Name: 藝術與文化：加強社區 I 2025 年研究員節 (Arts & Culture: Strengthening Communities I Fellows Festival 2025)
Uploaded: 2025-06-18T11:09:25.000Z
Duration: 47 min 2 s

動名詞

Our first panel this morning is an absolutely fantastic one on a topic of real importance of longstanding to the RSA, which is the role of arts and culture as a binding agent in communities.

今天上午的第一場專題討論會非常精彩，討論的主題對英國皇家藝術協會來說具有長期的現實意義，那就是藝術和文化在社區中的紐帶作用。

We have an amazing panel to my left, we have Melanie Abrahams chairing this amazing panel so please join me in welcoming to the stage Melanie and the panel.

我的左手邊是一個精彩的小組，梅蘭妮-亞伯拉罕斯（Melanie Abrahams）將主持這個精彩的小組，請和我一起歡迎梅蘭妮和小組成員上臺。

A very good morning to you and welcome to the RSA Fellows Festival.

大家早上好，歡迎參加英國皇家統計局研究員節。

It's so great to be here as well as part of the initial event looking at ways that we can strengthen communities.

很高興能來到這裡，並參與到探討如何加強社區建設的首次活動中來。

So our focus is on the vital role that arts and culture plays in strengthening communities and I'm sure many of you in the audience will have something to say about that and we will be welcoming questions later on.

是以，我們的重點是藝術和文化在加強社區建設方面發揮的重要作用，我相信在座的許多人都會對此有話要說，稍後我們將歡迎大家提問。

This session brings together three extraordinary panelists whose work creatively empowers people and places and my role is as a curator, a consultant and a founder of Renaissance One and for over 25 years I've championed diversity and well-being through multidisciplinary projects.

我的角色是策展人、顧問和 "文藝復興一號"（Renaissance One）的創始人，25 年來，我一直通過多學科項目倡導多樣性和福祉。

My name is Melanie Abrahams and for me it's important to celebrate community, creativity and connection.

我叫梅蘭妮-亞伯拉罕（Melanie Abrahams），對我來說，慶祝社區、創造力和聯繫非常重要。

So I'm delighted to be joined by Morag Myers-Gough, John Costey and Amy Vaughan, leaders at the intersection of artistic practice, community voice and cultural inclusion and I just want to give a bit of background to the speakers.

我很高興邀請到莫拉格-邁爾斯-高夫（Morag Myers-Gough）、約翰-科斯蒂（John Costey）和艾米-沃恩（Amy Vaughan），他們都是藝術實踐、社區聲音和文化融合領域的領軍人物。

So in the middle here, wonderfully dressed, Morag Myers-Gough.

中間這位是莫拉格-邁爾斯-高夫，她穿得非常漂亮。

Morag is a renowned artist and designer known for vibrant and large-scale public installations that energise communities and transform shared spaces.

莫拉格是一位知名的藝術家和設計師，以充滿活力的大型公共裝置而聞名，這些裝置為社區注入了活力，改變了共享空間。

John is a multidisciplinary artist whose socially engaged work reflects the identity, resilience and rehabilitation drawing from his lived experience.

約翰是一位多學科藝術家，他的社會參與作品反映了他的生活經歷中的身份認同、復原力和康復能力。

Amy is executive director at Battersea Arts Centre, a leading figure for venue management and policy making and organisational change over several decades and her career spans roles also at Arts Council England and the wider cultural sector as consultant, co-author and trustee and I'm looking forward to what she'll be doing over the coming months.

艾米是巴特西藝術中心（Battersea Arts Centre）的執行董事，數十年來一直是場館管理、政策制定和組織變革方面的領軍人物，她的職業生涯還包括在英格蘭藝術委員會（Arts Council England）和更廣泛的文化領域擔任顧問、合著者和受託人。

It's really great that you're here as an audience.

你們作為觀眾來到這裡真是太好了。

Please let's welcome them to this occasion.

What I'm going to do now and in between I'll be probably pouring some water as well because we've just arrived is I'll invite each of our three speakers to give a short two-minute introduction to their work and their practice in arts and culture just to set the scene and their perspective on the role of arts and culture in strengthening communities.

我現在要做的是請三位發言人每人做兩分鐘的簡短髮言，介紹他們的工作和在文化藝術領域的實踐，以便介紹一下情況以及他們對文化藝術在加強社區方面的作用的看法。

John, I suppose I'd start with in 2007 I was arrested for five armed robberies and sent to prison and while I was there and I discovered art it took that for me to feel like I could actually engage in it and since coming out I've worked, I've studied and worked as a tutor and artist and social practitioner.

約翰，我想我得從 2007 年說起，我因五次持槍搶劫被捕，並被送進監獄，在監獄裡我發現了藝術，這讓我覺得我可以真正參與其中，出獄後我一直在工作、學習，並擔任導師、藝術家和社會實踐者。

I do a lot of crime diversion stuff with people in prison and coming out of prison and work a lot with people that have lived experience whether it be drug issues or criminality yeah and I also have a studio practice and I'm based around the corner at Somerset House.

我為監獄裡和從監獄裡出來的人做了很多犯罪分流的工作，也為有吸毒或犯罪經歷的人做了很多工作，我還有一個工作室，就在薩默塞特宮的拐角處。

I work a lot on huge installations with community and we build the work together so and my work is really all structured around belonging and understanding belonging and how we can how that works in this world that we live in now.

我經常與社區一起製作大型裝置，我們共同完成作品，所以我的作品實際上都是圍繞著歸屬感和對歸屬感的理解，以及如何在我們現在生活的這個世界上實現歸屬感。

I wish I was but I'm not but I am an arts administrator which is really dull but I love it.

