Is it right that Scotland should be denied a second referendum a bit on this?

What a surprise.

Do you want to kick it off on this?

Well, I principally don't think there's a mandate for it.

And my I've always taken the principle of you, and I do listen to look forward to listening to what you've got to say on this issue in the audience this evening.

But I've always taken the principal position that it's Scotland's best interest to be a member of the United Kingdom and actually the United Kingdom's best interests.

For Scott to be part of that, Brexit will be bad.

We don't know what was gonna happen over the next level months.

We just don't keep our fingers crossed that things will work out.

I don't think they will, but that's a different question altogether.

But to then have Scottish independence.

On top of that, in my view, wouldn't be the equipment of cutting your nose off to spite your face it the equivalent of cutting your head off.

And I really do think we need some answers to those big questions all the time.

Why was Jeremy Corbyn say he wouldn't if people wanted it a referendum he wouldn't stand in his way.

Well, I said I thought it was wrong on that.

I mean, we're principally an internationalist party that believes in solidarity.

If you disagree with the ends, you should disagree with the means.

The last politician who disagreed with the ends but facility the means was David Cameron on Brexit.

Look what happened.

So we just may well disagree on some of these issues.

And we have to listen teacher than respect each other's opinions.

Onda will be people in the audience, people across the country.

I think we should have a second independent referendum tomorrow.

I think it would be bad for Scotland's interest, not just in the UK but in the world.

And what we need to do is get onto two big things.

One trying to deal with the issues of public service is in Scotland have just got progressively worse for the last 10 or 12 years on Dhe.

Secondly, let's have the bigger the big questions asked.

I want a positive discussion about why the UK is good for Scotland, and I also want to be able to exploit.

My independence would be bad.

Let's have that debate rather than talking about the process of whether or not we should have a second independence referendum.

Maybe we'll hear tonight what the currency would be.

The border at Baruch.

All the wrongheaded arguments we've had in studios like this for last two years on Brexit at exactly the same wrongheaded arguments and Scottish independence.

And we have to have that debate.

Will his.

I'm going to start by quoting back in his own words when he supported a second EU referendum when he said When circumstances change, people should be allowed a second vote.

I wasn't not know we had just let me finish saying That wasn't Theo.

Did you agree with him On the eighth of April 2019?

In the Commons last year, you said that you were said You're paraphrasing somebody else, but that's what you said.

Just what you say to the circumstances change.

People should be allowed to say convert Now.

I know at the time you were talking about Brexit, but I'm seeing the same principle that you were exposing their can apply to Scottish independence in 2000 and 14 when people in Scotland voted to stay in the U.

K.

It was a very different United Kingdom.

They were voting to stay in one of the central promises of the better together campaign.

Wasn't the way to preserve your you Citizenship was devote to remain part of the United Kingdom.

That is no no longer the case.

I were also feast with the most right wing government that we've seen in modern times, which Scotland overwhelmingly didn't vote for on.

I believe that there is a mandate to the Scottish National Party, which supports independence in a second referendum keeps winning elections in Scotland Ian we won the last election pretty impressively with 40 with 45% off the votes and over 80% off the off just just quickly finishes.

And in the Scottish Parliament, Scottish Parliament are democratically elected body for Scotland as water to hold a second independence referendum on Paul's suggest that the majority of people no.

One to second independence referendum conceded the last in the margin of the last.

The last Paul's have shored a majority in fever off independence, but but they are close yes and within the margin of error is they can't be there can't be a stronger but bear in mind.

Bill, Mind this funeral.

When we started the Independence Referendum campaign back in 2000 and 12 we started at 28% on we went to 45%.

Some people think we went up to above 50 and then fell back again because of the vote.

Will never be sure about that.

Let's t start from a base.

Your scent is pretty promising to run your camera from a beast.

50.

Let let's let's cut to the chase.

What would you like to have?

I got Nicholas Sturgeon, who is who is requesting permission effectively from the from the prime minister to be able to hold a second independence referendum.

You want to go further than that, don't you?

Well, I want to make it perfectly clear that I've never advocated a wildcat or what some people call an illegal referendum.

We would rather surprising if I did so given that I'm a senior member of the legal profession on devoted a large part of last year to defeating Boris Johnson in court for doing something unlawful.

However, the weight off legal opinion is that it is by no means certain that the Scottish Parliament doesn't have the competence to hold a referendum.

So I agree that we should be making sure that the referendum is properly constituted and lawful.

But I also agree with Nicholas Sturgeon, my party leader, that the weight of legal opinion is that it's not clear that the Scottish Parliament doesn't have the power to pass a bill to hold a referendum on.

As Nikola has said, it would be interesting to see that it test it.

My point is that I don't think the Scottish electric should be at the mercy off Boris Johnson's say so.

Mr Johnson is a man with a very cavalier attitude towards democracy.

Ondas.

We saw last year a very cavalier attitude towards the rule of law.

So I'm interested in finding ways in which Scotland can hold our lawful a referendum but are more interested in creating the vision and the arguments that will win that referendum on.

I think it's important to answer Ian's point in simply wrong.

To see that the Scottish government runs a poor public service is the facts and figures.

Simply don't bear that out and I'm happy to go through them later.

It's also possible.

Okay?

It's also possible to deal with constitutional issues and run the country at the same time.

Lots of can I just come from Theo?

Yes.

So the man with the glasses in the dark new sweater Independence Referendum.

Who's going to be paying for populace?

Okay, I'm gonna go around the audience first.

I didn't see that.

I'm gonna go around.

There was just a bit.

