Name: 「進步派的安德魯·泰特」無法根治男性激進化問題？理查·裡夫斯解析 (A “progressive Andrew Tate” isn’t the antidote to male radicalization | Richard Reeves)
Uploaded: 2026-01-12T18:12:28.000Z
Duration: 25 min 21 s

情態助動詞 A2

I think the idea that you can somehow just invent like a progressive version of Andrew Tate or somebody and just throw them online, add water, and

我認為，你以為可以隨便創造出一個像 Andrew Tate 那樣的 progressive 版本，然後丟到網路上，加點水，

here's this new, suddenly globally famous alternative.

就會有一個全新的、突然全球知名的替代品出現。

online influence 不是這樣運作的。

But the bigger issue for me is that the best antidote to an unserious online male role model, I'm using that term advisedly, is an in real life flesh and blood actual man.

但對我來說，更大的問題是，一個不夠認真的 online male role model（我謹慎使用這個詞），最好的解藥，就是一個 in real life、有血有肉的真人。

By having male teachers, male coaches, fathers, uncles, neighbors, etc.

透過有男性老師、男性教練、父親、叔叔、鄰居等等。

Just being a living and breathing version of what it means to be a man.

活生生地展現出一個男人該有的樣子。

I continue to believe that in the long run, boys, young men, will believe their eyes more than their ears.

我一直相信，in the long run，男孩、年輕男性，會比相信耳朵聽到的，更相信眼睛看到的。

If there's a lack of real life men showing what it means to be a man rather than telling you how to be a man, then I think that creates a vacuum which then gets filled by online figures.

如果缺乏 in real life 的男性來展現男人該有的樣子，而不是告訴你該怎麼做男人，那麼我就認為這會製造一個 vacuum，然後被 online figures 填補。

I'm president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.

我是 American Institute for Boys and Men 的 president。

I'm also the author of the Book of Boys and why the Modern Male Is Struggling, why that Matters and what to Do About It.

我同時也是《Book of Boys》以及《Modern Male Is Struggling, why that Matters and what to Do About It》這兩本書的 author。

這是對抗 toxic male influencers 的解藥。

If we're not careful, these conversations can shut the conversation down with boys and young men rather than opening it up.

如果我們不小心，這些對話可能會 shut the conversation down，而不是 opening it up，讓男孩和年輕男性參與進來。

And so when we're talking about online influencers, we're talking about some of the kind of reactionary figures online.

所以當我們在談論 online influencers 時，我們談論的是一些在網路上比較 reactionary figures。

Sometimes parents sort of react to discovering that their son, for example, is consuming video content from somebody like Andrew Tate, pretty well known misogynist influencer.

有時候家長會對發現他們的兒子，例如，正在觀看像 Andrew Tate 這樣的人的影片內容感到有點不知所措，他是一位相當知名的 misogynist influencer。

It's almost like they're watching hardcore porn.

這幾乎就像他們在看 hardcore porn 一樣。

You know, they sort of, they slam the laptop with the same kind of moral fervor as if they caught them looking at some pretty kind of horrible porn.

你知道，他們會以一種道德上的熱情，就像抓到他們在看某種很糟糕的色情片一樣，猛地關上筆記型電腦。

You've got to figure out like, well, why are you interested in this?

你得要弄清楚，嗯，你為什麼會對這個感興趣？

Because one of the things that the most successful reactionary online figures say is nobody will want you to talk about watching my stuff or listening to my stuff.

因為最成功的 reactionary online figures 說的一件事就是，沒有人會希望你談論看我的東西或聽我的東西。

If you even mention to somebody that you're interested in this, watch how they react, watch how your mom reacts, watch how your school reacts and see how they react.

如果你只是跟別人提到你對這個感興趣，看看他們的反應，看看你媽媽的反應，看看你學校的反應，看看他們會怎麼反應。

他們幾乎，他們把它當成一個考驗。

And then, so sure enough, if you raise this issue, you say to your mom that you've been consuming some of this content or you're doubting some of what you've been taught.

然後，果然，如果你提出這個問題，跟你媽媽說你一直在看這些內容，或者你對你被教導的一些東西有所懷疑。

And if the reaction is immediate, like how dare you Watch.

如果反應是立即的，像是「你怎麼敢看」。

You've just proved the point that the reactionary was making.

你就證明瞭 reactionary 說的論點。

And this is one of those moments where it's hard.

But speaking here as a parent as much as a policy wonk, is that you take some deep breaths, you try to be open minded, you don't in any way compromise your own values and you have some curiosity and you try to become an ally and a partner to your son as they navigate this difficult online world and offline world.

