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  • Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

    謄寫員:伊萬娜-科羅姆 審稿人:克瑞斯蒂安-阿帕爾塔Krystian Aparta

  • Simone Ross: Jack, I would love you to tell us what Esri is

    西蒙娜-羅斯,傑克,我希望你能告訴我們Esri是什麼。傑克,我希望你能告訴我們Esri是什麼?

  • and also why GIS is so important.

    以及為什麼GIS如此重要。

  • Jack Dangermond: So it is a company,

    Jack Dangermond:所以它是一家公司。

  • it builds software products that are used by millions of people.

    它打造的軟件產品被數百萬人使用。

  • Kind of like a platform technology,

    有點像平臺技術。

  • but not literally platform.

    但不是字面上的平臺。

  • It builds tools that help people do their work better.

    它打造的工具可以幫助人們更好地完成工作。

  • And that's a very general statement,

    而這是一個非常籠統的說法。

  • but helps them do their work better using geography as a science

    但有助於他們更好地利用地理這門科學開展工作

  • and visualization as a science and technology

    視覺化作為一種科學和技術

  • to help them make better decisions,

    以幫助他們做出更好的決定。

  • or help them be more efficient

    或幫助他們提高工作效率

  • or help them communicate what they're doing better

    或幫助他們更好地傳達他們正在做的事情。

  • It's kind of mapping.

    這是一種映射。

  • I mean, the way normal people would think of it as map-making.

    我的意思是,正常人認為的製圖方式。

  • So this organization has 350,000 organizations that we support.

    所以這個組織有35萬個組織,我們支持。

  • They're our customers, you might say.

    你可以說,他們是我們的客戶。

  • And they range from NGOs, thousands and thousands of them,

    而且他們的範圍從非政府組織,成千上萬的非政府組織。

  • working in conservation or humanitarian affairs,

    從事保護或人道主義事務的工作;

  • to large corporations,

    到大公司。

  • but our majority of users are in the public sector,

    但我們的大部分用戶都在公共部門。

  • in cities and counties,

    在市、縣。

  • in national government agencies,

    在國家政府機構中。

  • and they're basically running the world,

    而他們基本上是在管理世界。

  • that's the way I would say it.

    我就是這麼說的。

  • SR: So right now, we hear a lot about companies using tech

    SR:所以現在,我們聽到很多關於公司利用科技

  • to improve the world,

    以改善世界。

  • but it sounds like that has always been baked into your DNA.

    但聽起來,這一直是 植入你的DNA。

  • JD: I grew up as a young kid in a nursery,

    JD:我小時候是在幼兒園長大的。

  • my parents were servants,

    我的父母是僕人

  • and they started a little nursery to help put me through school,

    他們開始了一個小託兒所來幫助我完成學業。

  • that's the way I saw it.

    我也是這麼看的

  • They were immigrants and they grew plants.

    他們是移民,他們種植植物。

  • They were attracted to landscaping,

    他們被景觀設計所吸引。

  • which I grew up understanding,

    這是我從小就明白的。

  • so I went to design school,

    所以我去了設計學校。

  • first environmental design school

    第一環境設計學院

  • and then landscape architecture and then city planning.

    然後是景觀建築,然後是城市規劃。

  • And in that progression,

    而在這個過程中。

  • I came to understand very clearly the idea of problem-solving,

    我很清楚地明白瞭解決問題的理念。

  • because that's what design really is about,

    因為這才是設計的真諦。

  • you see a problem and you come up, creatively,

    你看到一個問題,你來了,創造性地。

  • with something that solves the problem.

    用能解決這個問題的東西。

  • And at Harvard,

    而在哈佛大學。

  • I started to get engaged with systems and computing.

    我開始接觸系統和計算。

  • And I realized, wow, this was in the '60s,

    我意識到,哇,這是在60年代。

  • you know, when the environmental movement was still just in its birthing,

    你知道,當環保運動 還只是在其誕生。

  • I saw, "Wow, you could actually apply tech to environmental design."

