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  • and some of the big points in that talk or one was affairs are less about sex and more about desire that the fair sometimes Aaron, antidote for death that even happy people cheat.

    和一些大點的談話或一個是事務是少關於性和更多的慾望,公平有時亞倫,解藥的死亡,甚至幸福的人欺騙。

  • And you said in the majority of couples with affairs, actually stay together.

    而你說在大多數有外遇的夫妻中,其實在一起。

  • Yes, all very counterintuitive.

    是的,都很反常。

  • Yes, of course.

    是的,當然。

  • On the one hand, we would we know that infidelity is a leading cause for divorce.

    一方面,我們會知道,不忠是離婚的主要原因。

  • But here is much more infidelity than there are divorces.

    但這裡的不忠比離婚的多得多。

  • So most people stay together at least the first time around.

    所以,大多數人至少第一次就在一起了。

  • That's you see, this is the same logic as mating in captivity, right?

    你看,這和圈養交配的邏輯是一樣的吧?

  • I didn't write the book in mating for people who don't get along and also no longer have any sex together.

    我在交配書中並不是為那些不合群的人寫的,也不再有任何的性愛。

  • It's the same about affairs.

    對事務也是一樣。

  • It would be easy to say, Obviously, people have affairs because they don't like their partner and because they have miserable relationships now, if they do, they actually divorced.

    如果說,很容易就會說,很明顯,人們之所以有外遇,是因為不喜歡自己的伴侶,也是因為現在的感情很慘,如果真的有外遇,其實就是離婚了。

  • These days, they have affairs is because the relationship is good enough for many other things.

    這年頭,他們有外遇就是因為關係夠好,有很多其他的事情。

  • And the easy thing would be to say people have no sex because they don't have good connections.

    而容易的事情就是說人家沒有性,因為人家沒有好的關係。

  • People have affairs because they have bad connections.

    人們之所以有外遇,是因為他們的關係不好。

  • That's true, but I see people up to people coming in and say, I love my partner The last thing I want to hurt his hurt My partner to that I want to do is hurt my partner, and I am having an affair.

    這是真的,但我看到的人到人進來,說,我愛我的伴侶,我的最後一件事,我想傷害他的傷害我的伴侶,我想做的是傷害我的伴侶,我有一個外遇。

  • That's a much more complicated question.

    這是個更復雜的問題。

  • Why would people risked losing everything for a glimmer of What is this link back to your first talk?

    為什麼人們會冒著失去一切的危險,去尋找一絲絲的線索,這與你的第一次演講有什麼聯繫?

  • Yes, this is same.

    是的,這是一樣的。

  • It's the continuation.

    是延續。

  • Mating grapples with the dilemmas of desire on the inside of relationships and rethinking infidelity looks at what happens when desire breaks free anyway goes looking elsewhere.

    交配努力與慾望的困境在關係的內部和重新思考不忠看什麼發生時,慾望打破自由反正去尋找其他地方。

  • So it is a natural continuation.

    所以這是一個自然的延續。

  • But the up the logical thing is to say people do this because they have problems in the relationship.

    但上的邏輯是說人們這樣做是因為他們的關係有問題。

  • It's the symptom model on a fair happens because there's a flawed relationship rather than actually grappling with perch, more complicated imponderables of existential honoree and complexities of love and desire by which actually affairs happen, and sometimes they have nothing to do with the relationship.

    這是一個公平發生的症狀模型,因為有一個有缺陷的關係,而不是真正的努力與鱸魚,更復雜的存在honoree和複雜的愛和慾望的imonderables,實際上事務發生,有時他們有什麼關係。

  • The relationship is actually perfectly fine.

    關係其實是非常好的。

  • That's not what it's about.

    這不是它的目的。

  • And then you enter into the question of transgression afterward.

    然後你再進入到之後的過失問題。

  • Infidelities, existence.

    不忠,存在。

  • It's marriage was invented.

    它的婚姻是被髮明的。

  • So marriage has changed continuously, and infidelity has a tin ashes tenaciousness that Paris could only envy, you know, And that's a line that has become very, very clear that there's a robustness of infidelity.