不過，我同時身為家長和政策專家，我想說的是，你要深呼吸，試著保持開放的心態，絕對不要妥協自己的價值觀，保持好奇心，並試著成為你兒子在線上和線下世界探索時的盟友和夥伴。

And I worry sometimes that the uninformed, frankly reaction that many middle aged policymakers are having to some of these issues online, a they look out of touch and they sound out of touch, but

而且我擔心，很多中年政策制定者對這些線上議題的無知、坦白說的反應，讓他們看起來和聽起來都很脫節，但是

it also has this really chilling effect on an open conversation about what's really going on.

這也對關於真實情況的開放對話，造成了令人不寒而慄的影響。

And that then just drives these boys and young men even further into the recesses of what's online.

這反而會讓這些男孩和年輕人更進一步地鑽進網路世界的角落。

The question is, who's having an honest and good faith conversation about this?

問題是，誰在進行誠實、真誠的對話？

And I don't think that forcing boys and girls to kind of watch a fictional drama in schools, which is by definition fictional and not true to life in many ways, is going to open up that conversation.

我認為，強迫學校裡的男孩女孩觀看虛構的戲劇，這本質上是虛構的，而且很多方面都不貼近真實生活，這不會開啟那樣的對話。

At least it won't open it up for most boys.

至少對大多數男孩來說，這不會開啟對話。

So I worry that it'll actually backfire and be unhelpful.

所以我擔心這實際上會適得其反，沒有幫助。

There's a big difference between a show like adolescence becoming a big Netflix hit for people watching it and governments, as the UK government has proposing showing that in every secondary school, then it's an matter of policy and therefore I think it becomes an issue that we should pay more attention to.

像《青春調音師》在 Netflix 上成為熱門劇集，讓許多人觀看，這和英國政府提議在每間中學播放，是完全不同的事情，後者是政策問題，是以我認為這是一個我們應該更關注的問題。

And there's a real danger that you take something that's fictional and assume that it's more true to life than it really is.

而且，將虛構的東西誤以為比真實情況更貼近生活，這確實存在很大的風險。

It can make many parents fear that they're kind of inadvertently raising a monster, which is almost certainly not true.

這會讓許多家長擔心他們無意中養出一個怪物，但這幾乎肯定不是真的。

So the good news about something like a show like adolescence is that it draws attention to some of the kind of risks online, some of the more reactionary figures online.

所以像《青春調音師》這樣的節目帶來的好消息是，它引起了人們對網路上的一些風險、一些比較 reactionary figures 的關注。

But the downside is that it can run into this common problem we have when we're discussing the issues of boys and men, which is that they're just a couple of clicks away from becoming kind of an incel violent criminal.

但缺點是，這可能會遇到一個我們在討論男孩和男性議題時常有的問題，那就是他們離變成一個 incel 暴力罪犯，只差點擊幾下。

And their presumption that that might be about to happen can actually shut the conversation down.

而他們這種可能馬上就會發生的假設，實際上可能會 shut the conversation down。

我認為，你以為可以憑空創造出一個 progressive 版本的 Andrew Tate 或類似人物，然後丟到網路上，加水，

然後就出現了這個突然全球知名的替代品。

這不是 online influence 的運作方式。

It grows organically, it grows through algorithms, it grows through clicks.

它是透過演算法、點擊數，自然而然地成長。

And so I think it's just unrealistic to think you can somehow just create these things don't get created that way.

所以我覺得，你以為可以憑空創造出這些東西，它們不是這樣產生的，這想法很不切實際。

So first of all, it's very naive, I think.

所以首先，我認為這非常天真。

But the bigger issue for me is that the best antidote to an unserious online male role model, I'm using that term advisedly, is an in real life flesh and blood actual man in the lives of boys.

但對我來說，更大的問題是，對抗一個不嚴肅的 male role model（我謹慎使用這個詞），最好的解藥，就是男孩們生活中，一個 in real life、有血有肉的真實男人。

The way to beat the online version of it is by having male teachers, male coaches, fathers, uncles, neighbors, etc.

要擊敗網路上的版本，就是要讓老師、教練、父親、叔叔、鄰居等等男性出現。

就是活生生地展現一個男人該有的樣子。

I continue to believe that in the long run, boys, young men will believe their eyes more than their ears.

我一直相信，長遠來看，男孩、年輕男性會更相信他們親眼看到的，而不是聽到的。

And so if there isn't enough of a sense of what does it mean to be a man in my community, in my home, in my school, etc.

