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  • Hello and welcome to India Questions. It is very, very rare, and this programme has been

  • around for a long time, and to get in my opinion two of the really greatest human beings that

  • we have living on this planet today and both together. They have never been together before,

  • although I have had them individually. They have so much in common. Bill Gates and Aamir

  • Khan. What do they have in common? Two of the world's greatest school and college dropouts.

  • So if you are going to drop out then don't worry, this is your future. They are also

  • in a way moving on to phase two of their lives, a new chapter. I can give you a little anecdote.

  • About two years ago or may be a little more than that when Bill Gates was in phase one

  • of his life, and we were talking to whole lot of software people, rather than more interesting

  • people like you, I asked him to give a sound check, say one two three four and he said

  • one billion, two billion, three billion. He was counting notes then and now he is counting

  • people being saved by vaccination, by vaccines, in terms of millions and millions of them.

  • It's a huge terrific change in your life, phase two. And Aamir, in a way you have also

  • moved from, of course you have not given up your earlier acting career, but you have also

  • moved on to social issues with this more path breaking television programme, which had a

  • huge impact and everybody said you are nuts, why are you doing this sort of stuff? Why

  • don't you stick to movies? So what motivated, what caused that change?

  • You know I don't know. I think it's; you know I was at a discussion sometime back and you

  • know one of the questions asked to my team in Satyamev Jayate was, what are the good

  • qualities that a NGO should have? It was a question asked to Satya actually, my director.

  • And he said that one of the good qualities any NGO should have, or any person who wants

  • to be a part of social service should have is that, it's not just the emotion of wanting

  • to do something for somebody else, which is in itself a good emotion, that you want to

  • do for someone, but if you feel that your life is incomplete if you don't. So you are

  • doing it for yourself really, of course you are doing it for someone else. But I think

  • that's what is important. If, and it's something that happens to you if you feel like. It doesn't

  • have to happen to you. But I think in me what grew was this feeling that I need it to for

  • myself, do something. But I felt better about myself when I felt; I feel I am so privileged

  • in so many ways. And I feel that. I really feel that when I see people around me who

  • are not as privileged, I can't just sit by and be comfortable with that. There is a need

  • in me to reach out and perhaps help if I can.

  • And in a way you are lucky to have a position where people will listen

  • And I like it to use it to the best of my abilities. So I guess that's why I have moved

  • into this space where I am. It's for my own emotional or mental, you know, peace of mind

  • and satisfaction.

  • Bill Gates you have also got a little more emotional in phase two. I have seen you almost

  • choke up talking about your Dad, about how your wife motivated you, how your Dad's your

  • hero, and how all this means a little more to your heart then your head. So what motivated

  • you to make your change?

  • Well I think it's very similar. I loved my career in software and being part of building

  • Microsoft, the personal computer and 3D internet. In my 20s and 30s I was fanatical. I saw what

  • innovation could do. But there came a point when I thought that I should turn that work

  • over to other people and think about how innovation, does it naturally benefit everyone? Does it

  • reach down to the person? In fact I got a chance to see all of that as I travelled the

  • world, and a big believer in innovation. I thought okay, we can push it in that direction.

  • So it's allowed me to learn a lot of new things and I wouldn't be able to do it except for

  • the luck, the ability to resources that came from that first career. And actually use a

  • lot that I learnt then in terms of engaging scientists and driving innovation as fast

  • as we can.

  • And how important was your wife in this chapter two of your life?

  • When I first said to my wife that I was considering retiring from my full time work in Microsoft.

  • You know she...

  • She said are you crazy

  • Well she was careful not to jump on it because she wanted it to be my decision you know,

  • that I will never look back and feel like that wasn't, that I really picked the time,

  • that I felt comfortable with that. Because it has been so central to my life I'm certainly

  • enthused about it. During my time in Microsoft, I always had somebody who was my key partner,

  • Paul Allen in founding a new era. Steve Ballmer as the company became big and complicated

  • and now in this era it's truly my wife who's my key confidant and so we get to do this

  • together.

  • And a great motivator. She is a driving force behind a lot of what you do.

  • Absolutely, she is very energetic about these things. She is actually in Malaysia this week

  • at a Women Delivers Conference, talking about the reproductive health and how women get

  • access to those tools. She is equally passionate and also was at Microsoft. So some of the

  • ways we think about the measurement and managing people, getting the best people, that's a

  • common background.

  • Aamir when Bill Gates got launched into this phase two, he talked to and convinced a lot

  • of billionaires around the world, especially Warren Buffet, to donate a lot. To be philanthropic

  • and donate to his organisation and to other organisations and make changes. What about

  • India, we do not see enough of that. We have got a great example of Azim Premji whom you

  • highlighted in your...

  • Yes in our show we did showcase what Mr Premji is doing and I think he is doing really wonderful

  • work and really we should, we should all take a cue from that. And certainly I feel that,

  • I mean I do believe that in India there is a lot of philanthropy, there are huge amounts

  • that we often donate, but it's usually to religious organisations. We donate a lot to

  • religion. Maybe that is a need in us to try and safeguard our passage into heaven and,

  • I don't know; you know because we feel that if we donate a lot to temples, mosques or

  • you know religious institutions and that's where I see most of the big donations going.

  • So it's not that, it's not that we don't donate. We donate huge amounts but they go into religious

  • institutions. Whereas we don't donate to education or to health care. And I personally feel that

  • if you, if you, you know donate to education and health care, the God up there is going

  • to be really happy. So he'll probably be happier. So I mean I think that it's time that people

  • who are well off financially in India and who would like to contribute to nation building,

  • to building this nation into what it can be and to trying to achieve its full potential

  • for the youth for the kids of our country; and for you know, emotional happiness for

  • all of us, that is one area that we can really help in, you know, in donating huge sums to

  • education, healthcare and other such things rather than just religion.

  • You think like you need two hands to clap or it's a bit of a failure, the lack of institutions

  • that they can feel save, the money going to the right place. Like if you donate to the

  • PM's Relief Fund, you just feel God knows what will happen, where will it go, be part

  • of the budget. But if you got something, the Indian equivalent of the Gates Foundation

  • or something, where you know, I spend the money here it's not going to go to salaries,

  • it's going to go where targeted.