    我看到,"哇,你居然可以把科技應用到環境設計中去。"

  • And so this idealism that often happens when you're in school,

    所以這種理想主義,在學校裡經常發生。

  • you know, "I can really do something!" --

    你知道,"我真的可以做一些事情!"--

  • well, I loved the idea of taking systems theories

    好吧,我喜歡這個想法 採取系統理論

  • and technology

    和技術

  • and applying it to environmental design problem-solving.

    並將其應用於環境設計問題的解決。

  • SR: Do you call Esri a tech company?

    SR:你認為Esri是一家技術公司嗎?

  • JD: We started doing little projects,

    JD:我們開始做一些小項目。

  • you know, locating a new town,

    你知道,定位一個新的城市。

  • locating a store,

    找到一家店。

  • locating a transmission line,

    確定輸電線路的位置;

  • doing environmental studies as a foundation, using tech,

    以環境研究為基礎,利用科技。

  • to be able to make decisions,

    才能做出決定。

  • which were largely design decisions or planning decisions.

    其中主要是設計決定或規劃決定。

  • And we did that for about 10 years.

    我們這樣做了10年左右。

  • Just gradually growing as a professional services company,

    只是逐漸成長為一家專業的服務公司。

  • all the time continuously innovating tools

    不斷創新的工具

  • that would help us do our projects better.

    這將幫助我們更好地完成我們的項目。

  • And this idea of continuous innovation.

    而這種不斷創新的理念。

  • I mean, we invented some of the first digitizing tools for maps,

    我是說,我們發明了一些最早的地圖數字化工具。

  • we invented some of the first computer map-making tools.

    我們發明了一些最早的計算機地圖製作工具。

  • We invented the first spacial analysis tools

    我們發明了第一個空間分析工具。

  • that were commercial in nature.

    屬於商業性質的。

  • And over that decade or so,

    而在這十幾年間。

  • customers began to say,

    客戶開始說。

  • "Gee, I'd like to do that work that you're doing, Jack."

    "天啊,我想做你正在做的工作,傑克。"

  • So we started to think about the idea of a product,

    於是我們開始思考產品的想法。

  • that is, our technology that we applied on project by project

    也就是我們的技術,我們在一個個項目上的應用

  • could actually go into a product that people could use everywhere.

    可以真正進入人們可以到處使用的產品。

  • And the big idea of this product, Simone,

    而這個產品的大意,西蒙尼。

  • was the integration of information using geographic principles.

    是利用地理原則整合資訊。

  • Bringing all the different factors together

    將所有不同的因素結合起來

  • to not only first help us do the projects,

    到不僅先幫我們做項目。

  • but then build these systems that help other people do the projects,

    但卻建立了這些系統,幫助別人做項目。

  • and then later build systems.

    再到後來建立系統。

  • So we went from a project company to a product company

    所以我們從一個項目公司變成了一個產品公司。

  • that built systems that helped organizations do their work better.

    的系統,幫助組織更好地開展工作。

  • SR: What you're doing, I believe,

    SR:你在做什麼,我相信。

  • is sort of the integration of human and built systems

    是一種人類和建築系統的整合。

  • with natural systems.

    與自然系統。

  • And then helping people visualize that

    然後幫助人們將其可視化

  • and figure out then how they can design and build for that

    並想出如何為其設計和建造。

  • in a better, smarter way.

    以更好、更聰明的方式。

  • Is that accurate?

    準確嗎?

  • JD: That's one aspect of it.

    JD:這是它的一個方面。

  • We sometimes call that geodesign.

    我們有時稱之為大地設計。

  • We digitize or abstract geography, the science of our world.

    我們將地理學數字化或抽象化,這是我們世界的科學。

  • You know, Simone, all of the factors that you think about,

    西蒙妮,你知道,你所考慮的所有因素。

  • I think of as layers.

    我認為是層次。

  • Physical features, environmental features,

    物理特徵、環境特徵。

  • demographic features.