所以，如果我的社區、家庭、學校等等，對於「身為一個男人意味著什麼」的感覺不夠強烈，

如果現實生活中，有足夠的男人來示範「身為一個男人意味著什麼」，而不是告訴你該怎麼做，那麼我就覺得這會產生一個真空，然後被網路上的影響者填補。

I honestly believe that the way to beat the online world is offline, is in real life.

我真的相信，要擊敗網路世界的方法，就是離開網路，回到現實生活中。

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be online.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't, of course, support the people who are, and

這也不代表我們不該支持那些在網路上活躍的人，

there are lots of people in the so called manosphere, a term that I think is probably now redundant because I don't know who's included it anymore.

而且，在所謂的「男人圈」裡，有很多人，我認為這個詞現在可能已經多餘了，因為我不知道現在還包含哪些人。

But there are lots of guys online doing fitness stuff, doing kind of motivational stuff.

但網路上有很多男生在做健身、做一些激勵人心的事。

I really love, for example, Arnold Schwarzenegger's Pump Club.

我真的很喜歡，舉個例子，阿諾·史瓦辛格的「Pump Club」。

I don't know if you've seen any of that, but what's great about that is that, and

不知道你有沒有看過，但它很棒的地方是，

probably I sympathize with this, somebody will show a video of themselves doing their first push up, right?

而且，我可能也很有同感，有人會放上自己做第一次伏地挺身的影片，對吧？

And they managed to do like one or two push ups.

他們勉強做了一兩個伏地挺身。

And then Arnold himself will come on and say, that's great, go for it, etc.

然後阿諾本人會出現，說「太棒了，繼續加油！」等等。

It's incredibly warm and it's like welcoming.

這感覺非常溫暖，就像受到歡迎一樣。

And so there's a lot of really great stuff happening around this stuff online.

所以網路上有很多很棒的事情圍繞著這些內容發生。

But in the long run, you can beat an Andrew Tate video with a classroom exercise or a hike up the mountain with your scout group any day of the week.

但長遠來看，你隨時都可以用一個課堂練習，或是跟你的童子軍團爬山，來打敗 Andrew Tate 的影片。

If there's a young man and he kind of watches some stuff online and it's kind of, and

如果有個年輕人，他看了網路上的一些東西，然後

it drifts into kind of misogynist stuff, Whatever.

漸漸地接觸到一些厭女的內容，不管是什麼。

Then first of all, which man is he going to talk to about that?

那首先，他會跟哪個男人談論這件事呢？

Certainly it's something I spoke to my sons about.

這絕對是我跟我兒子們談過的事。

But who are they going to talk to about that?

但他們又能跟誰談論這件事呢？

Who are they going to test those ideas on?

他們會拿這些想法去試探誰呢？

So is there a man in their lives they can test that on?

所以他們生命中有個男人可以試探嗎？

But also then they're going to look at the guys and they're going to say, does my teacher or my scout leader or my uncle act like Andrew Tate?

但他們也會看看身邊的男人，然後問自己，我的老師、童子軍領袖或叔叔會像 Andrew Tate 一樣嗎？

Should we have male only spaces or female only spaces?

我們需要有純男性空間或純女性空間嗎？

Maybe we should just get rid of them altogether.

也許我們應該乾脆把這些都取消。

I think as a general point, we don't want them in the workplace as places where power and favors are traded.

我認為總體來說，我們不希望在工作場所出現這種交換權力和恩惠的場所。

There's a reasonable suspicion of what was called the old Boys club and the idea that kind of men were congregating in male spaces and that power and influence were being shared in those spaces.

我們合理地懷疑過去所謂的「舊 boys club」，也就是那種男性聚集在男性空間，並在這些空間裡分享權力和影響力的想法。

We quite rightly tried to turn against that.

我們很正確地試圖反對這種情況。

But that's very different to the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts.

但這跟童子軍和女童子軍非常不一樣。

It's very different to youth organizations.

And I think it's a mistake to move from the correct claim that we shouldn't have an old boys club to saying that we shouldn't have Boy Scouts or we shouldn't have single sex classes or even single sex sports for both boys and girls.

我認為，從我們不該有舊 boys club 這個正確的論點，推論到我們不該有童子軍，或不該有單性別課程，甚至不該有男女童子軍的單性別運動，這是個錯誤。

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「進步派的安德魯·泰特」無法根治男性激進化問題？理查·裡夫斯解析 (A “progressive Andrew Tate” isn’t the antidote to male radicalization | Richard Reeves)

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