莫耶斯--深層國家 (Moyers-The Deep State)

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>> WELCOME.
IF YOU'VE READ THE ESPIONAGE
NOVELS OF JOHN LE CARRÉ, YOU
KNOW THAT NO OTHER WRITER TODAY
HAS SO BRILLIANTLY EVOKED THE
SUBTERRANEAN WORKINGS OF
GOVERNMENT, PERHAPS BECAUSE HE
HIMSELF WAS ONCE A BRITISH SPY.
LE CARRÉ HAS A NAME FOR THAT
INVISIBLE LABYRINTH OF POWER.
HE CALLS IT THE "DEEP STATE."
AND NOW AN AMERICAN, YOU'RE
ABOUT TO MEET IN THIS BROADCAST
HAS SEIZED ON THAT CONCEPT TO
DESCRIBE THE FORCES HE SAYS ARE
CONTROLLING OUR GOVERNMENT, NO
MATTER THE PARTY IN POWER.
BUT MIKE LOFGREN'S NO
INTELLIGENCE AGENT, ALTHOUGH HE
HAD A TOP SECRET SECURITY
CLEARANCE.
HE'S A NUMBERS MAN, A
CONGRESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER FOR
28 YEARS WITH THE POWERFUL HOUSE
AND SENATE BUDGET COMMITTEES.
OVER THE YEARS, AS HE CRUNCHED
THOSE NUMBERS, HE REALIZED THEY
DIDN'T ADD UP.
INSTEAD, THEY LED HIM TO
AMERICA'S OWN DEEP STATE, WHERE
ELECTED AND UNELECTED FIGURES
COLLUDE TO PROTECT AND SERVE
POWERFUL VESTED INTERESTS.
MIKE LOFGREN WAS SO DISGUSTED,
HE NOT ONLY LEFT CAPITOL HILL,
HE LEFT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND
WROTE THIS BOOK, "THE PARTY IS
OVER: HOW REPUBLICANS WENT
CRAZY, DEMOCRATS BECAME USELESS
AND THE MIDDLE CLASS GOT
SHAFTED."
NOW, AT OUR REQUEST, AND
EXCLUSIVELY FOR BILLMOYERS.COM,
HE HAS WRITTEN "ANATOMY OF THE
DEEP STATE."
YOU'LL WANT TO READ IT AS SOON
AS WE FINISH THIS CONVERSATION.
MIKE LOFGREN, WELCOME.
>> GOOD TO BE HERE AGAIN, BILL.
>> THIS IS A DIFFICULT SUBJECT
TO TALK ABOUT.
IT WOULD BE EASIER IF IT WERE A
CONSPIRACY YOU WERE DESCRIBING,
BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE, IS IT?
>> NO.
I'M NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.
THIS IS NOT SOME CABAL
THAT WAS HATCHED IN THE DARK OF
NIGHT.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HIDES IN
PLAIN SIGHT.
IT'S SOMETHING WE KNOW ABOUT,
BUT WE CAN'T CONNECT THE DOTS,
OR MOST PEOPLE DON'T CONNECT THE
DOTS.
IT'S KIND OF A NATURAL EVOLUTION
WHEN SO MUCH MONEY AND POLITICAL
CONTROL IS AT STAKE IN THE MOST
POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
THIS HAS EVOLVED OVER TIME.
>> AND YOU CALL IT THE REAL
POWER IN THE COUNTRY.
>> CORRECT.
IT IS A HYBRID OF CORPORATE
AMERICA AND THE NATIONAL
SECURITY STATE.
EVERYONE KNOWS
WHAT THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL
COMPLEX IS, SINCE EISENHOWER
TALKED ABOUT IT IN HIS FAREWELL
ADDRESS.
>> WE MUST GUARD AGAINST THE
ACQUISITION OF UNWARRANTED
INFLUENCE WHETHER SOUGHT OR
UNSOUGHT BY THE
MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
THE POTENTIAL FOR THE DISASTROUS
RISE OF MISPLACED POWER EXISTS
AND WILL PERSIST.
