WITNESS STAND TODAY, FACING

CROSS-EXAMINATION IN TRUMP'S

CIVIL RAPE TRIAL

>>> AND WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH

THE BREAKING NEWS THAT FORMER

VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE

TESTIFIED BEFORE THE D.C. GRAND

JURY INVESTIGATING DONALD

TRUMP'S ROLE IN THE JANUARY 6th

INSURRECTION

THE PATH TO PENCE'S TESTIMONY

WAS CLEARED YESTERDAY, WHEN A

THREE-JUDGE PANEL REJECTED

TRUMP'S EMERGENCY BID TO PREVENT

PENCE FROM TESTIFYING.

PENCE'S APPEARANCE IS A

TESTAMENT TO THE SPEED AT WHICH

SPECIAL PROSECUTOR JACK SMITH IS

MOVING WITH HIS INVESTIGATION

INTO THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S

INTENT TO OBSTRUCT THE PEACEFUL

TRANSFER OF POWER.

PENCE, WHO WAS CONSIDERING A

2024 PRESIDENTIAL RUN, SPENT

NEARLY EIGHT HOURS IN FRONT OF

THE GRAND JURY, ANSWERING

DETAILED, PROBATIVE QUESTIONS

FROM LAWYERS

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE

FORMER VICE PRESIDENT SHARED HIS

OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES TO

ANYONE CONNECTED WITH LAW

ENFORCEMENT.

PRIOR TO THIS, HE REFUSED A

CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA FROM THE

JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE, SAYING

THAT THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO HIS

TESTIMONY.

TODAY, ROUGHLY 30 WASHINGTON,

D.C. RESIDENTS GOT TO HEAR HIS

UNVARNISHED ACCOUNT OR ONE THAT

WASN'T EDITED FOR A BOOK

IT SHOULD NOT BE LOST ON THE

PUBLIC HOW CLOSE TRUMP

SUPPORTERS CAME TO UPENDING

AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND VIOLENTLY ATTACKING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS,

ATTACKING MEMBERS OF CONGRESS,

INCLUDING THE VICE PRESIDENT

[ CHANTING BRING OUT PENCE ]

[ CHANTING HANG MIKE PENCE ]

>> THANKS TO THE JANUARY 6th

COMMITTEE, WE LEARNED THAT

INSURRECTIONISTS CAME WITHIN 40

FEET OF PENCE AND HIS FAMILY

HIS LIFE WAS VERY MUCH IN

DANGER, BUT DONALD TRUMP DIDN'T

CARE

BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP WAGED AN

UNRELENTING PUBLIC AND PRIVATE

PRESSURE CAMPAIGN ON HIS VICE

PRESIDENT AFTER THE ELECTION

BECAUSE TRUMP WANTED PENCE TO

OVERTURN THE ELECTION, JUST LAST

MARCH, TRUMP BLAMED PENCE FOR

THE VIOLENCE

TELLING A CROWD OF SUPPORTERS

THAT IT WAS PENCE'S FAULT

BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO SEND THE

ELECTION BACK TO THE STATES.

JOINING ME IS OLIVIA TROYE,

FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO VICE

PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, HUGO

LOWELL, POLITICAL INVESTIGATIONS

REPORTER FOR THE GUARDIAN, AND

PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL

PROSECUTOR, GEORGETOWN PROFESSOR

OF LAW, AND MSNBC ANALYST.

WE HAVE NEW REPORTING FROM OUR

OWN JOHN ALLEN MOMENTS AGO ON

MANCHESTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHERE

TRUMP IS RATHER THAN BEING AT

THE E. JEAN CARROLL TRIAL.

HE WALKED INTO THE RED ARROW

DINER.

JOHN ALLEN ASKED FORMER

PRESIDENT TRUMP ABOUT MIKE PENCE

TESTIFYING TO THE GRAND JURY

HERE'S WHAT MIKE ALLEN ASKED

HIM, MR. PRESIDENT, WHAT DO YOU

THINK OF MIKE PENCE TESTIFYING

TODAY, AND TRUMP SAID, OH, I

DON'T KNOW WHAT HE SAID, BUT I

HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN HIM.

YOU COVERED DONALD TRUMP FOR

QUITE SOME TIME.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT AND THE

FACT MIKE PENCE DID TESTIFY?

>> THAT'S NOT THE MESSAGE FROM

BEHIND THE SCENES IN TRUMP

WORLD.

