與Eddie Jaoude和Tanya Powell探討科技界的性別多樣性問題。 (Talking With Eddie Jaoude and Tanya Powell About Gender Diversity In Tech)

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We're going for a minute.
Apparently nobody watching.
That's good.
I could make some mistakes.
That's reassuring.
All right.
They're gone.
Live as well.
It's starting.
02 people watching.
Cool.
I want to say anything.
Do you just say, hey, in the chat on Dhe gets know who they are?
In twitch, you can get a list of who it is.
You could do that.
And, uh, participants it just as me You know how it is to which is me.
Let me know when you're ready.
And, uh, we'll do the introductions.
Yeah, I'm ready whenever you are.
Cool.
I had someone saying Hey, hey, let's go.
You want to go first?
Kanye starts off.
You're the most confident.
Yes.
Confident.
Yeah.
I don't tell you.
Probable.
Almost.
Software engineer yet, uh, over the company cooking system based in London.
Um, I mainly do fun end do little bit back.
And every now and again when I'm forced to a blood now are focusing more on the act Which Eddie tapes I do is better.
Oh, this is not today.
We did not discuss variety.
That's true.
Mother Stream.
You made me react.
A little off develops recently stolen.
Someone doing in the right spot been working.
So my somehow anything else, I'm missing something.
There's a bit about your team.
Actually, when we come back in a minute, I mean, just know your makeup of your team.
But maybe we'll come back to that.
Maybe we do intros and then come back to that.
Cool, Kyle, All yours.
All right.
Well, if you have the washing on my stream, you already know who I am.
I run the YouTube channel Web have simplified.
And when I'm not doing that, I work full time as a consultant for a consulting company doing Ruby on rails.
Work mostly so front end back and full stack, but development and, uh, yeah, that's pretty much it for May.
So, Eddie, if you wantto take it away for you Yeah.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Eddie on a full stack consultant as well on dhe I, mainly the moment the last few years focusing in force at Java script.
So no Js back end with typescript on Get out front and anglers Awesome react.
That's a discussion for another time.
Huge open source fan.
I even I think behind me you can see, you kind of get hub.
Christian and some other bits and pieces went for the focus to adjust.
So yeah.
Big open source.
Fan love turtles.
Hackathons.
I drag Can you with me to quite a few.
And usually close up the mess and the mistakes I make Thanks very much, Tanya on.
We've got to get Kyle Thio, come over the apartment and do some microphones in Europe.
That would be awesome.
That's the plan.
So I wanted to keep the next few months working on YouTube to get it right this way.
Andi.
Yeah, I do.
You two as well, but doing it for about nine months, I think.
Similar length A CZ tobacco company three.
My fault.
I met.
I watched the last dream while being part of life's dream.
Do you see the questions and stuff and type messages were just muted.
Yeah, have it.
But cool.
Um, yeah, that's that's basically me Awesome s.
So should we get started talking about the whole point of this live stream, then story It does have that.
Let's have that difficult discussion and have some actionable outcomes.
Although I do have an issue of my lifestream Lifestream health Is red snack good?
You might want to update, maybe update your bit rate.
UN supported resolution.
Okay.
Who?
Well, I hope it looks all right, I'm sure.
How's it look, Tanya?
Off port Demi unfolds It once said May when that's what's playing that.
Look ahead.
Fan Going off up?
Yes, they were mine on my Mac Pro.
I haven't record the discs with a stream, but anyway, I'm sure I'm sure it's fine.
If anyone in my stream can write and tell me how the view is, Do you see the thumbnails of the bottom right?
And you see us all in the picture.
Got like half of us cut out.
I'm sure it's fine.
Um, course, let's get this guest like just get stuck straight into the difficult questions.
So maybe it's interesting to actually hear about how our teams that made up I'd be interested to know.
Well, I can start if you want.
I can say that my current team that I'm working with, I do change that as a consultant.
A ll mail 100%.
Um and God, sorry.
If your team or the bullet is or do you have puree B a what?
What?
John Paul's makeup floating way.
We have the usual suspects s So we do have a product owner stroke and be a yesterday.
A conflict of interest.
There.
Another discussion.
We have, um, colicky way ish, um, on developers, designers, you x and, um yeah, but all guys, and there's something that they know there's a problem on that something.
Actually, I think this week we're gonna get chatting around, see how I can help.
I think.