  • I don't agree with that entirely Prannoy, because I feel that while yes, we are concerned

  • about you know where are we putting our money, or where are we donating. So that's a concern

  • that all of us should have certainly. But I don't think that you won't find any institution

  • or...

  • If you will look you will find them in India as well now

  • You will. It will take you a week or so to find it out. And you will if you really are

  • interested. I don't think it is that difficult to find out.

  • That's not a sufficient excuse

  • Yes that's not a sufficient excuse as far as I am concerned

  • Bill Gates when you meet India entrepreneurs, billionaires, are you getting any traction

  • with them that they should also donate to the second miracle or miracle of say vaccines?

  • I am sure that philanthropy in India will continue to grow and I think if there is awareness

  • that, although the government can do a lot, that there is something sort of innovative,

  • whether it's good schools showing a way on that. The people like Pratham who I think

  • are doing an amazing job and I am sure there are others like that. In agriculture there

  • is Pradan, getting smart young people, getting out there, pushing innovative techniques.

  • And so yes, philanthropy is going to grow. The only thing I do is as people are interested

  • in philanthropy I share with them how much fun it could be. And talk to them about the

  • fact that you should move from the place that you are, were, successful, usually business,

  • you are going to feel uncomfortable, because you are going to be in an area where the measures

  • are not as clear and you haven't had the 20 or 30 year period of experience where you

  • are really familiar with the territory. You will have to engage with the government to

  • at least to show the way on certain issues. So it's tricky. I think that one of the earliest

  • philanthropists anywhere was the Tata family. They were actually a few years, even before

  • Rockefeller and Carnegie and I learnt a lot from those early foundations because they

  • were pretty brilliant in what they did. I think the more people give, the more it makes

  • other people think that, should I do the same? And I hope that in 10 years from now we can

  • say that this was the golden era of philanthropy in India and the rest of the world

  • You do find some traction when you talk to them

  • Absolutely, the interest in discussion is very strong. In fact there have been in a

  • number of meetings and people are finding their way. That boundary of how you connect

  • and you know show models of government, some capacity building is taking place. The US

  • is in this respect further down the learning curve. There is no lack of places to give.

  • And some agree that the universities have to reach out a little more and have to say

  • that, okay here is programme that you can fund and they should. That's how that happened

  • in US, which is the best...

  • Really organised, beautifully organized, universities of America. But I must say from talking to

  • people that you have spoken to, you, yes you, had made them think and they are kind of on

  • the verge, wondering how much, because when you've got 20 billion, what's a couple of

  • billion or ten billion actually.

  • Well you can promise that you can't take it with you. You know building kermits is out

  • of fashion.

  • When you say, just getting back to the score of the topic today, when you move say, from

  • the miracle of software to the miracle of vaccines, what is the miracle of that? In

  • a nutshell, what do you mean?

  • Well, when you say what's the most tragic thing in the world there will be a lot of

  • things that would come to mind. But I think parents having to bury a child would very

  • high on the list and particularly if there is a tool that exists that could be very inexpensive

  • and it could get to every child, literally will stop millions of these deaths. You know

  • if there was nothing to stop it, okay, you can almost think of that as fate. But when

  • there is a vaccine, that actually rich kids who are not at the risk of the disease much

  • are getting, but the kids who need it the most aren't getting, that struck me as a terrible

  • tragedy. Where has the innovation gone wrong? So now we can see that we are making progress,

  • we're getting more vaccines out to all the kids in the world including the kids in India.

  • Give us like a success story. I know you are like an eternal optimist. Are you also an

  • optimist?

  • Yes I think I am a kind of idealist actually

  • But like, that you feel things will happen. That's what...

  • Yes I believe, I believe, I believe in the good in people and I believe that will emerge

  • and it is emerging

  • That's also a motivating factor when you feel that

  • I feel, I mean I feel that in India right now. You know when I was in college, the two

  • years that I was in college, at that time I felt that there is a different kind of buzz

  • around me, and as time went by I feel that, you know, from the era of oh nothing is going

  • to change, oh this is how it is going to be and this is how it is, I think now there is

  • a change. I think people want to contribute. People are eager to contribute and that's

  • a specific change that I felt. You know even the show like Satayamev Jayate. When we started

  • the show we had no idea on GC if you are talking about, you know, female foeticide, general

  • entertainment channel where people are watching serials and you know, fun stuff, here we are

  • doing a one and half hour program on Sunday morning when nobody watches television, it's

  • called graveyard time. And we are coming with a one and half hour programme on topics like

  • domestic violence and child sexual abuse and female foeticide, you know, who's going to

  • watch this?

  • And it had huge ratings

  • So, but why? That means people want to change. They want to understand; they want to make

  • their lives better. And I feel that, that the fact that it became such a huge success,

  • it became such a movement, indicates to us that India is ready for change and it is changing.

  • And that was really encouraging to someone like me and you know people who want things

  • to move

  • These youngsters are much better than us, right? Not that we are at the same, well we

  • are roughly the same

  • Well yes, I mean I would like to believe that. I think that today the youth is really motivated,

  • they want to bring about a change, and I feel that happening. I feel that happening I mean,

  • when was the last time you saw people coming out on the road and you know protesting about

  • something? I have never seen that in my, when I was in school and college I never saw that.

  • But today we see that

  • Yes, huge numbers

  • There is a lot of energy that is you know...

  • You know in our age why was there a feeling of hopelessness, was that the country going

  • for 50 years at a rate, growing at a rate of 2.5% a year? It's called a Hindu rate of

  • growth and we thought that democracy never works. You've got to have a dictatorship if

  • you want 8%. But India has proved that democracy can get you 8% growth rate and these kids

  • are doing it. When you go to the only large democracy that grows at such a high rate it

  • brings hope. But it does not mean that there is going to be a trickle down, the market

  • does not work.

  • Well some agree the market has been interfered with when you have subsidies, labour, land,

  • you know, not allowing companies to come in. You will be surprised by how all the market

  • works if we give it a chance to work. And that's for when we do the reforms

  • But in certain areas doesn't, like vaccines for example. But give us some, an example

  • of a successful vaccine programme.

