Name: 科技界神祕大亨彼得·提爾將「反基督者」講座帶到梵蒂岡門口！| DW 新聞 (Secretive tech mogul Peter Thiel brings his Antichrist lectures to the Vatican's doorstep | DW News)
Uploaded: 2026-03-22T17:17:28.000Z
Duration: 21 min 13 s

Now, geopolitical conflicts around the world are not the only challenge for Pope Leo.

現在，全球地緣政治衝突並非教宗 Leo 面臨的唯一挑戰。

He also faces global challenges from big tech.

他也面臨來自大型科技業的全球性挑戰。

The Vatican has been working on a set of moral principles to guide the development of artificial intelligence and other emerging technology.

梵蒂岡一直在制定一套道德原則，以指導人工智慧和其他新興科技的發展。

And that has received pushback from some major players, including Peter Thiel.

而這也引發了一些主要人物的反彈，包括 Peter Thiel。

The Silicon Valley billionaire is not a Catholic, but

這位矽谷億萬富翁並非天主教徒，

grew up in an evangelical Christian household and has served strong views about the intersection of technology and religion.

但他在福音派基督教家庭中長大，對於科技與宗教的交集抱持強烈的看法。

As a reminder, if you don't know, Thiel founded the payments app PayPal, helped launch a company called Palantir, a tech company that has contracts with the U.S.

提醒一下，如果你不知道的話，Thiel 創辦了支付應用程式 PayPal，並協助創立了一家名為 Palantir 的公司，這是一家與美國軍方

immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency at the center of America's currently unpopular immigration enforcement.

移民及海關執法局）簽有合約的科技公司，而 ICE 正是目前美國不受歡迎的移民執法部門的核心。

And Thiel has been a key adviser and donor to President Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. vance.

Thiel 一直是美國總統川普和美國副總統 J.D. Vance 的重要顧問和捐助者。

So you can imagine the attention and concern when Thiel decided to hold a series of lectures on the Antichrist in Rome on the Vatican's doorstep.

所以你可以想像，當 Thiel 決定在羅馬，就在梵蒂岡旁邊舉辦一系列關於敵基督的講座時，引起了多大的關注和擔憂。

I also want to bring in Fritz Espenlaub, who is a journalist and co author of Deutschland Funk's podcast series here in Germany.

我也想請 Fritz Espenlaub 加入，他是一位記者，也是德國 Deutschland Funk 播客系列節目的合著者。

It's a multi part series on Peter Thiel, including one episode examining Thiel's theory of the Antichrist.

這是一個關於 Peter Thiel 的多集系列，其中一集探討了 Thiel 的敵基督理論。

I'm going to start by like Peter Thiel, holding these Antichrist lectures in Rome was definitely, surely a choice of two questions.

我會從像 Peter Thiel 這樣，在羅馬舉辦這些敵基督講座開始，這絕對、肯定是一個有兩個問題的選擇。

Why did he do this in Rome and what are his views of the Antichrist?

他為什麼要在羅馬做這件事，以及他對敵基督的看法是什麼？

I'm going to go to Fritz first and Massimo, I might ask you a question and a follow up.

我先問 Fritz 和 Massimo，我可能會問你們一個問題，然後再追問。

So Peter Thiel's fascination with the Antichrist has to be seen in the context of sort of his whole intellectual Persona or his whole intellectual journey.

所以 Peter Thiel 對敵基督的著迷，必須放在他整個知識分子的形象或他整個知識旅程的脈絡來看。

He has always painted himself as a contrarian.

他一直以來都將自己塑造成一個反傳統者。

He likes to provoke, he likes to raise eyebrows.

他喜歡挑釁，他喜歡讓人們跌破眼鏡。

So that I think is at least a part of the explanation why he did it, particularly in Rome.

所以我認為這至少是解釋他為何這麼做的一部分原因，尤其是在羅馬。

He has helped Antichrist lectures before in the Bay Area, I think also in Paris, if I remember correctly.

我記得他以前在灣區，甚至在巴黎，也舉辦過敵基督講座。

And if you look at what exactly he says, like, these are private lectures, these are not open to the public.

如果你看看他具體說了什麼，這些是私人講座，不對外公開。

But he's been on the record what he means by the Antichrist and there have been reports of people participating in these lectures.

但他曾公開表示過他對敵基督的理解，也有人參與這些講座的報導。

So if you look under the hood, it's not, I think, that special.

所以如果你仔細看看，我認為並沒有那麼特別。

So it's not that he really wants to kind of like establish some sort of serious theology there in the end, it's him kind of like ranting against Regulation a little bit, because at the end of the day, he's a venture capitalist, he's a tech person.