WE MUST NEVER LET THE WEIGHT OF
THIS COMBINATION ENDANGER OUR
LIBERTIES OR DEMOCRATIC
PROCESSES.
>> EVERYONE KNOWS WALL STREET
AND ITS DEPREDATIONS.
EVERYONE KNOWS HOW CORPORATE
AMERICA ACTS.
THEY'RE BOTH ABOUT THE SAME
THING.
THEY'RE BOTH ABOUT MONEY,
SUCKING AS MUCH MONEY OUT OF THE
COUNTRY AS THEY CAN.
AND THEY'RE ABOUT CONTROL,
CORPORATE CONTROL AND POLITICAL
CONTROL.
>> YOU SAID THIS, IN YOUR
JUDGMENT, IS THE BIG STORY OF
OUR TIME.
>> IT IS THE BIG STORY OF OUR
TIME.
IT IS, I WOULD SAY, THE RED
THREAD THAT RUNS THROUGH THE
HISTORY OF THE LAST THREE
DECADES.
IT'S HOW WE HAD DEREGULATION,
FINANCIALIZATION OF THE ECONOMY,
THE WALL STREET BUST, THE
EROSION OF OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES,
AND PERPETUAL WAR.
>> YOU WRITE THAT THE "SECRET
AND UNACCOUNTABLE DEEP STATE
FLOATS FREELY ABOVE THE GRIDLOCK
BETWEEN BOTH ENDS OF
PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE IS THE
PARADOX OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT
IN THE 21st CENTURY."
>> WELL, THAT'S JUST THE THING.
THE COMMON NARRATIVE OF THE LAST
FIVE YEARS, AND ON A SUPERFICIAL
LEVEL IT'S RIGHT, IS THAT
GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN.
IT'S DYSFUNCTIONAL.
IT'S GRIDLOCKED.
WELL, THAT'S TRUE.
AND THAT IS THE VISIBLE
GOVERNMENT, THE CONSTITUTIONAL
GOVERNMENT WE LEARN ABOUT IN
CIVICS 101.
AND IT IS GRIDLOCKED.
BUT SOMEHOW, OBAMA CAN GO INTO
LIBYA.
HE CAN ASSASSINATE U.S.
CITIZENS.
HE CAN COLLECT ALL OUR PHONE
RECORDS WITHOUT A BUY OR A LEAVE
FROM ANYONE.
HE EVEINWNET
CARRYING A PRESIDENT OF A
SOVEREIGN COUNTRY WITHOUT ASKING
ANYONE'S PERMISSION.
AND NO ONE SEEMS TO CONNECT THE
TWO, THE FAILURE OF OUR VISIBLE
CONSTUTIONAL STATE AND THIS
OTHER GOVERNMENT THAT OPERATES
ACCORDING TO NO CONSTITUTIONAL
RULES OR ANY CONSTRAINT BY THE
GOVERNED.
>> YOU GO ON TO SAY, THOUGH,
THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH THAT IS THE HEART OF
THIS, THAT IT'S JUST ONE OF THE
SEVERAL CONSTITUENCIES THAT MAKE
UP WHAT YOU CALL THE DEEP STATE.
>> WELL, IT'S ALL THE NATIONAL
SECURITY FUNCTIONS OF THE
GOVERNMENT.
IT'S THE PENTAGON.
IT'S HOMELAND SECURITY.
IT'S THE STATE DEPARTMENT.
IT'S ALSO TREASURY BECAUSE THEY
HAVE A KIND OF SYMBIOTIC
RELATIONSHIP WITH WALL STREET.
>> FOR ONE THING, THEY CONTROL
THE FLOW OF MONEY.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A FLOW
NOT ONLY OF MONEY, BUT OF
PERSONNEL BETWEEN WALL STREET
AND THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT.
THERE'S OTHER ASPECTS OF
GOVERNMENT.
THERE'S A PORTION OF THE
JUDICIARY -- A SMALL PORTION OF
THE JUDICIARY, THE SO-CALLED
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE
SURVEILLANCE COURTS.