我希望我是，但我不是，不過我是一名藝術管理者，這真的很枯燥，但我喜歡。

I kind of fell into arts and culture I guess kind of through I dropped out of school early and it was the thing that I loved and it was the thing that saved me ultimately because I what I was really good at was getting stuff done and suddenly realised that here was this world that I could kind of make myself very useful in and so my career started in youth work and youth community working using the arts to help young people who had dropped out of school and went from there and then somehow I ended up at the Arts Council and stayed there for 10 years and had a wonderful time.

我很早就輟學了，而這正是我所熱愛的，也是它最終拯救了我，因為我最擅長的就是把事情做好，我突然意識到，在這個世界上，我可以讓自己變得非常有用，於是我的職業生涯開始於青年工作和青年社區工作，利用藝術幫助輟學的年輕人。

I absolutely loved it contrary to all sort of popular narrative about the Arts Council I found it great and now my bucket list organisation is always Bathsea Arts Centre so I'm delighted to have been there now for a few years.

我非常喜歡那裡，與所有關於藝術委員會的流行說法相反，我覺得它很棒，現在我的遺願清單上的機構總是巴斯海藝術中心，所以我很高興已經在那裡工作了幾年。

Thank you and such a rich background all three of you and I guess one of the reasons we're here is the value of communities is always important but one could argue more important than ever with the kind of fractures and the traumas that have taken place over the last few years including Covid but also there have been layers of funding cuts and other inequalities kind of persisting so I wanted to ask you you know whether you're drawing on the perspectives and experience of others or on yourself like what is the role that culture plays specifically or what role could it play in addressing these systemic inequalities?

謝謝你們，你們三位的背景都很豐富，我想我們在這裡的原因之一是，社區的價值一直都很重要，但可以說比以往任何時候都更重要，因為在過去幾年裡，包括科維德在內的社區出現了斷裂和創傷，而且還出現了層層資金削減和其他持續存在的不平等現象，所以我想問問你們，你們是否借鏡了他人或自己的觀點和經驗，比如文化在解決這些系統性不平等現象方面具體扮演了什麼角色，或者可以扮演什麼角色？

I mean I suppose I would see this from two sides really if I just think about it from the perspective of running an organisation like BAC, Bathsea Arts Centre, sorry for the organisation like that you're sort of you're always thinking about what you're delivering and what impact you're having and making kind of very very careful decisions about how you are I suppose using increasingly smaller and smaller resources to have as more and more impact and so you're sort of stretching yourself thinner and thinner and thinner and you begin to wonder whether you're actually still having the impact that this particular organisation was 10 years ago or 20 years ago or Bathsea was 50 this year, last year, and when we started to talk to people about the richness of that kind of the intersection with the community that had happened over the lifetime of that organisation you realise that actually the rocket fuel of the organisation isn't actually the money, it's the people and it's the communities that it works with, it's the communities that step up and save it every time it might nearly be going bankrupt, like it's all of those, it's that network that it's part of and it's just sort of reaffirmed to me that what an art space allows people to do in terms of a physical art space as in a big building sitting in South London is that it allows a space for conversations that can't necessarily happen in other spaces that feel difficult, that feel challenging, that feel joyous, it can be all of those things in one place and I sort of struggle to think where else that can happen and you can sort of intervene in different ways at different times depending on what is needed by the community at that point.

我的意思是，如果我從經營 BAC（巴斯海藝術中心）這樣的機構的角度來考慮，我想我會從兩個方面來看待這個問題、對不起，此內容只適用於English、當我們開始與人們討論該組織在其生命週期中與社區的豐富交集時，你會意識到該組織的火箭燃料實際上並不是錢、它是人，它是與之合作的社區，它是在每次幾乎要破產時挺身而出拯救它的社區，就像所有這些，它是那個網絡的一部分，這讓我再次認識到，藝術空間允許人們在一個物理藝術空間（如位於倫敦南部的一棟大建築）內所做的事情，就是它允許人們有一個對話的空間，而這種對話不一定能在其他空

No that's wonderful, from a personal perspective I live not too far away from Bathsea Art Centre and as an eight-year-old I used to play steel pan there and as someone of Caribbean heritage it was really important for me to have spaces that were safe but also offered aspects to cultural heritage, there weren't that many places that would offer that, you know what I mean, and more recently it's become like a sanctuary and an open space and a relaxed space, long before we knew about what relaxed performances were, so they've been very kind of groundbreaking in that, so yeah I can definitely endorse that and I think as well in terms of your individual practice, either venues and organisations are drawn to you by your inclusivity or you're drawn to them because certainly from what I see of your work you've been working within these spaces for some time, so thank you.

不，這很好，從我個人的角度來看，我住的地方離巴斯海藝術中心不遠，八歲的時候我經常在那裡演奏鋼片琴，作為加勒比海的後裔，有一個既安全又能提供文化遺產的空間對我來說真的很重要，沒有多少地方能提供這樣的空間，你知道我的意思，最近，這裡就像一個避難所，一個開放的空間，一個放鬆的空間、早在我們知道什麼是輕鬆表演之前，這裡就已經是一個開創性的地方了，所以我絕對贊同這一點，我認為就你個人的實踐而言，要麼是場地和組織被你的包容性所吸引，要麼是你被他們所吸引，因為就我所看到的你的作品而言，你已經在這些空間裡工作了一段時間，

Yeah well I like working on the streets and I like taking over places that have been ignored for a long time but they could actually bring communities together.

是啊，我喜歡在街頭工作，我喜歡接管那些長期被忽視的地方，但它們實際上可以把社區團結起來。

What I find often when I'm asked to do a project it often comes from a city that has a community-based arts group and they ask me and they have really big ambitions and then they tell me how much budget they've got and then I say well it's not about paying me, it's actually whether we can physically make this thing that you've got this aspiration for, but because people have these amazing aspirations I want to make that happen and the way to make that happen is to get everybody involved in the making of the project and also sourcing the materials and things and so when we start if that's the situation it's really important for me that everybody gets on board and then we find ways of making it happen and we do and then people get what they want, amazing things, and I feel like I want to help them make those amazing things as well and that's really empowering for them and for me as well.

