and sometimes, as an eccentric, and dismissed as a Utopian dreamer.

有時 被當做一個怪人 被視為一個烏托邦式的夢想家 而被世人忽略

But in the end, no matter what they say

但不管如何 無論人們說什麼

he's Jacque Fresco, the creator and the mind behind The Venus Project

他是雅克·法斯科 維納斯計劃背後的智多星

a monumental work of several fields of knowledge

這是整合眾多知識領域的巨大成果

that unifies the concept, a new future for the human civilization.

為人類文明建立新的未來

Fresco's entire life is perhaps the definition of a second chance

法斯科的一切工作 也許是人類的第二個機會

a new opportunity for social progress

是社會進步的新機遇

in harmony with our planet and technology.

讓我們的地球與科技和諧共處

Mr. Fresco, thank you for being with us today. - Thanks for the privilege.

法斯科先生 感謝你今天與我們分享 - 我的榮幸

- Can you give us a brief description of what is The Venus Project?

- 你能不能簡要解釋一下 什麼是維納斯計劃?

- The Venus Project is an attempt to bring world peace

- 維納斯計劃旨在實現世界和平

and all the nations together.

團結所有的國家

If you don't want war, killing, most crimes

如果你不希望看到戰爭 殺戮 大規模的犯罪

you have to redesign the way society works.

你必須重新設計社會的運作方式

You have to declare all the earth's resources

你必須聲明地球上所有的資源

as the common heritage of all the world's people.

是世界上所有人的共同遺產傳承

Then, we have to remove the money system, which is basically corrupt.

然後 我們要消除基本上完全腐敗的金融貨幣體系

After that we have to gradually outgrow the need

之後 我們必須逐漸超越

for all the artificial boundaries that separate people.

人為邊界所產生的隔閡

So we have one world working cooperatively

我們會有一個協同合作的世界

toward preserving the environment and all life as we know it.

保護我們已知的環境和所有生命

- And what is the single most important aspect of this project?

- 這個計劃最重要的方面是什麼?

A Resource-Based Economy to declare all the resources

資源導向型經濟 宣告所有的資源

the common heritage of all the world's people.

都是世界上所有人的共同遺產傳承

- Can you explain the distinction between a money-based economy

- 你能解釋一下 貨幣導向型經濟

and a resource-based economy?

與資源導向型經濟之間的區別嗎?

- A money based economy produces incentive

- 貨幣導向型經濟產生激勵制度

but it also produces incentive for corruption

但它也產生了腐敗的動機

payoffs, paying off Senators

拿回扣 各大公司賄賂參議員

various corporations "buying" Senators.

拿回扣 各大公司賄賂參議員

It's never been a democracy.

從來沒有一個國家實現過真正的民主

We've never had a democracy; no nations have ever had it.

從來沒有真正的民主 任何國家都一樣

If you don't have equal purchasing power, you can't have a democracy.

沒有平等的購買力 就不可能實現真正的民主

- How does The Venus Project compare with communism?

- 維納斯計劃與共產主義如何區分?

Communism uses money. It has social stratification.

共產主義使用貨幣 存在社會階級

It has banks. It has armies and navies

存在銀行 陸軍 海軍

prisons and police. We don't have any of those.

監獄 警察 維納斯計劃沒有這些東西

- Now let's talk about society. In many of your lectures, you imply

- 現在讓我們來談談社會 在你的許多講座中

that we are conditioned to think in a certain way. Is that correct?

你談到了我們受限於特定的思考方式 對嗎?

- Well, if you were raised by the headhunters of the Amazon as a baby

- 是的 如果你從小成長在亞馬遜的一個獵頭部落

and you never saw anything else, you would be a headhunter.

而且你從未見過其他的事情 你將會成長為一個獵頭人

If you were raised in Nazi Germany, where all you see is

如果你在納粹德國 你所看到的皆是

"Heil Hitler, Deutschland über alles!"

"希特勒萬歲 德意志高於一切!"

You'd be a German. So, I think all people

你會變成一名納粹分子 因此我認為所有人

are perfectly well adjusted where they're coming from.

確實都要去適應自己的環境

There is no such thing as good or bad people.

沒有好人或壞人之別

You're taught to hate certain people.

你被教導去憎恨一些人

But where they're coming from is normal.

但是 對他們的地區而言 他們是正常的

If you're brought up in the South, uneducated region

如果你成長在美國南方 沒有受過教育的地區

you might become a member of the Klu Klux Klan.