Yet the CVI is they're getting are just gonna get filtered by the recruiters if I don't see the buzzwords and 20 years of react which doesn't exist.
Obviously, you know what?
They don't see those big numbers with those buzzwords recruiters send them through.
So I think that's a big part of the problem.
But we'll get into that in a minute, but yes.
Oh, when I arrived, it's all guys.
Um, and it's the old ice.
That's something you want change on.
I'm the most with a name in the UK They always I'm the most kind of non white male, I suppose, on the most diverse person.
How many people are in your team, Eddie?
Uh, 24 Only six, 67 seven year.
Barely.
Count that, huh?
I'm just trying to think, Yeah, yes, there.
Full time.
But yeah, um, anyone who was going next, I'm often go next, so I'm actually really, fortunately, my team.
Where the team of nine people, Um, it's five developers, two Q A cz, one Devon test and our team lead.
And it's five men and four women.
And as people form orderto backgrounds or different sexual orientations, we're in complete mix and blend off people of different cultures races, ethnicities, sexual orientations.
It's really It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful thing.
Nice on.
Did you do anything special tea to get That was Just was just happened.
It just happened.
Okay, that's really good.
Yeah.
I can't change my resolution while I'm streaming.
Okay.
I'll just have to deal.
Turned a bit right down.
Hopefully island.
Yeah.
I could get next then if we want to talk.
So with my team, there's also nine people.
We have 1/9 person starting very soon.
So right now, eight going to be nine in just a couple weeks.
And our team is three females and the rest are male.
So five or six, depending on when you watch this.
And, yeah, kind of like with Tanya.
We just kind of stumbled upon it.
Would never like Did anything special to get to that point.
Just kind of so happened that these were the people.
We found that with the best for the job.
And, yeah, everyone's developer on our team.
A couple people do a little bit more than development, but yeah, for the most part of you wants a developer.
It's a very, very white team for when it comes to race, everybody very white.
Unfortunately, not much diversity in that regard.
Other curiosity, how is it in the area?
So is it could be something to do with maybe the town with city.
That is definitely where I live.
It's very, very white.
Dominant.
Okay, fair enough.
Where is it?
What?
You live clo.
I live in Nebraska, in the United States.
It's like dead center.
Excuse me.
One moment of ah, Google for location.
That's, like very dead center of the U.
S.
That what you call Midwest?
Yeah.
Yes, In the Midwest.
Yeah.
The Midwest is really not west.
It's like mid just did multitasking.
Quite two people at the same time is all.
So we're getting some questions coming in, but I think let's continue little bit Maur.
So sorry, Edgar.
Let's continue little bit more than we'll get those get those questions in a kind of more technical questions.
But I'm curious to know you kind of walk.
What actions can we d'oh actions have people done that work and didn't work again?
I'm happy to start having to say that, you know, go to get invited a lot off diversity events that can be people there if you're looking for work and then I can wait.
We're looking for someone as well, kind of connect the two to kind of bicarb buy parts that recruiter stage for think filters out people incorrectly, so I think that's worked fairly well.
But timing's always off in terms of when we're not looking.
I usually meet people who are usually meet people who are looking for work and then vice versa.
When we are looking, I don't seem to meet as many people who are looking right there.
Then two timing becomes a bit more difficult, and also it doesn't scale in terms off.
There are lots of events going on in London at any one time, and I only go to you to so many events a week and only one event on that evening.
But also we do a lot of room.
We allow a lot of remote working as well.
Last 43 or 44 years mostly worked remotely, least 90% enough.
So go into these events.
Yes, you might want to work remotely or might like to, but they don't necessarily have to.
So we're not cut off casting that net wide enough because if we allow remote work, I'm going to an event in London.
Then excuse me.
They were not Carson net wide enough to maybe get people who are out of London or up north, or even in Europe, in no time zones that aren't too far too far off.
So that happened.
That has worked a little bit but hasn't worked enough.
I still like to know if it's him or that could be done, and I think that's on the Guinea people into the project of the team.
And then there's obviously how to keep people as well the amount of P places I've seen on DDE where they've had lots off kind of the best people come in.
They don't stay because the team hasn't bean bad but hasn't had considerations.
I think for other people as well you're not supportive enough.
Yeah, and just I don't know, just things like, what bugs me like, Hey, guys, right?
You know, he was saying that It's not an inclusive term, and it's such a simple one.
But I think it's time that people don't realize, actually, event I went to last week.
There was a guy from Frantz and he said, and he was learning English, anything.
