Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

  • LEHRER: Good evening from the Magness Arena at the University of Denver in Denver, Colorado.

  • I'm Jim Lehrer of the "PBS NewsHour," and I welcome you to the first of the 2012 presidential

  • debates between President Barack Obama, the Democratic nominee, and former Massachusetts

  • Governor Mitt Romney, the Republican nominee.

  • LEHRER: This debate and the next three -- two presidential, one vice presidential -- are

  • sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight's 90 minutes will be about

  • domestic issues and will follow a format designed by the commission. There will be six roughly

  • 15-minute segments with two-minute answers for the first question, then open discussion

  • for the remainder of each segment.

  • Thousands of people offered suggestions on segment subjects or questions via the Internet

  • and other means, but I made the final selections. And for the record, they were not submitted

  • for approval to the commission or the candidates.

  • The segments as I announced in advance will be three on the economy and one each on health

  • care, the role of government and governing, with an emphasis throughout on differences,

  • specifics and choices. Both candidates will also have two-minute closing statements.

  • The audience here in the hall has promised to remain silent -- no cheers, applause, boos,

  • hisses, among other noisy distracting things, so we may all concentrate on what the candidates

  • have to say. There is a noise exception right now, though, as we welcome President Obama

  • and Governor Romney.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • Gentlemen, welcome to you both. Let's start the economy, segment one, and let's begin

  • with jobs. What are the major differences between the two of you about how you would

  • go about creating new jobs?

  • LEHRER: You have two minutes. Each of you have two minutes to start. A coin toss has

  • determined, Mr. President, you go first.

  • OBAMA: Well, thank you very much, Jim, for this opportunity. I want to thank Governor

  • Romney and the University of Denver for your hospitality.

  • There are a lot of points I want to make tonight, but the most important one is that 20 years

  • ago I became the luckiest man on Earth because Michelle Obama agreed to marry me.

  • And so I just want to wish, Sweetie, you happy anniversary and let you know that a year from

  • now we will not be celebrating it in front of 40 million people.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • You know, four years ago we went through the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

  • Millions of jobs were lost, the auto industry was on the brink of collapse. The financial

  • system had frozen up.

  • And because of the resilience and the determination of the American people, we've begun to fight

  • our way back. Over the last 30 months, we've seen 5 million jobs in the private sector

  • created. The auto industry has come roaring back. And housing has begun to rise.

  • But we all know that we've still got a lot of work to do. And so the question here tonight

  • is not where we've been, but where we're going.

  • Governor Romney has a perspective that says if we cut taxes, skewed towards the wealthy,

  • and roll back regulations, that we'll be better off. I've got a different view.

  • I think we've got to invest in education and training. I think it's important for us to

  • develop new sources of energy here in America, that we change our tax code to make sure that

  • we're helping small businesses and companies that are investing here in the United States,

  • that we take some of the money that we're saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild

  • America and that we reduce our deficit in a balanced way that allows us to make these

  • critical investments.

  • ROMNEY: Now, I'm

  • concerned that the path that we're on has just been unsuccessful. The president has

  • a view very similar to the view he had when he ran four years, that a bigger government,

  • spending more, taxing more, regulating more -- if you will, trickle-down government -- would

  • work.

  • That's not the right answer for America. I'll restore the vitality that gets America working

  • again. Thank you.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President, please respond directly to what the governor just said about trickle-down

  • -- his trick-down approach, as he said yours is.

  • OBAMA: Well, let me talk specifically about what I think we need to do. First, we've got

  • to improve our education system and we've made enormous progress drawing on ideas both

  • from Democrats and Republicans that are already starting to show gains in some of the toughest

  • to deal with schools. We've got a program called Race to the Top that has prompted reforms

  • in 46 states around the country, raising standards, improving how we train teachers.

  • So now I want to hire another 100,000 new math and science teachers, and create 2 million

  • more slots in our community colleges so that people can get trained for the jobs that are

  • out there right now. And I want to make sure that we keep tuition low for our young people.

  • When it comes to our tax code, Governor Romney and I both agree that our corporate tax rate

  • is too high, so I want to lower it, particularly for manufacturing, taking it down to 25 percent.

  • But I also want to close those loopholes that are giving incentives for companies that are

  • shipping jobs overseas. I want to provide tax breaks for companies that are investing

  • here in the United States.

  • On energy, Governor Romney and I, we both agree that we've got to boost American energy

  • production, and oil and natural gas production are higher than they've been in years. But

  • I also believe that we've got to look at the energy sources of the future, like wind and

  • solar and biofuels, and make those investments.

  • OBAMA: So all of this is possible. Now, in order for us to do it, we do have to close

  • our deficit, and one of the things I'm sure we'll be discussing tonight is, how do we

  • deal with our tax code? And how do we make sure that we are reducing spending in a responsible

  • way, but also, how do we have enough revenue to make those investments?

  • And this is where there's a difference, because Governor Romney's central economic plan calls

  • for a $5 trillion tax cut -- on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts -- that's another

  • trillion dollars -- and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't

  • asked for. That's $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the

  • investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans,

  • I think is one of the central questions of this campaign.

  • LEHRER: Both of you have spoken about a lot of different things, and we're going to try

  • to get through them in as specific a way as we possibly can.

  • But, first, Governor Romney, do you have a question that you'd like to ask the president

  • directly about something he just said?

  • ROMNEY: Well, sure. I'd like to clear up the record and go through it piece by piece.

  • First of all, I don't have a $5 trillion tax cut. I don't have a tax cut of a scale that

  • you're talking about. My view is that we ought to provide tax relief to people in the middle

  • class. But I'm not going to reduce the share of taxes paid by high-income people. High-income

  • people are doing just fine in this economy. They'll do fine whether you're president or

  • I am.

  • The people who are having the hard time right now are middle- income Americans. Under the

  • president's policies, middle-income Americans have been buried. They're just being crushed.

  • Middle- income Americans have seen their income come down by $4,300. This is a -- this is

  • a tax in and of itself. I'll call it the economy tax. It's been crushing.

  • At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up.

  • Food prices are up. Health care costs have gone up by $2,500 a family. Middle-income

  • families are being crushed.

  • ROMNEY: And so the question is how to get them going again. And I've described it. It's

  • energy and trade, the right kind of training programs, balancing our budget and helping

  • small business. Those are the -- the cornerstones of my plan.

  • But the president mentioned a couple of other ideas I'll just note. First, education. I

  • agree: Education is key, particularly the future of our economy. But our training programs

  • right now, we've got 47 of them, housed in the federal government, reporting to eight

  • different agencies. Overhead is overwhelming. We've got to get those dollars back to the

  • states and go to the workers so they can create their own pathways to get in the training

  • they need for jobs that will really help them.

  • The second area, taxation, we agree, we ought to bring the tax rates down. And I do, both

  • for corporations and for individuals. But in order for us not to lose revenue, have

  • the government run out of money, I also lower deductions and credits and exemptions, so

  • that we keep taking in the same money when you also account for growth.

  • The third area, energy. Energy is critical, and the president pointed out correctly that

  • production of oil and gas in the U.S. is up. But not due to his policies. In spite of his

  • policies.

  • Mr. President, all of the increase in natural gas and oil has happened on private land,

  • not on government land. On government land, your administration has cut the number of

  • permits and licenses in half. If I'm president, I'll double them, and also get the -- the

  • oil from offshore and Alaska. And I'll bring that pipeline in from Canada.

  • And, by the way, I like coal. I'm going to make sure we can continue to burn clean coal.

  • People in the coal industry feel like it's getting crushed by your policies. I want to

  • get America and North America energy independent so we can create those jobs.

  • And finally, with regards to that tax cut, look, I'm not looking to cut massive taxes

  • and to reduce the -- the revenues going to the government. My -- my number-one principal

  • is, there will be no tax cut that adds to the deficit. I want to underline that: no

  • tax cut that adds to the deficit.

  • But I do want to reduce the burden being paid by middle-income Americans. And I -- and to

  • do that, that also means I cannot reduce the burden paid by high-income Americans. So any

  • -- any language to the contrary is simply not accurate. LEHRER: Mr. President?

  • OBAMA: Well, I think -- let's talk about taxes, because I think it's instructive. Now, four

  • years ago, when I stood on this stage, I said that I would cut taxes for middle-class families.

  • And that's exactly what I did. We cut taxes for middle-class families by about $3,600.

  • And the reason is, because I believe that we do best when the middle class is doing

  • well. And by giving them those tax cuts, they had a little more money in their pocket, and

  • so maybe they can buy a new car. They are certainly in a better position to weather

  • the extraordinary recession that we went through. They can buy a computer for their kid who's

  • going off to college, which means they're spending more money, businesses have more

  • customers, businesses make more profits, and then hire more workers.

  • Now, Governor Romney's proposal that he has been promoting for 18 months calls for a $5

  • trillion tax cut, on top of $2 trillion of additional spending for our military. And

  • he is saying that he is going to pay for it by closing loopholes and deductions. The problem

  • is that he's been asked over 100 times how you would close those deductions and loopholes,

  • and he hasn't been able to identify them.

  • But I'm going to make an important point here, Jim.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • OBAMA: When you add up all the loopholes and deductions that upper-income individuals can

  • -- are currently taking advantage of, you take those all away, you don't come close

  • to paying for $5 trillion in tax cuts and $2 trillion in additional military spending.

  • OBAMA: And that's why independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet

  • Governor Romney's pledge of not reducing the deficit or -- or -- or not adding to the deficit

  • is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children

  • would pay about $2,000 more.

  • Now, that's not my analysis. That's the analysis of economists who have looked at this. And

  • -- and that kind of top -- top-down economics, where folks at the top are doing well, so

  • the average person making $3 million is getting a $250,000 tax break, while middle-class families

  • are burdened further, that's not what I believe is a recipe for economic growth.