  • Well India at this point has 1.7 million children under the age of 5 who die every year. And

  • it is such tragic thing. But if you go back 10 years ago it was over 3 million. So it

  • has come down a lot. So you might say what's going happen going forward? Well we know that

  • if we get the new vaccines out there, if we treat children in the first 30 days we can

  • get it below a million. So a recent development is that Dr Raj Bhan, an Indian scientist,

  • and a group he works with has created a very effective and low cost vaccine for rotavirus,

  • which is about 40% of all diarrheas. And that's in the process of being approved. There is

  • an Indian company that is making it in high volume. So you know when that gets out there

  • that alone would cut well over a hundred thousand of those deaths. And a lot of kids will grow

  • up and their brain will develop in a better way. And so as we improve health it is pretty

  • magical, it's not just the deaths that go down, it's the potential of all those kids

  • is realized, where diarrhea, malnutrition, a variety of these things have held that back

  • now.

  • It is such a simple way. A vaccination can bring your death rate of children down by

  • half. It's just like a no-brainer, which we haven't done for 100 years. It's like crazy.

  • Actually I feel it's how we look at health and how we look at children. So it's our whole

  • approach and whole point of view towards children and towards health care. Now India, you know

  • we spend 1.4 % of our GDP as I discovered during Satyamev Jayate on health care, 1.4%,

  • which I believe is very low. I am not an economist; my understanding is the average is about 8%,

  • you know, in other countries

  • That's shocking 1% as compared to 8%

  • And In the US it's even higher

  • 19%

  • 19% spent on health care. So I am saying that how much do we value our health? We have to

  • ask ourselves that question. How much do we value our children? If we really do value

  • our children, then why are we not moving in that direction? If we do value our health

  • why are we not moving in that direction? And we need to ask those questions to the people

  • whom we are entrusting. When we hold elections we entrust people to look after the country

  • for us and run it for us for five years. And when they make up budgets in which they put,

  • you know, less money for health care and more for defence, then that's a question we need

  • to ask them, is my health not important enough? Why has public health been sidelined so badly?

  • That someone like me, who can afford it, can go to a hospital which is a private hospital,

  • but what happens to someone who cannot afford it? So what happens to that person who, because

  • of the taxes he or she is paying has a right to that public health? You know a lot of us

  • do not understand this. So let me explain this because a lot of people are watching

  • this on television. I am being very simplistic, but bear with me. You know a lot of people

  • feel that yaar, I am not paying taxes because I am not rich enough to pay the taxes, I don't

  • come under income tax so it's not my money that is coming back to me. No, you are, indirect

  • taxes, you are buying salt you are paying tax, you are buying sugar you are paying tax,

  • and everything you purchase has got a tax on it. And if you are poor, then you are probably

  • paying more proportionately from your income in indirect taxes than a person who is rich

  • You are quit a good economist yaar

  • What I am trying to say is that this is your wealth. The money that the country collects

  • belongs to you and me. It has not come from anywhere else. It is my money. It is your

  • money. So we do have a right to ask what are you doing with my money and how are you spending

  • it. I want to know how you are spending it? Why is such a little is being spent on health

  • care? That is my right. I should not be begging for it.

  • They should be doing what you tell them to.

  • The people we appoint are selected by us to do a job you know, so we have the right to

  • ask them why that is not happening

  • Yes, I think there is the budget question of keeping the priority of having the health

  • budget grow. There is also the question of quality of execution and that's often at the

  • state level. And so if you look at India, the variation between the quality of taking

  • the money and actually getting the delivery is quite vast you know. You go almost from

  • the worst in the world to almost the best in the world between the various states in

  • India. So it's very exciting to me that in some of these elections, instead of people

  • asking is that person from my club, they really should be asking hey, what they did about

  • vaccination rates.

  • Absolutely right

  • So when we have that competition in excellence then there is inter state jealousy. If their

  • state can do it, why my state can't do it. I think it is one of the more positive dynamics

  • in the country because you do have some wonderful examples of getting a lot done, even with

  • quite limited budgets that exist.

  • Actually it is the major change that you are talking about. The first 40 years, whether

  • you did anything or not in your constituency, you were voted back into power, 80% people

  • were voted back in power. Now if you deliver you are voted back, if you don't you are thrown

  • out. It's a 50- 50 ratio now. If you deliver on roads, on water, electricity that was 10

  • years ago, but now they want roads, water, electricity, education, health. You deliver

  • on those you are voted back. So the people in our democracy are pushing our politicians

  • at last. It's a mature democracy yes, that's how it is supposed to work.

  • Let's take questions from these youngsters. I do have one from Uruj Fatima. Are you here

  • Uruj Fatima? Yes you are. Why don't you, which college are you from?

  • Uruj Fatima: LSR, Lady Shri Ram. The question that I wanted to ask is that you know there

  • are so many debates and protests held over LPG, petrol hike, etc. However nothing such

  • happens when it comes to the health of young children. Why do you think this is happening,

  • has the government really institutionalised the inequity to the point that the voices

  • of the poor are no longer heard?

  • You know I don't know whether we should blame the government for that. I think we should

  • ask that question to ourselves, that when we are willing to protest about certain things

  • like LPG gas as you mentioned, why we are not protesting about health of our children?

  • So that's a question we really need to ask ourselves. Nothing can stop us from protesting,

  • if you want to, on any issue.

  • I think it's partly invisible because it happens one at a time. You know its 5,000 children

  • every day, but unlike the price of LPG going up all at once, you know that day everybody

  • comes together. This is happening to people in isolated ways and particularly more in

  • the rural areas. So the idea is that you come all together to say hey this should not have

  • happened. A plane crash gets more visibility than the 5000 kids who died that day.

  • Exactly. Any other questions, quickly

  • Student: I am Vaishali from Lady Shri Ram College. My question may sound as an aberration

  • to what we are discussing but it's very inter-related. While millions go hungry every day there are

  • a certain section of the society who suffer from over-nourishment, as we all know. So

  • is it time now that we should also consider the gap that we have. We should also mind

  • the gap. Instead of we all put down a lot of stress on under-nutrition, but what about

  • the over-nutrition, which indeed is very related to under-nutrition?

  • You mean obesity or may be tax on obesity. Also let's take question from the boy next

  • to you.