It was quite good, but he is.
She he was taught that guy's meant both.
That's what he was kind of told.
We used it to.
He would use it like that.
No realizing that it wasn't, it wasn't inclusive.
So when we told him he was like, I didn't know, no one said anything and people used it all the time.
I think people do do copy, and so I think it's better to to get that, however a lot of women do you say, Hey guys, Well, I watched a military settle much discussion, maybe about a year ago on the hip chap about Hey, guys.
And that's what this is really interesting, because older women who will take a part of this discussion we're completely confused why anyone would find, Hey, guys offensive and one Go said.
But glides means everyone.
I'm just watching this conversation in the mouth.
This is quite interesting.
And, um, a few hours they are saw him with toilets, and she said to me, Do you find quietest offensive?
So either fun guys offensive but guys means men is a male 10.
And she had no idea she liked.
It's a male 10 work yet.
Look it up in a dictionary.
I must ask.
You generally had no idea she fought was gender neutral.
Yeah, well, yeah.
I met me at the U.
S.
Right.
We got the hey, guys from us, I'm sure for American movies and stuff, right?
Yeah.
Shots fired, overhears two versus one.
So we're all friends.
They're old friends.
Yeah.
Um, but you know what actions can we do?
Do you think I like to call people out on even on YouTube when I see other, Especially when it comes to you.
A female YouTube do right sir.
Thank you very much for the video.
However, you know, Please don't open the video with hey, guys, because your audience is mix so and some of them have responded is that I didn't think about that really sorry.
And they actually motive actually changed how they opened every years, which is great.
Um, whereas others, too, just ignored it.
So yeah, um, I mentioned it once, and that nasty stuff, their decision.
But yet in the workplace, I usually if I mentioned it, people usually remember they might occasion might make a mistake, but, you know, can I usually pick themselves up and I don't mean that.
Sorry.
I did occasionally.
Because if I hear someone all the time saying, Hey, guys, could we are a group of guys and then it's rest.
That's really bad.
Kind of habit.
Be according people out on it.
I also like So this is this what I haven't got any in the current clients project.
I haven't got any any women's.
I can't use this as an example in that place.
I understood here both of your feet back on this, but also I find when you're in meetings or having discussions.
Um, usually the minorities kind of more more quiet when they want to put that point across.
They don't insist so much.
It's only a system or or shouts louder.
Charleston.
One work actually yelling but speaks that more higher, forceful.
I don't get their chance to say anything to try and put the hand on DDE.
I wished wind.
I always sing what you call it.
Tell people to stop, say, Well, you know, this person is free to speak twice, and no one's giving them a chance.
Always called him out on that.
But I miss in this team.
I don't have to do that.
I'm the minority and I talked real loud.
That's fine in both of your team.
Liking in car car, you're saying you have 33 women and 45 men.
So do you find that they have a CZ?
Much of his voice is the others, Or do are there a bit quiet or not?
Listen, it was quite a people.
Just because everyone else just seems a bit louder.
I think for the most part it's pretty equal where I work, but I think that's also because of the kind of community and culture we have, where everyone's on the same level from, you know, the owner of the company all the way down to intern.
Everybody's treated very similarly, and everybody's given a chance to talk and to do these things.
One thing.
We actually do it.
My job is we do these weekly tech talks where everybody takes a turn, just presenting some kind of technology related topic.
It doesn't have to be technology related, but it usually is short, maybe 15 minute presentation, and everybody has to watch this and listen to it so it gives everybody an equal voice and an equal time to be that presenter.
And I think that really helps empower people that maybe wouldn't naturally go about doing these things because we make everyone do one, you know, least once every couple weeks or so.
So it really empowers these people that are quieter to speak up, and it will make them speak up more often in situations where then maybe would've stayed quieter, whether it's just a quiet person or a minority group that's just staying quieter because they maybe don't feels comfortable being surrounded by other people of the majority group, I think it's really good that you got that balance.
Yeah, it really helps having, you know, like, almost 50 50 because it's not quite 50 50.
But it's close enough that you don't really feel a minority.
If we had maybe one woman working with us and then eight guys, I could definitely feel like if I was that girl, I'd feel really intimidated, like you're the only one like you have so much to live up to be really stressful.
I have been the only one before on Lee ethnic minority and the only female in a team before up being in a room full of 15 white guys and me, we're like, um, a closes in Northwest Nightmare.
What?
