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  • MICHAEL BIERUT: Thank you so much for having me here.

  • I'm sort of just warming you up for Salman Rushdie, I suppose.

  • I'm less significant in every possible way.

  • But we have a nice, intimate the little space to talk.

  • I'm a graphic designer.

  • That's my name, my Twitter thing.

  • That's me on Easter Sunday, 1969, in suburban Cleveland,

  • Ohio, which is where I grew up.

  • That's my mom and dad, obviously,

  • and those are my younger brothers,

  • who are fraternal twins.

  • Their names are Ronald and Donald.

  • They have rhyming names, OK?

  • That explains everything you need

  • to know about what it was like to grow up

  • in suburban Cleveland in the '60s.

  • My mom doesn't understand why that's

  • funny to give kids-- they're twins.

  • Was I supposed to give them completely unrelated names?

  • It's a naming problem.

  • At a very early age, I realized I wanted

  • to be a graphic designer.

  • I was good at art, but art always seemed kind of hermetic

  • to me.

  • Artists went off to, as I imagined,

  • they went, like to garrets or studios or closed rooms,

  • then just would do paintings and things,

  • and then sometimes would die.

  • Then their paintings would be discovered.

  • Sometimes the paintings would be sold in their lifetime.

  • But it just seemed like coming up

  • with ideas for paintings just seemed really hard.

  • When I realized there was this other thing called

  • graphic design that, in effect, was being creative as a means

  • to another end, I thought it was really exciting.

  • And I can still remember the first time

  • I saw a piece of graphic design that really excited me.

  • I was probably maybe eight or nine years old.

  • I was being driven by my dad to get a haircut.

  • We were stopped at a traffic light.

  • And my dad looked over to the passenger side of the car where

  • I was sitting and looked out the window,

  • and saw a piece of industrial equipment

  • called a forklift truck.

  • Do they have those here?

  • They do that, right?

  • And he said, oh look, that's really clever.

  • And I looked at the truck, and I said, what?

  • He said, the way they wrote the name of the truck.

  • And on the side of the truck it said Clark.

  • And I said, why?

  • And he said, well, look.

  • It does what the truck does.

  • And so he said, look how the L is lifting up the A.

  • And I was like, oh my god.

  • Is this happening all over the place?

  • Are these things everywhere?

  • And so at that moment, I sort realized

  • that something about that-- it was like art,

  • it was like creativity, but it had

  • nothing to do with painting a bowl of fruit, like Cezanne,

  • or some women with their noses sideways, like Picasso, or just

  • splattering paint like Jackson Pollock.

  • This is like, our name is Clark.

  • We make forklift trucks.

  • What do you got?

  • It just occurred to me.

  • The L can lift up the A.

  • So I just thought, if I could do that for the rest my life,

  • I'd be happy.

  • And I have, and I am.

  • So I'm with you today.

  • Here I am at Google.

  • Thank you.

  • So I'm just going to show you one project that I worked on.

  • And you guys recently changed your logo, which

  • I like very much, by the way.

  • I was really early out of the box in Twitter

  • and said something like, this is really good.

  • And it was one of the few really impulsive things

  • I've ever done on Twitter.

  • And then journalists started calling me up

  • to get me to weigh in publicly about the logo.

  • But I've designed logos that other people of weighed in

  • publicly on.

  • And I'm sort of-- I don't think everyone should be weighing

  • in publicly about logos.

  • And a lot of times I sort of think if-- back in the '60s,

  • there was a little private moment between me and my dad.

  • Very private.

  • If my dad was drinking a beer with our next door neighbor,

  • and he had brought up that logo with another adult,

  • that guy would have thought he was insane.

  • You know what I really like?

  • What do you like, Lenny?

  • That logo for Clark Forklift Trucks.

  • Ever seen it?

  • Like my next door neighbor would be like, what the fuck?

  • What?

  • So people didn't talk about logos in these days.

  • They talk about them all the time now, don't they?

  • I mean, you put out a logo and all

  • of a sudden it's like people are analyzing it.

  • I don't know if you read "The New Yorker" over here.

  • But some lady in "The New Yorker"

  • wrote this nostalgic poem about how beautiful the old Google

  • logo was, which personally, I just

  • thought that was preposterous.

  • She was saying, oh, the serifs were

  • referring to centuries of literary tradition,

  • and now it's all been sanded away.

  • I just think the way that all the O's line

  • up on in the search thing is just-- it's all very nice.

  • So at any rate, I'm going to going to show you something

  • that I worked on.

  • And it's something that actually came out very well,

  • but had false starts along the way.

  • So for the first time anywhere, I'm

  • showing the first thing that we proposed, which was rejected.

  • I've never shown this before.

  • The thing that was accepted is, I think, still on view

  • as part of Designs of the Year at the Design Museum

  • here in London.

  • But the rejected thing has never been shown

  • publicly outside of the client.

  • So here you go.

  • Oh, this is for this book.

  • And so what I really find interesting

  • is how design is about solving problems and doing things.

  • And so it's art or creativity for a purpose, right?

  • So the purpose has to do with how you do something.

  • And when I'm working with a client,

  • the first thing I try to do is figure out

  • what they're trying to solve and how to solve it, basically.

  • OK.

  • So this was actually the end, about designing two dozen logos

  • at the same time.