  • LEHRER: All right. What is the difference? Let's just stay on taxes.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: Just -- let's just stay on taxes for (inaudible).

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: What is the difference...

  • ROMNEY: Well, but -- but virtually -- virtually everything he just said about my tax plan

  • is inaccurate.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • ROMNEY: So if the tax plan he described were a tax plan I was asked to support, I'd say

  • absolutely not. I'm not looking for a $5 trillion tax cut. What I've said is I won't put in

  • place a tax cut that adds to the deficit. That's part one. So there's no economist that

  • can say Mitt Romney's tax plan adds $5 trillion if I say I will not add to the deficit with

  • my tax plan.

  • Number two, I will not reduce the share paid by high-income individuals. I know that you

  • and your running mate keep saying that and I know it's a popular thing to say with a

  • lot of people, but it's just not the case. Look, I've got five boys. I'm used to people

  • saying something that's not always true, but just keep on repeating it and ultimately hoping

  • I'll believe it. But that -- that is not the case. All right? I will not reduce the taxes

  • paid by high-income Americans.

  • And number three, I will not under any circumstances raise taxes on middle-income families. I will

  • lower taxes on middle-income families. Now, you cite a study. There are six other studies

  • that looked at the study you describe and say it's completely wrong. I saw a study that

  • came out today that said you're going to raise taxes by $3,000 to $4,000 on middle-income

  • families.

  • There are all these studies out there. But let's get at the bottom line. That is, I want

  • to bring down rates. I want to bring the rates down, at the same time lower deductions and

  • exemptions and credits and so forth, so we keep getting the revenue we need. And you'd

  • think, well, then why lower the rates?

  • ROMNEY: And the reason is because small business pays that individual rate; 54 percent of America's

  • workers work in businesses that are taxed not at the corporate tax rate, but at the

  • individual tax rate. And if we lower that rate, they will be able to hire more people.

  • For me, this is about jobs. This is about getting jobs for the American people.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: That's where we started. Yeah.

  • Do you challenge what the governor just said about his own plan?

  • OBAMA: Well, for 18 months he's been running on this tax plan. And now, five weeks before

  • the election, he's saying that his big, bold idea is, "Never mind."

  • And the fact is that if you are lowering the rates the way you described, Governor, then

  • it is not possible to come up with enough deductions and loopholes that only affect

  • high-income individuals to avoid either raising the deficit or burdening the middle class.

  • It's -- it's math. It's arithmetic.

  • Now, Governor Romney and I do share a deep interest in encouraging small-business growth.

  • So at the same time that my tax plan has already lowered taxes for 98 percent of families,

  • I also lowered taxes for small businesses 18 times. And what I want to do is continue

  • the tax rates -- the tax cuts that we put into place for small businesses and families.

  • But I have said that for incomes over $250,000 a year, that we should go back to the rates

  • that we had when Bill Clinton was president, when we created 23 million new jobs, went

  • from deficit to surplus, and created a whole lot of millionaires to boot.

  • And the reason this is important is because by doing that, we cannot only reduce the deficit,

  • we cannot only encourage job growth through small businesses, but we're also able to make

  • the investments that are necessary in education or in energy.

  • OBAMA: And we do have a difference, though, when it comes to definitions of small business.

  • Under -- under my plan, 97 percent of small businesses would not see their income taxes

  • go up. Governor Romney says, well, those top 3 percent, they're the job creators, they'd

  • be burdened.

  • But under Governor Romney's definition, there are a whole bunch of millionaires and billionaires

  • who are small businesses. Donald Trump is a small business. Now, I know Donald Trump

  • doesn't like to think of himself as small anything, but -- but that's how you define

  • small businesses if you're getting business income.

  • And that kind of approach, I believe, will not grow our economy, because the only way

  • to pay for it without either burdening the middle class or blowing up our deficit is

  • to make drastic cuts in things like education, making sure that we are continuing to invest

  • in basic science and research, all the things that are helping America grow. And I think

  • that would be a mistake.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • ROMNEY: Jim, let me just come back on that -- on that point, which is these...

  • LEHRER: Just for the -- just for record...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: ... the small businesses we're talking about...

  • LEHRER: Excuse me. Excuse me. Just so everybody understands, we're way over our first 15 minutes.

  • ROMNEY: It's fun, isn't it?

  • LEHRER: It's OK, it's great. No problem. Well, you all don't have -- you don't have a problem,

  • I don't have a problem, because we're still on the economy. We're going to come back to

  • taxes. I want move on to the deficit and a lot of other things, too.

  • OK, but go ahead, sir.

  • ROMNEY: You bet. Well, President, you're -- Mr. President, you're absolutely right, which

  • is that, with regards to 97 percent of the businesses are not -- not taxed at the 35

  • percent tax rate, they're taxed at a lower rate. But those businesses that are in the

  • last 3 percent of businesses happen to employ half -- half of all the people who work in

  • small business. Those are the businesses that employ one-quarter of all the workers in America.

  • And your plan is to take their tax rate from 35 percent to 40 percent.

  • Now, and -- and I've talked to a guy who has a very small business. He's in the electronics

  • business in -- in St. Louis. He has four employees. He said he and his son calculated how much

  • they pay in taxes, federal income tax, federal payroll tax, state income tax, state sales

  • tax, state property tax, gasoline tax. It added up to well over 50 percent of what they

  • earned. And your plan is to take the tax rate on successful small businesses from 35 percent

  • to 40 percent. The National Federation of Independent Businesses has said that will

  • cost 700,000 jobs.

  • I don't want to cost jobs. My priority is jobs. And so what I do is I bring down the

  • tax rates, lower deductions and exemptions, the same idea behind Bowles-Simpson, by the

  • way, get the rates down, lower deductions and exemptions, to create more jobs, because

  • there's nothing better for getting us to a balanced budget than having more people working,

  • earning more money, paying more taxes. That's by far the most effective and efficient way

  • to get this budget balanced.

  • OBAMA: Jim, I -- you may want to move onto another topic, but I -- I would just say this

  • to the American people. If you believe that we can cut taxes by $5 trillion and add $2

  • trillion in additional spending that the military is not asking for, $7 trillion -- just to

  • give you a sense, over 10 years, that's more than our entire defense budget -- and you

  • think that by closing loopholes and deductions for the well-to-do, somehow you will not end

  • up picking up the tab, then Governor Romney's plan may work for you.

  • But I think math, common sense, and our history shows us that's not a recipe for job growth.

  • Look, we've tried this. We've tried both approaches. The approach that Governor Romney's talking

  • about is the same sales pitch that was made in 2001 and 2003, and we ended up with the

  • slowest job growth in 50 years, we ended up moving from surplus to deficits, and it all

  • culminated in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

  • OBAMA: Bill Clinton tried the approach that I'm talking about. We created 23 million new

  • jobs. We went from deficit to surplus. And businesses did very well. So, in some ways,

  • we've got some data on which approach is more likely to create jobs and opportunity for

  • Americans and I believe that the economy works best when middle-class families are getting

  • tax breaks so that they've got some money in their pockets, and those of us who have

  • done extraordinarily well because of this magnificent country that we live in, that

  • we can afford to do a little bit more to make sure we're not blowing up the deficit.

  • ROMNEY: Jim, the president began this segment, so I think I get the last word.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: Well, you're going to get the first word in the next segment.

  • ROMNEY: All right. Well, but he gets the first word of that segment. I get the last word

  • (inaudible) I hope. Let me just make this comment.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: I think first of all, let me -- let me repeat -- let me repeat what I said. I'm

  • not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. That's not my plan. My plan is not to put in place

  • any tax cut that will add to the deficit. That's point one.

  • So you may keep referring to it as a $5 trillion tax cut, but that's not my plan.

  • Number two, let's look at history. My plan is not like anything that's been tried before.

  • My plan is to bring down rates, but also bring down deductions and exemptions and credits

  • at the same time so the revenue stays in, but that we bring down rates to get more people

  • working.

  • My priority is putting people back to work in America. They're suffering in this country.

  • And we talk about evidence. Look at the evidence of the last four years. It's absolutely extraordinary.

  • We've got 23 million people out of work or stopped looking for work in this country.

  • It's just -- it's -- we've got -- when the president took office, 32 million people on

  • food stamps; 47 million on food stamps today; economic growth this year slower than last

  • year, and last year slower than the year before.

  • Going forward with the status quo is not going to cut it for the American people who are

  • struggling today.

  • LEHRER: All right. Let's talk -- we're still on the economy. This is, theoretically now,

  • a second segment still on the economy, and specifically on what to do about the federal

  • deficit, the federal debt.

  • And the question, you each have two minutes on this, and Governor Romney, you -- you go

  • first because the president went first on segment one. And the question is this, what

  • are the differences between the two of you as to how you would go about tackling the

  • deficit problem in this country?

  • ROMNEY: Good. I'm glad you raised that, and it's a -- it's a critical issue. I think it's

  • not just an economic issue, I think it's a moral issue. I think it's, frankly, not moral

  • for my generation to keep spending massively more than we take in, knowing those burdens

  • are going to be passed on to the next generation and they're going to be paying the interest

  • and the principal all their lives.

  • And the amount of debt we're adding, at a trillion a year, is simply not moral.

  • So how do we deal with it? Well, mathematically, there are three ways that you can cut a deficit.

  • One, of course, is to raise taxes. Number two is to cut spending. And number is to grow

  • the economy, because if more people work in a growing economy, they're paying taxes, and

  • you can get the job done that way.

  • The presidents would -- president would prefer raising taxes. I understand. The problem with

  • raising taxes is that it slows down the rate of growth. And you could never quite get the

  • job done. I want to lower spending and encourage economic growth at the same time.

  • What things would I cut from spending? Well, first of all, I will eliminate all programs

  • by this test, if they don't pass it: Is the program so critical it's worth borrowing money

  • from China to pay for it? And if not, I'll get rid of it. Obamacare's on my list.