The humor in internalizing on myself.
Mother sits intimidate in, like your middle class on working class as well as clear and on my club.
Like May and I found myself paying no attention to the meeting just in my head, in my own thoughts the whole time.
Not least this is gonna end interest in the end.
I wanna go or leave.
This is horrible.
What were they inclusive of?
What they mean?
What I call on my scalp.
I think it's human nature.
You feel comfortable with those who are like you, so, you know, almost opposite.
It's a roomful of people opposite.
Aww.
You just you just actually feel uncomfortable, and Oh, it was not good meeting for me.
Yeah, I suppose that's a good point.
You're right.
You Yeah.
If you feel like the odd one out immediately, no matter what it is.
Yeah.
No, I do understand.
That is actually a question in the chapter.
You tenure than if you could have a look.
Don't, um, question Britannia from Mr Johnny.
Petey, Do you feel any difficulties in being a diverse female in tech?
Uh, do you feel you have to work harder or better?
Is it to be a valuable part of the team?
Yes.
Okay.
Now, maybe because my team is so diverse, I don't feel that as much.
But when I was first starting out, I definitely felt I had to work harder to prove myself more.
And especially as you have some people many eminent you to see your face from you, you Is that your brain is well, you can ask me a question.
Oh, okay.
I get people asking your Instagram or Twitter.
Oh, can we see pictures of here with makeup on?
What's that got to do with my technical skills?
You know, I could help you, Bug.
Maybe.
I think if you correct twice now, I just want to see what I look like.
Okay, Bye.
But a group back there were times maybe look as much now before I had to work harder to prove myself because I was the only one.
So I thought that I was the representation.
The whole subculture of people.
Yeah, that's yeah, that's definitely tough.
I've heard that from quite a few people to and it took me a while to really understand why I, like you would feel that way, because to me, I was like, everyone's the same.
Why would you feel like you have to work harder, But it's kind of that environment you're putting where you're like the only one you know, you're the only woman, and you're the only woman of color.
And it's like you have so much to live up to assure representing everyone that is, you know, either a woman or whatever.
So it's like you're not just another white guy, you are the only.
So it's a lot to live up to.
Just really tough.
I walk in So going back Thio Not your current place, but a place before where you you were the odd one out which just happen, right?
Happens at events where there is, you know there is.
The minorities are in the minority.
What kind of people do to kind of help?
I've recently learned trying to introduce him to people from I felt more comfortable.
What can what can other people do to help?
That isn't going so far beyond that.
It looks like you're making so much even if it makes it awkward in the first place.
Bless O really hard one, actually, because who I actually don't know.
Okay, well, I don't know, just looking at some of the questions in the chart that if you've got the questions coming in, Kyle do John, I got a couple, I got one, actually, that it's kind of relatable.
So back to the conversation about the meeting, where you kind of felt overwhelmed and quieter.
I have person Marcus that just asked.
He said, Is there anything that the guys at the meeting could have done to make you feel more included and accepted.
Maybe it was a massive discussion.
Israel, 16 of us and made well, asteroids intended rising and just becoming quiet on quiet talk.
Maybe just pull me back into the discussion in Black Daniel.
Stop outfit, Wake up.
Be part of it.
Be active.
Well, there was a point, but I was very visibly inactive in this meeting.
Just sat in a corner, paying no attention.
So maybe we snapped me out of it.
What?
Hate your party's discussion.
Be active, be present.
That would make a present.
Maybe not everyone, but I would appreciate that.
Yeah, even something like a simple saying like, Hey, Tanya, do you agree with this?
Like that would have brought you back in exactly.
And that's really easy to ask.
So sweet.
Yeah, this truck just just being inclusive in terms of having you involved in the conversation about making too much of a big deal out of it, that's even worse, right?
Make too much of a big deal out of it that it's the again the opposite if you don't wanna.
I don't want a fuss made over years and no one wants a fuss made over themselves.
Yeah, but I have more self aware recently off anyone who's quiet in, but backlog battle gloomy in or canon session.
I'm very conscious off people who are quite it was me and thinking, Are you Do you understand what we're discussing?
Maybe Red going to technical and your bit more Virginia to make it, We need to a little bit more high level.
This is just being self aware of us around you.
Just the meeting last night.
Some was being a bit too quiet.
I'm not.
Hey, do you understand what we're talking about?
That's a good point, right?
That's bridging the gap between the different levels in intact as well.