我經常發現，當我被邀請做一個項目時，往往是一個城市的社區藝術團體向我提出請求，他們有非常大的抱負，然後他們告訴我他們有多少預算，然後我說，這不是付錢給我的問題，而是我們是否能實際做成你有這個抱負的東西、但是，因為人們有這些了不起的願望，所以我想讓這些願望成為現實，而實現這些願望的方法就是讓每個人都參與到項目的製作中來，同時採購材料和其他東西，所以當我們開始的時候，如果情況是這樣的話，對我來說非常重要的是，每個人都要參與進來，然後我們找到實現這些願望的方法，我們做到了，然後人們得到了他們想要的東西，了不起的

Yeah and I think looking at your work I think you've mentioned that the aspect of problem solving is important to you and I think that kind of aspect of being iterative or flexing the way that we problem solve some of these critical inequalities within our communities and society at large is also a really important skill and asset to have as well as an impetus to have as well rather than thinking that certain policies don't need changing and flexing and adapting to real life.

是的，我認為從你的工作來看，你提到了解決問題對你很重要，我認為這種迭代或靈活的方式也是一種非常重要的技能和資產，也是一種動力，而不是認為某些政策不需要改變、靈活和適應現實生活。

So thank you Maureen for the work you do and John I was also looking at the, you've co-curated an exhibition last year which was quite resounding and looked at different aspects of lived experience and some of your work has been unfolding and exploring not just your lived experience but the experience of others.

是以，感謝莫琳所做的工作，約翰，我也在看你去年共同策劃的一個展覽，這個展覽很有影響力，探討了生活經驗的不同方面，你的一些作品一直在展開，不僅探討了你的生活經驗，也探討了其他人的經驗。

Yeah, well most of the time I'm working in prisons and probation offices so it's mostly with people that have been taken away from their communities and often like very isolated, sometimes volatile people that maybe don't know how to express themselves and don't realise that art has many guises.

是的，我大部分時間都在監獄和緩刑辦公室工作，所以主要接觸的都是那些被帶離社區的人，他們通常都很孤僻，有時也很不穩定，也許不知道如何表達自己，也沒有意識到藝術有很多種形式。

So a lot of what I do is trying to convince people that art is an option for you to get this inner turmoil out and so like yesterday I was working with a group of guys who have all just left prison and every time we meet we say what they get from coming to the groups with me and it's in a community centre in Stevenage and we've wrote a play about their lived experience of the criminal justice system and also housing which is a massive problem at the moment and I get to see them transform and it's quite difficult to say exactly what that looks like.

是以，我所做的很多事情都是在試圖說服人們，讓他們相信藝術是你發洩內心騷動的一種選擇，就像昨天，我和一群剛從監獄出來的人一起工作，每次見面我們都會說，他們從和我一起參加的小組活動中得到了什麼，這是在斯蒂文尼奇的一個社區中心，我們寫了一出關於他們在刑事司法系統和住房方面的生活經歷的戲劇，住房是目前的一個大問題，我看到了他們的轉變，很難說這究竟是什麼樣子。

It's mostly they didn't speak at the beginning and now they're really excited and they have found a community together and there is a community of people who have healed themselves through art but you kind of have to seek them out a bit and once you meet them, I've got like a big list of people who I think are on my team, we're all trying to prove the capabilities of art in terms of healing and then there's other groups that I have to mix with in the art world who actually get really celebrated for their work but it doesn't have that aspect or that element even considered in the execution of an individual practice so I think working in groups of people is the most valuable kind of art you can engage in because I change worlds but it might be an individual world and perspective so in that I'm really proud that I can lift the vibration and spread some hopefully joy.

大部分人一開始都不說話，現在他們真的很興奮，他們已經找到了一個共同的群體，有一個通過藝術治癒自己的群體，但你必須去尋找他們，一旦你遇到他們，我已經有了一個大名單，我認為他們是我的團隊、我們都在努力證明藝術在治療方面的能力，然後還有其他一些我必須在藝術界混跡的群體，他們的作品實際上真的很受讚譽，但在個人實踐的執行過程中卻沒有考慮到這方面的因素，所以我認為在群體中工作是你所能從事的最有價值的一種藝術，因為我改變了世界，但可能是個人的世界和視角，所以在這一點上，我真的很自豪，因為我可以提升振動，傳播一些希望的快

Yeah and that aspect of empathy and listening that perhaps you're giving to people that might not be expecting it or might not have received it and we've been talking today about strengthening communities and I guess it's important to note that some individuals won't have good experiences with their biological families but they might find family and community through others, through arts and culture, through the different interactions they have and in terms of that, that aspect of finding family, finding community, could we maybe explore the aspect of what changes are needed in how the sector supports grassroots artists and initiatives because sometimes grassroots artists initiatives have been very much down in the pecking order of things and also we do have to address I think that aspect of institutions versing individuals like sometimes there are individuals within communities who are really playing to their strengths and punching above their weight you know and sometimes we might undervalue their kind of contribution towards things so if I could maybe turn to you Morag and ask you, what in your opinion would be any kind of changes that might be needed or useful in how the sector supports grassroots artists initiatives?

我們今天一直在討論加強社區建設，我想有必要指出的是，有些人在親生家庭中並沒有良好的經歷，但他們可能會通過其他人、通過藝術和文化、通過不同的互動找到家庭和社區、我們是否可以探討一下，文化部門在支持草根藝術家和活動方面需要做出哪些改變，因為有時草根藝術家的活動在很多方面都處於下風，而且我們也必須解決我認為的機構與個人之間的關係問題，比如有時社區中的一些個人真的在發揮他們的優勢，超越他們的體重，你知道，有時我們可能會低估他們對事物的貢獻、在你看來，在文化部門如何支持基層藝術家的活動方面，有哪些變革是必要的或有用

I don't know enough about the, I'm sorry coughing, or maybe from projects that you've taken part in what were their sort of ways in which grassroots artists initiatives were being particularly championed or supported?

