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  • [ Music ]

  • >> Voiceover: Stanford University.

  • [ Crowd noises ]

  • [ Speaker coming to podium ]

  • [ Inaudible ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Allow me to welcome you all back.

  • I hope you had a leisurely and congenial lunch.

  • In our third session today we're going to be making a shift.

  • We'll continue with the theme of research and experiment.

  • But we'll be focusing in particular on the cultivation,

  • the practices which cultivate compassion in us.

  • And then examining whether or not those practices

  • as we have them designed by Thupten Jinpa

  • and his team whether they are effective.

  • We have in addition

  • to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for this session.

  • We have Erika Rosenberg.

  • You want to say hello, Erika?

  • Who's a Consulting Scientist, Center for Mind and Brain

  • at the University of California, Davis.

  • And is also a meditation teacher at the Nyingma Institute

  • of Tibetan Studies in Berkeley.

  • In her work she aims to bring together the tools

  • of both science and practice to help people find happiness

  • and freedom from suffering, in her own words.

  • Thank you.

  • Second we have Phillipe Goldin who's the head of the Clinical.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Who's a Senior Research Scientist and head

  • of the Clinically Applied Affective Neuroscience Lab.

  • And then finally Jeanne Tsai who is an Associate Director.

  • Who is Associate Professor in the Psychology Department

  • at Stanford, and Director of the Stanford Culture

  • and Emotion Laboratory,

  • which examines how people's cultural ideas

  • and practices shape their emotions.

  • So we have a distinguished group together with us today.

  • And we're going to start with Erika.

  • Please.

  • >> Dr. Rosenberg: Thank you.

  • First let me thank you for your inspiration to all of us.

  • And for your inspiration for the project

  • that I'm going to tell you about.

  • You spoke yesterday so eloquently about the importance

  • of compassion training.

  • Of making this available to as many people as possible.

  • And for having something that's not wedded

  • to any particular religious point of view or world view.

  • And at CCARE that's been part of our mission.

  • It's the Center for Compassion

  • and Altruism Research and Education.

  • Linda talked earlier about some of the work that's being done

  • in schools, bringing emotional learning together

  • with mindfulness.

  • And what I'm going to present today is an eight-week training

  • program that we've developed here under the leadership

  • of my esteemed colleague, Thupten Jinpa.

  • We're really working from this question.

  • Can compassion be cultivated?

  • And we think the answer to this is yes.

  • But the idea here is that we want to connect

  • into that very inherent nature that we all have.

  • I think there's been a lot of research presented today to say

  • that we're really wired for compassion.

  • As mammals we have a strong nurturing instinct.

  • But for some reason, in this culture in particular,

  • we've gotten separated from that.

  • And so the idea with any kind of training program is to reconnect

  • with that basic good nature.

  • Reconnect with that basic inclination

  • to care for one another.

  • And importantly, and I think we've touched on this

  • with a couple speakers, the importance of taking care

  • of ourselves and remembering to be kind to ourselves,

  • so that all fits into our view.

  • So we had a few key aims in the development of this program.

  • One, as I said, that it be secular.

  • We want to reach as many people as possible

  • so that you do not have to be Buddhist in background,

  • or have any particular religious orientation.

  • That it should be widely accessible

  • to a wide range of people.

  • Going along with that is the idea of simplicity.

  • That you, anybody from a wide range of education levels

  • or socioeconomic status would be able to learn this if they come,

  • if they show up to the class

  • with the proper motivation to develop this.

  • That the tools should be accessible to many, many people.

  • What goes along, I think follows from these two goals of secular

  • and secularity, I don't know if that's a word, and simplicity is

  • that it be standardized.

  • And standardized.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • Yes. So what we mean by that is that it's laid out,

  • if we prepare a manual, which we have, that it's laid out in

  • such a way that any qualified teacher would be teaching the

  • same skills in the same way.

  • And this is of utmost important for dissemination.

  • We want to disseminate it widely so we have to know

  • that it would be taught in the same way by different people.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • But this is...

  • the standardization is also really important for research.

  • This is as much a research tool as an education tool.

  • So if we want at first to see

  • if we can effectively train compassion, or if we also want

  • to ask questions like does compassion training benefit

  • caregivers of people with Alzheimer's Disease?

  • People who are going through an extreme amount of stress

  • in their giving relationship?

  • We need to know that if we administer training to more

  • than one group of people

  • that they're getting it in the same way.

  • So that's why standardization was a key concern.

  • So over the course of eight weeks,

  • and we meet once a week for two hours.

  • And there are home practices.

  • People have home exercises they do every day.

  • We are building a progression of skills.

  • This, we start with settling the mind.

  • We are making no assumptions that people coming

  • in to this class will have any experience with meditation.

  • Some of them might, and we've have students

  • from a wide range of skill levels.

