♪ >> Stephen: WELCOME BACK,

EVERYBODY.

MY NEXT GUEST IS A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR AND

HISTORIAN WHOSE LATEST BOOK IS "THE HOPE OF GLORY."

PLEASE WELCOME, JON MEACHAM!

>> THANKS, STEPHEN.

>> Stephen: JOHN, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

I ALWAYS WANTED TO SPEND MONDAY THURSDAY WITH YOU.

>> Stephen: THIS IS A TIME WHEN YOU WOULD PUT OUT THE

SEARCH FOR JESUS ISSUE.

>> IT WAS HARD TO GET THE INTERVIEW, BUT IT'S GREAT.

>> Stephen: AS AN HISTORIAN, I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR BOOK

"THE HOPE OF GLORY," FOCUSING ON THE SEVEN FINAL WORDS OF CHRIST.

>> IT WAS THE LAST WORDS FROM THE CROSS, IT'S AN OLD

ECCLESIASTICAL DEVICE TO PREACH ON GOOD FRIDAY ABOUT THE SEVEN

COMMENTS FROM FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY

DO ALL THE WAY THROUGH "IT IS FINISHED."

IT'S A MEDIEVAL DEVOTION.

I DID IT SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS AGO AT OUR OLD PARISH IN

NEW YORK, ST. THOMAS FIFTH AVENUE, AND IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY

ON GOOD FRIDAY TO CONTEMPLATE VARIOUS ELEMENTS OF THE LIFE OF

JESUS AND THE MEANING OF THAT LIFE THROUGH WHAT HE SAID IN

WHAT IS MOST UNQUESTIONABLY THE MOST AGONIZING PAIN YOU CAN

IMAGINE.

THE CROSS WAS RESERVED FOR SLAVES AND CRIMINALS.

YOU COULDN'T CRUCIFY A CITIZEN IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE, AND WHAT HE

MANAGED TO SAY IN THAT MOMENT AND WHAT THE CHURCH CAME TO

BELIEVE HE SAID, IT OFFERS YOU A REALLY AMAZING WINDOW INTO WHAT

THE MESSAGE OF JESUS WAS AND AS IMPORTANT WHAT THE EARLY CHURCH

THOUGHT HIS MESSAGE WAS, AS THEY WERE FACING IMMENSE PAIN AND

PERSECUTION AS THEY TRIED TO HOLD THE CHURCH TOGETHER.

>> Stephen: SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE CELEBRATING EASTER

WITH THE SOCIAL DISTANCING GOING ON RIGHT NOW?

ARE YOU CHANGING AT ALL?

>> OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE WE WOULD BE AT CHURCH.

>> Stephen: SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CHURCH, THOUGH.

SOME PEOPLE ARE DEFYING IT AND SAYING, NO, THE CHURCH SERVICE

ITSELF IS PART OF THE RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION AND TRADITION AND

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO STOP GOING.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> BEING WILLFULLY STUPID IS NOT PART OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION.

JUST DON'T DO IT.

THE EARLY CHRISTIANS MET IN HOUSES, THEY MET QUIETLY.

WE HAVE A CHANCE TO HAVE THE MOST AUTHENTIC EASTER YOU CAN

IMAGINE.

IT BEGAN WHEN THE DISCIPLES WERE IN HIDING.

THE DISCIPLES WERE SOCIALLY DISTANCED BECAUSE THEY WERE

AFRAID THEY WERE GOING TO GET ARRESTED.

WE'RE GOING TO BE IN OUR HOUSEHOLDS BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING

TO BE SAFE.

>> Stephen: YOU'RE AN HISTORIAN AND WRITE ABOUT

PRESIDENTS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE TO THE

CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC SO FAR?

THIS IS A GREAT CRISIS, THIS IS A GREAT MOMENT, AND IN GREAT

MOMENTS, GREAT LEADERS RISE TO THE OCCASION.

DO YOU THINK HE'S RISEN TO IT?

>> NO, I DON'T.

