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  • We've all found ourselves in conversation and felt attacked

  • like we started off talking about one thing and then the other person twisted

  • our words and before we knew it, we lost our cool, lost respect in their eyes, and maybe even acted like a jerk.

  • Now, I don't normally do the same person twice in a row but

  • this interview between Cathy Newman and Jordan Peterson

  • was just too interesting of an opportunity to discuss how you can handle someone

  • who uses subtle conversational tricks to bully you into looking dumb.

  • So in this video, you're gonna see firsthand some of the most common tricks

  • that people might be using on you and you're also gonna learn

  • how to reverse those so that you can walk out of a kind of aggressive situation

  • having earned more respect than you had going in.

  • So first off, to stop a conversational bully,

  • you have to realize what's going on before it's too late.

  • Now, typically, a person will reveal their aggressive attitude early on

  • with their tone of voice and their word choicekind of like this

  • ...but I wasn't specifically aiming this message at young men to begin with;

  • it just kind of turned out that way but

  • And it's mostly, you admit, it's mostly men listening.

  • In this case, Cathy is indicating very clearly that she thinks Jordan has done something wrong.

  • Otherwise, why would she use the word "admit?"

  • She makes her stance clear a moment later when she implies that he should be bothered for being divisive. Just watch.

  • Does it bother you that your audience is predominantly male? Is that a bit divisive?

  • The point here is that even when they're being passive-aggressive,

  • people will often indicate that they're about to attack you before they actually do.

  • So if you hear someone say something like,

  • "Well, what do you have to say for yourself?" be prepared.

  • That person thinks that you've done something wrong and you need to be

  • very careful what you say next not because you did do something wrong

  • but because a conversational bully may be trying to trap you into saying

  • something that you disagree with so that they can attack that straw man.

  • And the first way that this often happens is called the "so-you're-saying trap." Here's what it looks like.

  • So you're saying women have some sort of duty to sort of help fix the crisis of masculinity?

  • Women want to dominateis that what you're saying?

  • So you're saying that anyone who believes in equality whether you call them feminists or whatever you want to call them

  • should basically give up because "it ain't gonna happen."

  • Let me just get this straight; you're saying that we should organize our societies along the lines of the lobsters.

  • The general pattern here is that someone says, "So you're saying..."

  • and then proceeds to oversimplify or mischaracterize what you actually said.

  • I won't spend too long here because it's very easy to spot

  • and it's rather simple to avoid and get around by saying,

  • "Well, actually, what I was saying is..." and then repeat yourself.

  • ...along the lines of the lobsters.

  • I'm saying that it's inevitable that there will be continuity

  • in the way that animals and human beings organize their structures.

  • But there's a much sneakier way that people may mischaracterize your beliefs and then attack them.

  • Basically, it's when someone's words imply that you believe something you don't and they don't actually say it.

  • So in business, they call this "assuming the sale" like when a car salesman says,

  • "So would you like that with the leather interior or with the fabric interior?" before you even decided to buy the car.

  • Now, with the several thousand dollar purchase, you're likely to notice this and say,

  • "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said I was buying in the first place?"

  • But it's very likely that this is happening to you in conversation all the time and you don't even notice. Here's how it might look.

  • [Cathy talks over Jordan] Yeah, but why? Why should woman put up with those reasons?

  • Embedding the question "why should women put up with it?" are several important presuppositions; namely

  • one, that there is something to put up with and two, that Jordan thinks woman should put up with it.

  • Now, the trap here for Jordan would be to answer Cathy's question directly

  • and many of us fall into it in similar situations

  • then we start arguing for things that we don't even really believe just out of habit.

  • Instead, you need to identify that hidden presupposition and then call it out.

  • So watch how carefully Jordan listens to Cathy's questions

  • so that he can catch what she's not saying.

  • "Why should women put up with it?" I'm not saying they should put up with it. I'm saying that the claim

  • Here's another example of assuming-the-sale from later in that conversation.