  • But it is of the utmost importance that people be able

  • to calm the body, calm the mind,

  • learn how to sustain attention and stabilize it.

  • And be able to return to an object of focus

  • in spite of distraction.

  • So this is, as you know, foundational for doing any kind

  • of inner contemplative work.

  • But especially for, we build on that by bringing them more

  • in tune with the changes in their bodies

  • that they experience when they're feeling emotions,

  • when they're connecting to other people's emotions.

  • So we always have a strong foundation of settling the mind.

  • And that is sort of like preparing the ground

  • for reconnecting with the heart.

  • Again, this is an intrinsic nature,

  • so they've created the spaciousness.

  • Maybe they can notice that quality

  • within themselves more readily.

  • And we work explicitly with practices for opening the heart.

  • Starting with, as is traditional, those people

  • with whom it's easiest to think, to extend compassion,

  • so we start working with a loved one.

  • And having the students work with connecting their, you know,

  • really conjuring up their feelings of concern

  • when a loved one was suffering,

  • and extending loving kindness to a loved one.

  • Once we've moistened the heart,

  • if you will to use Jinpa's words, and made that more...

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • Yeah. Prepared them, it's easier now.

  • We actually encourage them to kind of look

  • within toward themselves, and reconnect with that sense

  • of caring for one's self.

  • As we've discussed, and I think you've discussed

  • in other forums, for Westerners in particular it's difficult

  • to direct love or compassion toward one's self.

  • But we, you know, we try to make it plain, you know.

  • You take care of your basic hygiene.

  • You take care of your food and clothing.

  • You take care of yourself emotionally,

  • and self-soothing is a very basic thing.

  • So contextualizing that is self-care.

  • Once we've worked with that,

  • we kind of pave the way for moving out.

  • Broadening that circle of inclusiveness, and really trying

  • to cultivate an empathic connection with other beings.

  • Reminding them

  • of the fundamental similarities, sameness.

  • You talked about this yesterday as well, that in spite

  • of all our superficial dissimilarities,

  • we all want the same thing.

  • We all want happiness and its causes.

  • We all want to be free from suffering and its causes.

  • And that's just, it's so simple.

  • But, you know, we get into that it's almost a revelation

  • for people to connect with that

  • in an experiential way and remember that.

  • So we do a lot of work with cultivating connection,

  • and recognizing interdependence.

  • And that sort of sets the stage for starting

  • to move out even more.

  • Broadening the circle of inclusiveness not just

  • to loved ones, but to strangers and people

  • with whom their relationships are different.

  • And beginning to work to generate active compassion.

  • So this is what we work with over eight weeks.

  • And we rely on a variety of techniques to do this,

  • so I thought the best way to illustrate this would be

  • to show you an example class.

  • This is sort of the setup for week four when we work

  • on cultivating connection.

  • We begin as always with settling the mind.

  • Every class begins with this.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • So we start each class with settling the mind just to kind

  • of create a foundation, create a space.

  • And everybody's coming from different places

  • after work just to bring it all home.

  • Then we move out into a discussion

  • of what the theme of the week is.

  • And in this case it's Connection and Interdependence.

  • Here we really ask our instructors to draw

  • on a wide variety of areas.

  • So we might from Buddhist psychology talk

  • about interdependence, you know.

  • And just simply the idea of how our actions affect others,

  • and others' actions affect us.

  • And developing an appreciation for how everybody

  • around us really wants the same thing,

  • this fundamental wish for happiness.

  • And we also might draw on some ideas or concepts or findings

  • from Western psychology or neuroscience.

  • Talking about empathy research or maybe, you know,

  • neural neurons in this case.

  • That would be relevant.

  • Really broadening it out.

  • Then we'll do a Western exercise,

  • a more Western-derived exercise plus guided meditations.

  • And in this class the Western exercise is done in pairs.

  • We break people up into pairs, and it's a talking

  • and listening exercise and.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • So in this case the speaker is told to talk

  • about something that's happened recently

  • where they had great disappointment or suffering,

  • and to share that with the listener.

  • And the listener's job is

  • to actively listen silently, not to offer advice.

  • But more importantly to try to imagine what it might have felt

  • like to be in this person's shoes.

  • What, and really conjure up in their body this feeling.

  • So we're really working on the empathic shared feeling.

  • And as we know from several theories

  • of compassion this resonance, this sharing

  • of the feeling is crucial in the development of reaching

  • out land wishing to help.

  • Then we'll have a 30-minute guided meditation practice

  • in terms of.

  • In this class we work on extending the circle

  • of compassion, recognizing importantly the shared

  • aspirations of all beings.

  • And there's a nice little imagery exercise we go

  • through of recognizing

  • for example how many people are responsible

  • for bringing you here to this moment,

  • and having clothes and food to eat.

