Name: 川普政府在伊朗戰爭問題上有多分裂？| DW新聞 (How divided is the Trump administration over the Iran war? | DW News)
Uploaded: 2026-03-18T17:02:05.000Z
Duration: 21 min 28 s

One of Donald Trump's top counterterrorism officials resigns in protest over the war in Iran.

唐納·川普的一位頂級反恐官員為了抗議伊朗戰爭而辭職。

What does his departure tell us about divisions within the administration over the war, conservatives relationship with Israel, and

他的離職告訴我們關於政府在戰爭問題上的內閣分歧、保守派與以色列的關係，以及

Well, Kerry, Dan is managing editor of the Cook Political Report.

好的，Kerry，Dan 是 Cook Political Report 的執行編輯。

That's an independent, nonpartisan newsletter that analyzes American politics.

這是一份獨立、無黨派的時事通訊，專門分析美國政治。

Kerry, welcome and thanks for joining us.

Kerry，歡迎你，謝謝你來參加我們的節目。

But if you had to sum it up, what, if anything, does this episode surrounding this official, Joe Kent, really tell us about Trump and his supporters as briefly as you can.

但如果你必須總結一下，這個圍繞著這位政府官員喬·肯特的事件，究竟告訴了我們關於川普和他的支持者什麼，盡可能簡短地說。

To begin with, I think that Joe Kent's departure is maybe a symptom rather than a catalyst for action here.

首先，我認為喬·肯特的離職或許是個徵兆，而不是採取行動的催化劑。

But what we are seeing is he's the first high profile administration official to publicly break with the president's policy on Iran.

但我們看到的是，他是第一位公開與總統的伊朗政策決裂的高階政府官員。

There was not an imminent threat from, from Iran.

It was very interesting to see how he worded his letter to Trump.

看到他寫給川普的信時，措辭非常有趣。

He sort of blamed the people around Donald Trump and the state of Israel without blaming the president directly for his decision making here.

他似乎把責任歸咎於唐納·川普身邊的人和以色列政府，但沒有直接指責總統做出的決策。

But it does show that there are starting to be some small cracks in the president's coalition around the way that he has talked in the past about foreign wars.

但這確實顯示出，在總統過去談論外國戰爭的方式上，他的聯盟開始出現一些小裂痕。

He ran on the idea of avoiding foreign interventionism.

他參選的理念就是避免外國幹預。

That's clearly not what's happening here.

And there are starting to be some conservative voices, Joe Kent among them, that are starting to voice their displeasure there.

而且開始有一些保守派的聲音，包括喬·肯特，開始表達他們的不滿。

All right, let's get into it further first by looking at a quote from the resignation letter that Joe Kent, the director of the National Counterterrorism center, handed in today.

好的，我們先來深入探討一下，看看國家反恐中心主任喬·肯特今天提交的辭職信中的一段話。

He wrote, I cannot in good conscience support the ongoing war in Iran.

他寫道，我無法憑良心支持正在進行的伊朗戰爭。

Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation.

伊朗對我們國家沒有迫在眉睫的威脅。

And it is clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel and its powerful American lobby.

顯然，我們是因為以色列及其強大的美國遊說團體的壓力才發動這場戰爭。

And here is how President Trump reacted to the resignation.

而這就是唐納·川普總統對這份辭職的回應。

When I read his statement, I realized that it's a good thing that he's out because he said that Iran was not a threat.

當我讀到他的聲明時，我意識到他離開是好事，因為他說伊朗不是威脅。

Every country realized what a threat Iran was.

每個國家都知道伊朗是個多大的威脅。

The question is whether or not they wanted to do something about it.

問題在於他們是否想要對此採取行動。

All right, Kerry, to begin with, what should we know about Joe Kent himself?

好的，Kerry，首先，我們應該知道喬·肯特這個人什麼？

Well, Joe Kent is a former member of Congress.

He was serving as the head counterterrorism official in this capacity.

He's in an interesting political place right now because Democrats agree with his assessment of this being a war of choice that they don't support.

他現在的政治處境很有趣，因為民主黨人同意他認為這是一場他們不支持的選擇性戰爭。

But Democrats are also very reluctant to claim him as one of their own.

但民主黨人也不太想把他當成自己人。

They don't really want to elevate him that much.