  • See if you can spot the hidden presupposition and ask yourself what you might say to respond to it.

  • ...which women do a lot of.

  • But why shouldn't women have the right to choose not to have children?

  • So what's the hidden presupposition

  • that Jordan thinks women must have children. And of course, he defends a woman's right to make any decision about that.

  • ...the right to choose and demand it, correct?

  • They do. They can. Yeah, that's fine.

  • But you're saying that makes them unhappy.

  • Here's one more example. See if you can spot the hidden presupposition here.

  • [Cathy talks over Jordan] So you want to say to your followers now, "Quit the abuse. Quit the anger."

  • Did you catch it? The presupposition is that Jordan's followers are abusing people.

  • Now, he can't answer that question directly; he has to address that hidden point first and he does.

  • Well, we'd need some substantial examples of the abuse and the anger before I could detail that question.

  • There's a lot of it out there.

  • When I cut the clips like this, it makes it very easy to see these hidden presuppositions but in real time, this can be difficult.

  • One simple thing that you can do to make it easier on yourself is to purposely

  • assume a relaxed posture as Jordan does throughout this entire conversation.

  • Now, this posture actually helps you to think less frantically because your body

  • is signalling to your brain that everything is okay; you're in control.

  • You'll also want to give yourself some time to pause after each question

  • which Jordan definitely does. In addition,

  • you're going to want to study up on frames and frame games because

  • there's a clearly a whole level of conversation that is going on behind the words.

  • Now, I've talked about this in other videos

  • specifically the one on Tyrion Lanister from Game of Thrones

  • and I'll leave a link to that in the description if you want to check it out.

  • Moving along though, the last clip contains a small example of the third conversational bully tactic

  • in this video which I'm naming the "smash technique." Take a look.

  • [Cathy talks over Jordan] So you want to say to your followers now, "Quit the abuse. Quit the anger."

  • It's subtle here but Cathy smashes together two very different termsabuse and anger.

  • Now, by ending on anger, it would be easier for Jordan to just forget it and answer the question.

  • But that would tacitly accept that his followers were abusing people.

  • That's why the smash technique is so frustrating; people are embedding hidden statements that you actually disagree with and

  • then moving through them before you have the time to voice that disagreement.

  • You may also have seen people barrage you with questions

  • just to overwhelm you into having to accept their points like this

  • ...otherwise, why would that only be seven women running FTSE 100 companies in the UK?

  • Why would there still be a pay gap... [Jordan talks over Cathy]

  • Why are women at the BBC saying that they're getting paid illegally less than men

  • It can be easy to get overwhelmed and to lose focus as you try to answer

  • all of these questions but with the smash technique in general, the best policy is

  • to slow down the tempo of conversation

  • and tackle one question or one point at a time.

  • Let's just go to the first question; those both are complicated questions.

  • So hopefully, now you're more aware of the so-you're-saying trap

  • when people "assume the sale" and of course, the smash technique.

  • This moves us to the second section of this video which is

  • how to persuade someone in these kinds of situations.

  • And I will say, it seems to me that it doesn't look like Jordan is necessarily

  • trying to change Cathy's mind but simply to debate in front of an audience.

  • There are still some valuable tips to be gleamed from this video and a few things that I'd add

  • First, do not straw man the other person's ideas even if they're doing it to you.

  • And to be clear, I don't know if I mentioned this,

  • straw manning is when you create a caricature of their ideas and then attack those rather than what they truly believe.

  • Instead, show the other person that you are truly engaging in their real points,

  • attempt to understand them, and sometimes this mean that you have to ask them to repeat themselves so that you can.

  • Seven? Seven women... repeat that one

  • Seven women running the top FTSE 100 companies in the UK.

  • Well, the first question might be.

  • After you've made an honest attempt to understand them, you need to make sure

  • that they can understand you which is necessary for persuasion.

  • And to do that, you often have to use the visual imagery.