I THINK THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A PRESIDENT, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A SOCIAL CONTRACT, YOU

KNOW, THAT WE SURRENDER CERTAIN RIGHTS IN ORDER TO BE SAFE IN

GREATER NUMBERS.

THE PRESIDENT IS SO INTENT ON JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING HE'S DONE

THAT HE'S ACTING MORE LIKE A CHURLISH MONARCH THEN A LEADING

FIGURE IN A DEMOCRACY.

>> Stephen: I WISH MORE OF MY GUESTS USED THE WORD "CHURLISH."

( LAUGHTER ) >> WELL, HERE'S WHAT I THINK, IF

THERE WERE ANY WAYS TO DO THIS, WE SHOULD HAVE AN AVENGER'S TEAM

OF PRESIDENTS.

>> Stephen: IF WE COULD HAVE "THE" PRESIDENT FOR THIS MOMENT

NOW?

>> IT WOULD BE AN AVENGERS TEAM.

IT WOULD BE FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT WITH HIS SENSE OF HOPE AND BOLD,

PERSISTENT EXPERIMENT TAKE.

F.D.R., BRILLIANT, SAID ABOVE ALL, TRY SOMETHING.

TRY A METHOD.

IF IT FAILS, ADMIT IT FRANKLY AND TRY ANOTHER.

BUT ABOVE ALL TRY SOMETHING, AND DON'T DEFEND EVERYTHING I'VE

EVER DONE.

HE'S ALSO SAID, I'M LIKE A BASEBALL PLAYER.

IF I COULD GET A HIT EVERY COUPLE OF TIMES I WAS AT BAT, I

WOULD BE A HALL OF FAMER.

SO IF HE COULD HAVE AN F.D.R.

IF WE COULD HAVE LYNDON JOHNSON WHO COULD MAKE THE PRIVATE

SECTOR DO EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO DO, AND IF WE COULD HAVE

BARACK OBAMA WITH THE DEVOTION TO SCIENCE AND FACT, IF YOU

COULD HAVE THAT TEAM AT THIS MOMENT WE WOULD BE IN BETTER

SHAPE.

>> Stephen: AND HARRY TRUMAN FOR THE CLAUSE.

VERY FEW PEOPLE KNEW THAT.

WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN WRITING A BIOGRAPHY ABOUT

PRESIDENT TRUMP?

YOU'VE WRITTEN SO MANY GREAT PRESIDENTIAL BIOGRAPHIES.

>> THANK YOU.

THE THING ABOUT TRUMP THAT INTERESTS ME MORE THAN TRUMP IS

WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT US.

WHY HAVE SO MANY AMERICANS SURRENDERED THEMSELVES TO THIS

FIGURE OF -- HE'S WEAPONIZED NARCISSISM IN A WAY THAT I THINK

IS SHAPING ALL OF US FOR THE ILL, I REALLY DO, AND I'M NOT A

PARTISAN.

I'M NOT A REPUBLICAN, I'M NOT A DEMOCRAT.

I LIVE IN TENNESSEE, SO WHEN I SAY I HAVE CONSERVATIVE FRIENDS,

THAT'S REDUNDANT.

THIS IS NOT A CRAZY LEFTY THING TO SAY.

AS A CLINICAL MATTER, IF WE'RE GOING TO BE DRIVEN BY REASON AS

OPPOSED TO PASSION, A REASONABLE PERSON, LOOKING AT THE WAY THE

PRESIDENT HAS ACTED, WOULD FIND HIM REMARKABLY UNCOMMENSURATE

WITH THE TASK OF THE PRESIDENCY.

I DON'T THINK I COULD WRITE ABOUT HIM BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL I

DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THERE IS THAT WE DON'T KNOW, BUT I AM

INTERESTED IN WHY SO MANY OF US HAVE SUSPENDED OUR BETTER

JUDGMENT AND OUR BETTER ANGELS IN THIS MOMENT.

>> Stephen: WELL, JOHN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, SIR.

HAVE A HAPPY EASTER.

>> Stephen: HAVE A HAPPY EASTER YOURSELF.

"THE HOPE OF GLORY" IS AVAILABLE NOW.

JON MEACHAM EVERYBODY!