  • So the client is the MIT Media Lab.

  • You guys know what that is?

  • It's Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

  • In 1985, or 19-- I'm trying to do the math here.

  • It was the 20th anniversary in 1910,

  • so 1990-- I thought it was 1985--

  • celebrated their anniversary.

  • And they had been started at MIT to sort of explore

  • where media and technology could all meet up.

  • It's actually a couple of buildings

  • that house a bunch of small research

  • groups, two dozen little research groups that

  • more or less have free rein to just explore

  • whatever they want.

  • On the occasion of the anniversary,

  • this wonderful new identity system

  • was created by a guy who was then at the Media Lab

  • named Richard Tay.

  • Then he came to Google.

  • I think he might still be at Google in California.

  • He's a great, great, great designer.

  • And if you don't know what that looked like,

  • this is what it was.

  • And the trick with this was, that thing

  • you see there was just one permutation of the logo.

  • He had written an algorithm or something,

  • or someone wrote some algorithm.

  • You guys all know what algorithms are.

  • I use that word a lot.

  • I really don't know what it means.

  • I went to art school so I didn't have

  • to take anything beyond Algebra II in high school.

  • I apologize.

  • You can kick me out now if you want.

  • So within that system, there's a bunch of squares.

  • And then those squares have colors

  • that extrude off the squares.

  • And then it makes 40,000, supposedly, different versions

  • of that thing, OK?

  • So it's really-- I thought was really cool.

  • I saw this thing and I was like, that's really, really cool.

  • I wish I'd done that.

  • To my surprise, the founder of the lab,

  • Nicholas Negroponte, called me up and said, hey,

  • could you design a logo for the Media Lab?

  • And I said, but you have a logo.

  • He said, what do you mean?

  • I said, that thing that Richard Tay did with the 40,000

  • different versions.

  • He said, oh, you know, that's not really a logo.

  • That was a thing for the anniversary.

  • We want a logo logo.

  • And I wasn't sure what he even meant by that.

  • So I went up to Cambridge, Massachusetts,

  • where MIT is, where the Media Lab is, and we

  • had a series of meetings.

  • And I finally figured out what he was talking about.

  • I met with some other people up there.

  • And yet I sort of really-- I actually

  • met with Richard and [? Rune, ?] another designer.

  • The two of them had actually done that system.

  • And I said look, they've asked me to mess with this thing

  • and I don't want to mess with it.

  • So give me some advice.

  • So I met with them to understand what they were doing

  • and to see what the whole system was.

  • So I'm just going to show you the presentation I did

  • for the first time we did it.

  • This is the thing I've never shown anyone before.

  • OK.

  • So the Media Lab actually has a history

  • based on the architecture of the original building, which

  • is by IM Pei.

  • And then in the IM Pei building, there

  • was a couple of art installations

  • that a designer named Jacqueline Casey riffed on.

  • See all these little stripey things?

  • So she created this identity that had little stripey things,

  • see?

  • So that was her idea.

  • So everyone's business card had a different bunch

  • of stripes on them.

  • So this idea of everything kind of being the same but different

  • was already there right back at the very beginning.

  • It was the 25th anniversary, not the 20th.

  • The 25th anniversary, Richard and his team

  • did something based on a new building

  • that the Japanese architect Maki did for them

  • that was-- in addition to the Pei building, the IM Pei

  • building.

  • And this shows a little bit of that in action,

  • if you can see that.

  • So the good qualities of that are that it sort of extends

  • that original identity in a way that I thought was thoughtful.

  • It's a metaphor for the new building,

  • because the building had atriums,

  • and it sort of did stuff like that.

  • And the last one, it sort of was just

  • a demonstration of how ingenious and innovative and imaginative

  • the MIT Media Lab was.

  • However, the shortcomings were-- as I finally

  • got them figured out-- it sort of is

  • very-- what's the word for it?

  • It's a look at me sort of logo.

  • It kind of like demands attention.

  • And part of the issue they have is that all

  • these other-- they have all these other things going

  • on there that like to be the protagonist as well.

  • So here's this other thing that really

  • is supposed to just be kind of signing off or endorsing

  • those things, but it's very active and clever for that.

  • And then it has this entropic sort of thing.

  • And entropy is another thing I'm not sure I fully understand.

  • But as I understand it, it has do with the general dissipation

  • of energy over time.

  • So those 40,000 different versions, I actually

  • talked to the person who was head of marketing.

  • I said, well, how do you decide which of the 40,000

  • different versions to use?

  • If someone says, send me your logo, what do you send them?

  • She said, oh, I just send the same one over and over again.

  • So they sort of-- it's tiring to manage 40,000 different logos.

  • And I said, do people think, well,

  • this logo is better for this?

  • No.

  • The thing that makes them great, the fact

  • that they're all sort of the same and equal,

  • actually makes them not work well

  • to distinguish meaningfully any of the activities of the lab.

  • And then also, it's really hard to look at that thing,

  • particularly when it's changing all the time, and think,

  • oh, when you see that, think MIT Media Lab.

  • So it needs a name with it.

  • So we said we would figure out a way

  • to do something that recognized the legacy of the lab,

  • make it a little bit stronger and louder,

  • and come up with a way that would let

  • it work with everything else.

  • So remember this grid.

  • This is the grid that underlies Richard Tay's system.