    人口特徵;

  • We bring all of those things together in a GIS

    我們把所有這些東西都集中在一個地理信息系統中

  • and then by overlaying those things, we can actually do better designs.

    然後通過這些東西的疊加,我們其實可以做更好的設計。

  • We design with all the factors holistically.

    我們在設計時,會綜合考慮所有因素。

  • That's what actually, as a student, got me excited,

    這其實也是作為一個學生,讓我興奮的原因。

  • because I saw you could bring all of the "ologies,"

    因為我看到你可以把所有的 "邏輯",

  • all the geology, the sociology, the climatology, all together,

    所有的地質學,社會學,氣候學,都在一起。

  • and then make better decisions on that,

    然後就此做出更好的決定。

  • so I think of geography as the mother of all sciences,

    所以我認為地理學是所有科學之母。

  • because it's an integrative technology.

    因為它是一種集成技術。

  • And then digital geography, what we call GIS,

    然後是數字地理學,也就是我們所說的GIS。

  • allows us to be able to use that instrument

    使我們能夠使用該儀器

  • to empower the transformation of how people make decisions.

    以增強人們決策方式的轉變。

  • They can look at the whole, not just one factor,

    他們可以從整體上看,而不僅僅是一個因素。

  • not just making money, not just conserving land,

    不只是賺錢,不只是保護土地。

  • not just this or that.

    不僅僅是這個或那個。

  • It's optimizing many factors at the same time.

    這是在優化很多因素的同時。

  • Yeah, so in the retail sector,

    是啊,所以在零售業。

  • people like Starbucks or Walgreens or Walmart,

    人們喜歡星巴克或沃爾格林或沃爾瑪。

  • all the big retailers,

    所有大型零售商。

  • both here in the US but in the UK, all around the world,

    無論是在美國,還是在英國,在世界各地。

  • use geographic factors to pick the right location.

    利用地理因素來選擇合適的位置。

  • They look at the demographics,

    他們看的是人口統計學。

  • the traffic,

    的交通。

  • and then the large insurance companies and reinsurance companies

    然後是大型保險公司和再保險公司。

  • look at all the different factors that are necessary to understand risk.

    審視理解風險所需的所有不同因素;

  • And they overlay them and they model them

    他們把它們疊加在一起,並建立模型

  • and they visualize high-risk areas or low-risk areas.

    並且他們將高風險區域或低風險區域可視化。

  • In disaster response,

    在救災方面。

  • whether it's fire, or like today, the big earthquake in Turkey,

    無論是火災,還是像今天這樣,土耳其的大地震。

  • there's a whole cycle of work that has to happen

    有一個完整的工作週期必鬚髮生

  • when disasters happen.

    當災難發生時。

  • You know, response, recovery,

    你知道,反應,恢復。

  • all these work activities are underpinned by having good information.

    所有這些工作活動都是以掌握良好的資訊為基礎的。

  • And that information is geographic in nature.

    而這些資訊是地理性質的。

  • So disaster response, public safety,

    所以救災,公共安全。

  • health and looking at issues today that are troubling all of us

    的問題,並審視今天困擾我們所有人的問題。

  • in the areas of social equity.

    在社會公平領域。

  • Where is there disparity?

    哪裡有差距?

  • And when something like the pandemic happens,

    而當類似於大流行病的事情發生時。

  • or unemployment due to the economy happens,

    或因經濟發生失業。

  • we can look geographically and see these factors all coming together.

    我們可以從地理上看,看到這些因素都在一起。

  • So it's like your mind does in many ways.

    所以這就像你的思想在很多方面一樣。

  • I mean, we built a tool that allows you to abstract reality

    我的意思是,我們建立了一個工具,允許你抽象的現實。

  • and see it,

    並看到它。

  • and then look at all the relationships between these factors

    然後看看這些因素之間的所有關係

  • in order to create understanding.

    以便產生理解。

  • So Richard Saul Wurman, the founder of TED

    所以,TED的創始人理查德-索爾-沃曼。

  • often describes us as an understanding organization.