MOST OF CONGRESS DOESN'T EVEN
KNOW HOW THEY OPERATE.
>> TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE
NEXUS, THE CONNECTION, BETWEEN
THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE AND
WALL STREET.
BECAUSE THIS IS A THEME THAT
RUNS THROUGH YOUR ESSAY.
>> DO YOU KNOW THAT ABOUT
30 BLOCKS NORTH OF HERE THERE IS
A RESTAURANT THAT WILL SELL YOU
A TRUFFLE FOR $95,000.
ALSO IN NEW YORK, CHRISTIE'S
SOLD AT AUCTION A PAINTING BY
FRANCIS BACON FOR $142 MILLION.
NOW A PARALLEL SITUATION WITH
THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE.
THE NSA SPENT $1.7 BILLION TO
BUILD A FACILITY IN UTAH THAT
WILL COLLECT ONE YOTTABYTE OF
INFORMATION.
THAT'S AS MUCH INFORMATION AS
HAS EVER BEEN WRITTEN IN THE
HISTORY OF THE WORLD.
IT COSTS $400 BY THE TIME THE
PENTAGON FINISHES PAYING
CONTRACTORS TO HAUL ONE GALLON
OF GASOLINE INTO AFGHANISTAN.
THAT'S A REAL EXTRAVAGANT AMOUNT
OF MONEY.
IN BOTH CASES OF THE NATIONAL
SECURITY STATE AND THE CORPORATE
STATE, THEY ARE SUCKING MONEY
OUT OF THE ECONOMY.
AS OUR INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSES,
WE HAVE A TINKER TOY POWER GRID
THAT GOES OUT EVERY TIME THERE'S
INCLEMENT WEATHER.
TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE
ON FOOD STAM
WE INCARCERATE MORE PEOPLE THAN
CHINA, AN AUTHORITARIAN STATE
WITH FOUR TIMES OUR POPULATION.
DOES ANYONE SEE THE DISPARITY
BETWEEN THIS EXTRAVAGANCE FOR
THE DEEP STATE AND THE PENURY
THAT IS BEING FORCED ON THE REST
OF THE COUNTRY?
THAT ISN'T A NATURAL EVOLUTION.
SOMETHING MADE IT HAPPEN.
WE'RE HAVING A SITUATION WHERE
THE DEEP STATE IS ESSENTIALLY
OUT OF CONTROL, IT'S
UNCONSTRAINED.
SINCE 9/11 WE HAVE BUILT THE
EQUIVALENT OF THREE PENTAGONS
AROUND THE DC METROPOLITAN AREA,
HOLDING DEFENSE CONTRACTORS,
INTELLIGENCE CONTRACTORS, AND
GOVERNMENT CIVILIANS INVOLVED IN
THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
THERE ARE OVER
400,000 CONTRACTORS, PRIVATE
CITIZENS, WHO HAVE TOP-SECRET
SECURITY CLEARANCES.
>> AND THEY ARE HEART AND SOUL
OF THE DEEP STATE, AS YOU
DESCRIBE IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> THEY'RE BEING PRIVATIZED.
WHICH MEANS THE POWER SHIFTS
FROM ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIALS TO
UNACCOUNTABLE CONTRACTORS.
>> ABOUT 70 PERCENT OF THE
INTELLIGENCE BUDGET GOES TO
CONTRACTS.
>> HOW NEW IS THIS?
I MEAN, BACK IN 2010, THE
"WASHINGTON POST" PUBLISHED A
STUNNING INVESTIGATION OF WHAT
THE EDITORS CALLED "TOP-SECRET
AMERICA."
I MEAN, WE HAVE KNOWN
ABOUT THIS, HAVE WE NOT?
>> YES, WE KNOW ABOUT THIS, BUT
THE INTELLIGENCE FUNCTIONS OF
THE GOVERNMENT ARE TOO IMPORTANT
TO OUTSOURCE IN THE MANNER WE
HAVE.