  • I apologize, Mr. President. I use that term with all respect, by the way.

  • OBAMA: I like it.

  • ROMNEY: Good. OK, good. So I'll get rid of that.

  • I'm sorry, Jim, I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. I'm going to stop other things. I

  • like PBS, I love Big Bird. Actually like you, too. But I'm not going to -- I'm not going

  • to keep on spending money on things to borrow money from China to pay for. That's number

  • one.

  • Number two, I'll take programs that are currently good programs but I think could be run more

  • efficiently at the state level and send them to the state.

  • ROMNEY: Number three, I'll make government more efficient and to cut back the number

  • of employees, combine some agencies and departments. My cutbacks will be done through attrition,

  • by the way.

  • This is the approach we have to take to get America to a balanced budget.

  • The president said he'd cut the deficit in half. Unfortunately, he doubled it. Trillion-dollar

  • deficits for the last four years. The president's put it in place as much public debt -- almost

  • as much debt held by the public as al prior presidents combined.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President, two minutes.

  • OBAMA: When I walked into the Oval Office, I had more than a trillion-dollar deficit

  • greeting me. And we know where it came from: two wars that were paid for on a credit card;

  • two tax cuts that were not paid for; and a whole bunch of programs that were not paid

  • for; and then a massive economic crisis.

  • And despite that, what we've said is, yes, we had to take some initial emergency measures

  • to make sure we didn't slip into a Great Depression, but what we've also said is, let's make sure

  • that we are cutting out those things that are not helping us grow.

  • So 77 government programs, everything from aircrafts that the Air Force had ordered but

  • weren't working very well, 18 government -- 18 government programs for education that were

  • well-intentioned, not weren't helping kids learn, we went after medical fraud in Medicare

  • and Medicaid very aggressively, more aggressively than ever before, and have saved tens of billions

  • of dollars, $50 billion of waste taken out of the system.

  • And I worked with Democrats and Republicans to cut a trillion dollars out of our discretionary

  • domestic budget. That's the largest cut in the discretionary domestic budget since Dwight

  • Eisenhower.

  • Now, we all know that we've got to do more. And so I've put forward a specific $4 trillion

  • deficit reduction plan. It's on a website. You can look at all the numbers, what cuts

  • we make and what revenue we raise.

  • And the way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 of additional revenue, paid

  • for, as I indicated earlier, by asking those of us who have done very well in this country

  • to contribute a little bit more to reduce the deficit. Governor Romney earlier mentioned

  • the Bowles-Simpson commission. Well, that's how the commission -- bipartisan commission

  • that talked about how we should move forward suggested we have to do it, in a balanced

  • way with some revenue and some spending cuts. And this is a major difference that Governor

  • Romney and I have.

  • Let -- let me just finish their point, because you're looking for contrast. You know, when

  • Governor Romney stood on a stage with other Republican candidates for the nomination and

  • he was asked, would you take $10 of spending cuts for just $1 of revenue? And he said no.

  • Now, if you take such an unbalanced approach, then that means you are going to be gutting

  • our investments in schools and education. It means that Governor Romney...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • OBAMA: ... talked about Medicaid and how we could send it back to the states, but effectively

  • this means a 30 percent cut in the primary program we help for seniors who are in nursing

  • homes, for kids who are with disabilities.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President, I'm sorry.

  • OBAMA: And -- and that is not a right strategy for us to move forward.

  • LEHRER: Way over the two minutes.

  • OBAMA: Sorry.

  • LEHRER: Governor, what about Simpson-Bowles? Do you support Simpson-Bowles?

  • ROMNEY: Simpson-Bowles, the president should have grabbed that.

  • LEHRER: No, I mean, do you support Simpson-Bowles?

  • ROMNEY: I have my own plan. It's not the same as Simpson- Bowles. But in my view, the president

  • should have grabbed it. If you wanted to make some adjustments to it, take it, go to Congress,

  • fight for it.

  • OBAMA: That's what we've done, made some adjustments to it, and we're putting it forward before

  • Congress right now, a $4 trillion plan...

  • ROMNEY: But you've been -- but you've been president four years...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: You've been president four years. You said you'd cut the deficit in half. It's

  • now four years later. We still have trillion-dollar deficits. The CBO says we'll have a trillion-dollar

  • deficit each of the next four years. If you're re-elected, we'll get to a trillion-dollar

  • debt.

  • ROMNEY: I mean, you have said before you'd cut the deficit in half. And this -- I love

  • this idea of $4 trillion in cuts. You found $4 trillion of ways to reduce or to get closer

  • to a balanced budget, except we still show trillion-dollar deficits every year. That

  • doesn't get the job done.

  • Let me come back and say, why is it that I don't want to raise taxes? Why don't I want

  • to raise taxes on people? And actually, you said it back in 2010. You said, "Look, I'm

  • going to extend the tax policies that we have now; I'm not going to raise taxes on anyone,

  • because when the economy is growing slow like this, when we're in recession, you shouldn't

  • raise taxes on anyone."

  • Well, the economy is still growing slow. As a matter of fact, it's growing much more slowly

  • now than when you made that statement. And so if you believe the same thing, you just

  • don't want to raise taxes on people. And the reality is it's not just wealthy people -- you

  • mentioned Donald Trump. It's not just Donald Trump you're taxing. It's all those businesses

  • that employ one-quarter of the workers in America; these small businesses that are taxed

  • as individuals.

  • You raise taxes and you kill jobs. That's why the National Federation of Independent

  • Businesses said your plan will kill 700,000 jobs. I don't want to kill jobs in this environment.

  • I'll make one more point.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: (inaudible) answer the taxes thing for a moment.

  • ROMNEY: OK.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President?

  • OBAMA: Well, we've had this discussion before.

  • LEHRER: About the idea that in order to reduce the deficit, there has to be revenue in addition

  • to cuts.

  • OBAMA: There has to be revenue in addition to cuts. Now, Governor Romney has ruled out

  • revenue. He's ruled out revenue.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: Absolutely. (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: Look, the revenue I get is by more people working, getting higher pay, paying

  • more taxes. That's how we get growth and how we balance the budget. But the idea of taxing

  • people more, putting more people out of work, you'll never get there. You'll never balance

  • the budget by raising taxes.

  • Spain -- Spain spends 42 percent of their total economy on government. We're now spending

  • 42 percent of our economy on government. I don't want to go down the path to Spain. I

  • want to go down the path of growth that puts Americans to work with more money coming in

  • because they're working.

  • LEHRER: But -- but Mr. President, you're saying in order to -- to get the job done, it's got

  • to be balanced. You've got to have...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • OBAMA: If -- if we're serious, we've got to take a balanced, responsible approach. And

  • by the way, this is not just when it comes to individual taxes. Let's talk about corporate

  • taxes.

  • Now, I've identified areas where we can, right away, make a change that I believe would actually

  • help the economy.

  • The oil industry gets $4 billion a year in corporate welfare. Basically, they get deductions

  • that those small businesses that Governor Romney refers to, they don't get.

  • Now, does anybody think that ExxonMobil needs some extra money, when they're making money

  • every time you go to the pump? Why wouldn't we want to eliminate that? Why wouldn't we

  • eliminate tax breaks for corporate jets? My attitude is, if you got a corporate jet, you

  • can probably afford to pay full freight, not get a special break for it.

  • When it comes to corporate taxes, Governor Romney has said he wants to, in a revenue

  • neutral way, close loopholes, deductions -- he hasn't identified which ones they are -- but

  • that thereby bring down the corporate rate.

  • Well, I want to do the same thing, but I've actually identified how we can do that. And

  • part of the way to do it is to not give tax breaks to companies that are shipping jobs

  • overseas.

  • Right now, you can actually take a deduction for moving a plant overseas. I think most

  • Americans would say that doesn't make sense. And all that raises revenue.

  • And so if we take a balanced approach, what that then allows us to do is also to help

  • young people, the way we already have during my administration, make sure that they can

  • afford to go to college.

  • OBAMA: It means that the teacher that I met in Las Vegas, a wonderful young lady, who

  • describes to me -- she's got 42 kids in her class. The first two weeks she's got them,

  • some of them sitting on the floor until finally they get reassigned. They're using text books

  • that are 10 years old.

  • That is not a recipe for growth. That's not how America was built. And so budgets reflect

  • choices.

  • Ultimately, we're going to have to make some decisions. And if we're asking for no revenue,

  • then that means that we've got to get rid of a whole bunch of stuff.

  • And the magnitude of the tax cuts that you're talking about, Governor, would end up resulting

  • in severe hardship for people, but more importantly, would not help us grow.

  • As I indicated before, when you talk about shifting Medicaid to states, we're talking

  • about potentially a 30 -- a 30 percent cut in Medicaid over time.

  • Now, you know, that may not seem like a big deal when it just is, you know, numbers on

  • a sheet of paper, but if we're talking about a family who's got an autistic kid and is

  • depending on that Medicaid, that's a big problem.

  • And governors are creative. There's no doubt about it. But they're not creative enough

  • to make up for 30 percent of revenue on something like Medicaid. What ends up happening is some

  • people end up not getting help.

  • ROMNEY: Jim, let's -- we've gone on a lot of topics there, and so it's going to take

  • a minute to go from Medicaid to schools...

  • LEHRER: Come back to...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: ... to oil, to tax breaks, then companies going overseas. So let's go through them one

  • by one.

  • First of all, the Department of Energy has said the tax break for oil companies is $2.8

  • billion a year. And it's actually an accounting treatment, as you know, that's been in place

  • for a hundred years. Now...

  • OBAMA: It's time to end it.

  • ROMNEY: And in one year, you provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world.

  • Now, I like green energy as well, but that's about 50 years' worth of what oil and gas

  • receives. And you say Exxon and Mobil. Actually, this $2.8 billion goes largely to small companies,

  • to drilling operators and so forth.

