Name: 意識之謎！ (Consciousness is a mystery)
Uploaded: 2026-03-16T16:56:28.000Z
Duration: 39 min 3 s

So the fact that we have this three pound, spongy thing in our skulls that produces the experience of being a subjective self, is that maybe the greatest remaining mystery in science for you or.

所以，我們腦袋裡有這個三磅重、海綿狀的東西，竟然能產生主觀自我的體驗，這對你來說，或許是科學上最難解的謎團之一了。

I list it as one of three great mysteries.

The other two are how do you get from dead matter to life?

另外兩個是，無機物要如何變成生命？

And then the third is why is there anything and not nothing?

然後第三個是，為什麼存在的是「有」而不是「無」？

Consciousness is probably the second most tractable.

I was thinking about what I loved so much about this book of yours, this new book, and

我在想，你這本書、這本新書，我最喜歡的部分是什麼？

I think it's kind of what I love about all of your work, Michael.

我想這有點像我喜歡你所有作品的原因，Michael。

You know, it really seems to be defined and driven by the questions.

你知道，它似乎真的由問題來定義和驅動。

Not that you're not interested in the answers, but

並不是你對答案不感興趣，而是

it's the curiosity and the openness to the many possible answers that really seems to be the anchor of the thing.

正是這種好奇心和對許多可能答案的開放性，似乎是它的錨點。

And that is what I feel like makes great science writing, which is why you are, if not our best, certainly one of our best science writers.

這也是我覺得偉大的科學寫作的特質，這也是為什麼你絕對是我們最頂尖的科學作家之一，如果不是最頂尖的話。

I am more interested in questions than answers.

They're usually more interesting, and they also can drive a narrative in a way that answers can't.

它們通常更有趣，而且它們也能以答案無法做到的方式來推動敘事。

And so, you know, I teach my students, you know, if you can frame a couple really good questions at the top of a piece, you're in, you're.

所以，你知道，我教我的學生，你知道，如果你能在文章開頭提出幾個很棒的問題，你就成功了，你就。

You're really in good shape because that's what's going to drive people forward.

你真的狀況很好，因為那就是會驅動人們前進的東西。

Well, speaking of questions, I'm not going to ask you to define consciousness.

嗯，說到問題，我不會要求你定義意識。

Well, I think instead I'll just start out by asking you why consciousness has proven so impossibly hard to define.

嗯，我想我會先問你，為什麼意識被證明如此難以定義。

One is we can't get outside it, so we can't attain that kind of view from nowhere perspective that allows us to formulate really tight definitions of things.

一個是因為我們無法跳脫出它，所以無法獲得那種「從無處」的視角，讓我們能為事物做出非常精確的定義。

Every tool we have to understand consciousness and define consciousness is a product of consciousness.

我們用來理解意識、定義意識的每一個工具，都是意識的產物。

So we're sort of lost in this labyrinth that I think makes it makes it difficult.

所以我們有點迷失在這個迷宮裡，我認為這讓它變得困難。

You know, people don't think of it this way, but

你知道，人們不會這樣想，但是

even the scientific enterprise is a product of consciousness.

就連科學事業本身也是意識的產物。

Every choice of problems to solve, every measurement device, every perspective we take, all these are products of consciousness.

每一個要解決的問題的選擇、每一個測量儀器、我們採取的每一個視角，這些都是意識的產物。

And so we are in this loop and it's not easy to get out of.

所以我們處於這個循環中，而且不容易走出來。

Defining consciousness is hard in one way, and then not at all Hard in another.

定義意識一方面很難，另一方面又一點都不難。

I mean, there's nothing we know with more certainty than the fact that we're conscious.

我的意思是，沒有什麼比我們知道自己是有意識這件事更確定的了。

I think subjective experience is a pretty good definition, does a lot of work, and

我認為主觀體驗是一個很好的定義，它做了很多工作，而且

I, I also like Thomas Nagel's, you know, what is it like to be a bat?

我，我也喜歡湯瑪斯·內格爾的，你知道，蝙蝠是什麼感覺？

If it is like something, if it feels like something to be whatever creature you want to think about, then it's conscious.

如果像什麼，如果成為你想到的任何生物都有感覺，那麼它就是有意識的。

And you can't say that about, you know, your home appliances.

