Name: 解密 "信號門"：美國戰爭計劃洩露 | 吉塔的世界，第 121 集 (Decoding “Signalgate”: US War Plans Leak | Geeta's World, Ep 121)
Uploaded: 2025-05-23T15:20:45.000Z
Duration: 22 min 31 s

to 不定詞

Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, who was included, who was, a request was sent to him by none other than Mike Walsh, the National Security Advisor himself, to join a Signal group.

傑弗裡-戈德堡（Jeffrey Goldberg），《大西洋月刊》（The Atlantic）的主編，他也在其中，不是別人，正是國家安全顧問邁克-沃爾什（Mike Walsh）本人向他發出了加入信號小組的請求。

This can't be true, that you have Tulsi Gabbard, JD Vance, Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, Ratcliffe, all of them on this chat.

這不可能是真的，你有Tulsi Gabbard、JD Vance、Pete Hegseth、Marco Rubio、Ratcliffe，他們都在這個聊天室。

And then the conversation went on to talk about a war plan, an attack plan.

然後，他們繼續談論戰爭計劃和攻擊計劃。

It had an entire spreadsheet of the kind of weapons that they're going to use.

它有一個完整的電子表格，列出了他們將要使用的武器種類。

Hello, and welcome back to Geeta's World.

I'm your host, Shashank Matthew, sitting down as we try to do every week with Geeta Mohan, the foreign affairs editor of India Today.

我是主持人沙尚克-馬修（Shashank Matthew），每週我們都會邀請《今日印度》（India Today）的外交編輯吉塔-莫漢（Geeta Mohan）坐在一起。

It's the podcast where we sit down, reflect on the biggest news story of the week, and try to break down what it all means.

在這個播客中，我們坐下來，思考本週最大的新聞事件，並嘗試分析這一切意味著什麼。

And of course, it had to be the story, Signalgate, the big, of course, intelligence scandal that's broken out in the United States, where a journalist, a editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, which is an American newspaper, was added to a secret messaging chat with very, very senior members of the Trump administration, including the Vice President, the Defense Secretary, the Secretary of State.

當然，不得不提的還有 "信號門 "事件。"信號門 "是美國爆出的一大情報醜聞，一名美國報紙《大西洋月刊》（The Atlantic）的主編、記者與特朗普政府非常非常高級的成員，包括副總統、國防部長和國務卿，進行了祕密資訊哈拉。

And this journalist was privy to war plans, including American attempts to strike Yemen and the Houthi rebels.

這名記者瞭解戰爭計劃，包括美國打擊葉門和胡塞叛軍的企圖。

There are lots of questions about national security, intelligence, and incompetence, perhaps most starkly on behalf of the Trump administration.

有很多關於國家安全、情報和無能的問題，最突出的可能是特朗普政府的問題。

So I'm going to start by asking Geeta Mohan to perhaps explain to us, what is Signalgate?

所以，我想先請吉塔-莫漢（Geeta Mohan）給我們解釋一下，什麼是信號門？

就這樣進入了這個雜草叢生的地方。

Well, for now, I think everybody who tracks and looks at foreign policy, international stories, knows what's happening over here in the United States of America in terms of the signal controversy.

現在，我想每一個跟蹤和關注外交政策和國際新聞的人，都知道美國在信號爭議方面發生了什麼。

It was, like you said, Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, who was included, a request was sent to him by none other than Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor himself, to join a signal group.

就像你說的，《大西洋月刊》的主編傑弗裡-戈德堡（Jeffrey Goldberg）也在其中，國家安全顧問邁克-華爾茲（Mike Waltz）親自向他發出了加入信號小組的請求。

And then he sees that there are all these names, which are initials, and you know, some are initials, some are names.

然後他看到了所有這些名字，這些名字都是首字母縮寫，你知道，有些是首字母縮寫，有些是名字。

And you know that, okay, these are the names.

你知道，好吧，這些都是名字。

And he actually thought that somebody was just trying to play a fast one on them.

實際上，他認為有人想耍他們。

And this can't be true, that you have Tulsi Gabbard, JD Vance, Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, Ratcliffe, all of them on this chat.

這不可能是真的 Tulsi Gabbard、JD Vance、Pete Hegseth、Marco Rubio、Ratcliffe，他們都在哈拉。

And then the conversation went on to talk about an attack plan attacking Yemen.

然後，談話繼續談及襲擊葉門的攻擊計劃。

It had an entire spreadsheet of the kind of weapons that they're going to use, and the time, all of that.