  • ROMNEY: But, you know, if we get that tax rate from 35 percent down to 25 percent, why

  • that $2.8 billion is on the table. Of course it's on the table. That's probably not going

  • to survive you get that rate down to 25 percent.

  • But don't forget, you put $90 billion, like 50 years' worth of breaks, into -- into solar

  • and wind, to Solyndra and Fisker and Tester and Ener1. I mean, I had a friend who said

  • you don't just pick the winners and losers, you pick the losers, all right? So this -- this

  • is not -- this is not the kind of policy you want to have if you want to get America energy

  • secure.

  • The second topic, which is you said you get a deduction for taking a plant overseas. Look,

  • I've been in business for 25 years. I have no idea what you're talking about. I maybe

  • need to get a new accountant.

  • LEHRER: Let's...

  • ROMNEY: But -- but the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply

  • not the case.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: What we do have right now is a setting where I'd like to bring money from overseas

  • back to this country.

  • And, finally, Medicaid to states? I'm not quite sure where that came in, except this,

  • which is, I would like to take the Medicaid dollars that go to states and say to a state,

  • you're going to get what you got last year, plus inflation, plus 1 percent, and then you're

  • going to manage your care for your poor in the way you think best.

  • And I remember, as a governor, when this idea was floated by Tommy Thompson, the governors

  • -- Republican and Democrats -- said, please let us do that. We can care for our own poor

  • in so much better and more effective a way than having the federal government tell us

  • how to care for our poor.

  • So -- so let's state -- one of the magnificent things about this country is the whole idea

  • that states are the laboratories of democracy. Don't have the federal government tell everybody

  • what kind of training programs they have to have and what kind of Medicaid they have to

  • have. Let states do this.

  • And, by the way, if a state gets in trouble, well, we can step in and see if we can find

  • a way to help them.

  • LEHRER: Let's go.

  • ROMNEY: But -- but the right -- the right approach is one which relies on the brilliance

  • of our people and states, not the federal government.

  • LEHRER: (inaudible) and we're going on -- still on the economy, on another -- but another

  • part of it...

  • OBAMA: OK.

  • LEHRER: All right? All right. This is segment three, the economy. Entitlements. First -- first

  • answer goes to you, two minutes, Mr. President. Do you see a major difference between the

  • two of you on Social Security?

  • OBAMA: You know, I suspect that, on Social Security, we've got a somewhat similar position.

  • Social Security is structurally sound. It's going to have to be tweaked the way it was

  • by Ronald Reagan and Speaker -- Democratic Speaker Tip O'Neill. But it is -- the basic

  • structure is sound.

  • But -- but I want to talk about the values behind Social Security and Medicare, and then

  • talk about Medicare, because that's the big driver of our deficits right now.

  • You know, my grandmother -- some of you know -- helped to raise me. My grandparents did.

  • My grandfather died a while back. My grandmother died three days before I was elected president.

  • And she was fiercely independent. She worked her way up, only had a high school education,

  • started as a secretary, ended up being the vice president of a local bank. And she ended

  • up living alone by choice.

  • And the reason she could be independent was because of Social Security and Medicare. She

  • had worked all her life, put in this money, and understood that there was a basic guarantee,

  • a floor under which she could not go.

  • And that's the perspective I bring when I think about what's called entitlements. You

  • know, the name itself implies some sense of dependency on the part of these folks. These

  • are folks who've worked hard, like my grandmother, and there are millions of people out there

  • who are counting on this.

  • OBAMA: So my approach is to say, how do we strengthen the system over the long term?

  • And in Medicare, what we did was we said, we are going to have to bring down the costs

  • if we're going to deal with our long-term deficits, but to do that, let's look where

  • some of the money's going.

  • $716 billion we were able to save from the Medicare program by no longer overpaying insurance

  • companies by making sure that we weren't overpaying providers. And using that money, we were actually

  • able to lower prescription drug costs for seniors by an average of $600, and we were

  • also able to make a -- make a significant dent in providing them the kind of preventive

  • care that will ultimately save money through the -- throughout the system.

  • So the way for us to deal with Medicare in particular is to lower health care costs.

  • When it comes to Social Security, as I said, you don't need a major structural change in

  • order to make sure that Social Security is there for the future.

  • LEHRER: We'll follow up on this.

  • First, Governor Romney, you have two minutes on Social Security and entitlements.

  • ROMNEY: Well, Jim, our seniors depend on these programs, and I know anytime we talk about

  • entitlements, people become concerned that something's going to happen that's going to

  • change their life for the worse.

  • And the answer is neither the president nor I are proposing any changes for any current

  • retirees or near retirees, either to Social Security or Medicare. So if you're 60 or around

  • 60 or older, you don't need to listen any further.

  • But for younger people, we need to talk about what changes are going to be occurring. Oh,

  • I just thought about one. And that is, in fact, I was wrong when I said the president

  • isn't proposing any changes for current retirees. In fact he is on Medicare. On Social Security

  • he's not.

  • But on Medicare, for current retirees, he's cutting $716 billion from the program. Now,

  • he says by not overpaying hospitals and providers. Actually just going to them and saying, "We're

  • going to reduce the rates you get paid across the board, everybody's going to get a lower

  • rate." That's not just going after places where there's abuse. That's saying we're cutting

  • the rates. Some 15 percent of hospitals and nursing homes say they won't take anymore

  • Medicare patients under that scenario.

  • We also have 50 percent of doctors who say they won't take more Medicare patients.

  • This -- we have 4 million people on Medicare Advantage that will lose Medicare Advantage

  • because of those $716 billion in cuts. I can't understand how you can cut Medicare $716 billion

  • for current recipients of Medicare.

  • Now, you point out, well, we're putting some back. We're going to give a better prescription

  • program. That's $1 -- that's $1 for every $15 you've cut. They're smart enough to know

  • that's not a good trade.

  • I want to take that $716 billion you've cut and put it back into Medicare. By the way,

  • we can include a prescription program if we need to improve it.

  • But the idea of cutting $716 billion from Medicare to be able to balance the additional

  • cost of Obamacare is, in my opinion, a mistake.

  • And with regards to young people coming along, I've got proposals to make sure Medicare and

  • Social Security are there for them without any question.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President?

  • OBAMA: First of all, I think it's important for Governor Romney to present this plan that

  • he says will only affect folks in the future.

  • And the essence of the plan is that you would turn Medicare into a voucher program. It's

  • called premium support, but it's understood to be a voucher program. His running mate...

  • LEHRER: And you don't support that?

  • OBAMA: I don't. And let me explain why.

  • ROMNEY: Again, that's for future...

  • OBAMA: I understand.

  • ROMNEY: ... people, right, not for current retirees.

  • OBAMA: For -- so if you're -- if you're 54 or 55, you might want to listen 'cause this

  • -- this will affect you.

  • The idea, which was originally presented by Congressman Ryan, your running mate, is that

  • we would give a voucher to seniors and they could go out in the private marketplace and

  • buy their own health insurance.

  • The problem is that because the voucher wouldn't necessarily keep up with health care inflation,

  • it was estimated that this would cost the average senior about $6,000 a year.

  • Now, in fairness, what Governor Romney has now said is he'll maintain traditional Medicare

  • alongside it. But there's still a problem, because what happens is, those insurance companies

  • are pretty clever at figuring out who are the younger and healthier seniors. They recruit

  • them, leaving the older, sicker seniors in Medicare. And every health care economist

  • that looks at it says, over time, what'll happen is the traditional Medicare system

  • will collapse.

  • OBAMA: And then what you've got is folks like my grandmother at the mercy of the private

  • insurance system precisely at the time when they are most in need of decent health care.

  • So, I don't think vouchers are the right way to go. And this is not my own -- only my opinion.

  • AARP thinks that the -- the savings that we obtained from Medicare bolster the system,

  • lengthen the Medicare trust fund by eight years. Benefits were not affected at all.

  • And ironically, if you repeal Obamacare, and I have become fond of this term, "Obamacare,"

  • if you repeal it, what happens is those seniors right away are going to be paying $600 more

  • in prescription care. They're now going to have to be paying copays for basic checkups

  • that can keep them healthier.

  • And the primary beneficiary of that repeal are insurance companies that are estimated

  • to gain billions of dollars back when they aren't making seniors any healthier. And I

  • don't think that's the right approach when it comes to making sure that Medicare is stronger

  • over the long term.

  • LEHRER: We'll talk about -- specifically about health care in a moment. But what -- do you

  • support the voucher system, Governor?

  • ROMNEY: What I support is no change for current retirees and near-retirees to Medicare. And

  • the president supports taking $716 billion out of that program.

  • LEHRER: And what about the vouchers?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: So that's -- that's number one.

  • Number two is for people coming along that are young, what I do to make sure that we

  • can keep Medicare in place for them is to allow them either to choose the current Medicare

  • program or a private plan. Their choice.

  • They get to choose -- and they'll have at least two plans that will be entirely at no

  • cost to them. So they don't have to pay additional money, no additional $6,000. That's not going

  • to happen. They'll have at least two plans.

  • ROMNEY: And by the way, if the government can be as efficient as the private sector

  • and offer premiums that are as low as the private sector, people will be happy to get

  • traditional Medicare or they'll be able to get a private plan.

  • I know my own view is I'd rather have a private plan. I'd just assume not have the government

  • telling me what kind of health care I get. I'd rather be able to have an insurance company.

  • If I don't like them, I can get rid of them and find a different insurance company. But

  • people make their own choice.

  • The other thing we have to do to save Medicare? We have to have the benefits high for those

  • that are low income, but for higher income people, we're going to have to lower some

  • of the benefits. We have to make sure this program is there for the long term. That's

  • the plan that I've put forward.