  • We started with that grid.

  • And then we decided we would build this alphabet from that.

  • So every one of these letters, M-I-T- M-E-A-D-I-A-L-A-B,

  • are all based on that basic configuration.

  • So I thought, this is nice.

  • We're sort of paying a little homage to the 25th anniversary

  • thing.

  • And then you get something like that on one line, or like that.

  • Now look carefully at that, because this

  • is-- when we went up to show this to Nicholas Negroponte

  • the first time, he said, oh, you almost got it.

  • And I'm like, what?

  • And he said, oh, this is all you have to do.

  • So I'll show you in a second.

  • He said, just take away those two things.

  • Then it's a perfect square.

  • And I said, but-- and he said, no, it still

  • says MIT Media Lab.

  • It's like MIT Media Lab.

  • So this is why he's the head of the Media Lab,

  • or the founder of the Media Lab, and I'm

  • just a vendor, basically.

  • So it almost works, I think.

  • And you can sort of make it-- so but this

  • is the thing I liked the best.

  • You kind of could take that thing,

  • and then superimpose the other thing on it,

  • and it sort of seemed to kind of have

  • the same basic underlying DNA.

  • I liked that part of it.

  • So then we did a bunch of little animations to show, really,

  • it's there, right?

  • Or maybe you prefer this one, MIT Media Lab or something.

  • Or-- cute.

  • Or-- this is everyone's favorite.

  • Voila.

  • OK.

  • So then from those eight letters,

  • it's really easy to extrapolate the whole alphabet.

  • And so then we said, you can do everything in that alphabet,

  • and hurray.

  • And so see how it says Mediated Matter?

  • That's one of those two dozen research groups

  • they have there.

  • And Molecular Machines, Opera of the Future, Social Computing,

  • Synthetic Neurobiology , et cetera, et cetera,

  • all written in the same typeface.

  • And stationery, business cards.

  • You can have a square business card.

  • As long as you're not going to be practical,

  • why not have a square business card?

  • Custom roll tape, posters, presentation slides.

  • So these are just quick sketches we had

  • done to kind of sell this idea.

  • And you see it becomes like a pattern in the background.

  • For some reason, I've got a designer who just-- I've never

  • seen him wearing cufflinks, but I think he just fantasizes

  • this world of important people who are always

  • like mafiosa, kind of like wearing cufflinks that

  • needs logos on them.

  • And then he has that piece of base art

  • and he knows how to Photoshop on it, I think.

  • That lady with the button.

  • So that was that, right?

  • OK.

  • So communicates the name, flexible and neutral,

  • builds on the current symbol.

  • But Nicholas and his is guys couldn't-- they presented this.

  • I was never there for the presentations.

  • He said, OK, it's up to us to kind of convince

  • all our colleagues, the faculty and the staff and everyone,

  • and get excited about this.

  • And he couldn't put it over.

  • They wouldn't accept it as the right solution.

  • I actually think the thing that he

  • saw in it, that crazy thing where the 11 became nine, just

  • somehow is just one of those cases where it's a square peg,

  • and the hole is almost square, but not quite.

  • And you just think, give me another hammer, and you go,

  • bang!

  • And it's still-- all you guys have been in that situation,

  • I assume.

  • And sooner or later you realize that it just

  • isn't going to work.

  • And they're a wonderful client.

  • They're just so great to work with.

  • They're so trusting and supportive.

  • So they said, you know, let us think about this for a while.

  • We're just going to take a pause.

  • Then about a year later, they called me back

  • and they said, OK.

  • We want to try again.

  • And we want to do something really clear and simple.

  • Forget about anything that came before.

  • What would you do if you could do anything you wanted?

  • To And I actually dread that question.

  • You know, I became a graphic designer, remember,

  • specifically because I don't want to do anything.

  • I want people to come to me and say, I have a forklift truck.

  • Our name is Clark.

  • What do you got?

  • And I say C-L-A, got it!

  • But if they say, we don't have anything.

  • We have nothing.

  • What do you got?

  • I'm like, what do you mean, what do you got?

  • What do you got?

  • So they said, go for it.

  • What do you have?

  • So we came up with this thing instead.

  • So this was basically what we presented the second time.

  • So there's something really interesting about MIT

  • in that it has two Titanic figures

  • in American graphic design, at least,

  • this lady Jacqueline Casey and this lady Muriel Cooper.

  • Muriel Cooper, along with Nicholas,

  • was one of the co-founders of Media Lab.

  • Jacqueline Casey was the lead graphic designer for decades.

  • Really remarkable.

  • Two women in a over-the-top, high tech,

  • quintessential American east coast high tech environment.

  • And they basically defined the way

  • that MIT looked for decades, through the '60s and '70s,

  • into the '80s.

  • Interestingly enough-- usually I ask,

  • are there any graphic designers here, or people

  • who know about design at all?

  • Thank you.

  • So name some typefaces, et cetera.

  • I'm not going to get too deep into that.

  • But Jackie Casey, as much as anyone else,

  • introduced Helvetica to the United States.

  • Other people get the credit for it.

  • She actually played a big role in it.

  • Here's some of the posters she was doing back

  • in the '60s and '70s.

  • Very influenced by European design.

  • These are really visionary, cool things.