So from yes, like different, away from junior to senior.
Anyone in the in the stream have any tips and feedback on?
Yeah, How to bridge the gap between, I guess, minorities on also with, I guess, more junior people.
Yeah, suggestion off.
Making sure that they are clear on what's going on.
I think a really good one.
Uh, Kyle, go back to your team.
How is your team?
Made up?
Off levels is in.
Are you are your seniors.
Do you have juniors in there?
Fairly fluid, like there's no titles for anyone that works there.
You're essentially either, like an intern.
If you're an intern and then you're a developer and that's really the only two titles we have.
We have the two owners of the company, which kind of sit at a little bit higher level because they do a lot of business management on top of development.
But pretty much everybody else is held at a very equal level.
Their skill level may not be the same.
For example, when I first started, I was in the lower school level than most the people that had been there before.
But I was still treated equally, and I was able to just ask for help for where I was lacking skills and get to the point where I was at a similar skill level to where everyone else is.
So there was really no set in stone structure, but there's a little bit of ah, hey, this person is newer, so they may not know as much, so we're gonna help them out and let them ask more questions kind of thing.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
I'm just looking in there in my my chat on Duh.
Where is it?
I saw a quite interesting question.
Um, the guys, Is this a big thing where you are our diversity?
I'm asking because I think that it's a preference.
I think a lot of people don't realize the lack of diversity and the lack of what then they're missing out on themselves.
In I went Thio hackathon and I took up my male friends of me and it waas a really good hackathon on DDE.
We actually our teams split end up being split half and half.
So we actually hot half caf me, my friend.
And the other half were were two women that we met and they weren't techies.
They were Maur from the non tech site was really interesting was how they contributed to the team and tryto deal with the challenges We had looked at things very differently from our sometime I'm looking very small part of diversity years.
I'm not saying this is covered everything but what was interesting wars we won because we can't pay off a better solution because they looked at it very differently from the way we looked at.
It's We're not coming up with a better a better solution on dhe.
I think if you then go, why do we have diversity?
Not just your agenda.
You go into a ll the other other areas.
Then again, you're gonna get a better answer.
When who's seen the video off the common where it was on Facebook.
The Handwerker, um and, um when yet Someone or have darker skin, Put their hand underneath the hand dryer.
That's a hair dryer.
Went hand dryer.
It didn't turn on.
Just all that's just so weird.
Whereas if they had gone is part of development teams on the testy, these things wouldn't occur.
And technology.
I really believe that technology is for everybody on dhe, if you don't have that mixed the beginning of the journey that you're trying to solve a later I wasn't the issue with the apple one.
The apple APS I'm Was it for it was a female app was for like ever met them.
The menstrual was developed by 12 guys, and there was one most obvious feature that was needed.
Apparently missed out because guys didn't really kind of get how to use it and all the rest.
So technically it was good, but practically.
It was bad.
I have to dig it out.
It really made me laugh when I when I I really yeah, glove.
But I'm sure it's a lot of examples of other people have, um Well, yeah, I think, really, like with the whole diversity in certain areas where there's, like a preference or need and whether stronger in other areas, I think certain areas emphasize diversity more than other areas.
Like I feel like where you guys live in, like a UK and Monday.
It's much more emphasized there rather than where I live.
It's much less emphasizes.
Not nearly as many events focused on women in tech in like the Midwest where I live, but we need more of those, I think, like, just wait.
Raising awareness is really important in these places where you may think it's part of preference is more because they probably just don't realize it like, I never really thought of it as a problem and it really kind of realized it when I was in school like I may have been realizing like, Oh, there's only one woman in all of my classes, you know, for a computer science.
But it didn't have really thought of it until after I kind of, like, got further into really rise that there was this big diversity gap in this problem here, and it's just because there wasn't enough education about it.
So I think having those events is really important.
Just add one more thing to those events, though I see those events as a stepping stone in my lifetime.
I really hope that those events are no longer because they're no longer needed is in the problem's solved.
If that made thanks, that's what I would have.
I mean, great.
We have the revenge of the same space, you know, for women attacked from baby attack and all the other groups, they have brilliant.
So I'm hoping one day they're not needed because that problem solved.
And I really hope that I can see that in my lifetime.
Carlo, when did you I realized there was a problem I was saying was part way through when I was in school, when I got to my more upper bubble classes like junior senior year of College, because in the earlier classes it's not as noticeable since you take so many general education classes that I would see a lot of women in those classes.