    常常形容我們是一個善解人意的組織。

  • "You're all about understanding, Jack, it's not about technology.

    "你就是要理解,傑克,這與技術無關。

  • Your users use your tools to create better understanding."

    你的用戶使用你的工具來創造更好的理解。"

  • And the way he describes it is understanding precedes action.

    而他的描述是理解先於行動。

  • This is essential to our work.

    這對我們的工作至關重要。

  • SR: And it is a platform that you're building,

    SR:而且這是你搭建的一個平臺。

  • so you're sort of connecting all these different areas of knowledge, right?

    所以你把所有這些不同領域的知識聯繫起來,對嗎?

  • JD: Today, we have what we call Web GIS.

    JD:今天,我們有了所謂的Web GIS。

  • So GIS lives in the web

    所以,GIS生活在網絡中

  • with distributed centers of information that are pulling data out,

    與分佈式的信息中心,正在將數據拉出來。

  • georeferencing,

    地理參考。

  • and using location as a way to do the integration.

    並以位置為方式進行整合。

  • We might call it mashing up different layers

    我們可以稱它為不同層次的混搭

  • from distributed services or distributed sources of information.

    來自分佈式服務或分佈式信息源。

  • And our users are now bringing this knowledge together dynamically

    而我們的用戶現在正在將這些知識動態地彙集起來。

  • in things like smart cities

    在智慧城市等方面

  • or the popular vernacular these days is digital twins.

    或者說現在流行的白話就是數字雙胞胎。

  • So all of that geographic reality

    所以所有的地理現實

  • can now be beamed into organizations,

    現在可以傳送到組織中。

  • whether they be emergency response organizations

    無論它們是應急組織

  • or utility organizations or government.

    或公用事業組織或政府。

  • And any of the different departments,

    而任何一個不同的部門。

  • whether they be law enforcement

    無論是執法者

  • or you know, science, climate change, biodiversity,

    或者你知道,科學,氣候變化,生物多樣性。

  • all of that series of issues that we're facing today

    所有這一系列的問題,我們今天所面臨的

  • can be enriched by not only bringing together the information in real time,

    不僅可以實時彙集資訊,豐富。

  • real-time measurement seen on maps,

    在地圖上看到的實時測量。

  • but also integrating those like using spatial analysis

    但也整合了這些,如使用空間分析。

  • or location analysis to look at the relationships and patterns.

    或位置分析來研究關係和模式。

  • You see, it's not just seeing it,

    你看,這不只是看到了。

  • it's also explicitly understanding

    這也是明明白白

  • the relationships between something like breast cancer and pollution

    諸如乳腺癌和汙染之間的關係

  • that might exist in a particular geography.

    某個地域可能存在的。

  • And saying, "Aha,

    並說:"啊哈。

  • we can quantitatively understand these different factors

    我們可以從數量上理解這些不同的因素

  • and, as a result, respond."

    並是以作出迴應。"

  • SR: So you can do that

    SR:所以你可以這樣做

  • because you are putting all these different layers on

    因為你把所有這些不同的層次上

  • and then you help visualize that.

    然後你幫助可視化。

  • JD: Visualize it, but also spatially relate them

    JD:把它可視化,但也要把它們在空間上聯繫起來。

  • with math and modeling.

    與數學和建模。

  • So it's not just a matter of visually overlaying material,

    所以,這不僅僅是一個視覺上的材料疊加問題。

  • it's a matter of connecting the geometries

    牽一髮而動全身

  • or the factors or the features on these maps to each other,

    或這些地圖上的因素或特徵相互。

  • like your mind does.

    就像你的思想一樣。

  • SR: I have to read this, because I don't want to get it wrong.

    SR:我必須要看這個,因為我不想弄錯。

  • You had said at some event last year, the Geodesign Summit --

    你曾在去年的某個活動上說過,大地設計峰會----。

  • which sounds fascinating to me -- you said,

    這聽起來很吸引我... 你說的。

  • "Transformation is not just about change,

    "轉型不僅僅是改變。

  • it's about leaving behind the past to focus on the future."