  • Muriel Cooper, this is early stuff

  • she did about manipulating type and data in 3D space,

  • that she really made the reputation of her students

  • and the early days of the Media Lab based on.

  • And so they're both brilliant, brilliant designers.

  • And note that thing there.

  • That was by Muriel Cooper.

  • She did that in the early '60s.

  • If you don't know it, I bet it's in here somewhere.

  • That's the mark for MIT Press.

  • She did that, I think, in '62, I believe.

  • And imagine how hard this was to sell in '62.

  • I will now explain to you why this says MIT Press.

  • M-I-T-P. But it also looks like books on a shelf.

  • Also, it looks kind of digital in some vague way.

  • And there are sketches showing, OK, I'll

  • put a dot there, cross that, close that up.

  • Are you happy now?

  • But luckily she talked them into doing something abstract.

  • And this thing has been around now since '62.

  • And they said, we want something like that.

  • Not 40,000 versions, not something that

  • has to be blah, blah, blah.

  • We want something that's that simple, OK?

  • OK.

  • Easy.

  • Now I asked what you wanted.

  • Now they tell me what they wanted.

  • Thanks, guys.

  • So first we sort of looked at the way

  • you could write the name.

  • The full name, abbreviated.

  • Then we looked at-- when we you this sort

  • of work, you generate lots of stuff like this.

  • I think of some of these are interestingly bad.

  • Some of them are just bad.

  • Some of them are boringly bad or predictably bad.

  • I don't know, they're really problematic.

  • We did a lot of those things.

  • Then finally, almost guiltily, I said,

  • remember that seven by seven grid we had?

  • Maybe there's something we could do with that.

  • So we thought, OK, if we sort of combined a letter

  • for-- like M and L with the words MIT Media Lab-- maybe we

  • could start with that thing.

  • Remember that we were told not to worry about that thing

  • any more, but I was still obsessed with it.

  • Underneath it, remember is this 49-unit grid, seven by seven.

  • So if you-- remember, we built all these letters off it

  • before.

  • All's we need now are two letters, an M and an L. There's

  • the M, there's the L. Makes an overall kind of L for lab,

  • which is what they call it for sure.

  • Put MIT Media Lab next to it.

  • So that seemed interesting enough.

  • And then I remember-- I have a young man working for me named

  • Aron Fay who's really great.

  • And I'd like to take full credit for everything

  • you see right now at the Design Museum,

  • and the Designs of the Year exhibition.

  • I vaguely remember saying, you know,

  • it would be cool if we used the same system to do logos

  • for all the research groups at the Media Lab.

  • And it was Friday.

  • And I said, have a nice weekend.

  • Then I walked out.

  • And I came in on Monday.

  • Here's those groups.

  • And Aaron said, I think I got something.

  • And what he had was a logo for each of them,

  • built on the same scheme.

  • See, there's an A and a C for Affective Computing,

  • a B for Biomechanics, CC, Camera Culture, CP, Changing Places,

  • Civic Media, Design Fiction, Fluid Interfaces, all the way

  • through.

  • And what was cool about this was they all sort of went together.

  • But it was like a bunch of different logos.

  • They all go together like the previous schemes.

  • But this time, each of those groups

  • can grab one of these things and sort of

  • think they've got it made.

  • And not only that, but there are lots of different ways,

  • once you've established the rule set

  • for how you make these, the underlying grid,

  • you can rotate the things.

  • Each of these could be a different version, actually.

  • So then we did this little animation for it.

  • [MUSIC PLAYING]

  • Voila.

  • So OK.

  • So that one worked.

  • They liked that one.

  • Thank you.

  • The reason it worked was that I think

  • it struck a balance between a central theme

  • and the variations.

  • The variations were sufficient to help each of those research

  • groups engender a sense of esprit de corps,

  • but the central theme helped them feel unified that they're

  • all about one big idea, which is the innovation that

  • is enabled by the environment created by the Media Lab

  • overall.

  • And what was really cool about it--

  • and I think what people miss when they focus on G-O-O-G-L-E,

  • and the way it's written in the new logo,

  • is that that actually is really an extension and an embodiment

  • of the overall design language, that material design language

  • that you guys have been developing.

  • And I think it all fits together.

  • And I think when this sort of thing

  • works the best-- I don't know if Clark Forklift Trucks has

  • a whole design language that goes with that logo--

  • but I think you guys definitely have an integrated design

  • language that can help people answer all kinds of questions,

  • not just where do I put the logo,

  • or what does it look like, but how do I solve this?

  • How do I design this little part of a bigger product?

  • How does that product fit in with something else?

  • I think good design can tell you how things go together

  • and give you a characteristic way to make everything appear.

  • So what was really nice about this,

  • it gave us this kind of like coherent design language.

  • I remember when it was getting ready to launch,

  • people said-- we did an alphabet with it, too.

  • We kind like updated that old alphabet, did an icon system.

  • So this is the Maki building.

  • See, there's an M on that elevator,

  • an L on that elevator.

  • When the elevators are on the same floor

  • it sort of makes the logo.

  • We redid the signage in their buildings.

  • So then you can take the ingredients of the logo

  • and upend it to kind of have an arrow pointing up.

  • It's very low tech.

  • It's like a 49-bit logo, in a way.

