從 12 到 75 歲的女性，

CS: And how about the input of the audience?

對他們來說是有趣的。

How interested are you in the things

辛蒂：那麼觀眾的參與度如何？

where the audience can actually go up to a certain point

你對於這種事有多感興趣？

and then decide, oh wait, I'm going to choose my own adventure.

像是觀眾可能在劇中某個點決定，

I'm going to run off with Fitz or I'm going to run off with --

喔，等等，我要選擇 有自己的冒險；

SR: Oh, the choose- your-own-adventure stories.

我要和費茲私奔，或我要和⋯⋯

I have a hard time with those,