But when I was taking mostly just, you know, programming related classes, I would notice I would have classes that were, like all male or maybe just one or two females in an entire class of 40 people when I was like This is definitely not right And I thought, Maybe it's just where I live.
And then when I started doing YouTube, I noticed, based on my analytics, that it was definitely global because I get maybe, like, less than 5% female viewership and 95% Jill.
So it's very, uh oh, yes, very, very bad.
I am when all my videos that focus on on coding I've got to agree with Carlo Minor probably like 80% male and female.
And then when I do gotta go Thio, guest diversity events, women tech events and those videos is it's flipped the old opposite way around.
And so I get kind of only 20% male watching those videos, and I think it's it's that's of numbers I need to increase Billy to get when It's like like you were saying, I need to get awareness for those videos and then kind of, you know, people can realize that there's there's a problem.
Why them doing nothing about it?
Is there kind off compounding the problem?
We need to make an effort and do something, even a small effort by making effort than they can be.
Part of solution.
Yeah, definitely.
I feel like it's really easy as the majority group to say that there's no problem because you don't face the same struggle as someone that's in that minority group trying to break into the majority group.
You're just like, Well, I did it.
It was easy.
Why can't you do it?
And it's really easy to get that mindset because you've never had to face the other side of the spectrum.
So it's really important to kind of educate, I would say is probably best word, those people in the actual real struggle that there is, Yeah, that makes sense.
Uh, one question actually got here is from here.
The guy says, Do you guys want quotas to be put in place for alleviating the issue of gender diversity?
And I want one of you guys take it before I give my opinion on it.
I was just gonna say, Hey, people not Hey, guys.
Well, okay, Yeah, that's true.
That's that's one way to prove it.
It's a hard habit to break the quota thing.
I'm on the fence somewhere.
Can you jump in first thing?
Oh, mean of you?
I'm also an offensive.
I understand what is trying to achieve to try and get fat balance.
However, there will be some people who you know.
Well, you've just been hired because your woman you have to fight once you're inside.
What fight?
That was actually No, I'm a woman.
I've got the skill.
Say I can do the job.
Yes, I was hired to fill that quote hard.
Hard is a really hard one.
I gotta go in.
Ah, I go.
I go around in a roundabout with the quota was actually on a panel for TfL London.
Andi, I tell you, you came to watch, but it was It was next to me.
He was really passionate about quotas.
Another guy in the audience.
He was from a minority group.
But he was the opposite.
They're having, right?
You know back and throw between back and forth between them.
About is, it could not.
So it's It's a hard one.
I just I'd rather just see a diverse.
I'm hiring a reality, a diverse mix off off.
See these or candidates from the beginning Ryan and then pick the right person for the job than having a quota.
But then, because you're not getting that and maybe the quota does help, which they have, what, 10.
CVS?
They're all kind off your typical white male or whatever you wanna call it, then maybe I should wait to get a few more before actually make the higher it's It is a really, really hard one.
So I don't know if I answered that question or not.
And, well, let me take my stuff about it cause I'm unfairly against the idea of using a quota to tryto increase the diversity because I feel like it's just a false, increasing diversity if there even is one, because maybe you're going to be hiring more females or more people of color, whatever it is that you're trying to fill with that quota.
But it's kind of like a false sense of thinking that there's more people that are actually being hired and Clint, because really, what you're doing is you're just forcing these companies to hire these people, and they're just gonna stop once they hit their quota.
And then they're gonna just hire more people, maybe of whatever they actually wanted to hire.
If that makes sense, like it's gonna make them just force them to hire people that they maybe didn't want to.
Maybe they're just hiring a bunch of people because they have to.
And then others hire other people on the other side of the quota because maybe they needed 10 females that they needed higher still fire 10 females in the higher 10 males and others make these females not do as much work because they didn't want to hire them, not because they're bad, but made because they're biased.
For example, I also think it's bad for the perspective of the people being hired because it makes you question yourself.
Like Tanya said, like I know if there was a quota for you know, my mail, for example, if there's a male quota that need to be filled, I would feel like that I got hired because I was good and I get hired because I was male and it would really make me question myself, which I think is probably the biggest problem with quotas.
Yeah, does that make sense what you're saying?
So I kind of do.
I do understand.
I don't know.
I just I'm so Torn quoted.
I think there's there are pros and there are condoms a lot on both sides.
That's why I guess in the fence, and it's kind of weird.