  • And all these countless individuals who you don't see,

  • and to develop a wide net of appreciation.

  • And then we have some of those guided meditations they do

  • as part of their daily home practice.

  • And we might also have a practical exercise

  • such as gratitude practice.

  • Where at the end of the day they think of all that they have

  • that they're thankful for.

  • So just to wrap up, we've offered this course.

  • We've done it four complete times.

  • We have two classes underway.

  • Jeanne and Phillipe will talk about some

  • of our initial research efforts

  • to establish the effectiveness of this.

  • And what we're doing now is trying to train more teachers

  • so we can offer this widely.

  • And extend the research beyond the effectiveness to look

  • into some groups of people such as those listed here,

  • Care Cultivation teachers

  • who might be especially in need of this.

  • And just I want to thank, acknowledge Jinpa

  • in his key role in the development of this program

  • as the main author of the training.

  • With the contribute, myself and my other colleagues at CCARE

  • who have contributed to the development

  • of the training program.

  • And CCARE for making this happen.

  • >> Addressor: Thank you very much, Erika.

  • [ Applause ]

  • And now we'll switch speakers.

  • Phillipe Goldin will take on the chair.

  • Thank you very much, Erika, for a window into the training

  • that you provide into cultivation of compassion.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: So thank you very much for being here.

  • And this is just briefly some initial results from courses

  • that have been taught by Erika and Kelly McGonagall.

  • Simply the goal is how does this compassion training influence

  • social response to others,

  • especially others who are suffering?

  • Emotions that we have?

  • And attention?

  • So far 32 healthy adults, roughly 39 years old adults

  • in the community, not students.

  • And here I'm going to just show some data related to one task

  • that we called the Care Video.

  • We showed videos of real people describing their own suffering

  • in their own words.

  • And the question is, does the compassion training

  • that Thupten Jinpa and others put together,

  • does it really affect how we care for other people?

  • How we work with our emotions?

  • And also how it might influence our attention.

  • So I'm going to show a video clip, just a part,

  • of a person describing their own suffering.

  • [ Silence ]

  • l

  • >> Interviewee: Oh, my father died

  • of congestive heart failure.

  • And it's one of these things that kind of took, you know,

  • a couple of years to ultimately take its course.

  • A few days before he died, about the week before,

  • I had a business trip scheduled.

  • And I got a call from my sister

  • that he had been admitted to the hospital.

  • Like well, you know, should I schedule my business trip

  • or cancel it or whatever?

  • And I was at a point in my career

  • where I felt very insecure about doing something like that.

  • That was halfway into my trip.

  • And my sister called again and said he had been admitted

  • to the hospital again, and it looked bad.

  • So I canceled the rest of my trip after all,

  • and my father had died while I was in transit.

  • And I was never able to say goodbye to him, and it's just

  • because I put the stupid trip,

  • I can't even remember what it was about,

  • ahead of seeing him one last time.

  • [ Silence ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • So we show several video clips.

  • We do lots of assessment.

  • But with response to this type of task,

  • what we ask people how much do you feel a sense of care

  • for the person whose story you just heard?

  • And what we see is from before

  • to after compassion training an increase in the sense of caring.

  • From before to after compassion training we see how willing are

  • you to help this person?

  • That goes up.

  • How much time would you be willing to actually sit and talk

  • with this person if I gave you the opportunity?

  • And that also goes up after the compassion training.

  • So these are the social responses.

  • Then the question is how might this be supported

  • by changes in emotion?

  • And what we found is anxiety [inaudible],

  • anxiety when you're sitting with other people goes

  • down after compassion training.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • And then also for lots of us we suppress showing our emotions,

  • which is not adaptive.

  • It's not helpful.

  • And suppressing decreases after the compassion training.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • And then finally here another way of working with emotion,

  • which is much more beneficial, which is thinking in a way

  • to change the meaning of the situation

  • so that we feel less negative.

  • That kind of working

  • with emotion increases after compassion.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • And then finally, might the changes in emotion...?

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: His Holiness is wondering whether that ability

  • to reinterpret a situation

  • in a more constructive light is it a direct affect

  • of compassion it self,

  • or something else is happening there.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Don't know yet.

  • [ Audience chuckles ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: The compassion brings inner strength,

  • and that creates the [speaking Tibetan] combined,

  • or combined can see the others

  • of the wholistic [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: Yes.

  • That could be true, yes.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: And then finally to the changes

  • in social behavior and emotion, might they also be related

  • to changes in attention.

  • And here one simple task with EEG

  • where the person puts their eyes on the red triangle

  • but they pay attention to the blue circle.

  • Very, very simple.

  • And we're only looking at the back of the brain here that has

  • to do with visual processing.