IT'S SOMETHING WHERE ABSOLUTE
DISCRETION IS NEEDED AND
ABSOLUTE TRUST THAT THEY ARE NOT
VIOLATING CIVIL LIBERTIES.
AND TO PUT THIS KIND OF A
BURDEN, IF YOU WILL, ON
PRIVATE-CONTRACT EMPLOYEES IS, I
THINK, BECOME A GREAT
DISSERVICE.
>> YOU SAY THAT YOU CAME TO
QUESTION THIS.
IT TOOK YOU A WHILE.
IT WAS A GRADUAL ENLIGHTENMENT
THAT TOOK PLACE.
YOU WERE DEALING WITH BIG
NUMBERS AND PARTICULAR DETAILS
IN THE BUDGETS THAT ALL OF THESE
AGENCIES WERE SENDING TO YOU
WHEN YOU WERE ON CAPITOL HILL,
RIGHT?
YOU WERE SEEING THE NUMBERS?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> AND YOU --
WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THE
NUMBERS?
>> AT THE END OF 2001 IS -- WE
APPROPRIATED A LOT OF MONEY AND
IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE GOING TO
AFGHANISTAN, THE APPROXIMATE
SOURCE OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS.
IT SEEMED TO BE GOING TO THE
IULEG.
AND I SAID, "WHAT'S GOING ON
HERE?
SADDAM HUSSEIN DIDN'T BRING DOWN
THE TWIN TOWERS."
SO, THE LITTLE LIGHT WENT ON.
AND I BEGAN TO SORT OF
DISENCHANT MYSELF FROM THE
NORMAL GROUP THINK THAT TENDS TO
TAKE OVER IN ANY ORGANIZATION.
>> GROUP THINK?
AT SOME POINT IN YOUR ESSAY, YOU
TALK ABOUT HOW GROUPTHINK DRIVES
THE DEEP STATE.
>> IT ABSOLUTELY DOES, JUST AS
IT TENDS TO DRIVE ANY
BUREAUCRATIC ORGANIZATION.
>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY
GROUPTHINK?
>> WELL, THE PSYCHOLOGIST IRVING
JANIS CALLED IT GROUPTHINK.
IT'S A KIND OF ASSIMILATION OF
THE VIEWS OF YOUR SUPERIORS AND
YOUR PEERS.
IT'S BECOMING A YES MAN.
AND IN MANY RESPECTS, IT'S AN
UNCONSCIOUS THING.
>> YEAH, REMEMBER WHAT UPTON
SINCLAIR ONCE SAID "IT'S
DIFFICULT TO GET A MAN TO
UNDERSTAND SOMETHING WHEN HIS
SALARY DEPENDS ON HIM NOT
UNDERSTANDING IT."
>> THAT IS CERTAINLY PART OF IT.
>> YOU DESCRIBE WASHINGTON AS
CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY THE
HEADQUARTERS OF THE DEEP STATE.
BUT TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE
OTHERS WHO ARE IN THE GAME.
>> WALL STREET IS, PERHAPS, THE
ULTIMATE BACKSTOP TO THE WHOLE
OPERATION.
BECAUSE THEY GENERATE SO MUCH
MONEY THAT THEY CAN PRIDE
SECOND CAREERS FOR A LOT OF THE
GOVERNMENT OPERATIVES.
THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE MORE MONEY
THAN THEY EVER DREAMED THEY
WOULD ON WALL STREET.
AND I THINK A GOOD EXAMPLE OF
THAT IS THE MOST CELEBRATED
SOLDIER OF THE LAST DECADE,
DAVID PETRAEUS.
WHAT DID HE DO WHEN HE RETIRED?
HE WENT TO KOHLBERG KRAVIS
ROBERTS, A WALL STREET BUYOUT
FIRM WITH $90 BILLION IN ASSETS
UNDER MANAGEMENT.
>> YOU DESCRIBE HIM AS A KIND OF
AVATAR OF THE DEEP STATE.
>> HE IS, IN A WAY.
BECAUSE HE NOW REPRESENTS BOTH
ENDS OF IT.