  • Student: I am from Modern School. My question to the panel is now we have India boasting

  • about its scientific and its medical technology. Whereas many women in India today are forced

  • to, you know, deliver babies in a most unhygienic condition. Well as very bluntly pointed out

  • that India spends only 1.6% of its GDP for health care. So my question precisely is,

  • where is the lacking? And who should take responsibility?

  • Right, both are the tough questions. One to do with inequality and the other is who should

  • take responsibility to change things.

  • You know I personally feel that we all have to take responsibility and I think the crux

  • of the matter is in really what we feel a democracy ought to be. Because we are working

  • in a democracy, so what is our understanding of a democracy? Does it mean that once in

  • 5 years I have to vote and I have done my job, you know, to be the part of the democracy?

  • Is that how I see and I think most of us see it that way unfortunately. In fact most of

  • us, in fact many of us, don't go to vote also. And ones who do, most of us feel that I have

  • voted now, I have done my job. So then you know all of these things start happening after

  • that. So I think in a democracy we have to understand that we have to be more engaged.

  • We have to spend a little more of our time engaged with socially what is happening socially

  • around us in our own areas, in our own small little areas. I live in Pali Hill. I need

  • to know what is happening in Pali Hill. I need to know what are the issues that are

  • facing people living here. Yes I think people living in Pali Hill are perhaps more financially

  • well off because of the area that I am living in, but they will also have their own issues.

  • But that's not necessary true because in Pali Hill you also have slums, because India is

  • such a complicated country that you have a building and next to it you have a slum. So

  • Pali Hill also includes a number of slums you know. So we need to get together and figure

  • out what are the issues that you know, that we can interest on a local level. And every

  • time we can't point to the government and say hey yaar what are you not doing. Of course

  • you have to ask them some very hard questions, I am not saying that we don't need to. But

  • equally we have to feel responsible for all of this ourselves. Because the thing is that

  • we engage more, then only the change will come. I don't know whether you can expect

  • a change from 570 people and say that these 570 have to change our country.

  • Parliament

  • Parliament. You can't expect 600 people to change the country yaar. All of us have to

  • change it, you know each of us have to do our own and in that I think you need to look,

  • re-look at how we see ourselves in a democracy. What is my role? Is it limited to thinking

  • for myself? Or am I to engage around myself and see you know, for example women's toilets.

  • Is there a women's toilet, public loo in my area? If there isn't then I should work toward

  • getting one. Or education for children, healthcare or whatever the issues may be. I need to have

  • one meeting a month at least in my area. I have to start engaging. If we all start engaging

  • then you will realise that there is a lot of strength in us and then the people we select

  • will also start behaving in a different manner, that's what I feel.

  • I must tell you a story about women's sanitation. It was in a time when Rajiv Gandhi, it's quite

  • a long time and Aamir was not even born. He held a meeting with a lot of people and he

  • said each one of you tell me one thing that you would like in this country, something

  • that one thing that they should do. When it came to my turn, well I said I think we need

  • women's toilets all over the country and everybody started laughing and so I felt so stupid and

  • awful after that meeting, my one chance to make a difference. Everybody was laughing

  • That's a big difference

  • But you know I still feel that we still need that today and that was 20 years ago. So sanitation

  • is a huge issue that you are also working on

  • Yes we need innovation now. To start this delivery issue I do think when the government

  • does something right we should give them credit. I do think with NHRM, with JSY payment to

  • encourage people to deliver them facilities. Those numbers have gone up a lot. Now put

  • pressure on making sure those are facilities good. This country has changed from making

  • most out-facilities, where you couldn't get certain interventions, to now the majority

  • in-facilities and that's a pretty successful programme. In terms of obesity it is interesting

  • to look at a country that has done a good job on this. You know the things like vaccination

  • coverage, lots of countries they have better than 95% coverage. So it can be done. So obesity

  • is a tough one because a lot of it is about your own intake, personal discipline and your

  • activity level. So the United States for example has a very high level of this, it's still

  • wrestling with the question of what's the role of the government in restricting certain

  • kinds of snacks and sugary drinks and things like that. For toilets I think we need innovations

  • You are working on toilet technology

  • That's right it's called reinventing the toilet

  • Don't laugh, toilet technology is very important

  • The gold standard of the flush toilet, we bring a lot of in and have to send it back

  • out through processing plants, that's very expensive and uses water which is a scarce

  • resource. So we engaged scientists, put a lot of challenges, money, isn't there a way

  • to do it inexpensively and have it as good or better than that flush toilet. We got some

  • prototypes; we are having a union next year to see the latest toilet so everybody is...

  • Its crucial to have the gold standard toilet, of water flushing in and flushing out cannot

  • reach everybody. It's a...

  • It's a rich world solution and it doesn't scale

  • Yes and I also feel that, I don't know much about this but whatever little I know is that

  • the last thing you ought to do is actually is mix water with your faeces. Am I right

  • about this?

  • No its, it's strange that, that's the best we have done because there are other ways

  • No we do even one step better. We mix water and then put it in the Ganges River you know.

  • That's all the Yamuna; that's our solution, so we definitely need that, we are killing

  • that river, the Ganges it's dying. Yes the young man in front here

  • Student: Sir I am from Modern School, I like to ask...

  • From school, okay, okay

  • Student: Here we are talking about sanitation and malnutrition. You said that we provide

  • vaccination to children when they are born so that they don't die, but what about when

  • they grow up, leave alone education or proper sanitation, what is the guarantee that they

  • will even get food to live and they won't die hungry at night?

  • Aamir you have done a lot on nutrition

  • Actually yes, I mean; but we have been concentrating on fighting against malnutrition for children

  • upto the age of two, that's the area that I have been working in. So that does not answer

  • what he was saying but I will like to tell you...

  • You want to see the PM about this, right?

  • I did. I did went to see the PM. Actually for me this journey began in slightly, so

  • I am going to go off your question, I am sorry but we will come back to it. A group of MPs

  • from different political parties came to meet me one day and I was very curious to know,

  • why. You know they were from different political parties and they came to meet me and they

  • said we feel that malnutrition is a big problem India's facing and we want you to work in

  • that area. So I was quiet impressed, because they were from different parties, and there

  • was obviously nothing, political happening over here. So that's a good example of you

  • know MP's from different political parties wanting to do something in the right direction.