  • And very simply, what we find is that from before

  • to after the eight-week compassion training this neural

  • signal increases, suggesting that people are more able

  • to sustain their attention after this compassion training.

  • And this might support the emotion.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Possibly.

  • >> Jinpa: So the experiment involves simply asking them

  • to keep your attention on the circle.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Yes.

  • >> Jinpa: That's all.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Which seems simple.

  • But when you're doing it for about...

  • twenty minutes...

  • >> Jinpa: I know.

  • I know. That was the question.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: That was it.

  • Just how well you could actually sustain your attention

  • without letting it distract.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: So the way you defined this is it detects

  • if you have lost your visual attention.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: We have continuous for 40 minutes

  • or 30 minutes, continuous signal from this part of the brain

  • where we can see from moment

  • to moment am I paying attention to the blue circle?

  • The signal goes up.

  • I'm not paying attention, whoo!

  • It goes down.

  • [ Silence ]

  • And in summary, what I've shown you is

  • that compassion cultivation training,

  • this two-month program might, we have to do more work,

  • change social behavior.

  • More care, more help,

  • more giving of one's own time to others.

  • It might change some aspects of emotion.

  • Less anxiety with other people.

  • And increases emotion...

  • working with emotions effectively.

  • And some evidence that there's increased sustained attention

  • in each other.

  • Thank you and.

  • Thank you to CCARE and to Thupten.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you very much

  • for a wonderful presentation.

  • And a hopeful presentation.

  • Thupten Jinpa is our translator, our interpreter.

  • And he plays this extremely selfless role.

  • I think very few people really realize what a,

  • how he's a fully trained monk achieving a Geshe degree,

  • which is it's like getting a PhD, in his own tradition.

  • And he brings all of that capacity to this project.

  • So Jinpa, wonderful.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Dr. Zajonc: lJeanne?

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Great.

  • Thank you.

  • Your Holiness, it's an honor to have this opportunity

  • to present to you a second time.

  • The first time was in Dharamsala in the conference

  • about Destructive Emotions.

  • And in many ways the research I'm going to tell you

  • about today is an inspiration from that meeting.

  • So thank you.

  • I'm going to talk about two studies today, and the focus

  • of these studies is the effects of meditation on compassion.

  • But this is a particular type of compassion

  • that we're interested in.

  • The compassion that we can feel toward a convicted murderer.

  • So in many ways this is a very difficult task of meditation,

  • because it's hard to feel empathy, acceptance and optimism

  • for a convicted killer.

  • From, for most people it's very difficult.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • So in the first study my student, Joscelyn,

  • showed meditators

  • and non-meditators a letter from a prisoner.

  • This is a letter from a real convicted murderer.

  • He gave us his permission

  • to use the letter, and we call him Mike.

  • And in this letter he says a number of things.

  • He talks about how he's serving a natural life sentence

  • with parole for murdering a friend in a blind fit of rage.

  • And he talks about how he grew up with a lot

  • of anger in his family.

  • But that when in prison he's begun

  • to move beyond that hatred and pain.

  • And so he admits his guilt, but he is trying to have some hope

  • for some sort of freedom outside of his imprisoned mind.

  • So even though he knows he'll continue to be in prison,

  • he's still looking for something,

  • some sort of spiritual freedom.

  • And so he ends the letter by asking the readers to write him.

  • So in the study that Joscelyn did, she showed meditators

  • and non-meditators this letter.

  • Asked them a number of questions about the content of the letter.

  • Paid them, and then told them that the study was over.

  • But before they left the lab,

  • they were given the opportunity to write Mike.

  • And what we found was that the majority of the mediators,

  • 63% of the mediators in red,

  • wrote Mike even though they didn't need to.

  • There was no obligation for them to write Mike.

  • Whereas, only a minority of the non-meditators wrote Mike.

  • So they not only.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • The meditators were not only more likely to write Mike,

  • they wrote longer letters.

  • And they also wrote more compassionate letters.

  • They wrote letters that included more empathy,

  • more forgiveness, and more optimism.

  • And so the results from this study suggest

  • that meditation does increase this very difficult kind

  • of compassion.

  • And if I weren't a scientist I would be really happy

  • with these findings and I would stop here.

  • But scientists aren't easily happy until.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • Until they rule out other explanations.

  • And so in this case it could be that meditation leads to more

  • of this kind of compassion.

  • Or it could be that this kind of compassion is due to the people

  • who choose to meditate.

  • It might be that the people who choose

  • to meditate are more likely to write.

  • Are more likely to write Mike, so it wasn't really the effect

  • of meditation but these preexisting characteristics.

  • And.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • So we did a second study that was funded by CCARE

  • to rule out this explanation.

  • In this study, we randomly assigned people

  • to a meditation class.

  • And we also looked at different types of meditation to see

  • if it was all meditation types of meditation that leads

  • to greater compassion.