你可能成為三K黨成員

You speak with a Southern accent. Where do you get that from?

你說話會帶點南方口音 口音是從哪裡來的?

The environment. Where do you get:

答案:生活環境

"I'm gon' get me a nigga, and I'm gon' kick his ass!"?

你可能會說:"我要揍死那個黑鬼 踹他的屁股!"

You get that from the environment. It's not that people are good or bad.

這是從特定環境學來的 這並不能說明他們是好人 或是壞人

They are raised in an aberrated, or twisted environment.

因為他們是在畸形 扭曲的社會環境中長大的

- Do you feel that we live in a world of damaged communications

- 你覺得我們生活的世界中溝通不良

that sometimes restrict the language and expression of emotions

有時侯我們的語言 情感表達

as well as thinking. Is that correct? -Yes.

思想被限制了 對嗎? - 是的

Today, our language is hundreds of years old.

現今我們的語言歷史已有數百年了

That makes it extremely difficult to talk to one another.

這使得不同語言之間 難以真正互相交流

We talk at each other. That means

我們溝通不良

sometimes a person will say "Have a nice weekend!"

比如說:"祝你週末愉快!"

Why don't they say "Have a nice life? " Why just a weekend?

他們為什麼不說:"祝你生命愉快?" 為什麼只是一個週末?

Because our language is so old, it's automatic and has no meaning.

因為我們的語言是如此古老 呆板 沒有任何實質意義

There has to be a language that's not subject to interpretation.

必須要用一種不受主觀詮釋影響的語言

When you read the Bible, you say "Jesus meant this...," and he says

當你讀"聖經" 你說"耶穌是這意思..." 他說:

"No, he meant that," and another person... "He meant this."

"不 耶穌是那意思..." 另一個人說:"耶穌其實是這意思..."

So you have the Lutheran, the Seventh Day Adventist

因為對聖經有不同的解釋

because it's subject to interpretation.

所以會出現路德教 安息日等等分支

A language that is not subject to interpretation

而不受主觀詮釋的語言

mathematics, engineering, chemistry

如數學 工程 化學

physics, structural engineering...n ot subject to interpretation.

物理 結構工程... 則不受主觀詮釋的影響

You couldn't build a bridge if one engineer says:

如果一個人這麼說 另一個人那麼說

"I think he meant this. " The other says, "No, he meant that..."

這類的爭執是無法建立起一座橋樑的

It's possible to develop a language, not subject to interpretation.

開發一種不需要解釋的語言 是十分必要

- And how do you feel about the term 'democracy'?

- 你是怎麼看待"民主"?

- Democracy is a 'con game'. It's a word invented to placate people

- 民主是一個"騙局" 是一個用來唬弄群眾的詞彙

to make them accept a given institution.

以使他們接受一個給定的機構

All institutions sing "We are free!"

所有機構都宣稱:"我們都是自由的!"

The minute you hear, 'freedom and democracy', watch out!

當你聽到"自由和民主"的那一刻 小心!

Because in a truly free nation

因為在一個真正自由的國家

no one has to tell you you're free.

沒有必要告訴你 你是自由的

- I heard that you said that as powerful systems start to collapse

- 我聽你說過 當強大的社會系統開始崩潰

they tend to defend themselves with fascism

它們往往會用法西斯主義捍衛自己

in order to defend the 'status quo'.

為了維持"現狀"

Is that the situation that we live right now?

這是我們生活的現狀嗎?

- Well, this system right now is moving toward fascism.

- 對 現在這個系統正在走向法西斯主義

cutting back on the freedoms, what little freedoms we had.

削減我們僅有的一點自由

We never had complete freedom

我們從來沒有完全的自由

because the word 'freedom' has no meaning.

因為"自由"一詞已經沒有任何意義

When an Arab comes to this country with 10 wives

當一個阿拉伯人帶著十個妻子來到美國

they say you can only come in with one. So don't use the word freedom.

他們說 你只能有一個妻子而已 所以不要用"自由"這個詞

Say, there's a certain range of behavior we permit in this society

也就是 這個社會只允許我們在一定範圍內的行為自由

and this is what it is. Don't use the word 'freedom'!

這就是原因 不要使用"自由"這個詞!

- How do you feel about the recent economic crisis in the United States

- 你如何看待美國最近的經濟危機

and the global recession? Is that a lesson to be learned?

以及全球經濟衰退? 是否應吸取一些教訓?