我對你所參與的項目不夠了解，對不起，我咳嗽了一下，或許你參與的項目中，有哪些基層藝術家的倡議得到了特別的支持或擁護？

Yeah well I mean I'm just always blown away by all the different arts groups that I work with through the country and at the moment up north amazing groups of people who are bringing communities together and I think, and the Arts Council is giving money to places now much more than they used to, to those amazing people who are working so hard to make changes because they are just right in there with the community and they really know, when I've worked with all these different groups they know everybody and everything, all the young artists and all the thing and it's, you know they bring everybody together and that is a massive community and then they go further out as well so I think I'm not answering this question, but I don't know I'm just really, I find it very emotional about the commitment that all these different groups of people that I work with have and the energy that they have and the time they spend and it really is changing communities where there's a lot of unemployment and lots of other things happening and then all these people come together and when they come together there's such a sort of joy because we're all coming together on a different level, a level that they weren't expecting that they would enjoy and then they enjoy more than they think they do and then that continues.

是啊，我的意思是，我總是被全國各地與我合作的不同藝術團體所震撼，目前在北部，有很多了不起的團體，他們將社區團結在一起，我認為，藝術委員會現在給地方的資金比過去多得多、我認為，藝術理事會現在給地方的資金比過去多得多，因為他們非常努力地工作，以改變社區，他們真的很瞭解社區，當我與所有這些不同的團體合作時，他們瞭解每個人、每件事，所有的年輕藝術家和所有的事情，你知道，他們把每個人都聚集在一起，這是一個巨大的社區，然後他們也走得更遠，所以我想我沒有回答這個問題、但我不知道，我只是覺得，與我一起工作的這些不同的群體

But I mean I obviously just jump in and out of these situations more, but I think that's a good thing as well, so I just sort of, but I take loads from it as well, I learn all the time, I'm working at the moment in Germany and one of the biggest things that I think is one of the biggest issues is communities are separated out into different age groups depending on what your, where you are in your life and the biggest thing I've found is when you can put different people together and how that enriches everything rather than keeping people separate and so older people just love being around young people and young people get lots out of that as well and I did a word workshop with little ones to their 70s or 80s and actually when you read the words that people all wanted in their lives they were all the same, it was all about being kind to each other, sharing and that was over all the age groups, so we all, because I think recently we've been all these Gen Z, this, that, we're all separated out and actually I think the big thing is that we come together a bit more and forget about age, just think about the human being, the person you are rather than judging people by what they, you know, what you think, what, they're out, you know, on their age, I mean, you know.

我現在在德國工作，我認為最大的問題之一是社區被抽成不同的年齡組，取決於你的年齡、我發現最大的問題是，當你能把不同的人聚集在一起時，這能豐富一切，而不是把人分開，所以老年人喜歡和年輕人在一起，而年輕人也能從中得到很多、實際上，我認為最重要的是，我們要更多地走到一起，忘掉年齡，只要想想人，想想你是什麼樣的人，而不是以年齡來評判別人，你知道，你怎麼想，他們是什麼樣的人，你知道，我的意思是，你知道。

Thank you Maura, that's a lovely answer in terms of the, just the emphasis on coming together people of different backgrounds, intersectionality, kind of working together, which again, you know, is reflective of the value of strengthening communities and Amy are there any aspects that you think, any changes in the sector?

謝謝你，莫拉，你的回答很好，你強調了不同背景的人聚集在一起，強調了交叉性，強調了一起工作，你知道，這再次反映了加強社區和艾米的價值，你認為這個部門有什麼變化嗎？

Yeah, well, I mean, I was just going to reflect on it from the perspective of, like for me it's too difficult to get the money and then it's too difficult to evaluate and report back on the money, so like there's a cycle about how the funding is moving through the system and at the moment the process that you have to go through to get the minimum grant of like £10,000, £15,000 is incredibly difficult and then when you deliver the project you then have to report back on it and I think if you're a grassroots artist, number one, a lot of, when I was at ACE, I had a brilliant experience there, mainly because I was working, I've grown up in the East of England, I was director of the East of England office and it was a really brilliant opportunity actually to kind of like get in my car because there's no trains in the East of England and drive around and like, and I formed really brilliant relationships with places and I can remember working in Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth and the way I used to get their councillors, who were all on a very, very different political spectrum to me, you know, we were very far apart but there was things that we could agree on about what those places deserved in terms of infrastructure, in terms of investment and so we would just coalesce around those things and if I could get Lowestoft to do something, I knew I could get Great Yarmouth to do it because there was a power in communities wanting to be the best versions of themselves and be able to say well, you know, we're better than them down the road, you know, and so we sort of used to lean into that but they never wanted £15,000, what they wanted was 10, 500 quid grants that they could give out really easily without a huge amount of like bureaucracy and red tape around those grants and so we used to sort of try and find ways in which we could find different, I mean 10 years ago there were a few down the back of the sofa pots of cash at the Arts Council that you could kind of like, you know, all right and you give it to the council and then they give it to the local community action group, the community and actually things like that then became programmes like Creative People and Places and you know, big Arts Council schemes but I would even say those, they just by their very nature have become too complicated again because they become big, they're successful, they become a big amount of money and then that big amount of money requires significant justification of why the government should give the Arts Council that money to give out, so you just end up in this kind of cycle where people who are working directly with communities who need small amounts of money to get small projects off the ground that have huge impact can't get at that money and I think one of the things I'm really interested in is how we change, I can't change that application process, I tried for 10 years at the Arts Council, I was not successful but I think in terms of figuring out what evaluation, what social impact evaluation looks like in a way that isn't incredibly academic and incredibly, you know, leaving too many people behind because of the language that's being used around it, like how do you ask people if they feel better because they've been part of a particular group for six months in a really simple way and how do you give that to people that are running those community groups with those small grants so that they can just report back and because I think you can then lobby the funders, you can lobby the Paul Hamlin's, the Esme's, the Arts Council to say could you accept something simpler if we come up with an agreed language, so that's where I feel there's change that could be made, stop focusing on the money side because I think that will come because I think A's do get it and there's an understanding that needs to change and this review might change that as well but what's the other end, the reporting, how might we change that?