    所以婚姻不斷變化,不忠有一種錫灰的頑強,巴黎只能羨慕,你知道嗎,這句話已經非常非常清楚,有一種不忠的穩健。

  • No single mother of infidelity of marriage manages to outdo like a race.

    沒有一個婚姻不忠的單親媽媽能像比賽一樣超越。

  • No matter how much marriage tries to adapt to the times, infidelity tops it.

    無論婚姻如何努力適應時代的發展,不忠都是頭等大事。

  • There's always another way.

    總有另一種方式。

  • So now we need to look at the power of transgression.

    所以,現在我們需要看的是越軌的力量。

  • What is it about us from Adam and Eve on that wants to break free out of the very constraints which we have sometimes created, which yesterday we thought where the ones we wanted.

    從亞當和夏娃開始,我們是怎麼想掙脫我們有時創造的約束,昨天我們還以為哪裡是我們想要的約束。

  • I wanted nothing more than this family and these Children and this secure job and this big hole home.

    我最想要的就是這個家和這些孩子,還有這份安穩的工作和這個大洞的家。

  • I have an all of that, and then one day all of that feels so meaningless.

    我有一個所有的,然後有一天,所有的一切都覺得那麼沒有意義。

  • It's been it's been the shackles.

    它一直是... ...它一直是枷鎖。

  • It's been the thing I wanted to be.

    這一直是我想做的事情。

  • I have done always what was expected of me, and now I want to do what I really want to do.

    我一直都在做著對我的期望,現在我想做我真正想做的事情。

  • And that narrative was back to what I talked about when I spoke about what people regret when they die, you know, it's you hear the conversation between the dutiful self and the selfish self, between the thinking about others and the thinking about me and the places where they go together and the places where they clash.

    而這種敘述又回到了我講到人們死後後悔的時候,你知道,就是你聽到了盡責的自己和自私的自己之間的對話,想到別人和想到我之間的對話,以及他們一起去的地方和衝突的地方。

  • And so here is distinct with infidelity, which by definition is an act of entitlement and selfishness.

    所以在這裡與不忠是截然不同的,根據定義,不忠是一種權利和自私的行為。

  • But it is a lot more to do with what I do for me than what I'm actually doing to you.

    但這與我為我做的事情比我實際對你做的事情更有關係。

  • And yet when it is uncovered, what it does to you, it's so shattering and so gutting, so painful, more so that he never waas because socially it breaks everything down.

    然而當它被揭開的時候,它對你的影響,是那麼的震撼,那麼的痛徹心扉,那麼的痛苦,更何況他從來沒有waas,因為在社會上它打破了一切。

  • You know, I was in Morocco last week, Mac ish, and I had a conversation with a young group of young women and young men in their twenties from the village is actually who were working in the city.

    你知道,我上週在摩洛哥,麥克,我和一群二十多歲的年輕女性和年輕男性聊了聊,他們來自村裡,實際上是在城市裡工作。

  • And at one point I said, You know, in America in the West in general, the push today is that if a woman can finally leave, she doesn't just have to stay there and bear her misery should just get out.

    有一次我說,你知道,在美國在西方一般來說,今天的推崇是,如果一個女人終於可以離開,她不只是要留在那裡,忍受她的痛苦應該只是出去。

  • And so one of the girls said to me May madam, if we had to divorce all of the unfaithful men, all of Morocco would be divorced had just thought.

    於是其中一個女孩對我說,梅夫人,如果我們要和所有不忠的男人離婚,整個摩洛哥都會被離婚剛想。

  • Here's the difference.

    這就是區別。

  • You know, I am fascinated by how we one day want certain things and how the next day.

    你知道嗎,我對我們某一天想要的東西和第二天如何著迷。

  • Those are the things that we think are imprisoning us.

    這些都是我們認為禁錮我們的東西。

  • How we can have multiple loves, how we can have different kinds of loves.

    我們怎麼會有多種愛,怎麼會有不同的愛。

  • How we became one person here and then we remember that there are all these other parts of us and they suddenly manifest elsewhere.