WE SEE NOW OUR PRESENT-DAY
CINCINNATUS DID NOT PICK UP THE
PLOW WHEN HE LAY DOWN THE SWORD.
>> CINCINNATUS WAS THE ROMAN WHO
LEFT HIS FARM TO BECOME A
GENERAL IN THE WAR.
WHEN THE WAR WAS OVER, HE WENT
BACK TO BE A FARMER.
THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN TODAY.
>> NO, IT DOESN'T.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF GENERALS
SEEM TO END UP ON THE BOARDS OF
DEFENSE CONTRACTORS.
>> TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT
YOU CALL THIS STRANGE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SILICON
VALLEY AND THE GOVERNMENT, AND
HOW IT FITS INTO THE DEEP STATE.
>> WELL, THE NATIONAL SECURITY
AGENCY COULD NOT DO WHAT IT
DOES, THE CIA COULD DA
IT DOES, WITHOUT SILICON VALLEY.
NOW, SILICON VALLEY, UNLIKE THE
DEFENSE CONTRACTORS, MOSTLY
SELLS TO PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS AND
TO COMPANIES.
IT'S NOT A BIG GOVERNMENT
VENDOR.
HOWEVER, ITS SERVICES ARE
NECESSARY.
AND DE FACTO, THEY HAVE BECOME A
PART OF THE NSA'S OPERATIONS.
I'M SURE THE CEO'S OF SOME OF
THESE COMPANIES TRY TO OBSCURE
THE FACT THAT THIS HAS MOSTLY
BEEN VOLUNTARY FOR MANY YEARS.
>> YOU MEAN THE SURVEILLANCE?
>> THE SURVEILLANCE.
>> THE GATHERING OF INFORMATION
OF UNKNOWING CITIZENS.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES,
THOUGH.
>> PRECISELY.
THEY'VE DONE IT
THEMSELVES AND THEY'VE ASSISTED
THE NSA THROUGH A FISA COURT
ORDER.
>> FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE --
>> FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE
SURVEILLANCE ACT.
SO, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR
QUITE A WHILE.
YET NOW, LIKE INSPECTOR RENAULT,
THEY ARE "SHOCKED, SHOCKED" TO
FIND OUT.
BUT I THINK THEIR MAIN SHOCK IS
THAT THEY'RE NOW STARTING TO
LOSE MARKET SHARE IN FOREIGN
COUNTRIES.
>> THESE MOGULS, AS YOU CALL
THEM, PASS THEMSELVES OFF AS
LIBERTARIANS.
>> OH, THEY DO.
THEY MAKE A BIG PRETENSE ABOUT
BEING LIBERTARIANS AND BELIEVING
IN THE RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM AND
SO FORTH.
BUT THEY'VBEENVERYIT A
INTRUSIVE AS THE NSA HAS BEEN,
IN TERMS OF COLLECTING YOUR DATA
FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES, RATHER
THAN SO-CALLED NATIONAL SECURITY
PURPOSES.
BUT THEY'RE IN IT JUST AS
HEAVILY AS THE NSA IS.
AND THEY SOMEHOW MANAGE TO GET
THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY LAWS
RIGGED SO THAT YOU ARE
THEORETICALLY SUBJECT TO A FINE
OF UP TO $500,000 FOR JAIL
BREAKING YOUR PHONE.
>> WHICH MEANS?
>> WHICH MEANS IF YOU DON'T LIKE
THE CARRIER ON YOUR PHONE THAT
THE MANUFACTURER DICTATES YOU
SHALL HAVE AND YOU CHANGE IT
WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION, YOU DON'T
HAVE THE RIGHT TO SOMETHING YOU
BOUGHT.
>> COULD THIS SYMBIOTIC AND
ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
SILICON VALLEY AND THE
GOVERNMENT REFLECTING THE DEEP
STATE, EXPLAIN THE INDULGENCE
WASHINGTON HAS SHOWN SILICON
VALLEY ON MATTERS OF
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
PEOPLE NO LONGER NECESSARILY OWN
THEIR PROPERTY THAT THEY BUY IF
THEY'RE BUYING IT FROM SILICON
VALLEY.