THEY SEE PENCE'S TESTIMONY AS

POTENTIALLY THE MOST DAMAGING

THING THAT COULD BE FOR TRUMP IN

THE JANUARY 6th INVESTIGATION.

LOOK, PENCE WAS THERE ALL OF THE

KEY MOMENTS.

HE WAS THERE ON THE NIGHT BEFORE

THE CAPITOL ATTACK ON JANUARY 5.

HE WAS THERE THE MORNING OF THE

CAPITOL ATTACK ONE-ON-ONE WITH

TRUMP.

THESE ARE CONVERSATIONS THE

JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE COULD

NEVER GET AHOLD OF

ALSO, PENCE WAS DISCUSSING HOW

TO -- WHETHER HE COULD USE

OBJECTIONS TO THROW OUT THE

ELECTION TO THE HOUSE OR SEND IT

BACK TO THE STATES

THESE ARE DISCUSSIONS BEING DONE

AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH

REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS

SO PENCE SAW A LOT

HE WAS THERE IN THE ROOM ALL THE

WAY THROUGH FROM ELECTION NIGHT

TO JANUARY 6th, AND THAT IS WHY

JACK SMITH HAS BEEN SO

INTERESTED IN PURSUING HIS

TESTIMONY.

>> OLIVIA, YOU CAN IMAGINE HE

WOULD HAVE A LOT TO SAY.

HE ACTUALLY ASKED A FORMER VICE

PRESIDENT, CAN I DO THIS

HE DID ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF

OVERTURNING THE ELECTION

I DO WANT TO PLAY WHAT HIS

FORMER AIDE, MARK SHORT, TOLD

THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

THIS WAS PART OF HIS TESTIMONY,

AND THIS IS THE QUESTION OF WHAT

PENCE WAS BEING TOLD AND WHAT HE

WAS SAYING TO DONALD TRUMP

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT

THE VICE PRESIDENT HAD DIRECTLY

CONVEYED HIS POSITION ON THESE

ISSUES TO THE PRESIDENT, NOT

JUST TO THE WORLD THROUGH A DEAR

COLLEAGUE LETTER, BUT DIRECTLY

TO PRESIDENT TRUMP

>> MANY TIMES.

>> AND HE HAD BEEN CONSISTENT IN

CONVEYING HIS POSITION TO THE

PRESIDENT?

>> VERY CONSISTENT

>> CONSISTENT IN SAYING I DON'T

HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO DO THIS.

DONALD TRUMP THEN GOES OUT, DOES

HIS SPEECH, AND THEN HE TWEETS

LATER AND SAYS, MIKE PENCE

DIDN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO

WHAT NEEDED TO BE DONE

HERE WAS THE REACTION OF THE

CROWD.

THIS IS ON JANUARY 6th WHEN

DONALD TRUMP PUTS UP THAT TWEET

SAYING MIKE PENCE DIDN'T HAVE

THE COURAGE.

>> I'M TELLING YOU WHAT I'M

HEARING THAT PENCE, I'M HEARING

THAT PENCE JUST CAVED.

>> IS THAT TRUE?

>> I'M HEARING REPORTS THAT

PENCE CAVED.

I'M TELLING YOU, IF PENCE CAVED,

WE'RE GOING TO DRAG [ BLEEP ]

THROUGH THE STREETS.

YOU [ BLEEP ] POLITICIANS ARE

GOING TO GET [ BLEEP ] THROUGH

THE STREETS.

>> I GUESS THE HOPE IS THERE'S

SUCH A SHOW OF FORCE HERE THAT PENCE WILL DECIDE TO DO THE

PENCE WILL DECIDE TO DO THE RIGHT THING, ACCORDING TO TRUMP.

RIGHT THING, ACCORDING TO TRUMP.

[ CHANTING BRING OUT PENCE ]

>> AND YET, OLIVIA, PENCE

RESISTED TESTIFYING, WAS

SUBPOENAED TO TESTIFY, AND STILL

RESISTED IT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FACT

THAT NOW HE'S TALKING AND HAS TO

TELL THE STORY

>> FIRST, LOOK, I THINK IT'S

GOOD THAT HE'S TESTIFYING.

I THINK IT'S CRITICAL.

HE IS DEFINITELY THE ONE PERSON

WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING THAT

HAPPENED IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

AND I THINK THE JURY NEEDS TO

HEAR IT.