是的，我的意思是，我只是想從這樣一個角度來反思，比如對我來說，獲得資金太難了，然後對資金進行評估和報告又太難了，所以資金在系統中的流動就像一個循環，目前，你必須經歷的獲得最低補助金的過程，比如1萬英鎊、1.5萬英鎊，是非常困難的，然後當你交付項目時，你又必須對其進行報告，我認為如果你是一個草根藝術家，那麼第一，很多，當我在ACE工作時，我在那裡有過輝煌的經歷，主要是因為我在那裡工作，我在英格蘭東部長大，我是英格蘭東部辦事處的主任，那是一個非常好的工作機會、第一，我在ACE工作時，有很多輝煌的經歷，主要是因

Yeah thank you Amy, yeah and that does again relate to aspects of inclusion and equity as well as process and many other things, yeah, and John are there any sector changes that you feel need to happen to support grassroots artists?

是的，謝謝你，艾米，是的，這確實又涉及到了包容和公平的方面，以及過程和許多其他事情，是的，約翰，你覺得為了支持草根藝術家，有什麼部門變革需要發生嗎？

Well I recently got my DYCP grant for the first time and I would have never been able to do that without the access worker and in fact kind of all grants, as someone who's grown up working class, even just the idea that you can put together this text and submit it for money and you don't have to go and labour it, so you don't have to go and exchange like physical labour for or a painting or a product for money, I think that needs to be explained to people a bit better, like because of, there's a lot of people that don't know about, like when I went to school they taught us, you know, in order to make money from art, you know, you kind of had to die and then your work would be valuable, that's, and so for me as a teenager I thought well I'm not doing that, you know, I ended up going to prison which is pretty close but like but that, I think that that idea that, even I've got a friend who now is a talent scout but they wrote a letter to themselves when they were 18 and they said that they wanted to be an actor but that was the only job in the industry they knew, you know, so I think that, I think there needs to be maybe in secondary school or at least in colleges some information about how you might be able to do that because it took me a very long time and a lot of help, a lot of help, but I would have never been able to do that on my own, to cost every hour, that's something that I've never attempted so I think just access to that information and the grant workers, the one that I had was great so, and time, you know, time, if I did a project in Jaywick which I was kind of shipped out to Jaywick as this cultural sort of feeder in a way and I thought it was so problematic to me that you've got this stranger that's got an art degree that's going to land in the most deprived area in Britain and I'm going to give them something but the fact is these people have already got what they need, they just, it's more about the shift in perspective that a lot of what working class people have that they're not going to amount to that much ultimately, their aspirations aren't there, so when you can, but so it's quite, I think you have to be really sensitive when you're working with groups of marginalized people because sometimes the money's given to the wrong people ultimately and there's ego present, you know, and I think that if there was a person that was given money, like you were saying, that it should go directly to the community, not necessarily even the artist that's there, and for instance the South London Gallery have a building called the Art Block, right, they go, when they get their money they say to the kids there, what do you want to spend it on, that's how it should be, and they don't have to explain it, one year they wanted to make a swimming pool in there, you know, why not?

最近，我第一次拿到了 DYCP 助學金，如果沒有助學金得主，我根本不可能拿到這筆助學金，事實上，作為一個在工人階級中長大的人，所有的助學金都是如此、所以你不必去用體力勞動換取金錢 或者用一幅畫或者一件產品換取金錢 我認為這一點需要向人們解釋得更清楚一些 比如，因為有很多人不知道所以我十幾歲的時候就想，我不幹這個了，我最後進了監獄，雖然也差不多，但我覺得那個想法，甚至我有個朋友現在是星探，但他們在18歲的時候給自己寫了一封信，說他們想當演員，但那是他們在這個行業裡唯一知道的工作、你知道，所以我認為，我認為也

The Art Block is amazing, I worked on the first one for the Art Block and it was just, the kids were just so amazing and it really, they were really trying to get that transition where the little kids will play with art, but when they get to 14, 15, instead of joining drug gangs and things like that, they carry on and then they can be artists, and I really do, South London Gallery are really, it's amazing that the Art Block is, great, yeah, yeah, thank you John, and again it shows there's a stark difference between the sort of bottom-down approach to institutions and organisations, looking at individuals and then individuals looking up at institutions and organisations, when actually we're in the ecosystem with lots of constellations.

藝術區塊 "非常棒，我參與了 "藝術區塊 "的第一個項目，孩子們非常棒，他們真的在努力實現過渡，小孩子們會玩藝術，但當他們長到14、15歲時，他們不會加入販毒團伙之類的組織，而是會繼續下去，然後成為藝術家，我真的這麼認為、南倫敦畫廊真的很了不起，藝術街區也很了不起，太棒了，是的，是的，謝謝你，約翰，這也再次表明，機構和組織自下而上的方法與個人向上看機構和組織的方法之間存在著明顯的差異，而實際上我們正處於一個由許多星座組成的生態系統中。

I remember when I was first setting out, I sort of looked at all the organisations and the people that ran them and I tried to map out a sort of ecosystem to sort of work out where my path might be, and I did that as someone, you know, not of much means and no kind of lineage within the arts, and I guess there aren't that many organisations that are looking at who are the freelancers and the artists of note or of promise or who are merging talent who could be part of our ecosystem, so I guess there needs to be more of that kind of circular constellations of mapping, I think, in order to have more equity.