    我們如何在這裡成為一個人,然後我們記得我們還有這些其他的部分,他們突然在其他地方表現出來。

  • How sexual revolutions don't happen at home and how the same person who here is completely sexually shut down in this other place is lustful and free and eager and why they can't bring it home.

    性革命怎麼也不會發生在家裡,同樣一個在這裡完全性封閉的人,在這個另一個地方卻欲罷不能,自由而渴望,為什麼不能帶回家。

  • And all these imperfections and some level we would say that infidelity is an imperfect compromise to in perfect lives.

    而所有這些不完美和某種程度上我們會說,不忠是一種不完美的妥協,在完美的生活。

  • Is it almost just something endemic of us?

    這幾乎只是我們特有的東西嗎?

  • As a society?

    作為一個社會?

  • I was up setting up our own rules and then wanting to break them.

    我是建立了我們自己的規則,然後想打破它們。

  • But it has always existed, and we've always had rules, and we've always wanted to break rules.

    但它一直存在,我們一直有規則,我們一直想打破規則。

  • The rules change and, you know, let's be very clear.

    規則的改變,你知道,讓我們非常清楚。

  • Fidelity was an imposition on women in order to know about patrimony and lineage.

    忠貞不渝是對女性的一種強加,目的是為了瞭解父輩和血統。

  • You know now that we can't now that you can't prove it by the Children, you prove it by the exclusiveness.

    你知道現在我們不能現在你不能通過孩子們來證明,你通過排他性來證明。

  • But it's changed from an imposition on women toe a dual gender conviction.

    但它從對女性的強加,變成了雙重性別的信念。

  • Instead of giving more freedom to women, we've taken the freedoms of men away.

    我們沒有給女性更多的自由,而是剝奪了男性的自由。

  • You could put it like, what was the reaction to your talking?

    你可以這樣說,你說話的反應是什麼?

  • What were you trying to get people to take away?

    你想讓人們帶走什麼?

  • The I wanted a conversation that will embrace complexity.

    我想要的對話,將擁抱複雜。

  • As always, I think I deal with subjects that are complicated and that people often want to simplify toe, make them reductionist, IQ and simplistic and are often very polarized.

    一如既往,我認為我處理的題目很複雜,人們往往想把腳趾簡化,使之還原化、智商化、簡單化,往往很兩極化。

  • So the conversation about infidelity becomes a conversation about villain and victim and good and bad and perpetrator and ST and I think it is not the truth.

    所以,關於不忠的對話變成了關於小人與受害者、好與壞、施暴者與ST的對話,我認為這不是真相。

  • And I don't believe that these kinds of conversations that are polarized that are extreme, in which you take the extreme example, and you make that become the norm, and you think that if you don't condemn, it means that you condone, and if you try to understand, it's as if you're justifying these kinds of discourses, the existing politics, they exist in society.

    而我不相信,這種兩極化的對話,是極端的,你拿極端的例子,讓它成為常態,你認為如果你不譴責,就意味著你縱容,如果你試圖去理解,就好像你在為這種話語、現有的政治辯護,它們存在於社會中。

  • They exist in the conversation about infidelity, and they breed narrowness, judgmental nous and discrimination.

    它們存在於關於不忠的對話中,它們滋生了狹隘、判斷力和歧視。

  • And they don't help couples and families and Children, that's for sure.

    而且他們不幫助夫妻、家庭和孩子,這是肯定的。

  • So that's what I see.

    所以,這就是我看到的。

  • I see these all or nothing conversations, and I'm thinking that's an example of an authoritarian discourse of a rigid narrow.

    我看到這些全有或全無的對話,我在想,這就是一個僵化狹隘的專制話語的例子。

  • And I get drawn there and I want to loosen this up because it's it's a lie.

    我被畫在那裡,我想放鬆這一點,因為這是... ...這是一個謊言。

  • It's dishonest.

    這是不誠實的。

  • It's a It's a dishonest way to looking at dishonesty, right?

    這是一個 它是一個不誠實的方式來看待不誠實,對不對?

  • And it doesn't capture the nuances of the human heart, which is really what Infidelities about.

    而且它沒有抓住人心的細微差別,這才是《不忠》的真正意義所在。

  • The question is not.