    這是關於拋開過去,專注於未來。"

  • So can you talk a little bit about that?

    那麼你能不能談一下這個問題?

  • JD: Historically, we have been at the effect of the environment.

    JD:從歷史上看,我們一直在環境的影響。

  • I mean, this is the history of the world.

    我是說,這就是世界的歷史。

  • The world constrains us in what we can do as human beings

    世界限制了我們做人的能力。

  • and we often adapt and adopt to various environmental situations.

    而我們往往會適應和採用各種環境狀況。

  • This field of geodesign

    這個大地測量領域

  • is about bringing geographic systems and knowledge

    是關於將地理系統和知識

  • into the design process

    融入設計過程

  • so that we can actually be guided by nature

    以使我們能夠真正地被大自然所引導

  • and be more sensitive to it

    並對其更加敏感

  • so that we can be responsive to the greater forces of the environment

    以便我們能夠對更大的環境力量作出反應。

  • and do it in such a way that we can take --

    並以這樣的方式做,我們可以採取 -- --

  • it's thinking of the world as a garden.

    它把世界當成了一個花園。

  • It's like gardening,

    這就像園藝。

  • you must pull out the weeds, you nurture your plants,

    你必須拔掉雜草,你要培育你的植物。

  • you take care of certain things,

    你照顧某些事情。

  • you make sure things are watered.

    你要確保東西被澆灌。

  • And at this point,

    而此時。

  • because of the way we are organized, and the way we think

    因為我們的組織方式,以及我們的思維方式。

  • and the way our information is brought to us,

    以及我們的資訊帶給我們的方式。

  • we don't think as a garden,

    我們不把自己當成一個花園

  • we don't think holistically,

    我們不從整體上考慮。

  • we don't think of the relationships that are in our lives,

    我們不會想到生活中的關係。

  • that are affecting our lives.

    正在影響我們的生活。

  • And as a result, we're careless,

    結果,我們就大意了。

  • we're polluting the environment, we're messing it up.

    我們正在汙染環境,我們正在搞亂它。

  • I mean, on steroids,

    我的意思是,在類固醇。

  • I mean, the world is really in trouble at this particular point.

    我的意思是,這個世界在這個特殊的點上真的很麻煩。

  • I mean we have the crisis of COVID,

    我的意思是,我們有COVID的危機。

  • but my God, COVID is just a little wave.

    但我的天,COVID只是一個小浪。

  • What's coming behind us is the climate change issue,

    我們後面要面對的是氣候變化問題。

  • which is not so easy to fix.

    這不是那麼容易解決的。

  • There's no vaccine that's simply applied.

    沒有簡單應用的疫苗。

  • And then behind that, there's the loss of biodiversity

    而在這背後,還有生物多樣性的喪失。

  • and behind that,

    而在這背後。

  • it's sort of unraveling what has taken billions of years

    這是一種解開花了幾十億年的東西

  • to be able to put together.

    要能把。

  • And so, as human beings,

    所以,作為人類。

  • my sense is we've got to be more responsive to take care of our place.

    我的感覺是,我們已經得到了更多的響應 照顧我們的地方。

  • SR: It's transformation with science and design

    SR:這是用科學和設計來實現轉型

  • as opposed to transformation

    相對於改造

  • brought on or foisted on us by rapid tech change.

    帶來或強加給我們的快速技術變革。

  • It sounds very deliberate.

    聽起來很刻意。

  • JD: It's very deliberate.

    JD:這是很刻意的。

  • Again, when I was a student,

    同樣,當我還是學生的時候。

  • I got the vision or thought

    我有了願景或想法

  • that we could actually do environmental planning

    我們實際上可以做環境規劃

  • and design and development better by thinking holistically.

    和設計與開發更好地進行整體思考。

  • Bringing all the factors together.

    把所有的因素結合起來。

  • And when I launched Esri,

    而當我啟動Esri。