  • And they came and met me. First they wanted me to give some messages and I did that. But

  • they continued to come back to me and they came back to me after two years. In that period

  • they met me a couple of times, they said we want to do some thing much larger and we want

  • there to be a big communication campaign, because people don't know about malnutrition

  • and they don't know what is the first thing to do and what is the basics to do, and we

  • feel that it's important for this message to reach across the country. So they said,

  • can you please come and meet the PM and perhaps request him to create a fund, in which you

  • can create these ad films, to begin and communicate these things to. So I actually went and did

  • that and the PM was kind enough to okay that and then we worked with UNICEF. So UNICEF,

  • the Ministry of Women & Child Development and myself and Prasoon Joshi, so we worked

  • for about an year and a half on this campaign because Prasoon and I had to take in a lot

  • of information about nutrition or malnutrition, to understand the issue, before we can start

  • communicating. So this was the journey in which I learnt a lot about, well a fair bit

  • about this issue, and the campaign is right now on air as we speak. It's a fairly large

  • campaign as it is in almost all of the languages in India; so it's in multiple languages, multiple

  • regions. It talks about four most important things and lots of people are watching this

  • on TV so let me just repeat for t hem quickly. One of them is the moment a woman is pregnant,

  • she has to be fed appropriately for one more life inside her. So the process of nutrition,

  • good nutrition for the baby, starts from the time that the woman is pregnant and that in

  • India unfortunately is not focused upon, because over here the woman is told to eat last. It's

  • considered good manners when the woman is the last person to eat in the house.

  • That in itself is shocking, whether she is pregnant or not...

  • You know so the woman is the last person to eat, so that's absurd. The women has to be

  • the first person to eat, the woman who is pregnant should be the first person to eat

  • if you really care about your child. So it's the in-laws that need to understand this.

  • The husband needs to understand this, that the woman needs to eat first before you can

  • eat, and especially in the houses where economically they are weaker, they need to understand that.

  • And they also need to understand that you can actually, once you are pregnant, you register

  • with the aaganwadi worker and then you get you get more, the government provides you

  • with food for the mother and the child. So you need to know what the government is already

  • doing for you. So let me quickly go to the four points. One is that you should start

  • feeding the women; second is that she needs rest; thirdly the moment the child is born,

  • the first 48 hrs to 72 hrs, the milk of the mother that comes out is called colostrums,

  • and that needs to be fed to the baby. Some places in India they feel that it's not good

  • milk and they through it away. So that helps in building the immunity of the child and

  • that's very important, that's two to three days that milk is important, And for the first

  • six months it should be only breast milk, not even water, because water causes diarrhea

  • and many other diseases, so only breast milk for six months and then, after six months,

  • breast milk along with other food. So breast milk is ideally for one and half two years.

  • So Bill Gates...

  • These are the 4 basic things that we are trying to educate.

  • It's a basic thing that can make the big change...

  • And tell them actually what the government is doing for you. So it's very well to give

  • information of this kind, but I need to have access to food and facilities of this kin.

  • But the aaganwadi workers will provide you with that and they have been funded for that.

  • So you have to go to the aaganwadi workers and say that I am expecting a baby, and I

  • have to register and they will register you and then the process starts for you. So it

  • is available. .

  • So you use your communication skills, media and all that to have a huge impact, and yours

  • is a different channel. You are down there getting out vaccines, getting, convincing

  • people. How do you find the people or the system reacting to what you did? Like you

  • want to go out and change things, you want people to have polio drops and you have been

  • pretty successful. But it's not although we haven't got rid of polio completely, but very

  • few cases, but we need to eliminate those cases as well. So how do you find the system

  • working? Is it easy to work in India?

  • Well polio is a wonderful triumph. The last polio case In India was when it was back in

  • January 2011. And so polio worldwide, last it was less than 300 cases. It's only in 3

  • countries and I spend the majority of my time on polio because we orchestrated a signature

  • campaign and we will take three years to get rid of all the cases, and three years to really

  • get things certified. It's in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria, so India needs to keep vaccinating

  • all the kids until we really finish the fight. But they have done a very good job on that.

  • That was a wonderfully executed programme and the question is some thing I ask myself,

  • before we got into this, which is if you improve health or you just increase population growth

  • and therefore all these issues such as food, education and stability, what ever, the environment

  • is going to be tougher. And the amazing thing that I learnt was that, as you improve health,

  • as more children survive, our families choose voluntarily to have less kids. So the only

  • places where you have very high population growth is where you have terrible heath and

  • as you improve health, the population growth definitely goes down. This, and you should

  • also make available tools for reproductive health, if the women, those who have that,

  • you should educate women because that also helps. So that three factors mean that by

  • investing in health you are actually helping yourself with all these other issues. We also

  • get involved in agriculture because productivity is also important. So our experience in India

  • has been quite positive, the willingness to look around new vaccines. That Pentavalent

  • is being used in part of the country, it's about to go national, it should be a huge

  • milestone. Helping design systems where we can really measure things, get feedback, who

  • is doing things well that's where we have been engaged and there's more to be done.

  • Actually that's an area where Aamir could learn something from you. Everything he does

  • is measured and results are monitored. It's not like you just spend the money and hope

  • something happens. So that is probably where we, tend to be a little bit in India, we do

  • our bit and hope things happen. But you got to be...

  • Scientific words...

  • ... is it not important?

  • Well certainly if you want to draw in people to spend money on these things, they being

  • of a business mindset, that are we doing things in the right way and it turns out you can

  • measure things and most things include, you know we can have satellite maps, cell phones,

  • lot of ways that its getting easier and easier to do good measurements.

  • So you can use technology rather than make it bureaucratic, because that's the old style

  • as you have so many forms to fill in and return.

  • Yes it's is lot of paper.

  • So you do that?

  • Slowly, but truly, that's going to go down.