  • Or if it was a specific type of meditation.

  • And this is work that I did with my students,

  • Birgit Koopmann-Holm, who's in the audience, and Camaron Ochs.

  • So in this study we randomly assigned Stanford students

  • to one of four groups.

  • The two first....

  • The first two groups were meditation groups.

  • The first group was a compassion meditation group,

  • and they underwent the compassion meditation program.

  • An earlier version of the one

  • that Erika just presented earlier,

  • and it was developed by Jinpa.

  • The second group underwent an eight-week mindfulness

  • meditation course, like Jon Kabat-Zinn.

  • The third group underwent an improvisational theater class.

  • This is a class that teaches students

  • to be spontaneous and cooperative.

  • And we included this class because we wanted to be able

  • to differentiate the effects of taking a class

  • in which you learn a new skill, you're taught in a group

  • by a teacher and you have materials and homework,

  • from the effects of a meditation class specifically.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • And then the last fourth of the participants were

  • in a no class control, so they didn't take the class at all.

  • So these participants, the participants

  • in the classes took a two-hour class once a week

  • for eight weeks.

  • And at the end of the eight weeks they were presented

  • with a letter that I showed you earlier.

  • And they were asked questions about the letter.

  • And then they were paid, told the study was over,

  • and then given an opportunity to write.

  • And.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • So our hypotheses were that the people

  • in the meditation classes would be more likely

  • to behave compassionately toward the convicted murderer

  • than those in the control classes.

  • And that the participants

  • in the compassion meditation class would be

  • particularly compassionate.

  • So contrary to our hypotheses we found no differences

  • between the groups in the percentage of people who wrote,

  • in the length of the letters, in empathy or how empathetic

  • or sympathetic the letters were.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • How forgiving or accepting the letters were.

  • But don't worry, we did find a difference in how optimistic

  • and encouraging the groups were.

  • And it was the participants in the compassion meditation group

  • who were more optimistic

  • and encouraging toward the convicted murderer

  • than any other group.

  • So more than the controls, and more than the participants

  • in the mindfulness meditation.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • Now when we've talked to people

  • about these results they've said well, maybe the people

  • in the compassion meditation are just more positive overall.

  • They just are more positive about everything,

  • and maybe they're unrealistic.

  • But we also.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • But we also asked the participants how much they

  • thought that Mike, the convicted murderer,

  • deserved the sentence that he had.

  • And in this case the participants

  • in the compassion meditation class felt

  • that he deserved his sentence even more than the other groups.

  • So it wasn't that they were unrealistic,

  • they were very realistic.

  • And yet they still had hope and optimism for Mike.

  • So in summary, the previous differences

  • that we found may have been due

  • to these preexisting characteristics of people

  • who are likely to meditate.

  • But compassion meditation based

  • on this first preliminary study seems

  • to uniquely influence how optimistic and encouraging

  • and hopeful people are toward a convicted murderer.

  • And so the implications are

  • that while these preexisting characteristics may account

  • for some of the results, some of the differences

  • between mediators and non-meditators,

  • compassion meditation does have a specific effect.

  • And remember, this is based on novices.

  • People who had no experience meditating before they took

  • the class.

  • And so compassion meditation for these individuals seems

  • to give them hope about the future of other people,

  • even those who appear to be in very hopeless situations.

  • And what we know is that having hope

  • for another person can make all the difference in terms

  • of the course of their life.

  • So in future work, we'd like to look at longer term meditators.

  • Again, this is only eight weeks,

  • so we wonder how the effects will be different

  • after people have been meditating for longer.

  • We'd like to look at other forms of compassion.

  • Remember, this is the most difficult type

  • of compassion, to feel.

  • And we'd like to see whether this kind

  • of compassion meditation program has similar effects

  • in other cultures and with other religions.

  • And so I'd like to end by thanking CCARE again as well

  • as all the people who were involved in these projects.

  • And thank you for you, for your attention.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you very much, Jeanne.

  • Thank you.

  • So we've heard three presentations

  • on the cultivation of compassion.

  • And not only the description of the actual program itself,

  • but also two research studies which have illuminated

  • from quite different sides the particulars of this field.

  • And I think we're grateful to you as a hard-minded pair

  • of scientists looking at the details of this.

  • And trying to tease out those features

  • which are distinguishing from those

  • which are delusory in a certain way.

  • So thank you very much.

  • And I don't know, first I'd like to see

  • if His Holiness has a particular question

  • that might have arisen during the course.

  • I noticed that you were comparing, for example,

  • to your own experience.

  • That is to say as a meditator,

  • how it is that is worked for you.

  • What it is that was.

  • What it is that was generated

  • as you did the compassion exercises.

  • Did you find a connection to the data that was being presented

  • from your own experience to the experiments

  • that are being done here?