  • And, by the way the idea came not even from Paul Ryan or -- or Senator Wyden, who's the

  • co-author of the bill with -- with Paul Ryan in the Senate, but also it came from Bill

  • -- Bill Clinton's chief of staff. This is an idea that's been around a long time, which

  • is saying, hey, let's see if we can't get competition into the Medicare world so that

  • people can get the choice of different plans at lower cost, better quality. I believe in

  • competition.

  • OBAMA: Jim, if I -- if I can just respond very quickly, first of all, every study has

  • shown that Medicare has lower administrative costs than private insurance does, which is

  • why seniors are generally pretty happy with it.

  • And private insurers have to make a profit. Nothing wrong with that. That's what they

  • do. And so you've got higher administrative costs, plus profit on top of that. And if

  • you are going to save any money through what Governor Romney's proposing, what has to happen

  • is, is that the money has to come from somewhere.

  • And when you move to a voucher system, you are putting seniors at the mercy of those

  • insurance companies. And over time, if traditional Medicare has decayed or fallen apart, then

  • they're stuck.

  • And this is the reason why AARP has said that your plan would weaken Medicare substantially.

  • And that's why they were supportive of the approach that we took.

  • One last point I want to make. We do have to lower the cost of health care, not just

  • in Medicare and Medicaid... LEHRER: Talk about that in a minute.

  • OBAMA: ... but -- but -- but overall.

  • LEHRER: OK.

  • OBAMA: And so...

  • ROMNEY: That's -- that's a big topic. Can we -- can we stay on Medicare?

  • OBAMA: Is that a -- is that a separate topic?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: Yeah, we're going to -- yeah, I want to get to it.

  • OBAMA: I'm sorry.

  • LEHRER: But all I want to do is go very quickly...

  • ROMNEY: Let's get back to Medicare.

  • LEHRER: ... before we leave the economy...

  • ROMNEY: Let's get back to Medicare.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: The president said that the government can provide the service at lower cost and

  • without a profit.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • ROMNEY: If that's the case, then it will always be the best product that people can purchase.

  • LEHRER: Wait a minute, Governor.

  • ROMNEY: But my experience -- my experience the private sector typically is able to provide

  • a better product at a lower cost.

  • LEHRER: All right. Can we -- can the two of you agree that the voters have a choice -- a

  • clear choice between the two...

  • ROMNEY: Absolutely.

  • LEHRER: ... of you on Medicare?

  • ROMNEY: Absolutely.

  • OBAMA: Absolutely.

  • LEHRER: All right. So to finish quickly, briefly, on the economy, what is your view about the

  • level of federal regulation of the economy right now? Is there too much? And in your

  • case, Mr. President, is there -- should there be more?

  • Beginning with you. This is not a new two-minute segment to start. And we'll go for a few minutes,

  • and then we're going to go to health care, OK?

  • ROMNEY: Regulation is essential. You can't have a free market work if you don't have

  • regulation. As a businessperson, I had to have -- I need to know the regulations. I

  • needed them there. You couldn't have people opening up banks in their -- in their garage

  • and making loans. I mean, you have to have regulations so that you can have an economy

  • work. Every free economy has good regulation. At the same time, regulation can become excessive.

  • LEHRER: Is it excessive now, do you think?

  • ROMNEY: In some places, yes. Other places, no.

  • LEHRER: Like where?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: No, it can become out of date. And what's happened with some of the legislation

  • that's been passed during the president's term, you've seen regulation become excessive,

  • and it's hurt -- it's hurt the economy. Let me give you an example.

  • Dodd-Frank was passed. And it includes within it a number of provisions that I think has

  • some unintended consequences that are harmful to the economy. One is it designates a number

  • of banks as too big to fail, and they're effectively guaranteed by the federal government. This

  • is the biggest kiss that's been given to -- to New York banks I've ever seen. This is an

  • enormous boon for them. There've been 122 community and small banks have closed since

  • Dodd- Frank.

  • So there's one example. Here's another. In Dodd-Frank...

  • LEHRER: Do you want to repeal Dodd-Frank?

  • ROMNEY: Well, I would repeal and replace it. We're not going to get rid of all regulation.

  • You have to have regulation. And there are some parts of Dodd-Frank that make all the

  • sense in the world. You need transparency, you need to have leverage limits for...

  • LEHRER: Well, here's a specific...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: But let's -- let's mention -- let me mention the other one. Let's talk...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: No, let's not. Let's let him respond -- let's let him respond to this specific

  • on Dodd-Frank and what the governor just said.

  • OBAMA: I think this is a great example. The reason we have been in such a enormous economic

  • crisis was prompted by reckless behavior across the board.

  • Now, it wasn't just on Wall Street. You had loan officers were -- that were giving loans

  • and mortgages that really shouldn't have been given, because the folks didn't qualify. You

  • had people who were borrowing money to buy a house that they couldn't afford. You had

  • credit agencies that were stamping these as A1 great investments when they weren't.

  • But you also had banks making money hand over fist, churning out products that the bankers

  • themselves didn't even understand, in order to make big profits, but knowing that it made

  • the entire system vulnerable.

  • So what did we do? We stepped in and had the toughest reforms on Wall Street since the

  • 1930s. We said you've got -- banks, you've got to raise your capital requirements. You

  • can't engage in some of this risky behavior that is putting Main Street at risk. We've

  • going to make sure that you've got to have a living will so -- so we can know how you're

  • going to wind things down if you make a bad bet so we don't have other taxpayer bailouts.

  • OBAMA: In the meantime, by the way, we also made sure that all the help that we provided

  • those banks was paid back every single dime, with interest.

  • Now, Governor Romney has said he wants to repeal Dodd-Frank.

  • And, you know, I appreciate and it appears we've got some agreement that a marketplace

  • to work has to have some regulation. But in the past, Governor Romney has said he just

  • want to repeal Dodd- Frank, roll it back.

  • And so the question is: Does anybody out there think that the big problem we had is that

  • there was too much oversight and regulation of Wall Street? Because if you do, then Governor

  • Romney is your candidate. But that's not what I believe.

  • ROMNEY: Sorry, but that's just not -- that's just not the facts. Look, we have to have

  • regulation on Wall Street. That's why I'd have regulation. But I wouldn't designate

  • five banks as too big to fail and give them a blank check. That's one of the unintended

  • consequences of Dodd-Frank. It wasn't thought through properly. We need to get rid of that

  • provision because it's killing regional and small banks. They're getting hurt.

  • Let me mention another regulation in Dodd-Frank. You say we were giving mortgages to people

  • who weren't qualified. That's exactly right. It's one of the reasons for the great financial

  • calamity we had. And so Dodd-Frank correctly says we need to have qualified mortgages,

  • and if you give a mortgage that's not qualified, there are big penalties, except they didn't

  • ever go on and define what a qualified mortgage was.

  • It's been two years. We don't know what a qualified mortgage is yet. So banks are reluctant

  • to make loans, mortgages. Try and get a mortgage these days. It's hurt the housing market because

  • Dodd-Frank didn't anticipate putting in place the kinds of regulations you have to have.

  • It's not that Dodd-Frank always was wrong with too much regulation. Sometimes they didn't

  • come out with a clear regulation.

  • I will make sure we don't hurt the functioning of our -- of our marketplace and our business,

  • because I want to bring back housing and get good jobs.

  • LEHRER: All right. I think we have another clear difference between the two of you. Now,

  • let's move to health care where I know there is a clear difference, and that has to do

  • with the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare. And it's a two-minute new -- new segment, and

  • that means two minutes each. And you go first, Governor Romney.

  • LEHRER: You want it repealed. You want the Affordable Care Act repealed. Why?

  • ROMNEY: I sure do. Well, in part, it comes, again, from my experience. You know, I was

  • in New Hampshire. A woman came to me and she said, look, I can't afford insurance for myself

  • or my son. I met a couple in Appleton, Wisconsin, and they said, we're thinking of dropping

  • our insurance, we can't afford it.

  • And the number of small businesses I've gone to that are saying they're dropping insurance

  • because they can't afford it, the cost of health care is just prohibitive. And -- and

  • we've got to deal with cost.

  • And, unfortunately, when -- when -- when you look at Obamacare, the Congressional Budget

  • Office has said it will cost $2,500 a year more than traditional insurance. So it's adding

  • to cost. And as a matter of fact, when the president ran for office, he said that, by

  • this year, he would have brought down the cost of insurance for each family by $2,500

  • a family. Instead, it's gone up by that amount. So it's expensive. Expensive things hurt families.

  • So that's one reason I don't want it.

  • Second reason, it cuts $716 billion from Medicare to pay for it. I want to put that money back

  • in Medicare for our seniors.

  • Number three, it puts in place an unelected board that's going to tell people ultimately

  • what kind of treatments they can have. I don't like that idea.

  • Fourth, there was a survey done of small businesses across the country, said, what's been the

  • effect of Obamacare on your hiring plans? And three-quarters of them said it makes us

  • less likely to hire people. I just don't know how the president could have come into office,

  • facing 23 million people out of work, rising unemployment, an economic crisis at the -- at

  • the kitchen table, and spend his energy and passion for two years fighting for Obamacare

  • instead of fighting for jobs for the American people. It has killed jobs.

  • And the best course for health care is to do what we did in my state: craft a plan at

  • the state level that fits the needs of the state. And then let's focus on getting the

  • costs down for people, rather than raising it with the $2,500 additional premium.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President, the argument against repeal? OBAMA: Well, four years ago, when

  • I was running for office, I was traveling around and having those same conversations

  • that Governor Romney talks about. And it wasn't just that small businesses were seeing costs

  • skyrocket and they couldn't get affordable coverage even if they wanted to provide it

  • to their employees. It wasn't just that this was the biggest driver of our federal deficit,

  • our overall health care costs, but it was families who were worried about going bankrupt

  • if they got sick, millions of families, all across the country.