- No, because it takes a recession, loss of job

- 不是的 因為經濟原本就有一個衰退的情況 比如失業

and loss of respect for your elected leaders.

對領導人喪失信任

When that happens, you get social change.

當發生這種情況 你會想到社會變革

Social change cannot come about due to intellect.

紙上談兵對社會變革 並無實際益處

It comes about by people suffering;

改變的動力來自遭受苦難的人民

and the more people that are laid off, the more they lose respect

來自越發不受現有政府所尊重的失業者

for an existing government, they will seek another direction.

這些人會尋找另一個方向

If there are too many people seeking a new direction

如果有太多人想尋求新的方向

then the existing government calls upon the military and police

那麼現有的政府會使用軍隊和警察

to manage society. That's called fascism.

來管理社會 這就是所謂的法西斯主義

- Now let's talk about war and technology. In 1961

- 現在 讓我們談論戰爭和科技 1961年

President Eisenhower advised against the military complex.

艾森豪總統表示反對軍火工業

Is this a prophecy to be taken care right now, at this point in time?

這是一個關於現今時代的預言嗎?

- Well, I would say that he didn't push it enough

- 嗯 我認為他的觀點還不夠深入

He should have explained it from many points of view.

他應該用更多觀點去解釋

Just saying "Beware of the industrial-military complex" is not enough

只是說"提防軍火工業"是不夠的

because people don't know what that means exactly.

因為人們不知道這到底意味著什麼

- Yes, but we have seen the images of the Twin Towers

- 是的 但我們看到了雙子塔

being collapsed to the ground on 9-11.

在9·11事件中倒塌

We also have seen the bombs going into the ground

我們也看到了炸彈埋在

of these Middle Eastern Countries, like Afganistan and Iraq.

如阿富汗和伊拉克等中東國家

How do you feel about this, and what's your perception of the future

你覺得這些意味著什麼 以及你對未來的看法是什麼

in the war? - Each system wants to perpetuate itself.

是戰爭嗎? - 每個體系都希望讓自己持續下去

We don't go to another country to bring democracy.

我們不是去給另一個國家帶來"民主"

We go there for their resources: oil, metals, cheap labor.

而是為了他們的資源:石油 金屬 廉價勞動力

We don't go there to bring democracy. We took this land from the Indians.

我們沒有去那裡帶來民主 我們從印第安人手中奪取這片土地

We stole it. After we took the land

或是搶奪 之後 我們在墨西哥手中

we took New Mexico from Mexico.

奪取新墨西哥洲

Then we took California from Spain.

接著在西班牙手中奪取加利福尼亞洲

After we stole all the land we need, we put up the sign:

我們掠奪了所需要的土地後 我們提出的口號是:

"Thou shalt not steal."

"不可掠奪"

All nations are corrupt. All of them.

所有國家都淪為腐敗 無一例外

Not one nation

沒有一個國家

knows enough about ecology to handle the problems.

有足夠的認知 去處理好生態問題

All politicians are basically ignorant men.

所有的政客基本上都是無知的人

All of them. All the way back in history. Our problems are not political.

無一例外 重複著過往歷史的問題 我們的問題在一百年前

They were good a hundred years ago, but today they are technical:

或許還能依靠政治解決 但現今的問題得依靠科技解決:

safe transportation, production of an abundance

運輸安全 生產豐足

making things available for people without the use of money.

提供足夠的東西給人們 而無需使用金錢

As long as money exists, you are going to have corruption

只要存在金錢 必將產生腐敗

no matter how many treaties you sign, no matter how many laws you make.

無論簽訂了多少條約 不管制訂了多少法律

90% of man-made laws are irrelevant.

90％的人為法律是毫不相干的

It isn't laws that we need.

我們確實不是需要法律

People need access to the necessities of life;

人們需要獲得生活必需品

when that's arranged, they don't steal.

得到充分安排後 他們不會再去偷竊

- Some people say that always, always come back: ambition, violence

有人會說:野心 暴力 仇恨 這些是避免不了的

hatred. What do you think about that? - There is no such thing

你對此如何看待? - 沒有所謂的"人性"

as human nature. Otherwise, we'd still be living in caves

- 沒有所謂的"人性" 否則 如果"人性"沒有被改變

if human nature couldn't be changed. It's learned.

我們仍會住在山洞裡 這些都是習得的

When your mother says "You're a Lutheran.

當你的母親說:"你是一個路德教信徒

You don't play with that little Catholic boy."