我記得剛開始創業的時候，我審視了所有的組織和管理這些組織的人，我試圖描繪出一個生態系統，找出我的發展道路，我當時的身份是，你知道，一個沒有太多經濟來源，也沒有藝術背景的人、我想，並沒有那麼多機構在關注誰是自由職業者，誰是知名藝術家，誰是有前途的藝術家，誰是可以成為我們生態系統一部分的融合人才，所以我想，需要有更多這樣的環形星座圖，我認為，這樣才能更加公平。

So I think, thank you so much for your contributions so far, I think we're going to open it up to the floor and I think there's a roving mic going round, and so does anyone have a question for the speakers?

所以我想，非常感謝你們到目前為止所做的貢獻，我想我們現在可以讓大家發言了，我想現在有一個巡迴麥克風，有誰想向發言人提問嗎？

Thank you very much for your presentations.

I'd like to ask a question to John really because you mentioned that you did some crime diversion stuff.

我真的想問約翰一個問題，因為你提到你做過一些轉移犯罪的工作。

Many years ago I worked for the Home Office, I visited lots of prisons and sometimes the artwork in prisons were quite impressive.

多年前，我在內政部工作，參觀過很多監獄，有時監獄裡的藝術品令人印象深刻。

I remember seeing a guy who had done something really bad, he'd shot somebody who had tried to stop to pull down the building that he put up in the wrong place, and he was in prison for a long time, and he used to paint very much in the style of Monet, and if Monet hadn't existed he would have been Monet.

我記得我曾見過一個人，他做了一件非常糟糕的事，他槍殺了一個試圖阻止他拆掉他在錯誤的地方建起的建築的人，他在監獄裡呆了很長時間，他曾經畫過非常具有莫奈風格的畫，如果莫奈不存在，他就會成為莫奈。

So my question really is, how successful is your work in diverting people from the criminal justice system?

是以，我的問題實際上是，你們在將人們從刑事司法系統中轉移出來方面的工作有多成功？

Are you having an impact on reducing reoffending?

你們對減少重新犯罪有影響嗎？

I am, but that doesn't mean that there are casualties in it as well.

我是，但這並不意味著其中也有傷亡。

I do lose people that get recalled, like in this current project I've lost two people to being recalled, and even the way that system is set up, if you breach your license conditions and you get sent back to prison, that's quite a big percentage of our prison population, and our prison population is over 99% full right now, and something terrible will happen very soon.

我確實失去了一些被召回的人，比如在目前這個項目中，我就失去了兩個被召回的人，而即使是這樣的系統設置，如果你違反了許可條件，你就會被送回監獄，這在我們的監獄人口中佔了相當大的比例，而我們的監獄人口現在已經超過了 99%，很快就會發生一些可怕的事情。

There are already several people who have been recalled, and they will get all of that information.

已經有幾個人被召回，他們將得到所有這些資訊。

Every day we ask the gentlemen that join us, but unfortunately you can't prove that these men aren't committing crimes, so you can only quantify through testimony in that respect, because they might have just got better at evading capture, and that's what you will be faced with.

每天我們都會詢問加入我們的先生們，但不幸的是，你無法證明這些人沒有犯罪，所以你只能通過證詞來量化這方面的情況，因為他們可能只是在逃避抓捕方面做得更好了，這就是你將面臨的問題。

At the moment I'm working quite a lot voluntarily, because I want this play to be amazing, because of next year that funding isn't guaranteed, so if anybody wants to come to see a play in Stevenage on the 9th of July, am I allowed to do this?

目前，我正在做大量的志願工作，因為我希望這部劇能夠出彩，因為明年的資金就沒有保障了，所以如果有人想在 7 月 9 日到斯蒂文尼奇看戲，我可以這樣做嗎？

On the 9th of July there's a play that's been written by a group of called Something Inside, and I'm sure we'll be able to get the details to you somehow, but my answer is ultimately there isn't really an easy way of doing that, it's through testimony.

7 月 9 日，有一個名為 "內心的東西"（Something Inside）的團體創作了一部戲劇，我相信我們會以某種方式向你們提供細節，但我的答案是，最終沒有一種簡單的方法，只能通過見證。

I've had that problem for over a decade of trying to prove that these things work, there is enough literature to say that it does, and I had a meeting with Arts Council recently, because we're trying to pair universities with prisons at the moment, because of why isn't every prison a creative hub?

十多年來，我一直在努力證明這些東西是有效的，有足夠的文獻證明它是有效的，最近我和藝術委員會開了個會，因為我們正試圖將大學和監獄結合起來，因為為什麼不是每個監獄都是創意中心呢？

When you go to prison you don't really see people getting better, you don't see the system making them better anyway, you see people taking control of their lives, often through finding a passion, and being able to make art in a place like that where you can reinvent yourself, and maybe at the end get some praise, which you probably haven't had for a very long time, that's when the stirrings might happen, and that's when you could maybe think that maybe I could contribute something, whether it be a pretty picture or a nice poem, whatever it is, that could heal a relationship, which then when you leave, maybe your family will let you stay under their roof, which then would save money in the long run.

當你走進監獄，你不會看到人們真的變好了，你也不會看到監獄系統讓他們變好了，你看到的是人們掌控自己的生活，通常是通過找到一種激情，能夠在這樣一個地方創造藝術，在那裡你可以重塑自我，也許最後會得到一些讚美，而你可能已經很久沒有得到過讚美了、這時候，你可能會想到，也許我可以貢獻點什麼，不管是一幅漂亮的畫還是一首好詩，不管是什麼，這都可以治癒一段感情，然後當你離開的時候，也許你的家人會讓你留在他們的屋簷下，從長遠來看，這可以省下一筆錢。

But don't you think with all these things, with evaluations, everybody wants it to be instant, and you could do like a workshop for a six-year-old, and then 20 years later they go to art school or something just because they went to that workshop, but at that time they didn't, you know, so I think with all these things, sometimes things have to embed in a lot longer, people have to find their own time and space for that actual, but what you've done is you've shown them another way of looking at things, another way of seeing things, and that sparked that, you know, that thought process, isn't it?