I saw a documentary or something a while back, and it was quite interesting because they're I think I'm making a joke out of it.
But it's quite funny in that.
They said they got a higher 7% of women has presented minorities and the number because their team was a weird number inside after hire 1/2 female and it was just like Does it kind of makes sense?
So yes, it's Ah, it's a tough one.
Um, and I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer in that suppose, but if we can get more Seymour diverse people into the pipeline in terms of what's couple, so I hire a lot of people so I can get a good mix from there, then you're gonna hire the right person for the role to think the best thing to do.
Therefore, the company gets the right people they want, and the person isn't feel that we hired to fill a quota.
But I think it's just how I'm blaming recruiters again.
And they just see buzz words.
20 years react.
Brilliant.
You know, it's just like as this person forward and typically the guys exaggerate.
I used to be that guy who used to not exaggerating tens of years, but Easter embellish it a bit more.
Where is now really got more?
The Impostor syndrome One.
Maybe I've only got one month angular on door minus one year.
Angular.
Yeah, yeah, I think a way to fix the issue.
You're talking about getting more people of diversity to actually applying for jobs.
Just getting more people interested in technology is too kind of tackle, the root of why people go into technology to begin with, because I feel that as a younger person is when you really shape what you want to do with your life, and I feel that many people get into technology because they are doing something on a computer or on some kind of technological device that interest them in computers and technology and programming.
And I think one of those things that's really interest a lot of young males is video games.
They'll be playing severe games.
They'll be really interested in it and they'll say, I want to create something like that.
This is really cool.
I wish I could do this, and that will empower a lot of people that I've talked to, I know to go into programming or computer science.
But since video games are very targeted towards the male demographic, very male dominant.
I feel that is why a lot of males go into programming just proportionately to women because there's a much smaller percentage of women that play video games, for example, so they don't have that same exposure.
I don't know what your guys his opinions on this are, but it's kind of just a thought I had.
What's a good point?
I never fall for actually.
Does Tanner.
You play games as a kid?
Didn't you still play games?
Now that probably makes a lot of just analyzed my entire life.
They get in deep.
That makes sense because of all my friends were more crunk hope dirty girls when I told them what I'm doing, what I see, their eyes closed over.
Like, what is she saying to me?
What is she talking about?
Or if I say come and play this game with me for that, how came you like?
I'm trying to be friendly?
I think you make who never fought that Chlo, huh?
Are, I think, pretty back of the days?
Well, maybe a lot of the games yet we're focused Maur kind of shooting and blowing.
Things are.
But what kind of boys typically prefer right?
Very masculine.
That shouldn't shouldn't be like that.
But maybe if games I think they're better now, that right.
I don't wanna play games in a long time, but I think the game's probably better now that they're Maur neutral, I suppose, is what they should be.
Yeah, I think it's definitely better now, but it's not like good by any measure, like it's not as targeted towards males, but it's still very disproportionately male versus female and when it comes to the people that actually play video games, but there are a larger percentage female.
Then there was 10 15 years ago.
Yeah, that's true.
I'm just looking at The challenge is catching up.
We've got people from New York represent the U.
S.
Again.
I said representing the U.
S.
Yeah.
God, Algeria as well, Which is cool.
I didn't ask him my chat where people were from a beautiful Know what?
Best of your people from cars while they watched us or Yeah, I recognize a couple of people in the chat.
I know someone from Sweden from the U S.
So got us.
We got Europe.
We got a couple of us that I recognize.
Cool.
Someone asked.
A question about hackathons is a good way to find jobs.
I think so.
I try and hire people microphones.
I go to really believe that if you could work with someone for two days where you know, you're both kind of tired too stressed race against the clock.
You're hungry, the more tired and you can work with other people.
You do well and you get on with them and you could see that actually decent people then you know, in a better environment a workplace environment where it's You're not gonna be that stat stressful than that kind of cutting corners and all the rest, you know, that they know, for I even and support other people in the workplace.
So I really loved the hyper from hackathons, and I wont to some places where I've we hadn't needed to hire anyone.
But I liked someone so much we we wanted, we encourage him to join our team.
And we spoke to our boss, said, What has my client?
I'm a contractor.
I said, Look, you don't want to change.
This person is great for your team on.
We've made rolls for that person.
So yeah, two going, going back, back of thorns.
I think they I think they're great.
Really do.
Even for genius.
