Placeholder Image

字幕列表 影片播放

  • My name is James Gerber,

    我叫 James Gerber

  • I'm the director of the undergraduate international business program

    我是聖地牙哥州立大學的經濟學教授

  • and Professor of Economics at San Diego State University.

    以及大學部國際貿易課程的負責人

  • I want to thank IBERO for the opportunity to be here today

    我想要感謝 IBERO 給我這個機會站在這裡

  • and to speak to a audience on the border about the border.

    演講關於國界的議題

  • Something that has occupied my attention and a lot of my research

    我已經投注了絕大多數的精力和研究

  • and interest for a number of years.

    還有個人興趣在這議題很多年了

  • What I would like to do first is contextualize a bit

    首先,我想先簡短敘述

  • the economy of the border and then

    國界的經濟情況

  • I have three points that I want to make

    然後我想講三件事

  • which I think are not part of the discourse about the border,

    它們不包括於國界的範疇中

  • but should be part of that discourse.

    但我覺得仍應該說

  • So let me first start by contextualizing a little bit

    讓我以這三件事

  • the three points that I want to make.

    來做個開始吧

  • The context I want to draw is these two extremes

    我想講的是有關於 聖地牙哥和提華納(墨西哥北部城市)

  • that we hear about San Diego - Tijuana,

    美國和墨西哥的邊界地區

  • US-Mexico border region.

    的兩種極端

  • One extreme - nationalism, the other extreme - globalism.

    其中一個是“國家主義” 而另一個則是“世界主義“

  • We have people in both those positions,

    極端國家主義者以及極端世界主義者

  • the extreme nationalists and the extreme globalists.

    這兩種都有人贊成

  • The nationalists operate out of a way of thinking

    國家主義者的思想來源

  • that probably goes back to the 1950's or the 1960's.

    可以追溯至 1950 及 60 年代

  • The cold war, the nation state as the unit of analysis.

    冷戰,國家就好像是一堆分析報告組成的

  • There is Mexico, there is the United States,

    那是墨西哥,這是美國

  • two sovereign nations, two separate independent entities.

    兩個主權國家,兩個分開獨立的權力

  • Yes, some interaction,

    即使兩國之間有些互動

  • but these are very different places

    但仍有差異極大的地方

  • with very different reasons for existence,

    非常不同的存在意義

  • with very different ideas, cultures, societies and so forth.

    兩極的觀念、文化、社會和其他

  • Not a lot of overlap in the nationalist view,

    在國家主義者看來並無太多相似的地方

  • not a lot of need for overlap in that view.

    也不需要很多相似點

  • So, I say to those people

    所以,我告訴國家主義者

  • if that's the way you think then come to Fashion Valley

    如果你真的那樣想 就去 Fashion Valley(時尚購物中心)

  • and wander around a bit and listen to the people

    轉一圈,聽聽那邊的人

  • that you hear there.

    都在聊些什麼

  • Or better yet come near where I live

    或者到El Cajon Blv. 我家附近

  • on El Cajon Blv. there's a market, Pancho Villa's farmers market,

    Pancho Villa 的農夫市場

  • where you can get mangos and 15 kinds of chilles.

    在那裡你可以買到芒果 和 15 種不同的櫻桃

  • You will see that this hard fast line between the United States and Mexico

    你將會看到那條介於 美國及墨西哥之間堅固的線

  • isn't quite like you might think that it is.

    可能其實並不像你腦中所想的樣子

  • Now most of you are here in a border audience in some sense

    在某種意義上,現在 你們大部份人坐在一條國界上

  • and probably not many of you think like that is my guess.

    但我猜認同我說法的人並不多

  • I mean I do find that way of thinking quite a bit

    在國界的另一邊,也就是美國

  • on the other side of the border, in the United States.

    我確實找到一點這種想法

  • But the nationalists have a point.