  • If they had a pre-existing condition, they might not be able to get coverage at all.

  • If they did have coverage, insurance companies might impose an arbitrary limit. And so as

  • a consequence, they're paying their premiums, somebody gets really sick, lo and behold,

  • they don't have enough money to pay the bills, because the insurance companies say that they've

  • hit the limit.

  • So we did work on this, alongside working on jobs, because this is part of making sure

  • that middle-class families are secure in this country.

  • And let me tell you exactly what Obamacare did. Number one, if you've got health insurance,

  • it doesn't mean a government takeover. You keep your own insurance. You keep your own

  • doctor. But it does say insurance companies can't jerk you around. They can't impose arbitrary

  • lifetime limits. They have to let you keep your kid on their insurance -- your insurance

  • plan until you're 26 years old. And it also says that you're going to have to get rebates

  • if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they

  • are on actual care.

  • Number two, if you don't have health insurance, we're essentially setting up a group plan

  • that allows you to benefit from group rates that are typically 18 percent lower than if

  • you're out there trying to get insurance on the individual market.

  • Now, the last point I'd make before...

  • LEHRER: Two minutes -- two minutes is up, sir.

  • OBAMA: No, I think -- I had five seconds before you interrupted me, was ...

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • ... the irony is that we've seen this model work really well in Massachusetts, because

  • Governor Romney did a good thing, working with Democrats in the state to set up what

  • is essentially the identical model and as a consequence people are covered there. It

  • hasn't destroyed jobs. And as a consequence, we now have a system in which we have the

  • opportunity to start bringing down costs, as opposed to just leaving millions of people

  • out in the cold.

  • LEHRER: Your five seconds went away a long time ago.

  • All right, Governor. Governor, tell -- tell the president directly why you think what

  • he just said is wrong about Obamacare?

  • ROMNEY: Well, I did with my first statement.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: First of all, I like the way we did it in Massachusetts. I like the fact that

  • in my state, we had Republicans and Democrats come together and work together. What you

  • did instead was to push through a plan without a single Republican vote. As a matter of fact,

  • when Massachusetts did something quite extraordinary -- elected a Republican senator to stop Obamacare,

  • you pushed it through anyway.

  • So entirely on a partisan basis, instead of bringing America together and having a discussion

  • on this important topic, you pushed through something that you and Nancy Pelosi and Harry

  • Reid thought was the best answer and drove it through.

  • What we did in a legislature 87 percent Democrat, we worked together; 200 legislators in my

  • legislature, only two voted against the plan by the time we were finished. What were some

  • differences? We didn't raise taxes. You've raised them by $1 trillion under Obamacare.

  • We didn't cut Medicare. Of course, we don't have Medicare, but we didn't cut Medicare

  • by $716 billion.

  • ROMNEY: We didn't put in place a board that can tell people ultimately what treatments

  • they're going to receive. We didn't also do something that I think a number of people

  • across this country recognize, which is put -- put people in a position where they're

  • going to lose the insurance they had and they wanted.

  • Right now, the CBO says up to 20 million people will lose their insurance as Obamacare goes

  • into effect next year. And likewise, a study by McKinsey and Company of American businesses

  • said 30 percent of them are anticipating dropping people from coverage.

  • So for those reasons, for the tax, for Medicare, for this board, and for people losing their

  • insurance, this is why the American people don't want Medicare -- don't want Obamacare.

  • It's why Republicans said, do not do this, and the Republicans had -- had the plan. They

  • put a plan out. They put out a plan, a bipartisan plan. It was swept aside.

  • I think something this big, this important has to be done on a bipartisan basis. And

  • we have to have a president who can reach across the aisle and fashion important legislation

  • with the input from both parties.

  • OBAMA: Governor Romney said this has to be done on a bipartisan basis. This was a bipartisan

  • idea. In fact, it was a Republican idea. And Governor Romney at the beginning of this debate

  • wrote and said what we did in Massachusetts could be a model for the nation.

  • And I agree that the Democratic legislators in Massachusetts might have given some advice

  • to Republicans in Congress about how to cooperate, but the fact of the matter is, we used the

  • same advisers, and they say it's the same plan.

  • It -- when Governor Romney talks about this board, for example, unelected board that we've

  • created, what this is, is a group of health care experts, doctors, et cetera, to figure

  • out, how can we reduce the cost of care in the system overall?

  • Because there -- there are two ways of dealing with our health care crisis. One is to simply

  • leave a whole bunch of people uninsured and let them fend for themselves, to let businesses

  • figure out how long they can continue to pay premiums until finally they just give up,

  • and their workers are no longer getting insured, and that's been the trend line.

  • Or, alternatively, we can figure out, how do we make the cost of care more effective?

  • And there are ways of doing it.

  • So at Cleveland Clinic, one of the best health care systems in the world, they actually provide

  • great care cheaper than average. And the reason they do is because they do some smart things.

  • They -- they say, if a patient's coming in, let's get all the doctors together at once,

  • do one test instead of having the patient run around with 10 tests. Let's make sure

  • that we're providing preventive care so we're catching the onset of something like diabetes.

  • Let's -- let's pay providers on the basis of performance as opposed to on the basis

  • of how many procedures they've -- they've engaged in.

  • Now, so what this board does is basically identifies best practices and says, let's

  • use the purchasing power of Medicare and Medicaid to help to institutionalize all these good

  • things that we do.

  • And the fact of the matter is that, when Obamacare is fully implemented, we're going to be in

  • a position to show that costs are going down. And over the last two years, health care premiums

  • have gone up -- it's true -- but they've gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.

  • So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance,

  • you're already getting a rebate.

  • Let me make one last point. Governor Romney says, we should replace it, I'm just going

  • to repeal it, but -- but we can replace it with something. But the problem is, he hasn't

  • described what exactly we'd replace it with, other than saying we're going to leave it

  • to the states.

  • OBAMA: But the fact of the matter is that some of the prescriptions that he's offered,

  • like letting you buy insurance across state lines, there's no indication that that somehow

  • is going to help somebody who's got a pre-existing condition be able to finally buy insurance.

  • In fact, it's estimated that by repealing Obamacare, you're looking at 50 million people

  • losing health insurance...

  • LEHRER: Let's...

  • OBAMA: ... at a time when it's vitally important.

  • LEHRER: Let's let the governor explain what you would do...

  • ROMNEY: Well...

  • LEHRER: ... if Obamacare is repealed. How would you replace it?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: Well, actually it's -- it's -- it's a lengthy description. But, number one, preexisting

  • conditions are covered under my plan. Number two, young people are able to stay on their

  • family plan. That's already offered in the private marketplace. You don't have to have

  • the government mandate that for that to occur.

  • But let's come back to something the president and I agree on, which is the key task we have

  • in health care is to get the cost down so it's more affordable for families. And then

  • he has as a model for doing that a board of people at the government, an unelected board,

  • appointed board, who are going to decide what kind of treatment you ought to have.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • ROMNEY: In my opinion, the government is not effective in -- in bringing down the cost

  • of almost anything. As a matter of fact, free people and free enterprises trying to find

  • ways to do things better are able to be more effective in bringing down the cost than the

  • government will ever be.

  • Your example of the Cleveland Clinic is my case in point, along with several others I

  • could describe.

  • This is the private market. These are small -- these are enterprises competing with each

  • other, learning how to do better and better jobs. I used to consult to businesses -- excuse

  • me, to hospitals and to health care providers. I was astonished at the creativity and innovation

  • that exists in the American people.

  • In order to bring the cost of health care down, we don't need to have a board of 15

  • people telling us what kinds of treatments we should have. We instead need to put insurance

  • plans, providers, hospitals, doctors on target such that they have an incentive, as you say,

  • performance pay, for doing an excellent job, for keeping costs down, and that's happening.

  • Innermountain Healthcare does it superbly well, Mayo Clinic is doing it superbly well,

  • Cleveland Clinic, others.

  • ROMNEY: But the right answer is not to have the federal government take over health care

  • and start mandating to the providers across America, telling a patient and a doctor what

  • kind of treatment they can have.

  • That's the wrong way to go. The private market and individual responsibility always work

  • best.

  • OBAMA: Let me just point out first of all this board that we're talking about can't

  • make decisions about what treatments are given. That's explicitly prohibited in the law. But

  • let's go back to what Governor Romney indicated, that under his plan, he would be able to cover

  • people with preexisting conditions.

  • Well, actually Governor, that isn't what your plan does. What your plan does is to duplicate

  • what's already the law, which says if you are out of health insurance for three months,

  • then you can end up getting continuous coverage and an insurance company can't deny you if

  • you've -- if it's been under 90 days.

  • But that's already the law and that doesn't help the millions of people out there with

  • preexisting conditions. There's a reason why Governor Romney set up the plan that he did

  • in Massachusetts. It wasn't a government takeover of health care. It was the largest expansion

  • of private insurance. But what it does say is that "insurers, you've got to take everybody."

  • Now, that also means that you've got more customers. But when -- when Governor Romney

  • says that he'll replace it with something, but can't detail how it will be in fact replaced

  • and the reason he set up the system he did in Massachusetts was because there isn't a

  • better way of dealing with the preexisting conditions problem.

  • OBAMA: It just reminds me of, you know, he says that he's going to close deductions and

  • loopholes for his tax plan. That's how it's going to be paid for, but we don't know the

  • details. He says that he's going to replace Dodd-Frank, Wall Street reform, but we don't

  • know exactly which ones. He won't tell us. He now says he's going to replace Obamacare

  • and ensure that all the good things that are in it are going to be in there and you don't

  • have to worry.

  • And at some point, I think the American people have to ask themselves, is the reason that

  • Governor Romney is keeping all these plans to replace secret because they're too good?

  • Is it -- is it because that somehow middle-class families are going to benefit too much from

  • them?