所以，他並不是真的想在那裡建立什麼嚴肅的神學，而是他有點在抨擊規範，因為說到底，他是一個創投家，一個科技人。

Regulation is something that always is in conflict with technological revolutions like right now, AI There's a big discourse on AI regulation.

規範的東西總是和科技革命衝突，就像現在的AI，關於AI規範有很多討論。

And for Thiel, what he means by Antichrist is basically he refers to some part of the Bible where I think the terms are the peace and safety of the Antichrist or something like that.

而Thiel所謂的敵基督，基本上是指聖經裡某段，我記得 terms 是敵基督的和平與安全，還是類似的說法。

So for him, the Antichrist is sort of a stand in for a desire of state institutions, mostly international institutions, to regulate technological innovation, which he's against.

所以對他來說，敵基督就像是國家機構，尤其是國際機構，想要規範科技創新的一種代表，而他對此是反對的。

Massimo, I've been seeing your facial expression during this explanation.

Massimo，我看到你解釋時的表情了。

And what are the Church's views in terms of the Antichrist that differ from Peter Thiel's?

那麼，教會對於敵基督的看法，跟Peter Thiel有什麼不同之處呢？

You know, he came tothese conferences were held in Rome and a number of institutions that had previously believed to have been connected to these talks came out in Italy to deny any connections to these talks.

你知道，他來到這些會議，這些會議在羅馬舉行，而一些先前被認為與這些講座有關的機構，在義大利出來否認與這些講座有任何關聯。

What does the Vatican make of all of this, Massimo?

Massimo，梵蒂岡對這一切有什麼看法？

So, yes, the choice of holding that lectures in the Vatican has a particular timing because there's an American Pope who's writing on AI and was said a number of things already on the risk to create a post human anti human world.

所以，是的，選擇在梵蒂岡舉辦這些講座，時機點很特別，因為有一位美國教宗正在撰寫關於AI的著作，並且已經說了一些關於創造一個後人類、反人類世界的風險。

And second, because this war in the Middle east that will, we're seeing as being called by many the first AI War.

而且第二點，這場中東戰爭，許多人稱之為第一場AI戰爭。

Catholic institutions were the ones who invited him.

And so one in Italy and one which is located in the Catholic University of America in Washington D.C.

一個在義大利，另一個則位於華盛頓特區的美國天主教大學。

which is the University of the U.S. catholic Bishops.

也就是美國天主教主教們的學校。

But you're right, many other institutions in the Vatican and in Rome that are connected to the Catholic Church, anyone who could take distance from Teal, they did take distance from Teal.

但你說的沒錯，梵蒂岡和羅馬許多其他與天主教會相關的機構，任何能與Teal劃清界線的，都這麼做了。

And so there's been a visible effort not to be involved in this.

所以，他們確實有明顯的努力，不想牽扯進來。

But at the same time a certain number of American Catholic clerics or students or institutions that are connected with U.S.

但同時，一些與美國天主教在羅馬有聯繫的美國天主教神職人員、學生或機構。

So they have been invited, so they received personal invitations to go.

所以他們被邀請了，收到了個人邀請函。

And so there's been a gray area, let's say, between what the Vatican officially says and the reluctant skepticism or wars, and

所以，我們可以說，梵蒂岡的官方說法和那些猶豫不決的懷疑論或戰爭之間，存在著一個灰色地帶，

some circles of Catholicism that are more convincible, that are less skeptical.

還有一些比較容易說服、比較不懷疑的天主教圈子。

And I just want to clarify, I believe I misspoke.

我想澄清一下，我剛剛說錯了。

A little earlier, Thiel was in Rome, only he didn't wander into the Vatican.

剛才，Peter Thiel 在羅馬，只是他沒有走進梵蒂岡。

Now, Massimo, I want to ask if you can expound a little bit more about the Vatican's artificial Intelligence policy, because that seems to be touching on Peter Thiel's world and where he takes issue.

Massimo，我想問你能不能多談談梵蒂岡在人工智慧方面的政策，因為這似乎觸及了 Peter Thiel 的世界和他有意見的地方。

Does the Vatican have an official policy on artificial intelligence?

梵蒂岡在人工智慧方面有官方政策嗎？

Striking to me because AI is moving at such a rapid pace in terms of its development and changes.

這點讓我很驚訝，因為 AI 的發展和變化速度非常快。

And the Vatican is not necessarily an institution one thinks of for its nimbleness.

而梵蒂岡不一定是一個讓人聯想到靈活性的機構。

But I believe that the Vatican has been studying artificial intelligence development for the last few years.

但我相信梵蒂岡這幾年一直在研究人工智慧的發展。

They are studying this also because they were contacted by Silicon Valley in 2015.