它有一個完整的電子表格，列出了他們要使用的武器種類、時間，以及所有這些。

But I like how Jeffrey himself has sort of explained the story in two very important words.

但我喜歡傑弗裡自己用兩個非常重要的詞來解釋這個故事。

He says, you know, the cavalier attitude of the officials, because you just added someone, nobody bothered to check this JG initials are meant to be for.

他說，你知道，官員們的輕率態度，因為你剛加了一個人，沒有人去檢查這個 JG 首字母縮寫是什麼意思。

And then, when he saw all this, and the chat stopped, he quietly removed himself.

然後，當他看到這一切，哈拉停止時，他悄悄地離開了。

And then he says, the other way of defining the entire bunch of people is absolutely, he said, to put it politely, incurious, that you added me, and nobody noticed is one thing.

然後他說，定義這群人的另一種方式是絕對的，他說，不客氣地說，不好奇，你加了我，沒人注意到是一回事。

The gentleman just left the group, you're seeing the some JG has left the group, and nobody followed up.

這位先生剛剛離開了群組，你看到的是一些 JG 離開了群組，但沒有人跟進。

直到他開始工作才有人打電話來。

He said he was waiting outside a mall to see what's happening.

他說，他在一家商場外等著看發生了什麼事。

然後他意識到這不是一個騙局。

But to confirm his story, he then wrote to every individual on the group separately.

但為了證實他的說法，他又分別給小組的每個人寫了信。

And while they're all denying it, and they're saying that thing confidential, he himself says that the Department of Defense were they were quite professional about it, because they did write back saying that no, this is this was an official group.

雖然他們都否認這一點，並說這件事是機密，但他自己說，國防部在這件事上是相當專業的，因為他們確實回信說，不，這是一個官方組織。

And we are trying to figure out how you added to it.

我們正試圖弄清你是如何添加進去的。

And of course, the questions and incurious and curious.

當然，還有各種問題和好奇心。

But then the big question is, what does that mean for United States national security?

但最大的問題是，這對美國的國家安全意味著什麼？

The reporter, of course, the journalist in question, removes himself from the group, of course, has all this information, all of those chats have many of the chats have come out.

當然，記者，也就是當事記者，從這個群裡刪除了自己，當然，他掌握了所有這些資訊，所有這些聊天記錄已經有很多被曝光了。

Some of those chats are, of course, being held by Jeffrey Goldberg himself, because they may include classified information.

當然，其中一些哈拉內容是由傑弗裡-戈德堡親自主持的，因為其中可能包含機密信息。

But lots of questions now being asked about the fact that look, this is Signal, this is a commercially available chat app, it may be secure, but it's not as secure as a government secure communications website, which is how some of these meetings are supposed to happen.

但現在很多人都在質疑，你看，這是Signal，這是一個市面上的哈拉應用，它可能是安全的，但它不如政府的安全通信網站安全，而政府的安全通信網站才是這些會議應該發生的方式。

You're supposed to if you're discussing sensitive intelligence matters, you're supposed to meet in the situation room of the White House and have these conversations.

如果你們要討論敏感的情報問題，你們應該在白宮的情況室裡會面，進行這些談話。

And a lot of people are saying that, look, everyone knows that there are signals intelligence officers, including Republicans, Republican representatives, I was reading one who's been in the army, who's a signals intelligence officer, and was saying that, we know for a fact that Russia and China are going to be surveilling or trying to hack apps like Signal, and they could have...

很多人都在說，聽著，每個人都知道有信號情報官員，包括共和黨人，共和黨代表，我讀到一位曾在軍隊服役的信號情報官員的文章，他說，我們知道一個事實，即俄羅斯和中國將監視或試圖入侵Signal等應用程序，他們可能...

And they could have serious information about the devices that these top American officials are going to be using.

他們可能掌握這些美國高官將要使用的設備的重要資訊。

So there are a few important security issues over here, Shashank, but we will talk about that.

是以，這裡有幾個重要的安全問題，沙尚克，但我們會討論這個問題。

First, what we should be doing is listening into what the Senate hearing...

首先，我們應該做的是傾聽參議院聽證會...

沒錯，這是一場精彩的聽證會。

They tore into everybody, but what comes out of it are a few very important things.

他們對每個人都大加撻伐，但從中得出了幾件非常重要的事情。

Two things, they said that, one, how are you on a signals group?

