Name: 美國礦產協議是烏克蘭的勝利嗎？問題解答 | 英國廣播公司新聞 (Is the US minerals deal a win for Ukraine? Your questions answered | BBC News)
Uploaded: 2025-05-03T00:17:50.000Z
Duration: 31 min 4 s

Hello, and welcome to a special edition of UkraineCast, which is being broadcast both on the BBC News Live page and also on the BBC iPlayer.

大家好，歡迎收看烏克蘭廣播特別節目，該節目將在 BBC 新聞直播頁面和 BBC iPlayer 上播出。

I'm Ukraine correspondent James Waterhouse.

我是駐烏克蘭記者詹姆斯-沃特豪斯。

我是奧爾加-羅賓遜，英國廣播公司的核查員。

And I'm James Landale, the BBC's diplomatic correspondent.

我是英國廣播公司外交記者詹姆斯-蘭代爾。

Lots to discuss today and so many of your questions that we're going to try and get to.

今天要討論的內容很多，你們的問題也很多，我們會盡力解答。

But of course, overnight, we learned that Ukraine and the US signed a much-anticipated natural resources deal.

當然，一夜之間，我們得知烏克蘭和美國簽署了一項備受矚目的自然資源協議。

You'll know there was months of tense negotiations.

你會知道，我們進行了幾個月的緊張談判。

And all of our listeners on UkraineCast have been asking us lots of questions about this development.

烏克蘭廣播的所有聽眾都向我們提出了許多有關這一事態發展的問題。

And what a lot of you want to know is whether or not this actually brings us any closer to peace.

你們很多人想知道的是，這是否真的能讓我們更接近和平。

Well, we're going to try and answer lots of your questions today.

今天，我們將嘗試回答您的許多問題。

So why don't we get straight into the first one?

那麼，我們為什麼不直接進入第一個問題呢？

My question is, why is Ukraine going ahead with the minerals deal?

我的問題是，烏克蘭為什麼要進行礦產交易？

As the US is siding with Russia, it appears that Ukraine has nothing to lose by refusing to give away its assets.

既然美國站在俄羅斯一邊，烏克蘭拒絕交出資產似乎也不會有什麼損失。

James Waterhouse, why is Ukraine going ahead with this deal?

詹姆斯-沃特豪斯，烏克蘭為什麼要進行這項交易？

Well, Ukraine would argue that it's got everything to gain.

那麼，烏克蘭會說，它可以得到一切好處。

This was an idea first pitched by President Zelensky towards the end of last year in his victory plan.

去年年底，澤倫斯基總統在其勝利計劃中首次提出了這一想法。

He was under pressure from Western allies to articulate his vision for how peace could be achieved.

他面臨著來自西方盟國的壓力，必須闡明他對如何實現和平的願景。

And he said, look, we possess 5% of the world's critical minerals.

他說，聽著，我們擁有世界上 5%的重要礦產。

We need your cash to come and extract it.

我們需要你們的現金來提取它。

It's worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

If you come and invest in us, that will mean investing in our future.

如果你們來投資，就意味著投資我們的未來。

If we could just get in return some concrete security guarantees that you would be there in case Russia invaded in the future, that would be great.

如果我們能換來一些具體的安全保障，保證俄羅斯將來入侵時你們會在那裡，那就太好了。

Donald Trump's ears perked up at that very suggestion, not least because he's waging a trade war with China at the moment.

唐納德-特朗普一聽到這個建議就豎起了耳朵，尤其是因為他目前正在與中國發動貿易戰。

And China has control of the majority of the world's critical minerals, it is thought.

據認為，中國控制著世界上絕大多數的重要礦產。

But in the time since, we've had that Oval Office row where it was going to be signed, then it wasn't.

但在那之後的時間裡，我們在橢圓形辦公室發生了爭吵，本來要簽署的，後來又沒簽。

This deal has evolved into it being far more wide-ranging, including coal, gas, energy projects.

這項交易的範圍已大大擴展，包括煤炭、天然氣和能源項目。

And here we are now, where it seems Ukraine has got itself a deal it's happy with.

現在，烏克蘭似乎達成了自己滿意的協議。

It is a deal that recognises Russia as the invader.

這是一項承認俄羅斯為侵略者的協議。

It paves the way for future military aid.

它為未來的軍事援助鋪平了道路。

And it sets in action a long-term investment by America, which effectively ties it to the country.

這也是美國的一項長期投資，有效地將其與國家聯繫在一起。

And Ukraine will hope it will be enough for America to stand with Ukraine for once against Russia.

烏克蘭希望這足以讓美國站在烏克蘭一邊，與俄羅斯對抗一次。

James Landau, that's what a lot of our listeners really want to know, what James has just alluded to.

詹姆斯-蘭道，這正是很多聽眾真正想知道的，也就是詹姆斯剛才提到的。

I mean, my view is that it is a win, simply because a lot of the slightly more negative stuff which we have been reporting on in recent weeks and months seems to have been taken out of it.