但你不覺得，對於所有這些東西，對於評估，每個人都希望它是即時的，你可以為一個六歲的孩子做一個工作坊，然後20年後，他們去藝術學校或什麼的，只是因為他們去了那個工作坊，但在那個時候，他們沒有，你知道的、所以我認為，對於所有這些事情，有時需要更長的時間來沉澱，人們必須找到自己的時間和空間來進行實際操作，但你所做的是，你向他們展示了看待事物的另一種方式，看待事物的另一種方法，這就激發了他們，你知道，那個思考過程，不是嗎？

That's what the art class can do in a prison, because most people in prison as well have had terrible experiences of education, so they go into an art room and they're already, you know, tense because they're in prison, and then if you put a sheet of paper in front of men that are in prison, and they're like, well, I'm going to be in jail for this, I might kick off, then that piece of paper becomes a vehicle for, you know, a much calmer way of communicating and saying the unsayable.

這就是藝術課在監獄裡的作用，因為監獄裡的大多數人都有過糟糕的教育經歷，所以他們走進藝術教室時，他們已經因為在監獄裡而感到緊張，如果你把一張紙放在監獄裡的人面前，他們就會想，好吧，我就要因為這個進監獄了，我可能會被踢出去，那麼那張紙就會成為一種載體，你知道，一種更平靜的交流方式，說出那些無法說出的話。

Marag, you mentioned the power of intergenerational relationships for reinforcing communities.

馬拉格，你提到了代際關係對於鞏固社區的力量。

I have a question in relation to society, on the role, not necessarily for you the question, but the role of art for breaking down silos across communities.

我有一個與社會有關的問題，關於藝術的作用，不一定是針對你的問題，而是關於藝術在打破社區間隔閡方面的作用。

I could answer it from just in terms of Battersea, because one of the things that we're doing a lot of thinking about at the moment is that Battersea is in an old town hall that was built in the 1890s and it has a long history of being a sort of place for radical thought and radical speech and radical politics, and the only ever communist MP in the UK's seat was at Battersea Town Hall, and suffragettes met at Battersea Town Hall.

我可以從巴特西的角度來回答這個問題，因為我們目前正在思考的一個問題是，巴特西的市政廳建於 19 世紀 90 年代，歷史悠久，是激進思想、激進言論和激進政治的發源地，英國有史以來唯一一位共產主義議員的席位就在巴特西市政廳，女權主義者也在巴特西市政廳會面。

It has this wonderful, wonderful history to it, so when you're there as an art centre, and we're just custodians of that place, you've got to sort of move into that space of our main performance space is the old council chamber, and it has the nays and the yays over the top of the door as the eyes and the nose as you go in, and so it's a place for debate, and so we have to sort of challenge ourselves all the time about how do you position yourself as an organisation which is there for creative expression and freedom of speech and make sure that you're able to safely hold both sides of a debate, which is what the history of that building always was, and I think that's really difficult for an art centre to do, really difficult, because in the main there are groups of society that you naturally align with, many, and then there are groups in society that you naturally don't align with, and so as an organisation, how you navigate that, but I genuinely believe if you do it really carefully and with a lot of thought and you bring voices from both, you know, and you put, sorry I'm really going off off piste, but I think you've got to pick your debate, like let's not try and solve absolutely everything all at once, but how might we come together to talk about some very specific, a very specific issue in a way that's really well held, really well facilitated, and everybody gets listened to, and I think, I feel that buildings in particular have a role to play there, and that doesn't have to be a purpose-built arts building, but spaces in communities where people feel like they can come through the front door, they can buy a cup of coffee, and they can sit in a room and have a conversation, and so that for me just feels like, and I think more personally, I feel too many arts organisations will immediately step forward and side with something very particular, or sort of wear their heart on their sleeve, and what you're doing when you do that is actually you're potentially excluding a whole raft of conversations that then get more and more siloed, you get more and more conflict, and actually I feel like arts institutions need to be put, need to be the spaces where those things can happen, even though it's difficult.

我們的主要表演空間是舊議會廳，門上有 "反對 "和 "贊成 "的字樣，就像你進去時的眼睛和鼻子、是以，這是一個辯論的地方，所以我們必須一直挑戰自己，如何將自己定位為一個為創意表達和言論自由而存在的組織，並確保能夠安全地容納辯論的雙方、我認為這對一個藝術中心來說真的很難做到，真的很難，因為在社會中，有很多群體是你自然而然地與之保持一致的，而社會中也有一些群體是你自然而然地與之不一致的，所以作為一個組織，你該如何駕馭這些群體，但我真的相信，如果你做得非常仔細，並經過深思熟慮，並將雙方的聲音都帶進來，你知道，你

Yeah, thank you very much to all the panellists and to Melanie for sharing so successfully.

是的，非常感謝所有小組成員和梅蘭妮的成功分享。

I wanted to ask a question in regards to the support for the grassroots organisations.

我想問一個關於支持基層組織的問題。

One of the challenges, as you all said, was funding, and when we make the case about funding for the arts, for the sector in general, in the country we always talk about how much the sector contributes to the economy, all these billions of pounds that we contribute, but we don't, I think John, you touched a little bit about this, about the amount of people that volunteer or work very lowly pay in the sector, so we hardly hear about them, and we are the ones who are actually making the sector function, so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

你們都說過，其中一個挑戰是資金問題，當我們在全國範圍內為藝術、為藝術界提供資金時，我們總是談論藝術界對經濟的貢獻有多大，我們貢獻了數十億英鎊，但我們並沒有，我想約翰，你也提到了一點，那就是有很多人在藝術界做志願者或從事報酬很低的工作，所以我們幾乎沒有聽到他們的消息，而我們才是真正讓藝術界發揮作用的人，所以我想聽聽你對此的看法。

Well, I think as an artist you're kind of never off the clock, so if I was to work out how much labour goes into certain projects, it would be less than minimum wage that I'm taking home, and there may be a consolation in loving what I do, but that doesn't kind of wash, you know, I should still be paid for the time that I've put into the project, but I guess I've tried to find sponsors and things like that, which has ended quite awkwardly, to be honest.