I know quite a few juniors who have got hired act dons, and companies are starting to run more hacker funds so they can look at the talent again.
I don't have a high opinion of recruiters.
Actually, that's probably wrong.
I don't even have a low opinion over more like, you know, they're just trying.
They're just trying to just yet make money with the least amount of effort on maximum gain in.
Yeah.
So it's a numbers game for them right there.
Just for those of rubbish at the wall was gonna say, estate, try team they dropped in the war on Hope.
Something sticks, they don't.
Soon as you say.
Yeah, I want that role.
And soon the client says I want that person have lost interest in you and they're kind of moving on.
So I've only used three recruiters in 15 years, and I'm hoping that number never goes out.
Going Recommendations meet people, act on the events.
Sorry.
I'd like rest of it anyway, but we also need my diversity, aka phones as well.
I went thio.
What about the many hackathons, but most likely to go to our mail.
Typical kind of male dominated on dhe.
I went to agenda.
Paige up hackathon on dhe.
There was only three guys out off, like, 70 people there on dhe, you know, gender paying up hack.
So it didn't I guess it wasn't exciting.
I don't know why there was less of a turnout from the from the guy site.
Do guys not care about the gender pay gap?
So that was Yeah.
Just pointing.
Yeah, I think part of the problem.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Now you go ahead.
Maybe when it comes to events like heckle forms or me up.
So whatever it may be, maybe if the subjects are more gender neutral subjects, I can't think of any Took my head.
Well, maybe that will make it more balanced if it's something.
Oh, what what you're thinking and then jump in there and say But gender pay gap I still think is neutral because even if you're a guy, you're gonna have us probably have a sister.
Among one day you might have a daughter.
You know, you want to solve the problem for not just for yourself, but for your family members that you have now have in the future.
So I still see gender pay Gap is everyone's problem.
Well, not everyone's gonna think like that, but there's a lot of self centered, selfish people who could who concerned about me and me only true.
But then one day they might get married, right?
If they marry a woman, then they want her to earn more so there for them as a couple and more as well.
So I feel it is just and that is just I see that is it's a problem for everybody.
But, like like Tom, you said not everybody thinks that way.
Even I, like, never even thought about it that way.
Like in the way of like, Oh, you know, like my wife or my sister of my mom, like those people are gonna be negatively affected by I never liked connected it like that so personally before, I feel like a lot of guys they just write it off is like, Well, I'm not affected by that, So oh, well, not my deal, You know, I'm getting paid more.
Okay, whatever.
Like that's how a lot of guys I feel think about it because it's it's really not directly impacting them.
It's indirectly impacted in that it's harder to get fired up about something that stopped directly affecting you.
True, no fair point.
You made a good point, though, about the whole relation and family thing.
Like I feel like we need to present that more because that's very directly relatable to people.
I only learned to express it in that sort of way recently because going to these events meeting these people happy with other people's opinions, especially the minorities.
That's why I love go to these events because I get to be blah ticket in a different way and eventually have something kind of sticks, right?
That's why I do it.
So I do it because I think is right.
But then when someone says it, I can articulate it again.
Better to other people on DA Yeah, When someone said it like that to me, I didn't make that out.
I can't 100 credit for that.
Like, uh, wow, you know, that actually doesn't make sense.
And I want to use that a lot because yeah, it absolutely does make sense.
That's all we need to encourage people to go to these sorts of events and so they can.
They can live.
Understand?
Um, I don't get why I recorded all of the events of you two can't hopefully reaching a wider You know what?
Our audience Yeah, I have actually someone that just made a comment in my chat that I think is pretty interesting, ill phrased as a question for you guys.
But he said, in India, we have a national level hack a thon, where we have to include a female team member in order to apply for that.
Hackathon What your guys is opinions on that.
It's kind of like a quota, but it's not for a job.
It's more for a you know, Hackett on a more informal event like, What do you guys think about that going tiny?
I'm talking too much.
It's still raw, quoted to me.
Yeah, so that lady may fall up.
I'm just being part of a team just so the rest of the team can participate in the hacker form.
Yeah, it's kind of like the years overthink everything.
I'm thinking in my head because of my babies, all my head because of my gender.
And if it's kind of like that, that old, you know, in, you know, middle school, gym or whatever, where you always had to include a female on your team for whatever you're doing and female Jim.
And it made you that female sometimes feel like Am I here because I'm good on my heel because I'm a female?
Yeah. 00:46:26.7