他們也在研究這件事，因為在 2015 年時，矽谷聯繫了他們。

Silicon Valley told the Vatican, we're not going necessarily to follow your advice, but

矽谷告訴梵蒂岡，我們不一定會照你們的建議走，但是

we want to know what you in the Vatican think about this.

我們想知道你們梵蒂岡對這件事的想法。

And so there is a reflection going on there.

The Vatican is skeptical about this, essentially because.

梵蒂岡對此持懷疑態度，主要是因為。

So there's a view of technology that can be destructive of the personal dimension of the human life and of the interpersonal.

有一種觀點認為科技會破壞人類生命的個人面向和人際關係。

There's no official policy to speak of, but there are already some documents.

雖然沒有什麼官方政策可以說，但已經有一些文件了。

And I think that the next encyclical, the first one of Poplio, which will be published, it seems shortly after Easter in April, will have a section on AI.

我認為下一封教宗通諭，也就是教宗方濟各的第一封，似乎會在四月復活節後不久公佈，其中會有一部分是關於 AI 的。

And so there is a great distance between what Peter Thiel thinks that technology and is the salvific source for our world, so that salvation will come from technology to solve everything, wars, environment, medicine.

And the Vatican that has a deeply skeptical view about this godlike view of technology.

So there is a real clash of visions about what is the role of technology in our world, in our humanity.

And these are impossible to reconcile, I think.

And speaking of Thiel in Rome, do we know where he ended up speaking, whether which venue was willing to actually host them?

所以 Peter Thiel 對科技的看法，認為科技是我們世界的救贖來源，科技將拯救一切，包括戰爭、環境、醫藥，這之間有很大的差距。

I don't know if either of you guys know and want to say something about it.

而梵蒂岡對這種將科技神化的觀點，抱持著非常懷疑的態度。

Okay, shake from the head from Fritz and Massimo, do you?

所以，關於科技在我們世界、在我們人性中扮演的角色，存在著兩種截然不同的願景。

Yes, he spoke in a baroque palace in the city center, but

Rome is very small, so you can see the Vatican from every window of an important Roman palace, if you want to.

a number of American Catholic priests and seminarians showed up at that conference.

有一些美國的天主教神父和修道生出現在那個會議上。

So there was a distance, but not in a separate city.

所以是有距離的，但不是在一個不同的城市。

That could have been like Milan is the city of technology in Italy.

那可能就像米蘭是義大利的科技之城一樣。

Now, Fritz Thiel's views seem to be pretty apocalyptic, and he uses strong Christian imagery in his language.

現在，Fritz Thiel 的觀點似乎相當末世論，他在用詞上使用了強烈的基督教意象。

I want to see if you can talk a little bit more about that.

I know you touched on that a little earlier, but how extreme are his views?

我知道你剛才稍微提到了，但他的觀點有多極端？

So you have to again, look at the context of the AI industry, of the tech industry.

所以你必須再次看看 AI 產業、科技產業的背景。

And the same schism that Massimo was talking about also exists there.

而 Massimo 剛才提到的那種分裂，在那裡也存在。

There's broadly two camps, or have been two camps since the very beginning of the AI revolution.

大致上有兩個陣營，或者說自 AI 革命開始以來就一直存在兩個陣營。

On the one side are those that really want to regulate it, that are very worried about, to the regular person, very sci fi sounding existential risks of like a rogue super artificial intelligence that's super powerful and threatens humanity.

一邊是那些真正想監管它的人，他們非常擔心，對一般人來說，聽起來很科幻，像是失控的超級人工智慧威脅人類生存的末日風險。

And on the other side are those like Peter Thiel, that more emphasize the promises of the technology.

而另一邊則是像 Peter Thiel 這樣的人，他們更強調這項技術的潛力。

And in this context, Thiel sort of like positions himself as a contrarian in contrast to the safety minded people, to the ones that want to regulate AI and, and

在這個脈絡下，Thiel 似乎將自己定位為一個與那些注重安全、想監管 AI 的人截然不同的反對者，

says no, well you are talking about the AI apocalypse, but

他說，你們在談論 AI 的末日，但

the real apocalypse would be if humanity stopped technological progress.

真正的末日將是人類停止技術進步。

Because like there's a second scenario where he says sometimes he talks about the apocalypse as this sort of like idea of a one world superstate, like a super powerful European Union and mix of like European Union and the Chinese government that uses AI technology to kind of like remove individual freedoms.

因為有第二種情況，他說有時候他會把末日描述成一種超級強大的歐盟和中國政府結合而成的「世界超級國家」的概念，利用 AI 技術來剝奪個人自由。

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科技界神祕大亨彼得·提爾將「反基督者」講座帶到梵蒂岡門口！| DW 新聞 (Secretive tech mogul Peter Thiel brings his Antichrist lectures to the Vatican's doorstep | DW News)

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