  • >> Dalai Lama: Obviously to training.

  • Training means making familiarity.

  • [ Struggling for words ]

  • Definitely for the increase or shaping a way of thinking.

  • That's definitely.

  • That might I can say through my own experience.

  • [ Silence ]

  • As far as I am Buddhist.

  • So my practice is a Buddhist practice that...

  • the concept of emptiness.

  • And also the altruism through sort of not [really grace?],

  • but on a daily basis is a practice.

  • So decade by decade, we sort of change.

  • That's there.

  • So that means that through training

  • of mind attitude can change.

  • Motivation can change.

  • As a result your basic mental state much calmer, much happier.

  • That also does not mean that your mental attitude

  • in something, indifferent?

  • No. So that much I know.

  • And then once again.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: His Holiness is, you know, interested at the point

  • that you made about how compassion training seems

  • to have an effect on sustained attention.

  • But His Holiness wants to ask you because, you know,

  • even in the case of anger, when you are single pointedly angry

  • about something, there is an element of sustained attention

  • to the object, the focus of your anger.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Just a little bit.

  • >> Jinpa: But has any work been done, something similar?

  • This function of sustained attention and anger.

  • >> Dr. Rosenberg: Yes.

  • [Inaudible].

  • >> Dalai Lama: To free emotion.

  • When usually that particular emotion getting sort

  • of stronger, then some way focusing on single-pointed.

  • Okay.

  • >> Jinpa: On-target.

  • >> Dalai Lama: On-target.

  • So then in that case [speaking Tibetan ]

  • .

  • >> Jinpa: So if that is the case, then clearly the effect

  • that you are seeing not a direct effect of compassion.

  • Something else is happening there.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Possibly.

  • But I think it's a good point

  • that different emotions will facilitate different kinds

  • of focused attention.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Yes.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: And, but you know,

  • I haven't seen research that's delineated that for each,

  • like sadness, happiness.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Yes.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Anger, jealousy.

  • But, so I don't know.

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Hasn't there been some research that's

  • distinguished between high arousal states

  • and low arousals states?

  • And the high arousal states like anger,

  • as well as like enthusiasm, seem to focus attention more.

  • Whereas lower arousal states like calm seem

  • to widen attention, which I think is consistent

  • with what you were describing.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: Does this make sense to you, Your Holiness?

  • >> Dalai Lama: Oh, yes.

  • Yes. Very, very.

  • They're very interesting.

  • So I think a lot of sort of further, sort of research.

  • Like a bold field research to theoretical level research

  • and practical level research.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa: Yes.

  • There needs.

  • There needs to be kind of research at, from two ends.

  • One is at the level of theoretical understanding.

  • There needs to be more fine-tuning of the concepts.

  • But then at the practical level there's another element

  • of research by looking more, you know,

  • through a kind of extra experiment.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I was in fact wondering about this

  • with regards to your understanding, from perhaps even

  • out of the Buddhist tradition,

  • concerning the theory of compassion.

  • How is it you understand compassion?

  • How is it you understand the meditation methods themselves

  • which lead to the development of compassion?

  • You know, in science we have not only an empirical result

  • if we do this and something happens.

  • But that we also try

  • to understand the theoretical foundations for this.

  • Is there a way in which this is described

  • within your philosophical framework?

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • >> Jinpa?: Oh, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint I think even,

  • I think the ancient Indian toto [assumed spelling],

  • Indian taught.

  • And that means those traditions of Buddhism, non-Buddhism,

  • there are sort of training of mind.

  • Mainly is the practice

  • of semanti [assumed spelling] concentration.

  • And also avasala [assumed spelling] is common in Buddhism

  • and non-Buddhism in ancient India.

  • So firstly, some kind of math about mind or consciousness.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: For example, in the Buddhist psychology,

  • we have a kind of a basic taxonomy of the mental world.

  • So you have distinct, at a very fundamental level,

  • distinction between the primary awareness.

  • And then the modalities of that awareness,

  • which are referred to as mental factors.

  • And within those modalities we speak

  • of five omnipresent factors

  • which are always there at any given moment.

  • Then you have other object determining factors.

  • So you have this complex taxonomy of the mental world.

  • And within that framework we understand the phenomena.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So let's take the example of compassion.

  • You know, we speak of compassion,

  • but we're already talking about a very complex

  • in a mental phenomena which has many different aspects.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • For example, like in any given moment, you know,

  • when you are paying attention,

  • or sustained attention some, any...

  • in an object.

  • In that experience, whether it is emotional

  • or cognitive experience, there is an element

  • of single-pointedness of the mind.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So that's why I was citing an example of anger.

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dalai Lama: So naturally,

  • as far as I notice this scientific sort of research.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: For example in Paul Eckman's work, you know,

  • there's a lot of development that has been based

  • on understanding facial expressions, of emotions.