  • No. The reason is, is because, when we reform Wall Street, when we tackle the problem of

  • pre-existing conditions, then, you know, these are tough problems and we've got to make choices.

  • And the choices we've made have been ones that ultimately are benefiting middle-class

  • families all across the country.

  • LEHRER: We're going to move to...

  • ROMNEY: No. I -- I have to respond to that.

  • LEHRER: No, but...

  • ROMNEY: Which is -- which is my experience as a governor is if I come in and -- and lay

  • down a piece of legislation and say, "It's my way or the highway," I don't get a lot

  • done. What I do is the same way that Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan worked together some years

  • ago. When Ronald Reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going

  • to foster. He said he was going to lower tax rates. He said he was going to broaden the

  • base. You've said the same thing, you're going to simplify the tax code, broaden the base.

  • Those are my principles. I want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families.

  • And I'm going to work together with Congress to say, OK, what -- what are the various ways

  • we could bring down deductions, for instance? One way, for instance, would be to have a

  • single number. Make up a number, $25,000, $50,000. Anybody can have deductions up to

  • that amount. And then that number disappears for high-income people. That's one way one

  • could do it. One could follow Bowles-Simpson as a model and take deduction by deduction

  • and make differences that way. There are alternatives to accomplish the objective I have, which

  • is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code, and create incentives for

  • growth. And with regards to health care, you had remarkable details with regards to my

  • pre-existing condition plan. You obviously studied up on -- on my plan. In fact, I do

  • have a plan that deals with people with pre-existing conditions. That's part of my health care

  • plan. And what we did in Massachusetts is a model for the nation state by state. And

  • I said that at that time.

  • The federal government taking over health care for the entire nation and whisking aside

  • the 10th Amendment, which gives states the rights for these kinds of things, is not the

  • course for America to have a stronger, more vibrant economy.

  • LEHRER: That is a terrific segue to our next segment, and is the role of government. And

  • -- and let's see. Role of government. And it is -- you are first on this, Mr. President.

  • And the question is this. Do you believe, both of you -- but you had the first two minutes

  • on this, Mr. President -- do you believe there's a fundamental difference between the two of

  • you as to how you view the mission of the federal government?

  • OBAMA: Well, I definitely think there are differences.

  • LEHRER: And do you -- yeah.

  • OBAMA: The first role of the federal government is to keep the American people safe. That's

  • its most basic function. And as commander-in-chief, that is something that I've worked on and

  • thought about every single day that I've been in the Oval Office.

  • But I also believe that government has the capacity, the federal government has the capacity

  • to help open up opportunity and create ladders of opportunity and to create frameworks where

  • the American people can succeed.

  • Look, the genius of America is the free enterprise system and freedom and the fact that people

  • can go out there and start a business, work on an idea, make their own decisions.

  • OBAMA: But as Abraham Lincoln understood, there are also some things we do better together.

  • So, in the middle of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln said, let's help to finance the Transcontinental

  • Railroad, let's start the National Academy of Sciences, let's start land grant colleges,

  • because we want to give these gateways of opportunity for all Americans, because if

  • all Americans are getting opportunity, we're all going to be better off. That doesn't restrict

  • people's freedom. That enhances it.

  • And so what I've tried to do as president is to apply those same principles.

  • And when it comes to education what I've said is we've got to reform schools that are not

  • working. We use something called Race to the Top. Wasn't a top-down approach, Governor.

  • What we've said is to states, we'll give you more money if you initiate reforms. And as

  • a consequence, you had 46 states around the country who have made a real difference.

  • But what I've also said is let's hire another 100,000 math and science teachers to make

  • sure we maintain our technological lead and our people are skilled and able to succeed.

  • And hard-pressed states right now can't all do that. In fact we've seen layoffs of hundreds

  • of thousands of teachers over the last several years, and Governor Romney doesn't think we

  • need more teachers. I do, because I think that that is the kind of investment where

  • the federal government can help.

  • It can't do it all, but it can make a difference. And as a consequence we'll have a better trained

  • workforce and that will create jobs because companies want to locate in places where we've

  • got a skilled workforce.

  • LEHRER: Two minutes, Governor, on the role of government. Your view?

  • ROMNEY: Well, first, I love great schools. Massachusetts, our schools are ranked number

  • one of all 50 states. And the key to great schools, great teachers.

  • So I reject the idea that I don't believe in great teachers or more teachers. Every

  • school district, every state should make that decision on their own.

  • The role of government: Look behind us. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

  • The role of government is to promote and protect the principles of those documents.

  • ROMNEY: First, life and liberty. We have a responsibility to protect the lives and liberties

  • of our people, and that means a military second to none. I do not believe in cutting our military.

  • I believe in maintaining the strength of America's military.

  • Second, in that line that says we are endowed by our creator with our rights, I believe

  • we must maintain our commitment to religious tolerance and freedom in this country. That

  • statement also says that we are endowed by our creator with the right to pursue happiness

  • as we choose. I interpret that as, one, making sure that those people who are less fortunate

  • and can't care for themselves are cared by -- by one another.

  • We're a nation that believes that we're all children of the same god and we care for those

  • that have difficulties, those that are elderly and have problems and challenges, those that

  • are disabled. We care for them. And we -- we look for discovery and innovation, all these

  • things desired out of the American heart to provide the pursuit of happiness for our citizens.

  • But we also believe in maintaining for individuals the right to pursue their dreams and not to

  • have the government substitute itself for the rights of free individuals. And what we're

  • seeing right now is, in my view, a -- a trickle-down government approach, which has government

  • thinking it can do a better job than free people pursuing their dreams. And it's not

  • working.

  • And the proof of that is 23 million people out of work. The proof of that is 1 out of

  • 6 people in poverty. The proof of that is we've gone from 32 million on food stamps

  • to 47 million on food stamps. The proof of that is that 50 percent of college graduates

  • this year can't find work.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • ROMNEY: We know that the path we're taking is not working. It's time for a new path.

  • LEHRER: All right. Let's go through some specifics in terms of what -- how each of you views

  • the role of government. How do -- education. Does the federal government have a responsibility

  • to improve the quality of public education in America?

  • ROMNEY: Well, the primary responsibility for education is -- is, of course, at the state

  • and local level. But the federal government also can play a very important role. And I

  • -- and I agree with Secretary Arne Duncan, he's -- some ideas he's put forward on Race

  • to the Top, not all of them, but some of them I agree with and -- and congratulate him for

  • pursuing that. The federal government can get local and -- and state schools to do a

  • better job.

  • My own view, by the way, is I've added to that. I happen to believe, I want the kids

  • that are getting federal dollars from IDEA or Title I -- these are disabled kids or -- or

  • -- or poor kids or -- or lower-income kids, rather, I want them to be able to go to the

  • school of their choice.

  • So all federal funds, instead of going to the -- to the state or to the school district,

  • I'd have go, if you will, follow the child and let the parent and the child decide where

  • to send their -- their -- their student.

  • LEHRER: How do you see the federal government's responsibility to, as I say, to improve the

  • quality of public education in this country?

  • OBAMA: Well, as I've indicated, I think that it has a significant role to play. Through

  • our Race to the Top program, we've worked with Republican and Democratic governors to

  • initiate major reforms, and they're having an impact right now.

  • LEHRER: Do you think you have a difference with your views and -- and those of Governor

  • Romney on -- about education and the federal government?

  • OBAMA: You know, this is where budgets matter, because budgets reflect choices. So when Governor

  • Romney indicates that he wants to cut taxes and potentially benefit folks like me and

  • him, and to pay for it we're having to initiate significant cuts in federal support for education,

  • that makes a difference.

  • You know, his -- his running mate, Congressman Ryan, put forward a budget that reflects many

  • of the principles that Governor Romney's talked about. And it wasn't very detailed. This seems

  • to be a trend. But -- but what it did do is to -- if you extrapolated how much money we're

  • talking about, you'd look at cutting the education budget by up to 20 percent.

  • OBAMA: When it comes to community colleges, we are seeing great work done out there all

  • over the country because we have the opportunity to train people for jobs that exist right

  • now. And one of the things I suspect Governor Romney and I probably agree on is getting

  • businesses to work with community colleges so that they're setting up their training

  • programs...

  • LEHRER: Do you -- do you agree, Governor?

  • OBAMA: Let me just finish the point.

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • OBAMA: The -- where they're partnering so that they're designing training programs.

  • And people who are going through them know that there's a job waiting for them if they

  • complete it. That makes a big difference, but that requires some federal support.

  • Let me just say one final example. When it comes to making college affordable, whether

  • it's two-year or four-year, one of the things that I did as president was we were sending

  • $60 billion to banks and lenders as middlemen for the student loan program, even though

  • the loans were guaranteed. So there was no risk for the banks or the lenders, but they

  • were taking billions out of the system.

  • And we said, "Why not cut out the middleman?" And as a consequence, what we've been able

  • to do is to provide millions more students assistance, lower or keep low interest rates

  • on student loans. And this is an example of where our priorities make a difference.

  • Governor Romney, I genuinely believe cares about education, but when he tells a student

  • that, you know, "you should borrow money from your parents to go to college," you know,

  • that indicates the degree to which, you know, there may not be as much of a focus on the

  • fact that folks like myself, folks like Michelle, kids probably who attend University of Denver,

  • just don't have that option.

  • And for us to be able to make sure that they've got that opportunity and they can walk through

  • that door, that is vitally important not just to those kids. It's how we're going to grow

  • this economy over the long term.

  • LEHRER: We're running out of time, gentlemen.

  • (CROSSTALK) LEHRER: Governor?

  • ROMNEY: Mr. President, Mr. President, you're entitled as the president to your own airplane

  • and to your own house, but not to your own facts. All right, I'm not going to cut education

  • funding. I don't have any plan to cut education funding and -- and grants that go to people

  • going to college. I'm planning on (inaudible) to grow. So I'm not planning on making changes

  • there.