  • But I sort of thought, the only thing that's

  • timeless-- this is sort of the equivalent of doing a cube out

  • of marble as a sculpture.

  • It's not going to change.

  • It's going to endure.

  • It can't be made-- it's not going

  • to look any more old fashioned than it looks today, because it

  • already looks old fashioned.

  • And so they have a lot of screen-based communications.

  • It works lovely as a pattern.

  • When different labs share the same area,

  • they can put a sign like that.

  • And then if you ever go-- anyone ever been there?

  • If you go there, they sort of-- it's open plan,

  • and they have lots of tours coming through.

  • And the groups will put up a sign to say who they are

  • and what they do.

  • Lots of media stuff like this.

  • Kind of simple way of, like, being inside the logo,

  • if you work there.

  • Boulders, floor plans, [INAUDIBLE], posters.

  • Oh, and then when two groups collaborate on something,

  • they can superimpose their things

  • and get some new hybrid thing.

  • They launched the new identity at an event

  • they had there for their community

  • that they titled "Deploy," partly,

  • I think, in honor of the new logo,

  • but because of other things as well.

  • And so you see it says D-E-P-L-O-Y on the back there.

  • And so they did a whole bunch of stuff with that.

  • All these posters basically say "Deploy"

  • in different ways using the same language.

  • Black and white.

  • Tote bag carried by a gal wearing

  • a black and white striped shirt in front of a black brick wall.

  • That's how to do it.

  • Little button.

  • Some smaller buttons.

  • This is not toilet paper.

  • It's packing tape they actually made, crumpled up.

  • We just made that up.

  • I don't think it's physically possible to have--

  • but they could.

  • And made with a little bit of love, too.

  • So perfect timing.

  • Thank you.

  • It's time for questions now, if you want.

  • [APPLAUSE]

  • MALE SPEAKER: Perfect.

  • So we have at least 10, 15 minutes for questions

  • if there are any questions.

  • You have to shout out nice and loud,

  • and Michael can repeat it.

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: I will.

  • I will.

  • Yes.

  • AUDIENCE: Do you value rejection in the creative process?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: Do I value it?

  • I love it.

  • I really, really love it.

  • I'm so glad you asked that question.

  • OK.

  • So when I'm presenting something,

  • the thing that really scares me, the thing I really dread--

  • and I hate it when it's happening--

  • is, you see how this is-- I'm not putting

  • this on just for you guys.

  • This is sort of how I get when I'm presenting design work.

  • I get sort of progressively more animated and excited

  • because I'm excited about it.

  • I'm not trying to sell.

  • I just really like--like I said, I like what I do.

  • And I'll be behaving like this, and the people I'm talking to

  • will sort of be like-- and then at the end, they'll say,

  • you know, well, you've certainly given us a lot to think about.

  • And then I remember the first time, the first couple

  • times I got really rejected.

  • And I remember going to one thing where, literally, it was

  • a much smaller group than this.

  • And I was about as far as I am from you.

  • And I was talking.

  • And I remember this was the old days,

  • and I think I just-- I didn't even have slides.

  • I was presenting with pieces of cardboard,

  • like Don Draper in "Mad Men."

  • I had boards, right?

  • And I probably had 20 boards with my designs on it.

  • And about the second one, everyone in the front row

  • started kind of doing body language, things like this.

  • And kind of like-- and then by the third one,

  • by the fourth one, they started, like,

  • literally-- I'm this far away.

  • Like you and your friend there would kind of go like--

  • And I had one of those weird out-of-body experiences,

  • where I'm still talking, I'm saying, and then for the logo,

  • we decided-- and as I'm talking, I'm thinking,

  • boy-- I had this other dialogue.

  • It's so odd the way I can hear my voice inside my head.

  • How is that?

  • Your brain is up here, and your mouth is there,

  • and you hear yourself talking.

  • And I was having this kind of like sense

  • of detachment from reality.

  • I was actually losing track-- then

  • I started just getting really focused on how many boards were

  • left, because I just thought, as long

  • as-- it was like Scheherazade, actually.

  • As long as I keep presenting, everything will be fine.

  • And then eventually I have to say, so what do you think?

  • So predictably, these guys hated it.

  • And I was young then, and I didn't know what to do with it.

  • Now when that happens, I stop on the third thing, and I say,

  • wait.

  • You guys really don't like this, do you?

  • Tell me why.

  • And I have to admit, some of the best meetings I've ever had

  • proceeded from that question.

  • And sometimes I'll be with some of my younger designers

  • on my team.

  • And someone will bring up some objection

  • to what we're showing.

  • And I think your natural impulse is

  • to rush to the defense of the thing you're showing,

  • the poor thing you're showing, which needs

  • to be defended at all costs.

  • And I don't do that anymore.

  • I just kind of like, give me more.

  • Give me more.

  • I mean, do you hate it because of the color?

  • Do you hate it because of the typeface?

  • Do you hate it because of the basic idea?

  • Do you hate me?

  • And I really will-- and if one of my designers

  • tries to defend the thing, I'll no, no, wait, wait, wait.

  • Go on.

  • And then I'll repeat it all back to them.

  • I'll just make sure I got it all.

  • And what's really interesting is it that every once in a while

  • I'll present to someone who just loves everything,

  • and they really do love everything.

  • But almost every time, someone has

  • some objection, or some reservation,

  • or some criticism, or something they just outright hate.