他們其實不太想讓他聲名大噪。

That's because Joe Kent is primarily known for also being somebody who sort of has peddled in conspiracy theories in the past.

這是因為喬·肯特過去也以散播陰謀論聞名。

Yes, about Iraq, Israel, but also about January 6, the 2020 election.

是的，關於伊拉克、以色列，還有關於1月6日、2020年的選舉。

So he is somebody who has sort of espoused some of these very right wing ideals.

所以他算是宣揚了一些非常極右翼的理念。

He had previously been viewed as a very MAGA kind of acolyte.

他之前被視為一位非常MAGA的追隨者。

So Democrats are very quick to say we agree with his assessment just on Iran, but

所以民主黨人很快就說，我們同意他對伊朗的看法，但是

don't take him too seriously, like he's a little bit of a nut.

別太認真看待他，他有點瘋瘋的。

He's very much aligned with Tucker Carlson.

Carlson has come to his defense today and actually, Joe, Ken is going to talk to Carlson tomorrow as to further explain his reasoning here.

卡爾森今天為他辯護，而且，喬，肯特明天會跟卡爾森談，進一步解釋他的理由。

But he's known as sort of a right wing person, which is why him breaking with the president is making some waves here in the States.

但他被視為一個右翼人士，這也是為什麼他跟總統意見不合，在美國引起了一些波瀾。

Let's talk about the first part of Kent's given reasoning in that letter, that Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation.

我們來談談肯特信中給出的第一個理由，伊朗對我國沒有迫在眉睫的威脅。

There's broad agreement within the political spectrum with that assertion.

政治光譜上對這個說法有廣泛的共識。

Is that fair to say or is it still sort of unknown?

這樣說公平嗎，還是說還不太確定？

Well, as of right now, the if there was evidence of an imminent threat, the American people are not particularly convinced of that, nor are many of the members of Congress who've been briefed here.

嗯，就目前來說，如果真的有迫在眉睫的威脅的證據，美國民眾並沒有特別相信，國會裡許多聽過簡報的成員也一樣。

I think that there are lots of foreign policy experts and lawmakers who believe that, yes, Iran overall could be an existential threat to the United States.

我認為有很多外交政策專家和國會議員相信，是的，伊朗整體上可能對美國構成生存威脅。

But the idea that that was imminent, the idea that they are, we're very close to obtaining nuclear weapons and aiming them at the United States, we haven't really seen a justification from the administration from that.

但那種迫在眉睫的說法，那種他們，我們非常接近獲得核武並將其瞄準美國的說法，我們並沒有真正看到政府提出什麼理由。

And that's also showing up in public opinion polling.

About two thirds of Americans, when they were asked first by CBS right after this war started, has the administration made a case for what we're doing here?

大約三分之二的美國人在戰爭剛開始時，CBS 首次詢問他們，政府是否說明瞭我們在這裡做的事情的理由？

We're not quite sure what exactly this is all about.

我們不太確定這到底是怎麼回事。

這是一個迫在眉睫的核威脅嗎？

And the administration made very little effort heading into this conflict to build up support with international allies or to make a public case for why this was necessary.

在這場衝突之前，政府幾乎沒有努力爭取國際盟友的支持，也沒有公開說明為什麼這是必要的。

So if there is evidence that there was an imminent threat, that certainly is not something that has been shared with folks behind closed doors on Capitol Hill or that the president has really tried to make a case publicly.

所以，如果確實有迫在眉睫的威脅的證據，那肯定不是在國會山閉門會議上與人們分享的內容，也不是總統真正公開嘗試提出的理由。

Do you think this puts More pressure on Trump to make that case publicly.

你覺得這會不會讓川普在公開場合提出這個說法的壓力更大？

But what I think is a little bit problematic for the president is that there was so much different kinds of messaging from different parts of the administration early on.

但我覺得對總統來說有點麻煩的是，一開始政府內部不同部門發出的訊息差異很大。

He has also said that he will declare victory, sort of when he feels like it, when he senses that there is, you know, he's achieved his goals, but

他也說過，他覺得時機成熟、達成目標時，就會宣佈勝利，但

so far he's really not stated what those goals are.

到目前為止，他並沒有真正說明那些目標是什麼。

One thing that is particularly problematic is that Donald Trump could declare victory, say, we've done what we wanted to accomplish and we're out of there.