而且你不能說，你知道，你的家用電器有這種感覺。

So the fact that we have this three pound spongy thing in our skulls that produces the experience of being a subjective self, is that maybe the greatest remaining mystery in science for you or.

所以，我們腦袋裡這個三磅重的海綿狀物體產生了主觀自我的體驗，這對你來說可能是科學上最大的未解之謎嗎？

I listed as one of three great mysteries.

然後第三個是，為什麼會有存在而不是虛無？

意識大概是第二個比較可處理的。

It is worth saying that there is no reason that it should feel like something to be me.

值得一提的是，並沒有理由說「成為我」應該要有感覺。

I mean, feeling like a self is not a condition of life.

我的意思是，感覺有個自我並不是生命的必要條件。

I mean, don't you think we could just survive perfectly fine as highly sophisticated zombies?

我的意思是，你不覺得我們就這樣當個高度複雜的殭屍，也能活得好好的嗎？

我的意思是，這就是謎團所在。

And it's one way to phrase the hard problem as, you know, so much of what your brain does, it does outside of the space of our awareness, right?

這也是一種闡述「難題」的方式，你知道的，你大腦做的很多事情，其實都在我們意識之外進行，對吧？

It's monitoring your body 24 7, it's adjusting your temperature, your blood glucose.

它全天候監測你的身體，調整你的體溫、血糖。

I mean, it's doing an incredible amount of work to keep you, keep you alive, maintaining homeostasis.

我的意思是，它做了驚人的工作來讓你活下去，維持恆定狀態。

所以為什麼不是全部都自動化？

the best reasons for that I've heard from the scientists I've interviewed, is that you can automate things in a fairly predictable world, but

我從採訪過的科學家那裡聽到的最佳解釋是，在一個相當可預測的世界裡，你可以自動化事物，但是

in realms that are fundamentally unpredictable, like human social life, you can't.

在根本上不可預測的領域，像是人類的社交生活，你就不行。

You need a space in which to imagine counterfactuals.

你需要一個可以想像反事實的空間。

The fact that we live in a very intricate social environment as humans requires consciousness, or put another way, has made people who had consciousness thrive and survive.

身為人類，我們生活在一個非常複雜的社交環境中，這需要意識，或者換個說法，讓擁有意識的人得以茁壯成長並生存下來。

I thought that was a pretty good explanation.

我認為那是一個很不錯的解釋。

this comes from Mark Soames, who's one of the consciousness researchers I interviewed several times.

這來自 Mark Soames，他是我採訪過好幾次的意識研究者之一。

Sometimes we have incommensurate needs and they're maybe in conflict.

有時候我們會有無法比較的需求，而且它們可能產生衝突。

You're hungry and you're tired, which should you privilege.

你肚子餓又累，你應該優先考慮哪個。

But they're more complicated ones where we feel two needs or have two desires that are at odds.

但有些情況更複雜，我們感覺到兩種需求或有兩種願望，但它們卻是矛盾的。

And that is when you need a space of deliberation, a space of creativity where you can navigate it.

這時候你就需要一個思考的空間，一個可以讓你自由穿梭的創意空間。

So that's another, you know, situation that might have turned zombies into conscious human beings.

所以這又是另一種，你知道的，可能會讓無機物變成有意識的人類的情況。

I was going to ask, I mean, is there some obvious evolutionary purpose for consciousness?

我本來想問，我是說，意識有什麼明顯的演化目的嗎？

You know, it's hard to say what came first.

但我們是極度社會化的存在，對吧？

We have this long period of total dependence as.

我們有這麼長一段完全依賴的時期。

As children, much longer than any other animal.

小時候，比任何其他動物都長得多。

And if we don't understand the other people in our world, and

if we don't, if we fail to anticipate what they're likely to do or say, we're not going to do.

如果我們無法預測他們可能會做什麼或說什麼，我們就無法生存。

And the people who have that space of imagination, you know, we call it philosophy of mind, right?

而那些擁有想像空間的人，你知道，我們稱之為心靈哲學，對吧？

The ability to imagine the points of view of other people.

This is fundamental to our success as social beings, our survival as social beings.

這對我們作為社會生物的成功、作為社會生物的生存至關重要。

So, you know, like all evolutionary stories, there's a just so element here.

所以，你知道，就像所有演化故事一樣，這裡有一個「恰好如此」的元素。

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意識之謎！ (Consciousness is a mystery)

perspective

weird

conscious

phenomenon