  • Another question? Young girl in yellow

  • Girl: I have this question, whenever I see the picture, when we take the newspaper in

  • the morning I see that two different world we are living in. One world we have people

  • like Aamir Khan and Mr Bill Gates, where they are trying to make it a better place. But

  • again you have this business world, all these trips going on where you are trying to curb

  • the production of generic drugs, which is very, very important for certain people, for

  • example HIV-AIDS patients. The drugs, which are produced in India, they are very important

  • for patients in certain African countries and of course world over. So there also is

  • this campaign that is going against production, these generic drugs and to extend the IPRs,

  • and I am not saying whether it is right or wrong, but then there is always a dualism

  • in every thing. So how do you think can we tackle this thing? I mean this is very important

  • aspect of health?

  • You know if you allow generic drugs and copying, then you won't get so much of investments

  • and research, but if you go the other extreme, you get drugs that are far too expensive for

  • most of the population to use?

  • I mean yes, it's a tough one. But as far as I understand it, when you patent a drug or

  • when you come out with a new drug, I think that you are allowed to use it without it

  • going generic for a period of ten years, there is particular period in which you can earn,

  • you know as a company you can earn, and then after ten years or a certain period then its

  • allowed to go generic. If I am not mistaken that's, that is what is followed. Which seems

  • to be a fairly good model and because it's important for companies to invest in research

  • and development and for them to earn, I suppose back, what they have invested and at the same

  • time the benefit of that should also come to people who are less privileged, and I think

  • generic medicines in that sense is very important. I mean what we see happening in Rajasthan

  • is quite amazing. The government of Rajasthan has shops, the government has opened shops

  • all across the state, in which they supply generic medicines and they have a department,

  • which purchases medicines from all these various big companies, pharmaceutical companies.

  • And subsidies in...

  • At very low rates and subsidises and sells it. Gives it free actually.

  • What's your answer to that, it's a tough question?

  • Actually the ideal system is fairly clear. Which is that even during the period that

  • they have their patent, that the poorest should just either get it free or subsidised by the

  • government, or pay the marginal cost, so the lowest cost possible. And then people who

  • have higher incomes need to pay higher prices, because after all we want these research activities

  • to invent new medicines, more vaccines, more drugs. And so what's being done, which is

  • so very imperfect, is that the US pays over a, 70% of the profit of marginal medicines

  • comes from the US and then from other rich countries, and some of that. So it's being

  • by country by country basis, where you know a country in Africa gets all, gets this at

  • very low price. But India some what complicates this picture because you cannot really pick

  • the right price from India because it has a middle class, that would probably contribute

  • to the research, and it's got poor people who should get it at very lowest price. So

  • figuring out how you differentiate the private system versus the state system it is tricky.

  • But I feel like we will be able to strike a balance here. After all you want lots of

  • research jobs in India, lots of these great drug and vaccine companies are growing up

  • in the country.

  • And of course in India it's difficult to identify who is rich and who is poor in here, actually

  • doling out medicines. So we have this Aadhar system and Nandan Nilekani is working on this,

  • a system where you can identify and target the poor and target the rich separately. Unless

  • you do that you won't be able to provide subsidised medicines and full priced medicines. So its

  • a complex issue, but the solution is insight.

  • The principle right?

  • The principle yes right. Yes Sir you are not the young student, but you are little older

  • than Aamir, my age.

  • Questioner: I'm Rajiv, I am a pediatrician, a doctor who trained in the US and returned

  • to this country 12 years ago. Sir the whole issue that we are discussing here, whose responsibility

  • is it to protect the children? India produces; we have 27 million babies who are born in

  • this country, 440 million children, so we are creating one Australia every year. The

  • thing is if we say it's the government's responsibility alone you cannot achieve those goals. But

  • if all of us collectively, like you said just now, and the proximate community where the

  • children are born say panchaya's, the villages. So what we have done, a group has adopted

  • a village, name Bago, which is about 70km distance from Delhi and we go there weekly

  • and make our visits and it's just been a wonderful, a shining example, because not only we see

  • survivals improving there, but the children are in school because we are looking beyond

  • survival and the child development.

  • This is some thing that every body should do...

  • Questioner: I think one should reach out to communities. We have to do it...

  • How many of you do some kind of social work, means go out to villages once in a while.

  • Oh that's a good number. That's a 70% and other 30% are the honest ones...

  • What was your question Sir? Did you have a question Sir?

  • Questioner: Sir my question is whose responsibility is to protect the children? I personally,

  • I am trying to find my own answers. My question is whose responsibility is it, because the

  • problem is big? You cannot blame the government. We need to contribute, so whose responsibility

  • it is to take care of these children? Like vaccinations are the most effective, preventive

  • ways, but there is an expense to it and the government sometimes is not able to pay. Then

  • whose supposed to do it, our community, our proximate community?

  • You asked for the question...

  • Well I think when it comes to healthcare, when it comes to payment of vaccines for the

  • poor children who can't afford it, perhaps then that certainly should be paid. I mean

  • we are all paying our taxes in any case either directly or indirectly, and I think that the

  • wealth that is accumulated by the country is not a small amount. Certainly we should

  • be using enough of it to make sure that our children have the right to health from the

  • time they are born, even before they are born and that right can be in the amount that we

  • are decide to spent on them. That can be taken take of.

  • Bill Gates who is responsible for that? How much as an individual do we have the responsibility?

  • Well for immunization to have that system that reaches out and gets every child, that's

  • really, that's primary healthcare and it's a public good, pretty squarely on the government.

  • They can use NGOs or private sector to help them a little bit, but it's up to them, and

  • they should be elected, or not, based on that. But it's said that the parent needs to be

  • educated, whether it's nutrition or breastfeeding you talked about. Often women groups are very

  • powerful to get the word about these best practices, and those are kind of grass root,

  • organised at the village level, without the government having to play much of the role

  • at all.

  • Are any of these problem's intractable? I think I have heard you say that they have

  • got deaths mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and malaria. Diarrhea you seem to be now taking

  • on, at least one form of it, pretty effectively, very soon and malaria has been an on going

  • problem?

  • Yes on a global basis it is a big killer, a little bit less in India, but that's a huge

  • investment and there is a new drug and there is hope that if we can get polio done, that

  • would have credibility and energy and few new tools, then the world will go out and

  • take on malaria eradication as the next big global campaign and...

  • DDT is...