    國家主義者有個論點

  • There is a point to what they are saying

    他們說的話是有論點的

  • and if you think that there isn't then do the following exercise

    如果你覺得他們沒有 就做我等下說的事

  • which is something I like to do.

    這件事我很愛做

  • It tells me a lot about the border,

    去 Fashion Valley 逛 Nordstrom's 或 Macy's(梅西百貨)

  • go to Fashion Valley, go to Nordstrom's or Macy's

    教了我非常多

  • and when you go to buy, whatever it is you are going to buy,

    不管你打算買什麼 當你去買東西時

  • you take out your wallet,

    你拿出你的錢包

  • innocent face, very straight, and you say,

    一臉無辜,光明正大的問

  • "Uh, do you take pesos?"

    “呃....你們收墨西哥披索嗎?”

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • Here is what happens, they look at you and think,

    接下來,他們看著你想

  • "Oh, this person is joking or something."

    “天啊!這人在開玩笑吧!”

  • So you keep a straight face, very innocent and say,

    所以你仍一臉正直,無辜的說

  • "Oh OK, you don't take pesos.

    “噢,你們不收披索

  • I just ask because I was in Tijuana yesterday

    我問是因為昨天在提華納時

  • and they take dollars so I thought you might take pesos."

    他們收美金所以我想搞不好你們也收披索”

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • Then they are a little bit disgusted by that thought.

    然後他們對這個想法感到厭惡

  • Actually, just parenthetically, let me say

    事實上,讓我補充說明一下

  • I think this is a real opportunity for businesses in San Diego.

    我覺得收披索在聖地牙哥 是個好的商業機會

  • I think it would be smart of them to take pesos for a variety of reasons.

    有很多理由可解釋 為何收披索是聰明的

  • They would benefit form that.

    他們將能利用此種方式獲利

  • Ok, so you continue this little dialogue

    好了,所以你繼續這個小對話

  • because it tells you a lot about how some people think about the border.

    因為你能得知某些人對於國界的看法

  • This should be a cautionary tale for globalists,

    這是個能告誡世界主義者的故事

  • for the people who think the world is flat,

    告誡覺得世界是平的

  • for people that think there is really no difference,

    沒有什麼差異性

  • we are one integrated area.

    我們是同一個地方的人

  • You ask this person who's told you that they don't take pesos

    你很堅持的繼續這個話題

  • and are getting a little bit impatient,

    對那個告訴你不收披索

  • but you keep insisting, and you say,

    而且覺得你很煩的人說

  • "I just thought maybe because we are so close to the border

    “我只是想也許因為我們那麼靠近國界

  • that you might take pesos."

    所以你們可能收披索。”

  • And sometimes you get the following response:

    有時你會收到這樣的回答

  • "We are not near the border! Thats way far from here!"

    ”我們離國界不近!國界離我們很遠!“

  • You know, fifteen miles.

    你知道,大概15英哩左右

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • But this tells you about how many people look at San Diego/Tijuana.

    但這故事告訴你

  • It tells you a lot.

    有多少人在注意聖地牙哥/提華納

  • It's a barometer of some part of the population's perspective.

    它是某部份人的典型反應

  • OK, so we've got the nationalists, we've got the globalists,

    所以我們有國家主義者,有世界主義者

  • this is the context of the border.

    這是關於國界的演說

  • We're somewhere in between.

    而我們介於兩者之間

  • We are not 100% separate with soley national concerns,

    我們不是 100% 的只在乎國家意義

  • but nor are we a flat world

    但也不認為世界是平的

  • in which there is no differences

    聖地牙哥和提華納之間沒有差別

  • between San Diego and Tijuana and everyone has the same opportunities

    每個人都有同樣的機會

  • and the same advantages on both sides of the border.

    國界兩邊都有同樣的優點

  • Thats not an accurate description either.

    這兩者都不是精確的敘述

  • Many people live in San Diego and never think about the border,

    很多聖地牙哥人從來沒想過 關於國界的議題

  • and the idea to them is slightly absurd to think about it.