  • But you make a very good point, which is that the place you put your money just makes a

  • pretty clear indication of where your heart is. You put $90 billion into -- into green

  • jobs. And I -- look, I'm all in favor of green energy. $90 billion, that would have -- that

  • would have hired 2 million teachers. $90 billion.

  • And these businesses, many of them have gone out of business, I think about half of them,

  • of the ones have been invested in have gone out of business. A number of them happened

  • to be owned by people who were contributors to your campaigns.

  • Look, the right course for America's government, we were talking about the role of government,

  • is not to become the economic player, picking winners and losers, telling people what kind

  • of health treatment they can receive, taking over the health care system that has existed

  • in this country for a long, long time and has produced the best health records in the

  • world.

  • The right answer for government is say, How do we make the private sector become more

  • efficient and more effective? How do we get schools to be more competitive? Let's grade

  • them. I propose we grade our schools so parents know which schools are succeeding and failing,

  • so they can take their child to a -- to a school that he's being more successful.

  • I don't want to cut our commitment to education. I wanted to make it more effective and efficient.

  • And by the way, I've had that experience. I don't just talk about it. I've been there.

  • Massachusetts schools are ranked number one in the nation. This is not because I didn't

  • have commitment to education. It's because I care about education for all of our kids.

  • LEHRER: All right, gentlemen...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • LEHRER: Excuse me (inaudible). Excuse me, sir. We've got -- we've got -- barely have

  • three minutes left. I'm not going to grade the two of you and say your answers have been

  • too long or I've done a poor job.

  • OBAMA: You've done a great job.

  • LEHRER: Oh, well, no. But the fact is government -- the role of government and governing, we've

  • lost a pod in other words. So we only have three -- three minutes left in the -- in the

  • debate before we go to your closing statements. And so I want to ask finally here, and remember,

  • we've got three minutes total time here -- and the question is this. Many of the legislative

  • functions of the federal government right now are in a state of paralysis as a result

  • of partisan gridlock. If elected, in your case, if re-elected, in your case, what would

  • you do about that?

  • Governor?

  • ROMNEY: Jim, I had the great experience -- it didn't seem like it at the time -- of being

  • elected in a state where my legislature was 87 percent Democrat. And that meant I figured

  • out from day one I had to get along and I had to work across the aisle to get anything

  • done. We drove our schools to be number one in the nation. We cut taxes 19 times.

  • LEHRER: But what would you do as president?

  • ROMNEY: We -- as president, I will sit on day one -- actually, the day after I get elected

  • -- I'll sit down with leaders -- the Democratic leaders, as well as Republican leaders, and

  • continue -- as we did in my state -- we met every Monday for a couple hours, talked about

  • the issues and the challenges in the -- in the -- in our state in that case. We have

  • to work on a collaborative basis, not because we're going to compromise our principle, but

  • because there's common ground.

  • And the challenges America faces right now -- look, the reason I'm in this race is there

  • are people that are really hurting today in this country. And we face -- this deficit

  • could crush the future generations. What's happening in the Middle East, there are developments

  • around the world that are of real concern.

  • LEHRER: All right.

  • ROMNEY: And Republicans and Democrats both love America. But we need to have leadership

  • -- leadership in Washington that will actually bring people together and get the job done

  • and could not care less if -- if it's a Republican or a Democrat. I've done it before. I'll do

  • it again.

  • LEHRER: Mr. President?

  • OBAMA: Well, first of all, I think Governor Romney's going to have a busy first day, because

  • he's also going to repeal Obamacare, which will not be very popular among Democrats as

  • you're sitting down with them.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • But, look, my philosophy has been, I will take ideas from anybody, Democrat or Republican,

  • as long as they're advancing the cause of making middle-class families stronger and

  • giving ladders of opportunity to the middle class. That's how we cut taxes for middle-

  • class families and small businesses. That's how we cut a trillion dollars of spending

  • that wasn't advancing that cause. That's how we signed three trade deals into law that

  • are helping us to double our exports and sell more American products around the world. That's

  • how we repealed "don't ask/don't tell." That's how we ended the war in Iraq, as I promised,

  • and that's how we're going to wind down the war in Afghanistan. That's how we went after

  • Al Qaida and bin Laden.

  • So we've -- we've seen progress even under Republican control of the House of Representatives.

  • But, ultimately, part of being principled, part of being a leader is, A, being able to

  • describe exactly what it is that you intend to do, not just saying, "I'll sit down," but

  • you have to have a plan.

  • Number two, what's important is occasionally you've got to say no, to -- to -- to folks

  • both in your own party and in the other party. And, you know, yes, have we had some fights

  • between me and the Republicans when -- when they fought back against us reining in the

  • excesses of Wall Street? Absolutely, because that was a fight that needed to be had.

  • When -- when we were fighting about whether or not we were going to make sure that Americans

  • had more security with their health insurance and they said no, yes, that was a fight that

  • we needed to have.

  • LEHRER: All right

  • OBAMA: And so part of leadership and governing is both saying what it is that you are for,

  • but also being willing to say no to some things. And I've got to tell you, Governor Romney,

  • when it comes to his own party during the course of this campaign, has not displayed

  • that willingness to say no to some of the more extreme parts of his party.

  • LEHRER: That brings us to closing statements. It was a coin toss. Governor Romney, you won

  • the toss and you elected to go last, so you have a closing two minutes, Mr. President.

  • OBAMA: Well, Jim, I want to thank you, and I want to thank Governor Romney, because I

  • think was a terrific debate, and I very much appreciate it. And I want to thank the University

  • of Denver.

  • You know, four years ago, we were going through a major crisis. And yet my faith and confidence

  • in the American future is undiminished. And the reason is because of its people, because

  • of the woman I met in North Carolina who decided at 55 to go back to school because she wanted

  • to inspire her daughter and now has a job from that new training that she's gotten;

  • because a company in Minnesota who was willing to give up salaries and perks for their executives

  • to make sure that they didn't lay off workers during a recession.

  • The auto workers that you meet in Toledo or Detroit take such pride in building the best

  • cars in the world, not just because of a paycheck, but because it gives them that sense of pride,

  • that they're helping to build America. And so the question now is how do we build on

  • those strengths. And everything that I've tried to do, and everything that I'm now proposing

  • for the next four years in terms of improving our education system or developing American

  • energy or making sure that we're closing loopholes for companies that are shipping jobs overseas

  • and focusing on small businesses and companies that are creating jobs here in the United

  • States, or closing our deficit in a responsible, balanced way that allows us to invest in our

  • future.

  • All those things are designed to make sure that the American people, their genius, their

  • grit, their determination, is -- is channeled and -- and they have an opportunity to succeed.

  • And everybody's getting a fair shot. And everybody's getting a fair share -- everybody's doing

  • a fair share, and everybody's playing by the same rules.

  • You know, four years ago, I said that I'm not a perfect man and I wouldn't be a perfect

  • president. And that's probably a promise that Governor Romney thinks I've kept. But I also

  • promised that I'd fight every single day on behalf of the American people, the middle

  • class, and all those who were striving to get into the middle class. I've kept that

  • promise and if you'll vote for me, then I promise I'll fight just as hard in a second

  • term.

  • LEHRER: Governor Romney, your two-minute closing.

  • ROMNEY: Thank you, Jim, and Mr. President. And thank you for tuning in this evening.

  • This is a -- this is an important election and I'm concerned about America. I'm concerned

  • about the direction America has been taking over the last four years.

  • I -- I know this is bigger than an election about the two of us as individuals. It's bigger

  • than our respective parties. It's an election about the course of America. What kind of

  • America do you want to have for yourself and for your children.

  • And there really are two very different paths that we began speaking about this evening,

  • and over the course of this month we're going to have two more presidential debates and

  • a vice presidential debate. We're talk about those two paths.

  • But they lead in very different directions. And it's not just looking to our words that

  • you have to take in evidence of where they go. You can look at the record.

  • There's no question in my mind that if the president were to be reelected you'll continue

  • to see a middle-class squeeze with incomes going down and prices going up.

  • I'll get incomes up again.

  • You'll see chronic unemployment. We've had 43 straight months with unemployment above

  • 8 percent.

  • If I'm president I will create -- help create 12 million new jobs in this country with rising

  • incomes.

  • If the president's reelected, Obamacare will be fully installed. In my view that's going

  • to mean a whole different way of life for people who counted on the insurance plan they

  • had in the past. Many will lose it. You're going to see health premiums go up by some

  • $2,500 per family.

  • If I'm elected we won't have Obama. We'll put in place the kind of principles that I

  • put in place in my own state and allow each state to craft their own programs to get people

  • insured and we'll focus on getting the cost of health care down.

  • If the president were to be reelected you're going to see a $716 billion cut to Medicare.

  • You'll have 4 million people who will lose Medicare Advantage. You'll have hospital and

  • providers that'll no longer accept Medicare patients.

  • I'll restore that $716 billion to Medicare.

  • And finally, military. The president's reelected you'll see dramatic cuts to our military.

  • The secretary of defense has said these would be even devastating.

  • I will not cut our commitment to our military. I will keep America strong and get America's

  • middle class working again.

  • Thank you, Jim.

  • LEHRER: Thank you, Governor.

  • Thank you, Mr. President.

  • The next debate will be the vice presidential event on Thursday, October 11th at Centre

  • College in Danville, Kentucky. For now, from the University of Denver, I'm Jim Lehrer.

  • Thank you, and good night.

LEHRER: Good evening from the Magness Arena at the University of Denver in Denver, Colorado.

字幕與單字

單字即點即查 點擊單字可以查詢單字解釋

B1 中級

觀看Jim Lehrer主持的第一次完整的總統辯論。 (Watch Jim Lehrer Moderate First Full Presidential Debate)

  • 333 9
    marmot 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
影片單字