THEY SIMPLY HAVE A KIND OF LEASE
ON IT.
>> IF, AS YOU WRITE, THE
IDEOLOGY OF THE DEEP STATE IS
NOT DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, NOT
LEFTRI WHAT IS IT?
>> IT'S AN IDEOLOGY.
I JUST DON'T THINK WE'VE NAMED
IT.
IT'S A KIND OF CORPORATISM.
NOW, THE ACTORS IN THIS DRAMA
TEND TO STEER CLEAR OF SOCIAL
ISSUES.
THEY PRETEND TO BE MERRILY
NEUTRAL SERVANTS OF THE STATE,
GIVING THE BEST ADVICE POSSIBLE
ON NATIONAL SECURITY OR
FINANCIAL MATTERS.
BUT THEY HOLD A VERY DEEP
IDEOLOGY OF THE WASHINGTON
CONSENSUS AT HOME, WHICH IS
DEREGULATION, OUTSOURCING,
DE-INDUSTRIALIZATION AND
FINANCIALIZATION.
AND THEY BELIEVE IN AMERICAN
EXCEPTIONALISM ABROAD, WHICH IS
BOOTS ON THE GROUND EVERYWHERE,
IT'S OUR RIGHT TO MEDDLE
EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
AND THE RESULT OF THAT IS
PERPETUAL WAR.
>> AND YOU SAY IT IS SHADOWY AND
MORE ILL-DEFINED.
MORE ILL-DEFINED THAN WHAT?
>> IT'S MORE ILL-DEFINED THAN
SIMPLY SAYING WALL STREET OR
SAYING THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL
COMPLEX, OR SAYING SILICON
VALLEY, OR THE CORPORATIONS.
IT'S A SYMBIOSIS OF ALL OF THE
ABOVE.
>> HERE'S YOUR SUMMING-UP
QUOTE -- "AS LONG AS
APPROPRIATIONS BILLS GET PASSED
ON TIME, PROMOTION LISTS GET
CONFIRMED, BLACK OR SECRET
BUDGETS GET RUBBER STAMPED,
SPECIAL TAX SUBSIDIES FOR
CERTAIN CORPORATIONS ARE
APPROVED WITHOUT CONTROVERSY, AS
LONG AS TOO MANY AWKWARD
QUESTIONS ARE NOT ASKED, THE
GEARS OF THE HYBRID STATE WILL
MESH NOISELESSLY."
IS THAT THE IDEOLOGY?
>> THAT IS A GOVERNMENT WITHIN A
GOVERNMENT THAT OPERATES OFF THE
VISIBLE GOVERNMENT AND OPERATES
OFF THE TAXPAYERS.
BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE
CONSTRAINED IN A CONSTITUTIONAL
SENSE BY THE GOVERNMENT.
>> IS THERE A SOLUTION TO THE
WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS NOW?
>> I THINK WE'RE STARTING TO SEE
SOME DISCORD IN THE IDEOLOGY OF
THE FACTIONS THAT MAKE UP THE
DEEP STATE.
WE'RE SEEING SILICON VALLEY JUMP
SHIP.
THEY ARE STARTING TO PROTEST
AGAINST THE NSA.
WE'RE SEEING THE TEA PARTY
BAILING OUT AGAINST THE DEEP
STATE.
THEY MAY BE WRONG ON MANY
ECONOMIC ISSUES.
BUT I DON'T THINK THEY'RE
NECESSARILY WRONG ON THIS ONE.
>> SO THE PUBLIC COULD BE
GROWING WISE?
>> I THINK THEY ARE.
THERE'S A MUCH MORE VIVID DEBATE
NG ON IN THE COUNTRY ABOUT
SURVEILLANCE EVER SINCE THE
REVELATIONS BY EDWARD SNOWDEN.
>> MIKE LOFGREN, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR BEING WITH ME.
>> IT'S GOOD TO BE