  • DDT kills mosquitoes and you can cut the way of biting down. The other new tool that's

  • very powerful is called the bed net. So you sleep on the bed at night, so all those mosquitoes

  • that bite you at night are not only blocked from doing that, but there is insecticides

  • there, actually killing those mosquitoes. That brought the death rate down from about

  • a million worldwide to under 700,000. But we need a few more tools before we can push

  • down to have the global zero in mind.

  • Are the mosquitoes now immune against DDT?

  • Yes if; it's a strange thing if you use DDT intensely then the mosquitoes will evolve

  • so that it doesn't kill them. Because we haven't used DDT much recently...

  • We forgot about it

  • They have evolved back to DDT sensitive. So for indoor spray DDT is a fantastic. It was

  • a mistake to use it in agriculture because it was causing some problems. But using them

  • against mosquitoes in a targeted way actually works very well.

  • Young lady in front here?

  • Woman: My comment entails a critique of the media and especially TV and Radio because

  • I think these media lack the rigor and nuance that subjects like sanitation and malnutrition

  • require. I also think that the debates around sanitation and malnutrition in media remains

  • sanitised of topics like caste and religion, because what we don't hear is that at an aaganwadi

  • and or a nutrition center, which is dominated by upper caste, a Muslim women and a Dalit

  • women feel discouraged to even take her child for that vaccination, and what we also do

  • not hear is that if we are giving toilet loans to people in Bihar, then we are probably giving

  • the 2nd toilet loan to somebody who already has a toilet, but excluding the Muslim person

  • or Dalit person, who does not own that piece of land that he or she is living on, which

  • is a mandatory requirement in giving out that toilet loan. So I think that we, as concerned

  • participants in this nation building, we would like to see the news media, our actors, our

  • philanthropists engage the middle classes on these issues. So probably the next advertisement

  • that you do or the next proposal that you sign out for the next show that NDTV does,

  • you know these issues along with caste and religion need to be discussed more explicitly,

  • because if there is one medium that can change mindsets powerfully, that is the medium of

  • TV and radio. I am keen for your comments?

  • Aamir?

  • I think the media has a very important role to play in that I completely agree with what

  • she is saying. So I think the media does have an important role to play. And I too would

  • like to see more of that.

  • I hope today is an example of that, at least you spoke...

  • I think what you are saying is right and we need to think more of that. The media is doing

  • a fair amount but I think...

  • But she is saying it doesn't, skirts around it...

  • It does, it does. I think she is right. We don't give it enough value. You know we don't

  • give it the edge that it really has already. I think that's news actually also, because

  • a lot of media feel that we need to sell our newspaper or my channel needs to have TRPs,

  • which I completely understand. But I think these are the news worthy things as well.

  • For something that you mentioned earlier, we do a couple of programmes, for matter we

  • do a show called India Matters where we do these kinds of, I mean documentaries. And

  • everybody said you know so don't do that, no body is going to watch, but actually the

  • viewership is very high. Just like your show, so it's not that people don't want to watch...

  • No, no, people want to watch. And I think that, so I think that what she is saying is

  • completely true I agree that the media needs to do a lot more and I would like to see that

  • happen. I think the caste issue was one that we picked up in SMJ and it is something that

  • affects all of us.

  • Is the media important? Do you, was it over, over estimated, over hyped?

  • Well I think the media has to be given facts so we can measure this appropriately if you

  • knew caste by caste what the infant mortality was, even in different areas, you know looked

  • at different religious backgrounds and where you could see a differential, so I think there

  • will be an outcry. So to a degree we don't measure these things it, easy for them to

  • go unnoticed. I do think; a few years ago I went out and stayed overnight in a village

  • in UP with Rahul Gandhi and he was really pointing out that the women's group if they

  • have done right can be very inclusive. It's really one of the measures that they have;

  • they try to do this well. And they are kind of the voice that gets around the intermediaries,

  • the big man in the village, or the things sort of blocking a lot of these well-intended

  • government programmes of getting out to some body. There is hope in the future that the

  • digital registration and the direct delivery of cash, circumventing some of these blocking

  • factors. We have just, and this is just the beginning, I am seeing that can really make

  • a difference. So measurements, new delivery systems and inclusive groups at the village

  • level are probably the best hope. And media should track the progress on these things.

  • You meet Rahul Gandhi a lot, you met him today also, is there a connect their on these issues?

  • Well he was very keen to say to me that hey, some of these things you think are delivered

  • are not being delivered. And it was kind of refreshing. Usually politicians are telling

  • you have great government programmes, you know how so many say. Be realistic about whether

  • its health or agriculture. You need to think through these very complex dynamics. That

  • was very interesting and you know we are here to help so we are open to people telling us

  • what the problems are. How we can be constructive and I think that is my wife Melinda does it

  • instinctively, but for me it was pretty eye opening in terms of the importance of the

  • women's groups.

  • Actually during SMJ, one of my big learnings, two big learnings for me personally, one of

  • them was, that you know a lot of our problems and issues that we face in India as a society

  • boils down to how we look at women. A lot of our issues boil down to how we look at

  • women. One single thing and there were two things that came through for me, big learnings,

  • one was that if we just start looking at the girl child differently then half our problems

  • will get solved there only. So just look at it, first we don't allow that baby to born.

  • Okay. When we allow them to be born we don't give them equal opportunities, whether it

  • is healthcare, whether it is education. So all the girls who survived all of that, the

  • dice is loaded completely against you, for a woman, in India at least at this point of

  • time. Except in NDTV.

  • I want to make one correction, in NDTV 70% are women there is a dice loaded against men.

  • That's because you are a charming man...

  • It's also true that Indian women are smarter and better than Indian men.

  • Yes, no but I am saying that's not important yaar, who's smarter and who is not, completely

  • unimportant. They have right to life whether they are smarter or not. I should get healthcare,

  • I do not have to be intelligent to get healthcare. So my point is that we have to be fair about

  • these things, so the way we look at women that's something we really need to change.

  • No healthcare for dropouts...

  • And the other thing is wherever we saw people working together as a community, putting aside

  • religion, putting aside caste, really working together as human beings, those are the places

  • where we found that they were prosperous, they were happy, even financially and economically,

  • they were dynamic because of the fact that they were working as a community. So these

  • are the big two learnings that we felt. That when people work as a community they prosper.