    而且覺得去思考這件事有點荒謬

  • That's just the reality that we face.

    這就是我們面對的現實

  • OK, that's the context.

    好了,這就是我想先講的部份

  • Now, three points that I want to make about this

    現在,我要講那三件

  • that I think are not part of the national discourse

    在美國及墨西哥

  • either in Mexico or the Unites States

    都不是國家議題

  • that should be part of our discourse.

    但應該受重視的事

  • The fist point is geographic, the second point is political

    首先是關於地理的,其次是關於政治

  • and the third point is social.

    再次則有關社會

  • So geography, economic integration between

    在地理現象中,經濟結合

  • the United States and Mexico is a border phenomenon.

    已是美國與墨西哥邊界的風景了

  • It's not a national phenomenon,

    那不是個全國都有的現象

  • it's not happening uniformly, equally spread throughout the United States

    它並沒有發生在全美國

  • uniformly equally spread throughout Mexico.

    也沒有擴展到全墨西哥

  • It's happening at the border.

    它只發生在邊界地帶

  • We know this for a variety of reasons,

    我們知道這現象有很多解釋

  • there are empirical measurements of this, we understand this completely.

    我們都對此事很有經驗,且完全了解

  • If you look for example at how we measure economic integration.

    來看看我們是如何測量經濟結合程度的

  • One of the ways, trade flows.

    其中之一是貿易流動

  • Mexico doesn't keep statistics on the state origin of its exports.

    墨西哥並未計算境內各州的出口額

  • Mexico measures exports,

    它的確有計算出口

  • but you don't really know if they were produced in

    但事實上你並不知道

  • Sonora or Durango or what state.

    它們是在 Sonora 或 Durango

  • Ciudad de Mexico or wherever.

    或 Cludad de Mexico 或隨便甚麼地方製造的

  • But the US has those statistics and what we know is this,

    但美國有計算各州的出口額

  • over 60% of all US exports to Mexico originate in the four border states.

    而美國出口至墨西哥的貨品 有 60% 來自四個邊境州

  • Texas, California primarily, but also Arizona secondarily,

    主要是德州及加州,次要的有亞利桑那

  • and a tiny amount in New Mexico.

    還有一點出自新墨西哥州

  • So our trade, at least as measured by US exports, is coming from border states.

    所以我們之間的貿易,至少 在美國的統計看來是來自邊境州的

  • This is the origin of these goods,

    這是這些商品的來源地

  • not just that these goods pass through those states,

    不只是商品運送途中經過而已

  • but its the origin of where those goods are produced

    而是商品就在這些地方製造

  • and then sent to Mexico. So that's trade.

    然後運往墨西哥,這是貿易狀況

  • Migration.

    接下來是移民

  • We know that 1 in 10 Mexicans, approximately, lives in the United States.

    我們知道 10 個墨西哥人中 大約有一人住在美國

  • They are spread out,

    他們散往美國各處

  • but 2/3 of them live in the four border states.

    但仍有 2/3 住在邊境四州

  • They are still highly concentrated,

    他們的分布依然極為密集

  • your compatriots are highly concentrated

    你們的同胞密集地住在

  • in California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico.

    加州、德州、亞利桑那及新墨西哥州

  • A border phenomenon,

    一個邊界現象

  • movement of people is one of the ways

    人口遷移

  • in which we understand this degree of integration

    是我們瞭解兩國結合程度的

  • between two nations.

    指標之一

  • And that movement is a border phenomenon.

    而遷移是個邊界現象

  • It's mirrored, we don't have good statistics,

    雖然我們沒有精確計算 但它能反映許多事情

  • by what I like to jokingly refer to as "the anti-re-conquista."

    我總是戲稱

  • Which is all the Americans that are buying condos in Baja and elsewhere

    美國人在波約和墨西哥的其他地方置產的行為

  • and this is mirror image of that.