  • And I just find those things really much, much more

  • interesting than, oh, I love it.

  • It's so great.

  • Every once in awhile someone says, I love it, it's so great.

  • And that's interesting enough for me.

  • I mean, I'll take it.

  • But people rejecting you is so fascinating.

  • And in a way, the luckiest thing we had with this

  • was, that first idea was not right.

  • It really was not right, and it was correct

  • that it was rejected.

  • And in a way, if I have any regrets at all,

  • it's that I just played the whole thing through.

  • And had they accepted it, I would've said,

  • congratulations, enjoy your new graphic identity,

  • knowing that it wasn't quite right, actually.

  • So confessing right before you all,

  • if I had a shortcoming that I would do over myself,

  • I would've said, maybe you're right.

  • This isn't quite right.

  • I'm not sure it's going to do it.

  • So in a way, I don't reject myself enough, actually.

  • I guess I'm just so hungry to have other people reject me.

  • There's some kind of psychological component to that

  • that I'm not eager to explore right in front of you.

  • However, that couch awaits me, and maybe I'll

  • just lay down and free associate later.

  • Yeah.

  • There.

  • AUDIENCE: How do you separate objections

  • based on personal bias?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: So the question is,

  • how do separate objections based on personal bias

  • from ones that are based on rationales?

  • Well, sometimes I think that all objections

  • are based on personal bias, because particularly, there's

  • part of every-- almost every kind of design

  • expression, every product you guys design,

  • every decision that anyone making anything makes--

  • some of decisions are made because they are answering

  • a functional requirement.

  • And you can actually say, yes or no, this is right,

  • that's wrong.

  • We'll do this just because this works better than that.

  • But almost always, there's still some things left over

  • that someone has to decide.

  • And there is no right or wrong.

  • And people hate to call that taste.

  • People hate to call that style.

  • But I mean, it really is a dangerous thing,

  • and it really is taste.

  • And so when someone rejects something,

  • I sort of will assume it's some combination of all

  • those things.

  • I try not to have a conversation based on taste just

  • because it's so arbitrary.

  • So I'll try to ease us back into something that has more

  • to do with the objective world that we can all together

  • agree on.

  • You know, you like blue, but all your competitors

  • use blue, so if what you want is differentiation,

  • blue may not be the thing that gets you differentiated, right?

  • On the other hand, maybe you really

  • don't want differentiation.

  • Maybe you want parity with all your competitors,

  • you want to fit in.

  • And then people can have-- they're almost relieved

  • to have that discussion, because it makes a lot of people

  • nervous to talk about having an opinion about a color,

  • actually.

  • So they don't want to do that.

  • They want to talk about something

  • you can put on a spreadsheet.

  • So it's a complicated thing to work through.

  • And a lot of it is-- in the back of my head, sometimes,

  • it's like, you really don't care one way or the other

  • at the end.

  • Just let me do it my way, because I really do care.

  • And I think there's a lot of designers who lead with that.

  • And it sort of takes nerve and kind of arrogance.

  • And I'm not sure I have either of those things.

  • So I usually just kind of do with a patient,

  • kind of conversational one.

  • Yeah.

  • AUDIENCE: How do you maintain your artistic integrity when

  • a client is challenging it?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: OK.

  • So the question is, how do you maintain

  • your artistic integrity when you're

  • working with a client who might be challenging it?

  • There are cliches about people from the Midwest,

  • the Midwestern United States, like Ohio, where I'm from.

  • One of them is that we're very polite.

  • And I do think I'm really polite, and unconfrontational.

  • So I can count-- I don't think I've ever

  • had a meeting where I actually stormed out in a huff,

  • or even raised my voice.

  • I mean, I just don't do that, not at work.

  • I mean, like watching a sports event-- I mean, I just--

  • I'm very unconfrontational at work.

  • So this idea that-- and also, I have to admit,

  • I don't value my own artistic integrity

  • that highly at the end of the day.

  • I don't, actually.

  • I mean, someone's asked me to do a job for them.

  • And you know, say what you will.

  • But I put this deck together for you guys.

  • I just looked at it now.

  • But over in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

  • they look at this stuff all day, every day.

  • This is their thing.

  • This isn't my thing, this is their thing.

  • And as far as I'm concerned, it has nothing

  • to do that they're paying me.

  • It has to do with the fact that I've created a house for them

  • to live in.

  • And it doesn't matter if I think there's something really,

  • really fun about having stairs with no railing

  • because I think that looks really cool.

  • If my client has six-year-old twins,

  • they're going to fall off the stairs and kill themselves.

  • So it doesn't matter, my artistic integrity.

  • I have to hold my nose and say, OK, I

  • have to figure out a way to protect your kids

  • on those stairs, right?

  • So usually if there's-- artistic integrity doesn't come into it.

  • I do dislike people that are horrible

  • and mean, or are dumb, horrible, and mean.

  • If they're dumb and nice, sometimes that's OK.

  • And I actually like-- smart and mean I actually

  • don't mind that much.

  • It's dumb and mean that is just intolerable.

  • So again, there's a lot of people-- I mean, to me,

  • I just will quietly walk away from certain things

  • where I can kind of tell it's not going to go well.