  • When the moment you start thinking about yourself then things start going downhill from there.

  • The moment you start doing things you realise are good for everyone, those are the areas

  • that are prospering. Those are the villages that are prospering. The moment I feel; I

  • will tell you for example, I want water, I don't care whether the other villagers get

  • it or not. So I have got a little bit of money perhaps more money than the others, so my

  • bore well will be deeper than the other people. So I can pull out my water from the deeper

  • depth so I get my water. But bore wells are intrinsically harmful to those villages, in

  • any case we shouldn't have bore wells, nobody should have bore wells. We should just work

  • together and lift the water table. If you lift the water table then everyone has water,

  • you don't need bore wells after that. And you don't need electricity to pump water from

  • down also. So I am saying that where people have worked as a community we find them to

  • be prosperous. And where women are given opportunity, you find there things changed dramatically.

  • Just couple of more questions

  • Audience: I am a student and I really would like to know how I can contribute to it. I

  • have 2 hours a day and I can't see anything around me. But I would really like to contribute

  • towards healthcare, vaccination. So what can I do?

  • I think that is a wonderful question and that has come from the right place. A lot of people

  • feel exactly what you feel. Bill Gates?

  • I think we should make it clear through our websites, where people care about these things,

  • where they can get involved. Like advocacy or helping the NGOs, look into the education

  • front, can often take their volunteer time. There are people who mentor a kid from a very

  • poor part of the city, you know like going to the slum and help them about their education.

  • There should be NGOs who can take that digital tool to help you match up and find that opportunity

  • Well actually you know there are two things I want to say to you. One is at this point

  • of time you really should apply your mind as to how you can help. And perhaps you probably

  • are the best answer to it. What are your strengths, what are the things that you can offer. Maybe

  • you are good in maths so you can teach maths to the kids in the slum near your house. So

  • you can choose what's your strength and what you want to share with others. So that's one

  • way of looking at it. This is one of the things in SMJ we realised that we could have done

  • more on and in season 2 we are working on. That is exactly what Bill was saying, is that

  • when we take an issue, we also create partners and try and figure who is doing what in this

  • field, which we are doing in any case, but on our website on which we got a huge amount

  • of hits. If we bring together people who need help and who are wanting to help and we give

  • them a common platform to meet on. So that's what we are going to do in season 2.

  • And that is where Aamir Khan and Bill Gates are going to tap, he will give you the technology

  • and you are going to give him the reach. You don't need technology to get these things

  • together.

  • You know that happened very organically in one of our episodes, which was on alcoholism.

  • So in our episode on alcohol we had a very strong partner, which was AA. AA was our partner.

  • They gave us help and information etc and as you all know at the end of the episode

  • we would always donate a lot of money. People would donate from all over the country, and

  • AA refused to take money because our policy is we don't take money. So they didn't take

  • money. But how we worked together, but how we worked together which is what gave us the

  • idea for the following season is, AA and all its members organised themselves and on the

  • show we gave the information about AA and said that if you have a problem with alcohol,

  • and if you feel you need help, this is the number to call. I think they had thirty thousand

  • members uptill now in the last 65 years of their existence in India. I think in about

  • two week they had three hundred thousand calls.

  • Tremendous

  • Now when you help one alcoholic person you help not only that person but their entire

  • family. So you know what AA is doing is really amazing. And we were the via media who could

  • spread out that information and bring people together, who are wanting and able to help

  • to people who need help. Now that is something that happened organically in the case of that

  • particular episode, but we want to replicate that for our season 2 in all the various topics.

  • I have just one last question, which is totally different from everything we have talked about.

  • Something else you get emotional about, would you like to have seen Steve Jobs here? What

  • could you have said to him in this whole process, chapter 2?

  • Well Steve did brilliantly, worked in the IT industry and it was a pleasure to be partner

  • with him on the Mac. You know compete with him, and he was a brilliant designer and I

  • am sure he would have gone on to do great things in other areas.

  • So had he joined you in this new venture?

  • I don't know. It's a tragedy that he is not here so we can't say what his great sense

  • of aesthetics and justice would have let him do in the next phase of his life.

  • Do you miss him?

  • I miss working with him. I got to see him quite a bit in the last year and he and I

  • got to talk about lot of things. but he was a very unique person.

  • Now you have done a lot of things to spread vaccines, to spread immunization, but Aamir

  • insists that you do one more thing and that you dance for vaccination, Aamir wants you

  • to dance. Lets have some music. You have some music

  • I don't understand one thing, what is it with television channels wanting us to dance?

  • I will tell you what, TRPs.

  • You know if you know how badly I dance, the TRPs will go down.

  • This is another thing women are better at.

  • What's happened to the music?

  • Nahi dance wance mat karao yaar, ek aur question lelo. I think that's important

  • Questioner: I live in that region of Punjab where Hepatitis C is really very widespread

  • and my own Dad has undergone vaccination therapy. So in Hepatitis C there is a risk that the

  • pregnant woman may transmit that to the foetus and secondly if she undergoes vaccine therapy

  • then she is advised not to get pregnant, because the child is at the risk of developing birth

  • defects. So what she can do like, if she undergoes the vaccination therapy she can't get pregnant

  • and if she doesn't, then also she is at the risk of transmitting the disease to the foetus.

  • So can we hope for a vaccine to develop in future, which can help in such situations,

  • because I really see a lot of people, innumerable people in my region suffering from Hepatitis

  • C and I pity them. I really pity them and I hope that such a vaccination could come

  • which can eradicate Hepatitis C?

  • Vaccines, which can prevent people from getting ill at first place in parallel there to people

  • who work on so called anti-viral drugs that would help people actually that have the infection.

  • As yet they are quite complex and quite expensive and so unfortunately it's a while before we

  • have broad therapies. It's been more work but that's a tough. On Hepatitis B we have

  • got the medicine, on Hepatitis C it's right on the medical frontier.

  • Okay, round of applause and whoever wants to dance with Aamir can come and dance.

Hello and welcome to India Questions. It is very, very rare, and this programme has been

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A2 初級

比爾-蓋茨會見阿米爾-汗 (Bill Gates meets Aamir Khan)

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    Shin-Chung Huang 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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