我是說，我認為這是一場勝利，原因很簡單，因為我們最近幾周和幾個月所報道的許多稍顯負面的東西似乎都被剔除了。

Because if you remember some of the texts and versions and leaks and nudges that we've seen about this suggested, for example, that this deal ultimately would be about the United States effectively extorting Ukraine's natural resources to pay off the debt of the US military and financial contribution to Ukraine since February 22.

因為如果你還記得我們所看到的一些文本、版本、洩密和暗示，例如，這項協議最終將是美國有效地勒索烏克蘭的自然資源，以償還美國自2月22日以來對烏克蘭的軍事和財政貢獻的債務。

What we're talking about is any future investment by the United States in terms of military support or financial support that will now in future be in the sort of the US credit, the US capital investment side of this particular deal.

我們所說的是美國未來在軍事支持或財政支持方面的任何投資，這些投資現在將成為這一特定交易中的美國信貸、美國資本投資的一部分。

But we're talking about the future, not the past.

但我們談論的是未來，而不是過去。

So we're not talking about paying off debts.

There was a lot of detail in the past saying that the Americans would have huge control over the board that was going to run this fund.

過去有很多細節表明，美國人將對管理該基金的董事會擁有巨大的控制權。

There were problems with would this deal prevent Ukraine joining the EU?

這項協議會阻止烏克蘭加入歐盟嗎？

So in pure sort of economic financial terms, it seems to be a much better deal.

是以，從純粹的經濟金融角度來看，這似乎是一筆更好的交易。

But obviously, there are all the diplomatic consequences and benefits too that follow from it.

但顯然，這也會帶來各種外交後果和利益。

But Olga, can we just clarify about the money?

但是奧爾加，我們能不能澄清一下錢的問題？

Because President Trump said Biden handed them $350 billion.

因為特朗普總統說拜登交給了他們 3500 億美元。

We've made a deal we can get much more in theory than that.

我們已經達成了協議，理論上我們可以得到比這更多的東西。

Is that accurate what he's saying there, Olga?

So the number $350 billion in aid for Ukraine is interesting.

是以，向烏克蘭提供 3500 億美元援助這個數字很有意思。

We've looked into it previously, and we have found no evidence to back up the claim that the US has given $350 or even $300 billion worth of aid to Ukraine.

我們之前對此進行過調查，沒有發現任何證據可以證明美國向烏克蘭提供了價值 3500 億美元甚至 3000 億美元的援助。

There are different calculations out there.

But the ones that we've been able to find are much, much lower.

但我們所能找到的要低很多很多。

For example, Akil Institute, which is a German-based think tank that tracks US aid for Ukraine, that puts the number at $119 billion between January 22 and December 24.

例如，跟蹤美國對烏克蘭援助情況的德國智庫阿基爾研究所（Akil Institute）認為，1 月 22 日至 12 月 24 日期間，美國對烏克蘭的援助額為 1 190 億美元。

And the US Department of Defense gives a bigger number, but it is still $182 billion, nowhere near $300 billion.

美國國防部給出的數字更大，但仍為 1 820 億美元，遠未達到 3 000 億美元。

And these are funds that are appropriated as part of its response for the invasion.

而這些資金是作為其應對入侵行動的一部分而劃撥的。

But that covers training in Europe and replenishment of US defense stocks, which is much wider than just pure support, military support for Ukraine.

但這涵蓋了在歐洲的培訓和美國國防儲備的補充，這比單純的支持、對烏克蘭的軍事支持要廣泛得多。

And James, can we just clarify, James Waterhouse, we call it a minerals deal, but it is actually much bigger than that.

詹姆斯，我們能不能澄清一下，詹姆斯-沃特豪斯，我們稱之為礦產交易，但實際上遠不止於此。

It's become way much bigger than that now, isn't it?

現在已經比那大得多了，不是嗎？

We're talking about coal, oil, gas, and critical minerals.

我們談論的是煤、石油、天然氣和重要礦產。

We're talking about zinc, copper, lithium, uranium.

我們談論的是鋅、銅、鋰、鈾。

And it's thought that Ukraine can only extract at the moment a fraction of what it possesses.

而據認為，烏克蘭目前只能提取到其所擁有的一小部分。

Just because this agreement is signed, Donald Trump is not suddenly going to be presenting his voters with a cheque saying, look, we're getting the first bit of cash coming in from this scheme.

唐納德-特朗普不會因為簽署了這項協議，就突然向他的選民們開出一張支票，說："看，我們正從這項計劃中獲得第一筆現金。

We've spoken to companies in Kiev and they say, look, it takes decades, a minimum of 20 years to work out where these materials are.

我們和基輔的公司談過，他們說，要知道這些材料在哪裡，需要幾十年，至少 20 年的時間。

And I think Ukraine will be keeping an eye on American military aid in the future, perhaps arriving earlier than in 20 years time.

我認為，烏克蘭今後將密切關注美國的軍事援助，也許會比 20 年後更早。

But clearly, I think this is a political coup for Donald Trump as well.