    為“反再殖民運動”

  • The same phenomena is happening

    同樣的現象一再發生

  • there is a concentration of Americans who are not migrants, not tourists,

    有一群國人不是移民、不是遊客

  • they don't really fall into any social science category,

    他們不屬於任何社會科學的範疇

  • but they have property

    但他們有財產

  • and they are allocating an important part of their lives in the border region.

    而且生活在邊境地區

  • Foreign direct investment is something else we can look at

    當我們說到經濟結合時

  • when we talk about economic integration.

    外資直接投資也是一項 我們可以觀察的指標

  • In most US foreign investment into Mexico

    美國投資墨西哥的資金

  • goes to Mexico City.

    絕大多數流向墨西哥市

  • It varies by year, but it's about half sometimes as much as 60% Mexico City,

    雖然每年不同,但通常在 50%~60% 之間

  • most of it goes there.

    所以大部份資金都在墨西哥市

  • So if you take that 40-45% that's left,

    而剩下的 40~45% 資金

  • the vast majority of that goes to the border states.

    則大部份流往邊境地區

  • To the six Mexican sates on the border.

    流向墨西哥的 6 個邊境州

  • So investment, foreign investment is consistent with these other facts

    外國投資與經濟結合

  • about integration.

    差不多一直維持這樣的情況

  • Integration has a place,

    結合是有限定區域的

  • it's not a general national phenomena.

    它不是個全國現象

  • It has a place, the place is the border.

    它限定在一個區域,邊境區域

  • This is a reason why we border residents should be quite concerned about.

    這就是為什麼邊境居民應該關心這件事

  • It effects us far more than it effects the rest of Mexico

    它影響我們遠超於其他墨西哥地區

  • or the rest of the United States.

    或其他美國地區

  • That's the geography.

    這就是地理現象

  • Ok let me talk a little about the politics.

    好了,現在讓我來講點關於政治的東西

  • This integration that we are seeing is not the result of national agreements

    我們所看到的經濟結合

  • signed between the United States and Mexico,

    並不是美國與墨西哥簽署協議的結果

  • it's not due to NAFTA.

    並不是因為北美自由貿易協定

  • It's not due to these pieces of paper

    不是因為

  • which have the signatures of important people

    那張紙上有美國與墨西哥

  • in the United States and Mexico.

    重要人物的簽名

  • It's due to the activities and actions

    造成這現象的原因是

  • of everyday people living in the border region.

    人們住在邊境地區

  • Business people, students, families, citizens

    商人、學生、家庭、國民

  • going about their daily lives

    每天過著正常生活

  • in what seems to them a reasonable normal way,

    在他們看來非常常見的生活

  • that's what's creating this integration.

    是造成結合的原因

  • If you look at the growth of the maquiladora industry, for example

    你可以看看邊境加工出口產業的成長

  • or the growth of trade between the United States and Mexico.

    或是美國與墨西哥貿易上升的情況

  • There is no structural break,

    貿易上並無結構上的停頓

  • that is, there is no change in the trajectory,

    在貿易軌道上無任何改變

  • in the pattern that happens after NAFTA.

    在北美貿易協議簽訂後

  • NAFTA didn't suddenly create this,

    它並沒有突然創造出經濟結合

  • it was going on before that

    經濟結合的情況在那之前就發生了

  • and it's continued to go on after that

    而即使有許多非常困難的障礙

  • in spite of a number of very serious difficulties that stand in our way.

    此情形仍然持續中

  • Jeffery Davidow was the US ambassador to Mexico from the United States

    Jeffery Davidow 在 Zedillo 政權時

  • under the last two years of the Zedillo administration,

    是美國駐墨大使

  • which was the last two years of the Clinton administration.

    同時也是柯林頓政府的最後兩年

  • And the first two years of the Fox administration

    及福克斯政府的頭兩年

  • which was the first two years of the Bush administration.