I THINK THIS GIVES HIM SORT OF

THE, I WOULD SAY, THE JUDICIAL

AND POLITICAL TALK COVER TO BE

ABLE TO BE FORTHCOMING, FINALLY.

HE MAY NOT STATE IT PUBLICLY,

ALTHOUGH HE DID WRITE ABOUT IT

IN HIS BOOK, BUT I THINK THIS

GIVES HIM A LITTLE BIT OF LEEWAY

TO SAY LOOK, I WAS COMPELLED

I'M GOING TO FOLLOW THE LAW ON

THIS AND TELL THE TRUTH.

I HOPE HE DID.

I BELIEVE THAT HE DID.

LOOK, I WAS AT THAT JANUARY 6th

HEARING WHEN THEY PLAYED THAT

FOOTAGE OFOW CLOSE THAT UGLY

HORRIFIC HEINOUS MOB CAME TO

HIM, AND YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF

THE DAY, HE WAS MY BOSS FOR TWO

AND A HALF YEARS AND I HAD A

VASERAL REACTION, NOT ONLY THAT

KNRU

KNEW HIM AS A HUMAN BEING AND

HIS FAMILY WAS AT RISK AND

EVERYONE ELSE WAS, BUT THAT WAS

A SITTING VICE PRESIDENT OF THE

UNITED STATES.

THAT'S SOMETHING I KEEP GOING

BACK TO, OUR OWN U.S. PRESIDENT

PUT AT RISK.

THAT SHOULD NEVER BE DISCOUNTED.

AND I -- TO THINK THIS IS THE

FRONT-RUNNER FOR THE GOP, THAT

THAT PERSON COULD COME BACK INTO

POWER, I THINK THAT IS WHY THIS

MIKE PENCE TESTIMONY MATTERS SO

MUCH IN FRONT OF THESE

AMERICANS, A JURY OF AMERICAN

PEERS.

>> YEAH.

AND THE IDEA THAT OTHER ELECTED

OFFICIALS WOULD ALREADY

PRE-EMPTIVELY SUPPORT HIM TO BE

PRESIDENT AGAIN KNOWING WHAT HE

DID.

PAUL, AS A PROSECUTOR, I WONDER

WHAT YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW FROM

PENCE THE MOST

PENCE HAS ADMITTED AT THE

GRIDIRON DINNER, HE SAID HIGH

PUT MY FAMILY AT RISK, HE PUT ME

AT RISK.

HE ADMITTED IT WHEN THERE WERE

NO CAMERAS THERE

HE HAS SAID A FEW THINGS THAT

SHOWS HE DOES UNDERSTAND HE WAS

IN DANGER OF DYING THAT DAY.

>> IN HIS BOOK, HE WROTE THAT HE

AND TRUMP HAD A CLOSE WORKING

RELATIONSHIP FOR FOUR YEARS, BUT

IT DIDN'T END WELL

HOW IS THAT FOR AN

UNDERSTATEMENT

I WANT TO KNOW THE DETAILS ABOUT

WHAT HE MEANT BY THAT.

PROSECUTORS LOVE GRAND JURIES.

I HAVE BEEN IN FRONT OF THAT

D.C. GRAND JURY MANY TIMES

THEY LOVE IT BECAUSE IT'S THEIR

FORUM.

THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY ISN'T

ALLOWED, THE REGULAR RULES OF

EVIDENCE DON'T APPLY AS LONG AS

IT'S RELEVANT, YOU CAN ASK TWO

QUESTIONS.

THE FIRST IS, WHEN YOU TOLD

TRUMP THAT WHAT HE WANTED YOU TO

DO WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, DID HE

SAY I DISAGREE, WHICH WOULD BE A

DEFENSE, MEANING THAT HE LACKED

CRIMINAL INTENT, OR DID HE SAY,

I DON'T CARE, DO IT ANYWAY,

WHICH WOULD IMPLICATE HIM IN A

CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY OF THE

HIGHEST ORDER.

THE OTHER QUESTION IS ABOUT THE

VIOLENCE THAT OLIVIA REFERENCED.

PENCE'S SECRET SERVICE DETAIL ON

JANUARY 6th WERE TEXTING

GOOD-BYE MESSAGES TO THEIR

FAMILY MEMBERS

WHAT DID TRUMP TALK TO PENCE

REGARDING VIOLENCE

HOW MUCH POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE

WAS PENCE AWARE OF

WHAT WERE THE ONE-ON-ONE

CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN PENCE AND