    這個問題不是。

  • Is it good or is it bad?

    是好是壞?

  • That question is, what do we learn about love, lust and commitment by studying infidelity?

    這個問題是,通過研究不忠,我們能瞭解到什麼是愛、情慾和承諾?

  • It is an amazing window, the same way that sexuality is a window, right?

    這是一扇神奇的窗戶,同樣性愛也是一扇窗戶,對嗎?

  • If you look at sexuality from a societal point of view, you would say that the most progressive aspect of a society in agriculture large themselves around the changes that take place around sexuality covering your head, abortion, nakedness, sexual education, homosexual marriage, all of these us around the sexual window and the most traditional archaic site of a society also large themselves.

    如果你從社會的角度來看性,你會說,一個社會最進步的方面在農業大自己圍繞著性發生的變化捂頭,墮胎,裸體,性教育,同志婚姻,所有這些我們圍繞著性的窗口和一個社會最傳統的古板網站也大自己。

  • If you want to control a population control, the women control what they can wear.

    如果你想控制人口控制,女人控制她們可以穿什麼。

  • How much skin they can show wet comes what kind of interaction they can have with men and who has the education and the information of the Children and the sexuality of Children who owns the sexuality of human and how much Does an adult have a right on the sexuality of Children in abusive way and all of that?

    他們可以顯示多少皮膚溼來什麼樣的互動,他們可以有與男人和誰的教育和資訊的兒童和兒童的性行為誰擁有人類的性行為和多少成人是否有權利對兒童的性行為在虐待的方式和所有的?

  • It is so foundational.

    它是如此的基礎。

  • It's almost amazing how little we talk about it when you see how essentially this to progress and change.

    這幾乎是驚人的,我們如何很少談論它,當你看到如何本質上這到進步和變化。

  • And two tradition and rootedness and infidelity is right in there with that, because infidelity has been one of the ways we controlled sex, if there is a taboo against infidelity, is because somebody understood human nature.

    而二傳統和根性和不忠就在其中,因為不忠一直是我們控制性的方式之一,如果說不忠有禁忌,那是因為有人瞭解人性。

  • We are figure, we are curious and we are greedy.

    我們是身材,我們是好奇,我們是貪婪。

  • We are not generally meant to stay put in one place.

    一般來說,我們並不是要呆在一個地方。

  • There would be no taboo if there was no sizeable threat.

    如果沒有相當大的威脅,就不會有禁忌。

  • And what's more threatening than human nature?

    還有什麼比人性更有威脅的呢?

  • What are some of the other myths about sexuality but saying things that we don't talk about it, don't understand.

    關於性的神話還有哪些,但說的東西我們不說,不懂。

  • To watch the rest of this fascinating interview click on the link below and go to London Real academy dot com.

    要觀看這個迷人的採訪的其餘部分,請點擊下面的鏈接,並去倫敦皇家學院點com。

  • There you consign him with your social media log in and watch the rest of the episode for free, along with all of our episodes on London riel, my webinars and all of our premium content, all located over at London Real academy dot com.

    在那裡,你託付他與您的社交媒體登錄,並觀看其餘的情節免費,以及我們所有的情節在倫敦里爾,我的網絡研討會和我們所有的優質內容,所有位於倫敦真正的學院點com。

  • So click on the link below, You'll be directed there, and you can watch the rest of this fascinating interview and I'll see there.

    所以點擊下面的鏈接,你會被引導到那裡,你可以觀看這個迷人的採訪的其餘部分,我會看到那裡。

and some of the big points in that talk or one was affairs are less about sex and more about desire that the fair sometimes Aaron, antidote for death that even happy people cheat.

和一些大點的談話或一個是事務是少關於性和更多的慾望,公平有時亞倫,解藥的死亡,甚至幸福的人欺騙。

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B1 中級 中文 外遇 對話 關係 婚姻 慾望 社會

HUMAN NATURE IS GREEDY: Belgian Psychotherapist Esther Perel Explains Why People Are Unfaithful

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    林宜悉 發佈於 2020 年 08 月 30 日
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