    和布希政府的頭兩年

  • He wrote a book about his experiences

    他寫了一本集結自己經驗的書

  • the book is a fun read, it's called "The Bear and the Porcupine."

    那本書書名挺有趣的,叫“熊與豪豬”

  • You guys are the porcupine we are the bear.

    墨西哥人是豪豬 美國人是熊

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • I'll leave it to you to unravel that metaphor a little bit.

    我會讓你們自己思考那暗喻的意思

  • But I decided one year I was going to use this book

    有一年,我決定使用這本書

  • in a class I teach.

    當我課程的參考書

  • So I am looking at the chapters and I am trying -- Ok, so what's this chapter about and

    所以我看著目錄

  • I am writing next to each chapter what the dominant theme is.

    然後在每個章節旁寫下大綱

  • There is, I dont know, 15 chapters or something like that

    大概有 15 個章節吧!

  • and I get down and I look at my list and there is two subjects,

    寫完後我看著列表,

  • that is it.

    而裡面只有兩個主題

  • Every chapter was on one of two things: drugs, migration.

    每一章節不是關於毒品就是移民

  • That is what the national governments are thinking about!

    這兩樣是政府主要在思考的事

  • This is the US ambassador to Mexico,

    這就是美國大使在墨西哥時

  • this is where he spent his time,

    把時間都花在這上面了

  • these are the issues that he worked on.

    這些是他在解決的問題

  • This reflects US actions, thoughts,

    反映出美國的動作、思想

  • attitudes towards Mexico.

    及對墨西哥的態度

  • What is important?

    什麼是重要的?

  • What does the national political scene have to deal with?

    國內政治該處理哪件事?

  • What's its focus?

    它應該專注在哪裡?

  • It's not all of this integration that's going on in the border region.

    邊境地區不止發生了結合

  • It's not that.

    不止有那個

  • It's drugs and migration,

    還有毒品跟移民

  • those are the two things.

    這是兩件事

  • So this migration is really the result of all kinds of --

    移民及經濟結合

  • or this integration is the result of all kinds of actions

    是個人以及各類組織

  • by individuals, by organizations.

    各種動作的結果

  • You can name your own favorites,

    你可以舉出很多這類的組織

  • but there is civil society organizations like VIA International

    像VIA International 和 International Community Foundation

  • or the International Community Foundation --

    這類的公民社會組織

  • There are universities that have dual degree programs.

    有很多大學有雙學位計畫

  • The program I direct has dual degree programs

    我帶領的課程也有雙學位計畫

  • with CETYS and UABC in Tijuana.

    與提華納的 CETYS 和 UABC 大學合作

  • So we have students two years here two years there,

    有些學生花兩年在美國 另兩年在墨西哥學習

  • they get degrees from both places.

    然後得到兩邊的學位

  • It's the result of churches which have --

    這是教堂分支的成果

  • a church in San Diego and a church in Tijuana, it's quite common.

    有很多教堂在聖地牙哥 和提華納各有一間

  • It's the result of families which live on both sides of the broder.

    這是很多家庭分住在國界兩邊的成果

  • This is what is driving this integration.

    這是造成結合的動力

  • It's the result of small businesses,

    這是小生意的結果

  • you go into any restaurant in San Diego and you will see what I mean.

    你可以踏進任何一間聖地牙哥的餐廳 就知道我的意思了

  • Poke your head in the kitchen and see who is working there.

    把你的頭探進廚房 然後看看是誰在烹飪

  • This is part of the integration. OK.

    這是結合的一部份

  • Geography, politics, society.

    地理、政治、接下來是社會

  • What is the social theme here?

    我們要講的社會主題是什麼?

  • The social theme is this;

    社會主題是這個

  • that something new is happening at the border region,

    在邊界地區有些新的事情在發生

  • this is something new.

    這是新的事