你不能和那個天主教小男孩玩"

So, parents indoctrinate their children.

因此 家長把這些觀點灌輸給了孩子

In the future, parents will be educated in how to raise children.

在未來 家長會被教導如何去撫養孩子

You have to raise children, because children can learn

你需要引導孩子 因為孩子們可以學到任何事情

anything at all. They can learn geology, physics, chemistry.

他們可以去學習地質 物理 化學

But we give them garbage! We have Mickey Mouse Clubs in America.

但我們卻教給他們一些垃圾! 我們在美國有米老鼠俱樂部

How shameful! We have children, and we read to them

多麼令人羞恥! 我們給孩子們灌輸

'Dickey Dare and his sheep. On the way he met a cow.'

"迪基戴爾和他的羊 在路上遇到一頭牛"(童歌歌詞)

"Moo moo", said the cow. That's no way to raise children.

牛在說"哞哞"... (童歌歌詞) 這不是撫養孩子的方法

- Do you know? They won't listen to you.

- 你知道嗎? 大多數的人們不會聽你的

So, why persist on these ideals?

那麼 為什麼要堅持這些想法呢?

- Well, because they are brought up not to. They're brought up to:

- 呃 他們的思維已經固化了 他們從小被教導:

"What's the greatest country in the world? The USA!"

"世界上最偉大的國家? 美國!"

"What's the most inventive country in the world? The USA."

"世界上最具創意的國家呢? 美國!"

But they don't tell us where the printing press came from

但老師們並沒有告訴我們 印刷術來自哪裡

that all the foreigners that came to this country

外來移民來到了美國

brought with them language, religion, ideas, technology...

他們帶來了語言 宗教 思想 技術等等

So we owe so much... For example, if you don't know this

因此 我們虧欠太多了... 例如一個簡單的例子 如果你沒聽過的話

an Arab, named Al-Jabr, gave us algebra.

一個阿拉伯人命名了"Al-Jabr" 才有後來的代數(algebra)

The great museum in Egypt, years ago

幾千年前埃及的亞歷山大博物館

had a library of world knowledge.

世界知識寶庫

So we owe so much to so many nations.

因此 我們欠了那麼多國家

The separation of nations is dangerous, wrong

把國家區別看待是很危險的 錯誤的

and the failure of nations to work together, that's what war is.

世界大同將因此失敗 從而導致戰爭

War is a supreme failure of bridging the difference

國家之間處理歧見時 戰爭是最大的敗筆

between nations. There'll be no military in the future.

在未來將沒有軍事

There'll be people who will learn.

人們將要學習維護和平

See, soldiers are killing machines. You teach them to kill.

士兵們是殺人機器 你教他們殺人

And the other nation teaches its soldiers to kill.

其它國家也一樣

What I would do is teach soldiers

而我會做的是教育士兵

send them back to school free of charge

免費送他們回學校

to learn to become problem solvers.

認真地去學習如何解決問題

How do you bridge the difference between Saudi Arabia and this country?

你如何處理沙烏地阿拉伯和美國之間的差異?

How do you bridge the difference between Venezuela

你如何處理與委內瑞拉

and another country? That's what's needed.

以及其它國家之間的差異? 這才是我們需要做的

Science applied to government.

將科學應用於政府上

So far we have opinions from

到目前為止 我們從政客口中

politicians that know nothing about ecology, safety, engineering

得到諸多意見 但他們卻不熟悉生態 安全 工程

increasing the agricultural yield. They are totally incapable.

增加農業產量等領域 他們完全不能勝任這些工作

And the future will look back, the children of the future will say:

未來的孩子會回顧這段歷史並問道:

"Couldn't you see that the money system had people paid off?"

"你看不到貨幣體系讓人們付出慘痛代價了嗎?"

"Couldn't you see, wasn't it obvious to you?"

"這不是明顯地給你看了嗎?"

You say "Well, no, we were brought up in it. We didn't know the difference."

你答道:"哦 不 我們是從中長大的 我們不瞭解其中的差異"

Kids will not understand that in the future.

未來的孩子將對此困惑不已

- Mr Fresco, I want to thank you for your time.

- 法斯科先生 感謝你抽時間到這裡

I'm sure our viewers enjoyed our conversation

我敢肯定 觀眾們喜歡我們的談話

as much as I did. Thank you. - Thank you for the privilege.

就像我一樣 謝謝你 - 這是我的榮幸