  • It has much less to do about me as an artist,

  • and just more to do with, given that you're

  • awake X many hours a day, and you

  • spend this much of your wife working, how much of that time

  • do you want to spend really dealing

  • with unpleasant people who, for some reason,

  • have the energy to make you do things you don't want to do?

  • I mean, if you're lucky and you structure

  • your life and your business the right way, you can set it up

  • so you're in a position to avoid a lot of that

  • without hurting anyone's feelings.

  • I've never told anyone, you're a jerk, and I hate you,

  • and I don't want to work with you anymore.

  • I usually say, it's not you, it's me.

  • I'm sorry.

  • This isn't working, so if you don't mind-- so I do.

  • Yeah.

  • Sorry.

  • AUDIENCE: My question is about the relationship

  • between technology and visual identity.

  • Does it matter?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: So the question is-- correct

  • me if I'm saying this wrong-- but we're at a point

  • now where, potentially, an institution

  • or an organization's identity could

  • be adapted almost infinitely by not just its users,

  • but by its audiences, to work in different ways.

  • And is this a good idea?

  • Is this what the future holds for us?

  • I actually think the answer to both those things

  • is yes and yes.

  • I don't think it's-- sometimes a situation calls for something

  • which is unequivocally immalleable.

  • It's not going to change at all.

  • Other times, it's-- what I've gotten really interested

  • in lately is the idea that-- I've noticed that some

  • of the brands I admire the most, actually, have very little--

  • they've got a real kernel at the core.

  • But it's not that big, and it's not telling people

  • that much what to do.

  • We have this store over in the states called Target.

  • You guys-- OK, so Target's this inexpensive store

  • that has a reputation for from being hip and design conscious.

  • And one of the genius things about Target

  • is their name is Target.

  • And back in the late '60s, they went

  • to some really good designers and said, we need a logo.

  • And these great designers came back to them and said,

  • we got it.

  • It's a dot with a circle around it,

  • and underneath we're going to write the word target.

  • Now if that happened today on social media-- like,

  • my five-year-old could do this.

  • How much do these people get paid?

  • Total fail.

  • People would say, it's not clever at all.

  • But because they weren't clever, they weren't preemptively

  • clever on behalf of every future generation, all these great ad

  • agencies, all these great designers, all

  • these great marketing people, all these great business people

  • have done all these really interesting things

  • with that basic, simple piece of geometry.

  • And it was enabled not because-- what made it possible

  • was the simplicity of that original conception,

  • and I would almost say the humility

  • of the designers who actually put that forward as the idea.

  • Very recently I did a logo where I literally was thinking,

  • I really think this is the right solution.

  • The only thing wrong with it is that no one

  • will think I'm clever.

  • It just isn't clever.

  • There's nothing clever about it.

  • I'm not even sure this is that clever.

  • The music video makes it look kind

  • of ingenious and everything.

  • But I don't think-- inherently, it just

  • is this kind of workmanlike of thing.

  • What I like about it, too, is that I remember,

  • there were like two dozen groups.

  • If I recall, about half of them liked

  • the logos we did for them.

  • The other have didn't like their logos.

  • And I was like, this is simple.

  • I mean, it's a 49-square grid.

  • And once you explain the rules of the geometry, what's

  • your idea?

  • And they would come back with things, and we'd say,

  • that'll work if you do this.

  • And then eventually we-- through a very quick series

  • of kind of fun negotiations-- co-designed

  • every one of the remaining logos with the users.

  • And I don't remember even which ones those were,

  • because it was sort of the system designed it in the end.

  • So I think there's lots of different examples of how

  • that'll happen in the future.

  • I think that it's partly-- it's certainly enabled

  • or accelerated by technology.

  • But in a way, some symbols of world religions,

  • or countries, or the peace sign, simple things that people

  • can draw in the sand, or with a piece of chalk

  • on a wall-- in a way, those things

  • are the ultimate distributed design systems.

  • And it has less to do, I think-- it has as much

  • to do with the inherent simplicity

  • of the original conception as it does with the technology that

  • enables it.

  • Is that a long and-- Yeah.

  • AUDIENCE: One of the things I have to do

  • is go and find customers.

  • Now I have three options in terms of showing them product.

  • Either I go with the Google logo,

  • or I brand it for them specifically,

  • or I just use a made up, fictional company.

  • Which one do you think resonates best?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: OK.

  • So some of you guys must face this problem.

  • When he goes in to a potential client or customer,

  • he can brand-- you're branding a prototype or something,

  • I imagine, or--

  • AUDIENCE: Well, no.

  • Just the stuff that you could tell the customer

  • that they have the ability to brand themselves.

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: They have the ability to brand themselves.

  • He can put the Google logo on it,

  • he can put their name on it, or he

  • can put, like, Newco or some other pretend name on it.

  • Which is the best one?

  • You know, it's funny.

  • I think if Google were a startup--

  • this is just my opinion, OK?

  • I've been here for all of an hour or two,

  • so just take this as you will.

  • I think if Google were an unknown startup,

  • it would have a sort of requirement to kind of really

  • establish its name out there.

  • I think, if anything, Google, like a lot of other companies,

  • sort of has the other problem.

  • They're just seen as being-- I think your customers may

  • welcome the fact that you're kind of,

  • oh, you put our logo on it.

  • That seems beneficent, in a way.