  • And some of the detailed descriptions

  • of specific types of familiar emotions.

  • That, you know, some of those are not found

  • in the Buddhist taxonomy.

  • So I think that maybe we need to incorporate those

  • into the Buddhist psychology.

  • >> Dalai Lama: So actually we are,

  • I think yesterday I mentioned actually we are working

  • on [inaudible] a document on texts.

  • The science [inaudible].

  • >> Jinpa: It's a project that's referred

  • to as Creating a Compendium of Science or Sciences.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So the project involved, for example, creating a textbook

  • that represented a compendium of gathering all the insights

  • and understanding of say.

  • For example, in the field of science of mind,

  • there will be science of mind drawn

  • from the Buddhist classical texts,

  • similarly from non-Buddhist [inaudible] classical text.

  • And including contemporary psychology and neuroscience.

  • Similarly in say, for example,

  • in physics the compendium would draw from early Buddhist,

  • you know, discussions about physics

  • and also the non-Buddhist Indian traditions.

  • And then it would be including contemporary scientific

  • understanding on physics and so on.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: That's a great project.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: Count me in!

  • >> Dalai Lama: Also a good project where nobody paid.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: I work cheap.

  • That's all right.

  • Do any of the panelists, any of the presenters.

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughs ]

  • Do any of you have a?

  • >> Dalai Lama: So I am hoping, we are hoping

  • like in the next six months many [inaudible] roughs of.

  • >> Jinpa: Draft.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Drafts maybe.

  • So we are taking this translation, English translation

  • into the Chinese and a few more languages.

  • So it can be, it's purely economics of subject.

  • No mention [speaking Tibetan ]

  • .

  • >> Jinpa: There are no elevated [assumed spelling] components

  • in it.

  • Simply descriptive.

  • Yes.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Oh.

  • Because so far that also there are some material

  • about [speaking Tibetan] in the sciences,

  • external science in Buddhist text.

  • But then you have to refer that [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: Yes.

  • So at this point in order to get this information,

  • you have to actually look into the texts themselves

  • which makes it difficult to access.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So the idea is to crate a compendium

  • so that general readers do not need to actually look

  • at the classical sources themselves.

  • They can see, look at the compendium.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Then philosophy.

  • [ Applause ]

  • Then the philosophy requires [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: So we are also creating a compendium

  • on philosophy.

  • >> Dalai Lama: So all of that is mainly meant for Tibetan,

  • for the younger generation.

  • And I think Buddhist generations.

  • And of course in the West

  • in the scientific research work all findings can be a helpful

  • benefit on that.

  • So anyway, I think we need a lot

  • of research work [speaking Tibetan ]

  • combine scientific sort of way of research.

  • And then the.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: So from the perspective

  • of say a Buddhist contemplative science and psychology.

  • >> Dalai Lama: One of my critics is usually we study

  • these things.

  • But finally are one quotation.

  • >> Jinpa: Text.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Text.

  • So then no further explanation.

  • So that's [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: So sometimes in, you know,

  • the classical tradition they tend to be contented

  • with what the text says.

  • And it creates an unnecessary limitation.

  • >> Addressor: It's a tendency we have in the West also, right?

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughing ]

  • [ Silence ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Your Holiness?

  • Are you open to another question or two?

  • And would anyone from any of the presenters like to pose?

  • I have a few up my sleeve still.

  • Jeanne, do you have something?

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Most of these meditation protocols are

  • revolved around eight weeks.

  • And my question is, I don't know if you can answer it,

  • but how much time do you think is a reasonable amount of time

  • for training before you see significant changes?

  • >> Dalai Lama: Whole life.

  • >> Dr. Tsai: Whole life.

  • [ Audience laughs and applauds ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: [Inaudible].

  • >> Dalai Lama: Now of course obviously is my only,

  • my own case.

  • I think I developed a genuine sort of interest

  • in the practice I think around 15-16 years old.

  • Before that, just a boy.

  • No interest.

  • Then gradually it just start more serious practice and study

  • as a. So I think there is some real sort of shift,

  • new shift way of thinking.

  • Perhaps my age maybe, and early late '20s and early '30s.

  • Then gradually '50s, '60s was of that deeper, deeper, deeper.

  • Of course still I cannot say my sort

  • of special experience is something very high.

  • No, never.

  • Still a little above zero.

  • >> Dr. Rosenberg: Significantly different from [inaudible].

  • [ Dalai Lama laughing ]

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Erika.

  • >> Dalai Lama: So even that, you know,

  • it takes a lot of years, doesn't it?

  • One thing definitely I can say.

  • >> Dr. Tsai: So, start early?.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Oh, one thing I can state definitely

  • with confidence mind can change

  • through training, through earnest.

  • That's sure.