Then I'll come back to us.

But the Danish, it surely is only the men and wait.

But MP in Scotland even could see that has party.

Maybe need to change their stance on the independence referendum.

A shift at one of the engage with a scholarship.

Yeah.

So you say that I simply only got 45% of the vote.

But I know loads of people that would vote independence but didn't vote for the SNP.

Okay.

The woman in the pulpit with the glasses?

Yes.

Hello.

Thank you.

And I fear that Brexit has become a convenient few to reignite the independence fire.

And I think what Scotland needs to hear is what the economic arguments are for or against independence.

So, Tom Brexit is the fuel to the Independence.

Farce is this.

Is this going light?

Boris Johnson's door responsibility for an independent Scotland?

The guy I got into politics for a simple reason which was to serve our communities and to improve the lives of the people were lucky enough to share these islands with.

And when I look around the country and I see the struggles that we're having in making sure the health service runs well, that school's delivering the results that we want to see for our kids.

When I look at the infrastructure investments, we need to see whether it's the Queen's free bridge or any other different improvements that we need to get.

And I see another argument about a constitutional change that is going to distract politicians from serving people from serving what we really need.

Reducing waiting times, treating cancer, educating kids, building the economy.

And I see instead another argument about whether or not we should split up our country.

I have to say I find it very sad, and I find it very sad because this isn't an economic argument for me.

This isn't an argument as to whether or not Scotland is big enough for two small well, whether England would be better or worse without Scotland.

For me, this is a fundamental argument about who we are as a people.

And when I look around these islands, I'm not a foreigner in Dundee.

This is our country.

We share it, we share it together and I find it incredibly sad when people talk in a way that splits us, divides us.

And I know politicians of all sides do it or not making a partisan point.

But I do find it deeply sad when actually these islands have done an amazing thing over the last 300 years, they've achieved some fantastic results.

Yes, we've had some mistakes, too, but we have really brought in awful lot to the world.

We have in a fantastic force for good over many years, and I think it's a real sadness to see that perhaps being thrown away and do you think I'm presented with a point of any of any of the blame for this lies with Boris Johnson for pushing Brexit whenever see Scotland voted overwhelmingly to her name.

Well, we know from the last referendum in 2014 that settled will the Scottish people.

At the time, it was clear I'm not in a position.

Electra.

I represent a fantastic community in Kent, and it's not for me to tell people living here in this wonderful part of the United Kingdom that how they should vote for what they should do.

But I listen to those people who led the referendum on both sides, and I I heard pretty clearly that it was the decision for a generation and in five years isn't a generation.

Tom obviously has done his best to dodge your question.

Their fears about the answer to it is that is that and he's done so very eloquently and an elegantly and so on.

But the answer to the question is yes, of course.

Brexit is at the heart of this.

You know that if it weren't for Brexit, we would not be talking about this issue because it is Brexit that has put it back on the table.

On If you're an SNP supporter, it put it back on the table in ways that are quite reasonable and persuasive.

That does make for the kind of material change in circumstance that would justify a second referendum.

So from their point of view, yes, of course, it's perfectly appropriate to seek another referendum right now.

Now, the counter to that is also, however, perfectly respectable and persuasive, which is that five years is not a very long time.

And although Brexit may or may not prove to be a terrible blunder or perhaps a great success, who knows that it is not long enough to justify revisiting a question that everybody promised that the time would be respected for years to come?

And so you are talking about competing claims of legitimacy on that present at present, you know, this may, of course, change.

It is, if you like on the anti referendum side that has the ascendancy on the SNP win plenty of handsome election victories and so on, although it is worth bearing in mind the caliber of people they beat.

But that itself is not enough because general elections are about lots of different issues, you know.

But when you actually ask, people should be a referendum on independence.

Referendum on the timetable notionally favored by Nicholas Sturgeon i this year or before next year's Hollywood elections, you find that most people actually say no, there shouldn't.

The most recent YouGov pole on this specific question reported that 30% of the SNP his own supporters do not think there should be a referendum on that timescale, which is why I think the U K government can get away with saying no at the moment.

Now, after a 2021 Hollywood election, depending on the results there, it's on.

Circumstances may change, and that line may become much, much more difficult to hold.

But it will hold for now because most people in Scotland don't want a referendum.

If 80% of people in Scotland wanted a referendum, it would happen.

But for as long as the country is evenly divided, it won't like a light.

Ask five SNP Think that Scotland would be better tied to and France and Germany aunt would say, plus separate us from England wheels in Ireland as a group.

Why do you think we'd be better off tighter and jam it in France?

That's not what we think.

We think Scotland would be better off as a member of the European Union.

We also think England would be better off as a member of the European Union on.

It's my dearest wish to see England come back into the European Union and sit at the top table alongside an independent Scotland.

That you're very clearly asking yes is.

Why do you want to separate from from the rest the UK when you actually wait, we don't want to question the way.

I don't want to separate from the kind of implied Well, Theo, stay Parts of the UK way.

Want to exercise our right to self determination and become an independent country?

Only Jonah.

Your deal.

Arguing to leave well, that doesn't have to involve separation.

We're not leaving something.

The United Kingdom is a union of two nations, Scotland and England.

If Scotland, it was a voluntary act of union was a union between Scotland and England.

If Scotland wishes to withdraw from that union, there will no longer be a United Kingdom that we that we understand that.

So he wasn't left.

The reason that we want to be part of the European Union is we see Scotland's future in the European Union.

Otherwise, Scotland's future is tight.

England completely at the whim off English waters choose cannot write you.