  • And I think the only reason not to do

  • it is if their own logo is so ugly it makes everything

  • look terrible, right?

  • I assume.

  • Or else if you just kind of set it in your typeface

  • that you use for alphabet and all that other stuff?

  • That's another way you could do it,

  • I suppose, just to neutralize the whole thing a little bit.

  • AUDIENCE: So you think the logo resonates well with customers?

  • They don't get sick of seeing their own logo?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: No, no.

  • Customers don't get sick of seeing their own logo,

  • you kidding?

  • No, they love seeing their own logo,

  • particularly if they're going in with the fear of thinking

  • that they're giving something up going into a situation.

  • To see themselves acknowledged in that way, I think,

  • is probably reassuring.

  • I've done lots-- in that book, you'll find some examples.

  • There's some work we did for Saks Fifth Avenue, where

  • basically we were asked to do a brand new logo for them.

  • We couldn't come up with one.

  • Instead, we found a logo they had from the early '70s

  • and did this sort of remix of it.

  • I remember going to that presentation so happy,

  • thinking, they can't hate this because it's already

  • their logo.

  • They can't say, we don't want that.

  • You can't say that.

  • You already have it.

  • Ha ha!

  • So you know, I think that people just really-- I mean,

  • logos are weird because on one level,

  • they're this weird piece of commercial marketing--

  • they're a commercial marketing tool.

  • On the other hand, people do take them personally.

  • It's someone's signature.

  • It's the flag that they fight under.

  • It's the sign over the door they go to five days a week or more.

  • So it does mean a little bit more to them than just colors

  • and shapes, I find.

  • MALE SPEAKER: One more.

  • AUDIENCE: If you were a client, how

  • would you choose a graphic designer or agency

  • to work with?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: The question is, if I was a client,

  • how would I choose a graphic designer or agency

  • to work with?

  • That's a really good question, because I actually think that

  • that's-- when people are trying to get good design out

  • of a process, I think.

  • There's some people in the movie business

  • who sort of say the same thing, is

  • once you have the script, the director, and the cast,

  • and maybe the director of photography, the movie

  • is 95% done before anything starts filming.

  • It can only get 5% better or worse,

  • because those ingredients are like setting the tone.

  • And I think the same is true when you hire a designer.

  • I think you're making the primary decision about what

  • the outcome is going to be just through that, because once you

  • do that, you're already kind of putting yourself

  • on a certain track, whether you do it knowingly or not.

  • Just like a lot of decisions one makes in life.

  • Why did you go to that college?

  • What would have happened if you wouldn't have sat down

  • at that particular seat at the cafe next to that guy?

  • And then all of a sudden your life is changed, right?

  • Thus it also is with choosing a designer, I suppose.

  • I mean, I would love to hire designers all day long.

  • I think there's so much good work out there now.

  • It's all so visible.

  • I just would see things that you admired,

  • and then find out who's doing them,

  • and then meet those people and see

  • whether you like those people.

  • if you find somebody like who does work you admire,

  • and you're someone they like and you do work they admire,

  • that's true love, isn't it?

  • I've been married for going on 40 years

  • now, or 35 years, actually.

  • Dating the same girl for 40 years.

  • So I know all about true love.

  • Ask me about that sometime.

  • You had your hand up before.

  • I just want to have one more question.

  • AUDIENCE: So my question was, how much time

  • needs to be spent researching the client,

  • understanding their culture, their DNA?

  • MICHAEL BIERUT: I actually think that's really a critical thing.

  • And I think that it's something that I

  • imagine-- it's tough no matter what the situation is.

  • And people usually assume that researching a client,

  • and understanding what the situation is,

  • is really necessary when that situation is

  • kind of complicated or exotic, or no one understands it.

  • I've actually found that it's much worse when--

  • the more dangerous thing is when everyone thinks

  • they understand it already.

  • It sort of is-- one thing that's nice about designing for,

  • like, the Media Lab, what I just showed you,

  • is that what they do seems complicated and mysterious.

  • But everyone-- for instance, I think

  • a lot of the reaction that came out about the Google logo

  • had to do with, everyone thinks they

  • know everything there is to know about Google,

  • because they're on your site all day every day.

  • And what else is there to know?

  • They think they know you.

  • They wouldn't presume to know that much about a lot

  • of other entities in the world.

  • But they think they know you already.

  • And I think that that's actually,

  • from a designer's point of view, much more dangerous.

  • I think it's because you assume you know it all already.

  • And the questions always are, what don't we know?

  • What do we know today that isn't going to be true tomorrow?

  • What do we anticipate is going to happen tomorrow?

  • What do we have to put in place for the thing that's going

  • to happen five years from now?

  • So I think understanding those sort of factors.

  • And I think, just as importantly,

  • getting a sense overall of what the culture is like,

  • and what the spirit of the place is like.

  • Those are really fundamental to both establishing

  • the kind of rapport that makes for a fun design process,

  • and for ultimately coming out with a good solution.

  • And it's true for a really big organization.

  • It's true for a really small one.

  • Well, thank you so much.

MICHAEL BIERUT: Thank you so much for having me here.

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A2 初級 美國腔

Michael Bierut:"如何使用平面設計"|在谷歌的演講 (Michael Bierut: "How to use graphic design" | Talks at Google)

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    Qianhui Rao 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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