  • [ Applause ]

  • [ Dalai Lama laughing ]

  • >> Dr. Rosenberg: I was just going to say something

  • in response to what Jeanne was saying.

  • And my experience with this length of training,

  • and it's a model that's been used a lot

  • by Jon Kabat-Zinn's program,

  • is that maybe what's happening there is

  • that we're getting people launched, you know.

  • That we're moving them from a place of not even looking inward

  • or looking at that or opening their hearts

  • to where they're now over some threshold and they're doing it.

  • Because my experience as a teacher, and even at Google

  • where we've had this small group of people

  • who are working really hard and couldn't seem to attend and.

  • But they managed.

  • They, after the end of the class they all got together

  • and they wanted to figure out how they would continue to meet

  • and practice in spite of their incredibly difficult

  • work schedules.

  • And so I think that.

  • And I don't know if we're assessing it that way.

  • It's interesting that they've gone over this threshold.

  • So maybe they've made the commitment and they've shifted

  • in certain skills, and now they can move on.

  • >> Dr. Goldin: [Inaudible] sometimes people say compassion

  • towards another individual helps to reduce the suffering

  • of that one person through the altruistic behavior the

  • compassion results in.

  • But is there a deeper understanding?

  • Something where we don't only look

  • at the individual case this moment, a moment of compassion.

  • But we begin to work at a more universal level,

  • at a more profound level to release people from suffering.

  • Release ourselves as well as others from suffering.

  • How is it we approach this question

  • at a still deeper level?

  • [ Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking and Jinpa translating ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: So His Holiness was saying

  • that his own personal observation is

  • that it may not be true.

  • He feels that if you compare, say, anger with compassion,

  • anger is a type of emotion that seems to need a kind

  • of a concrete target, an individual object for it

  • to arise and to be sustained.

  • There is compassion although it may arise in the context,

  • naturally in a concrete context.

  • But compassion seems to be a type of emotion

  • which actually can be generalized and cultivated,

  • and without requiring any specific concrete objects

  • to all beings.

  • So he was wondering whether it makes any sense

  • to be angry towards everybody and to the entire being.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • For example, in the Buddhist meditation context,

  • there is a particular practice that aims

  • to cultivate compassion on the basis

  • of recognizing the deeper causes of suffering.

  • And particularly conditioning as a form of,

  • you know, a state of being.

  • And once you generate that kind of compassion,

  • then compassion seems to move beyond the limitations

  • of specific concrete individuals.

  • Because you are now generating compassion on the basis

  • of recognizing a situation that is common to all beings.

  • And on that basis generating compassion.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So it seems that the mental processes that we all, you know,

  • have in such a complex world, that each seems

  • to have its own way of operating.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Thank you, Your Holiness.

  • Thank you very much.

  • Quite a powerful picture of moving

  • from the individual towards whom one has compassion.

  • To the conditions under which we all as human beings live,

  • and towards which we can have compassion more generally.

  • Thank you very much.

  • And thank to.

  • Thanks to our presenters, first of all to the.

  • >> Dalai Lama: [Inaudible].

  • Sorry.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: Go right ahead.

  • [ Audience laughs ]

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: Yes.

  • So another.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • So another difference between the two is that in the case

  • of anger, you know, against someone

  • who has done something to you.

  • Although the act it involves really made you angry,

  • but the anger seems to be focused not so much

  • on what was done but rather to the person, you know who is.

  • >> Dalai Lama: Of course use the reason he

  • or she has done such and such thing.

  • Therefore, I feel angry.

  • So the actual target is the person, not the sort

  • of [speaking Tibetan]?

  • >> Jinpa: Action.

  • >> Dalai Lama: But whereas compassion.

  • [ Dalai Lama speaking Tibetan ]

  • >> Jinpa: So although in the case of compassion the focus

  • of your compassion is that person who's suffering.

  • But the reason for that is really

  • because of that suffering.

  • So compassion seems to take suffering

  • as a more primary focus, and that person.

  • >> Dalai Lama: So this difference [inaudible],

  • but this is not clearly mentioned in our text.

  • But this comes from [inaudible].

  • [ Everyone laughing ]

  • Of course we need to use t his sort of further

  • in developing a discussion [speaking Tibetan].

  • >> Jinpa: So this kind of further exploration, you know,

  • getting deeper into the processes seems

  • to be really important.

  • >> Dr. Zajonc: That's great.

  • And we have another research program I think that's being

  • proposed, so thank you very much for that.

  • And we're going to have to transition

  • from this group to our final group.

  • Thank you all three of you for the work you've done,

  • and for the presentations you've given.

  • [ Applause ]

  • >> Voiceover: For more please visit us at stanford.edu.

[ Music ]

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CCARE同情心研究與實驗II (CCARE Research and Experiments on Compassion II)

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    李承 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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