有兩件事，他們說，第一，你在信號組裡怎麼樣？

Secondly, are you allowed to have a signals group for confidential conversations, especially operational information or plans?

其次，你們是否可以設立一個信號組，用於保密談話，特別是業務資訊或計劃？

To which Tulsi Gabbard and the CIA director said that, well, signals is allowed.

對此，圖爾西-加巴德和中央情報局局長表示，嗯，信號是允許的。

And then the second thing they've said, this is at the Senate hearing, that no classified information was shared on the group.

第二件事是，他們在參議院聽證會上說，沒有共享關於該組織的機密信息。

So let's just listen to what happened, and then we'll come back.

我們先聽聽發生了什麼，然後再回來。

There was no classified material that was shared in that signal.

該信號中沒有共享任何機密材料。

So then if there was no classified material, share it with the committee.

所以，如果沒有機密材料，就與委員會分享。

Bobbing and weaving and trying to, you know, filibuster your answer.

搖頭晃腦，試圖 "拉布 "你的回答。

Director Gabbard, if this was a rank and file intelligence officer who did this kind of careless behavior, what would you do with them?

加巴德局長，如果是一名普通情報人員做出這種粗心大意的行為，你會怎麼處理他們？

Senator, I'll reiterate that there was no classified material that was shared in that...

參議員，我重申，沒有任何機密材料被共享在...

And if there's no classified materials, share.

如果沒有機密材料，也可以共享。

Senator, I was on a signal messaging group.

參議員，我參加了一個信號傳遞小組。

So you were the John Ratcliffe on that chat?

你就是那次哈拉中的約翰-拉特克利夫？

Can I provide some context, Senator, to that?

參議員，我能提供一些背景情況嗎？

But I think it's important because at the outset, you made a couple of comments about signal messaging using encrypted apps.

但我認為這很重要，因為在一開始，你就對使用加密應用程序發送信號資訊發表了一些看法。

So that we're I was confirmed as CIA director, was signal was loaded onto my computer at the CIA, as it is for most CIA officers.

是以，我被確認為中情局局長後，信號就被加載到我在中情局的電腦上，對大多數中情局官員來說都是如此。

One of the things that I was briefed on very early, Senator, was by the CIA records management folks about the use of signal as a permissible work use.

參議員，我很早就聽取了中央情報局檔案管理人員關於將信號作為允許的工作用途的介紹。

我們已經聽到了他們要說的話。

Now, of course, Senator Mark Warner, who is, of course, a Democrat said that, look, if there is nothing that is classified in these conversations, release these conversations, let them be publicly available.

當然，身為民主黨人的參議員馬克-華納（Mark Warner）說，聽著，如果這些對話中沒有任何機密內容，那就公開這些對話，讓公眾可以看到。

If there's nothing classified, put them out.

如果沒有什麼機密，就把它們放出來。

And if things are classified, then what were you doing on that signal group?

如果事情是保密的，那你在信號組上做了什麼？

難道不應該讓他們付出代價嗎？

Yeah, the conversation and you put out an entire plan.

是的，談話中你提出了一個完整的計劃。

So if they have to release it, they'll have to release all the things that were said and shared, which included the entire plan.

是以，如果他們必須公佈它，他們就必須公佈所有說過和分享過的東西，其中包括整個計劃。

It had the plan of what time, what is going to take off, which area is going to be bombed when, it had a detail of what weapon systems are going to be used for this attack.

它有計劃在什麼時間、什麼地點起飛、什麼時間轟炸哪個地區，它還有這次襲擊將使用什麼武器系統的細節。

Especially because, you know, what I've seen is that, you know, some of the reporting coming out of the American media has been absolutely damning, because it's going after each and every single one of the people involved in these meetings and saying that, look, you have in the past, attacked the past democratic administrations, your political opponents, Hillary Clinton, saying that you guys have used private service, you're endangering national security, heads must roll.

特別是因為，你知道，我所看到的是，你知道，美國媒體的一些報道絕對是令人震驚的，因為它在追問每一個參與這些會議的人，並說，聽著，你們在過去攻擊了過去的民主政府，攻擊了你的政治對手希拉里-克林頓，說你們使用了私人服務，你們在危害國家安全，必須滾蛋。

Now people are citing those very same quotes back to them and saying, National Security Advisor, Michael Waltz.

國家安全顧問邁克爾-華爾茲（Michael Waltz）。