有一件特別讓人頭痛的事是，唐納·川普可能會宣佈勝利，說「我們已經做到了想做的事，我們要撤了」。

But there will be a persistent problem regardless, probably until there is more resolution here when it comes to gas prices, because gas prices are the way that America, the American public is feeling this.

但無論如何，問題都會持續存在，尤其是在油價方面，因為油價是美國民眾感受這一切的方式。

They're not necessarily paying that much attention to what's happening on their TV screens, but

他們不一定會太關注電視上發生的事，但

they are, when they go to fill up at the pump, feeling the results of this.

當他們去加油時，卻能感受到這一切的結果。

Iran has said that they are going to do everything that they can to sort of exacerbate that problem for Donald Trump.

伊朗已經說過，他們會盡一切努力來加劇唐納·川普的難題。

So even if he was to declare a victory without really stating what his objectives are, the American people are probably going to still keep feeling the effects of this for weeks to come.

所以即使他宣佈勝利，卻沒有真正說明他的目標是什麼，美國民眾可能還會感受到這一切的後果好幾週。

Joe Kent's boss, Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, came out today saying that, hey, the president makes the final call supporting Trump in that case.

喬·肯特的上司，國家情報總監 Tulsi Gabbard 今天出來說，嘿，總統才是最終拍板支持川普的那個人。

But it is likely that there are still rifts within the administration, that's fair to say.

但內閣裡很可能還是有分歧，這樣說應該沒錯。

And Gabbard's statement was very, very careful in that she said, President Donald Trump is the person who made, who was empowered to make this decision, and

而 Gabbard 的聲明非常、非常謹慎，她說，總統唐納·川普是那個被授權做這個決定的人，

She's also famously anti interventionist.

她也是出了名的反幹預主義者。

She's famously a member of the administration who in past campaigns has highlighted the fact that Donald Trump did not want to relive the experiences, for example, of Iraq and Afghanistan and these scars with the American public from those two foreign conflicts and how they became these, like, sort of intractable quagmires is something that she talked a lot about and that Donald Trump talked a lot about during his campaign.

她以是政府裡的一員而聞名，在過去的競選活動中，她曾強調唐納·川普不想重蹈伊拉克和阿富汗戰爭的覆轍，以及這些戰爭在美國民眾心中留下的傷痕，以及它們如何演變成難以擺脫的泥沼，這點她談了很多，唐納·川普在競選時也談了很多。

Even in his first campaign, he talked about Iraq and how he would have avoided that conflict and he would have gotten us out of it.

即使在他第一次競選時，他就談到了伊拉克，以及他如何會避免那場衝突，以及他會讓我們脫離那場衝突。

And so that's why it's quite jarring, I think, for some conservative commentators to hear him say, this was a necessary war.

所以，我認為，聽到他說這是一場必要的戰爭，對一些保守派評論員來說，確實令人震驚。

It's going to be over quickly, is the way that he has argued that that's what remains to be seen.

他認為這將很快結束，這還有待觀察。

And I think the long this conflict goes on, the more unpopular you might see it become with the American public and specifically with Trump's coalition.

我認為這場衝突持續的時間越長，它可能會變得越不受美國民眾歡迎，特別是川普的聯盟。

Kerry, let's talk about the second aspect of Kent's statement, and that is Israel.

凱瑞，我們來談談肯特聲明的第二個方面，那就是以色列。

First, I want to play a clip of someone who appears to be an ideological ally of Kent's.

首先，我想播放一段影片，是一位看起來像是肯特的意識形態盟友的人說的話。

We've already talked about him, right wing media personality Tucker Carlson.

我們已經談過他了，右翼媒體名人塔克·卡爾森。

Here's what he recently said about the war.

他最近對這場戰爭說了些什麼。

This happened because Israel wanted it to happen.

這發生是因為以色列希望如此。

This war is not being waged on behalf of national security objectives to make the United States safer or richer.

這場戰爭並不是為了國家安全目標而發動，讓美國更安全或更富裕。

This war is not actually even about weapons, mass destruction, nukes, chembio.

這場戰爭其實甚至不是關於大規模毀滅性武器、核武、化學武器或生物武器。

This war is waged purely because Israel wanted it to be waged.

這場戰爭純粹是因為以色列想要發動才進行的。

That's from a flame throwing right wing personality for those who may not know Carlson.

對於可能不認識卡爾森的人來說，這是一位極右翼的煽動性人物說的。