  • For instance, here's a very abstract point without any images that Jordan makes.

  • ...that it's inevitable that there will be continuity in the way that animals and human beings organize their structures.

  • It's absolutely inevitable. And there is one-third of a billion years of evolutionary history behind that.

  • Now, maybe you can understand that but it kind of lacks any emotional oomph.

  • But notice how the addition of a concrete example makes that one-third of a billion years just feel different.

  • That's so long that a third of a billion years ago, there weren't even trees; it's a long time.

  • So adding concrete examples especially ones that people can easily imagine

  • is a smart persuasive move and lastly, when you're arguing, oftentimes

  • the best way to get someone to change their position is not by changing their mind

  • but by gently showing them that they are already agreeing with you.

  • I talked about this in the frame video but here's an example from this interview.

  • Why should your rights to freedom of speech trump a trans-person's right not to be offended?

  • Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.

  • I mean, look at the conversation we're having right now.

  • You know, like, you're certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth.

  • Why should you have the right to do that? It's been rather uncomfortable.

  • This is huge. Jordan is no longer arguing that her point is wrong;

  • he's arguing that she already agrees with himher behavior and her previous statements demonstrate

  • that she cares more about free speech than not offending people.

  • And then Jordan doesn't try to make this point wrong; he shows her how they're actually very much in alignment.

  • You're doing what you should do which is digging a bit to see what the hell's going on.

  • And I gave you what you should do but you're exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me.

  • And that's fine. I thinkmore power to you as far as I'm concerned.

  • And then of course Cathy feels stumped because she does actually agree with Jordan and she's proven it herself.

  • People have a strong desire to remain consistent

  • with things they've already said and done so oftentimes, this becomes

  • one of the few ways to persuade someone who's really dug in their heels.

  • You're basically showing them that they don't have to move

  • in order to agree with you; they already do right where they're dug in.

  • And then of course, Jordan hits her with the "gotcha."

  • ...uh, and... [sighs] I'm just trying to work that out but I mean... [sighs]

  • Jordan: Hah. Gotcha. Cathy: You have got me. You have got me.

  • Even though I laughed at that phrase at the time I was watching the interview,

  • I have to say that last bit "gotcha" does not improve Jordan's persuasive case.

  • It actually makes Cathy feel silly and wrong as opposed to

  • happy to discover that she and Jordan are really on the same team all along

  • and if I had to give one last point of constructive criticism,

  • it would be that Jordan answered all of Cathy's questions

  • rather than trying to proactively address her deeper unstated emotional concern.

  • And in my opinion, that emotional concern is that Jordan is her enemy

  • that if he believes something, it must be against her interests.

  • If Jordan could have found that and pointed to a more common ground

  • that they share which we all of course have, I don't think the interview

  • would have continued in such an argumentative fashion but

  • Jordan's role isn't necessarily to convince Cathy Newman of anything

  • it's to debate for an audience and to promote his book

  • which I think he did at an A+ level.

  • If you think that I missed something or you just want to discuss,

  • leave a comment below. I'm actually to be checking periodically but

  • I will be most active in the comments for that first hour after the video goes live

  • which is now 2 p.m. Eastern on Mondays so hit subscribe and hit the notification bell

  • to make sure that you're notified when I am here and chatting.

  • That way you can hop on if you want to discuss anything with me

  • or if you have a question that you'd like to ask.

  • I also think that this video makes a very strong companion for both the Tyrion video

  • that I mentioned about frames which are super interesting

  • and the previous Jordan Peterson video which will teach you how to get respect

  • without being a bully so click the screen if you want to check either of those out.

  • Hopefully, you guys enjoyed this video and I will see you in the next one.

We've all found ourselves in conversation and felt attacked

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如何避免在爭論中讓自己難堪--喬丹-彼得森。 (How To Avoid Embarrassing Yourself In An Argument - Jordan Peterson)

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    Rene Jiang 發佈於 2021 年 01 月 14 日
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