我認為，作為一名藝術家，你永遠不會下班，是以，如果我要計算出某些項目需要投入多少勞動力，我拿回家的工資可能還不到最低工資標準，也許熱愛自己的工作會讓我感到欣慰，但這並不能說明問題，你知道，我還是應該為我投入項目的時間獲得報酬，但我想我已經嘗試過尋找贊助商之類的事情，老實說，結果很尷尬。

I don't know, I don't, if I'm entirely honest, you know, I've been making, I started my BA, I left prison in 2010 and I started my BA straight from prison, I actually had day release for my interview, and so I've been doing this for 15 years, and I'd say only in the last one, maybe 18 months, has it actually made sense for me to do.

我不知道，我不知道，如果我完全誠實，你知道，我一直在做，我開始我的學士學位，我在2010年離開監獄，我開始我的學士學位直接從監獄，我實際上有一天釋放我的採訪，所以我一直在做這個15年，我會說，只有在過去的一個，也許18個月，它實際上是我做的意義。

The rest of the time I've been, it's been passion projects, you know, and that idea of success, and then even peeking behind a red velvet curtain maybe, and seeing that maybe that's not what I want, because there's a lot of, like I touched on before, there are people that get celebrated and bankrolled, who make quite sort of time-stamped work, or like work that has a very short trend, like an expiry date, that doesn't kind of, that is just a luxury product, ultimately, they seem to do really well, but I'm doing another project at the moment at Somerset House, I'm going to plug again, sorry, that on the 8th of June there's an artist's fair, and as part of the artist's fair, I'm asking people to tell me what their issues are in the art world, and we're going to open up these ballot boxes that I have plotted around, and talk about that, I think one of the big problems is that on the surface people want to look like it's okay, and not that they are, you know, I know people are skipping most, because especially if you're living in London, it's not easy, you know, I don't know, I don't have an answer for that, unfortunately, I think that, and I'm certainly not resigned to like this idea of the poor artist either, like I'm not doing that, so somehow I find a way, and I've been very lucky that I grew up in London, I've got a support network here, so I could go and crash, you know, but there were times when I'd have to go and crash at my mum's house, and my brother's, and things like that, and I've been really lucky in that sense, if I studied, if I was from somewhere else, if I was from Birmingham, and I came to London to study, I wouldn't have been able to sustain the art practice in the same way, I would have had a, you know, a big percentage of my attention going towards earning money, that I could kind of live a, you know, a lovely artist's life for a bit, I'm not lovely as, you know, a sort of, you know, the tortured artist, whatever, I could do that poetic kind of life for a bit, but it doesn't last.

其餘的時間，我一直在做激情項目，你知道的，還有那種成功的想法，甚至是窺探紅色天鵝絨幕布背後的想法，然後發現也許那並不是我想要的，因為有很多人，就像我之前提到過的，有一些人得到了讚譽和資助，他們做的都是有時間戳的作品，或者是趨勢很短的作品，就像有效期一樣，沒有那種，只是一種奢侈品，最終，他們似乎做得非常好、但我現在正在薩默塞特宮做另一個項目，我又要插播一次，抱歉，6月8日有一個藝術家博覽會，作為藝術家博覽會的一部分，我要求人們告訴我他們在藝術界的問題是什麼、我們將打開這些投票箱 我已經計劃好了，並談論這個，

Thank you John, we've got one last question here.

謝謝你，約翰，我們還有最後一個問題。

I'm interested in this small pots of money to fund community initiatives, I mean community chests are great, but the problem is we have a sort of local authorities who aren't providing that money, it's local councils, that's my, it'd been my experience in the past, who fund quality of life initiatives, is this an action probably from this day, we need to be pressing local authorities to adequately fund quality of life initiatives?

我對這些用於資助社區活動的小額資金很感興趣，我的意思是，社區公益金很好，但問題是，我們有一些地方當局並沒有提供這些資金，而是由地方議會提供，這是我過去的經驗，他們為提高生活品質的活動提供資金，從今天起，我們是否需要向地方當局施加壓力，要求他們為提高生活品質的活動提供充足的資金？

No, but I think it's a real, from in the 10 years that I was at ACE, the decline in local authorities, and not just about their money, but about the expertise they have in them as well, oh the amount of calls that we used to get, I said, oh Ipswich County Council decided to move the Arts Department into the Environmental Department, and you're like, what, why?

不，但我認為這是一個真實的現象，從我在ACE工作的10年裡，地方當局的衰落，不僅僅是關於他們的錢，還有他們的專業知識，哦，我們過去接到的電話數量，我說，哦，伊普斯維奇郡議會決定把藝術部搬到環境部，你會說，什麼，為什麼？

Well, you know, there's lots of expertise, and it's like, is there?

嗯，你知道，有很多專業知識，這就像，有嗎？

And just the sort of, it always used to strike me that you, there was a lack of sort of facilitation in local authorities to understand how they could empower people in the communities who already knew what needed to be done, to do those things by just giving them small pots of money, which in comparison to what they were having to spend on the bins and, you know, everything else, would be really, really tiny and incredibly impactful, and you spend an awful lot of time at the Arts Council convincing local authorities to keep their money on the table.

我一直覺得，地方政府缺乏推動力，不知道如何增強社區居民的能力，讓他們知道需要做什麼，只需給他們一小筆錢就能做這些事，而這些錢與他們不得不花在垃圾箱和其他方面的錢相比，真的非常非常少，但卻有難以置信的影響力，你在藝術理事會花了很多時間說服地方政府把錢放在桌上。