但很顯然，我認為這也是唐納德-特朗普的一次政治政變。

He's showing that there is a sustainable, as he sees it, business model here in investing in the future of Ukraine.

在他看來，投資烏克蘭的未來是一種可持續的商業模式。

James, I think there was an intake of breath from all of us that follow closely what's happening in Ukraine.

詹姆斯，我想我們所有密切關注烏克蘭局勢的人都倒吸了一口涼氣。

當我們在聖彼得堡的那個角落看到

Peter's Basilica, Donald Trump leaning in to President Zelensky, their eyes were locked.

彼得大教堂，唐納德-特朗普靠在澤倫斯基總統身邊，兩人的目光緊緊地對視著。

But, you know, given the bad blood we've seen between them, it seemed like quite a nice moment, intense moment between them.

但是，你知道，鑑於我們看到的他們之間的不和，這似乎是一個很好的時刻，他們之間的緊張時刻。

Was that moment in the Vatican, do you think, potentially the turning point?

你認為在梵蒂岡的那一刻是轉捩點嗎？

Look, we'll never know until both sides give a very detailed account of precisely who said what to whom there and the moment.

聽著，除非雙方都非常詳細地說明誰在那裡對誰說了什麼以及當時的情況，否則我們永遠不會知道。

But that's, you know, only they know that.

Look, clearly, we do know that Donald Trump is quite responsive to the most recent person he spoke to.

聽著，很明顯，我們知道唐納德-特朗普對最近與他交談過的人反應很好。

We have seen that, that occasionally his words echo recent meetings.

我們已經看到，他的話偶爾會在最近的會議上得到迴應。

And if at that point, President Zelensky managed to sort of get it into President Trump's head that this is something he can get a win here.

如果到了那個時候，澤倫斯基總統設法讓特朗普總統明白，這是他可以在這裡取得勝利的事情。

Because if you think about it, Donald Trump is looking for wins across the entire diplomatic field at the moment, whether it is Gaza, whether it is Iran, whether it's tariffs.

因為仔細想想，唐納德-特朗普目前正在整個外交領域尋求勝利，無論是加沙問題、伊朗問題還是關稅問題。

And on Ukraine, you know, it's his hundredth day, week, you know, he wants something to point to.

而在烏克蘭，你知道，這是他的第一百天，第一百周，你知道，他想要點什麼。

If this deal is signed, as it has been, that gives him something to point to, because he can now say to the American people, look, when we start giving future aid and military support to Ukraine, right, we're going to get some payback.

如果簽署了這項協議，就像現在這樣，他就有了指向，因為他現在可以對美國人民說，聽著，當我們開始向烏克蘭提供未來的援助和軍事支持時，我們會得到一些回報。

It might take many, many years, but he can make that argument in a way that he hasn't been able to before.

這可能需要很多很多年的時間，但他能以一種前所未有的方式提出這個論點。

And I think therefore, maybe that moment in the Vatican was just part of that turning point, where it wasn't just, though, about the mineral deal.

是以我認為，也許在梵蒂岡的那一刻只是轉捩點的一部分，而不僅僅是礦產交易。

They were also talking about just how you put more pressure on Russia to respond more positively in the wider peace talks.

他們還談到了如何向俄羅斯施加更大的壓力，使其在更廣泛的和談中做出更積極的迴應。

And Olga, have we had any official reaction yet from the Kremlin to the deal?

奧爾加，克里姆林宮對這筆交易有什麼官方反應嗎？

We haven't had yet any official reaction from the Kremlin, but we have had a reaction from some senior Russian officials, like former Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, who's quite close to President Putin.

克里姆林宮還沒有做出任何官方反應，但一些俄羅斯高級官員已經做出了反應，比如與普京總統關係密切的前總理德米特里-梅德韋傑夫。

And he used this as an opportunity to, again, criticise Ukraine and present the deal as not being that beneficial to Ukraine, because, and I will quote him here, he suggested that Washington has finally broken Kiev into paying for aid.

他藉此機會再次責備烏克蘭，並認為該協議對烏克蘭並無多大益處，因為，我在此引用他的話，他暗示華盛頓終於讓基輔不得不為援助買單。

And then a similar reaction has been coming from some of the very well-known Russian TV presenters, like Olga Skabeva, who's really well-known in Russia.

一些非常知名的俄羅斯電視節目主持人，如在俄羅斯非常知名的奧爾加-斯卡貝娃，也做出了類似的反應。

And she said, well, a fair amount of natural resources actually are controlled by Russia because it's an occupied territory.

她說，因為這裡是被佔領土，所以相當多的自然資源實際上是由俄羅斯控制的。

So Zelensky kind of sold Trump a cat in the back.

所以，澤倫斯基算是在背後賣了特朗普一隻貓。

字幕列表影片播放

美國礦產協議是烏克蘭的勝利嗎？問題解答 | 英國廣播公司新聞 (Is the US minerals deal a win for Ukraine? Your questions answered | BBC News)

sort

critical

term

scale