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  • Pat Mitchell: So I was thinking about female friendship a lot,

    譯者: Christian Grey 審譯者: Ming Gui Tan

  • and by the way, these two women,

    帕特·米歇爾(PM): 我最近一直在思索女性友誼

  • I'm very honored to say,

    對了,我很榮幸向大家介紹

  • have been my friends for a very long time, too.

    這兩位女士

  • Jane Fonda: Yes we have.

    是認識非常久的老朋友

  • PM: And one of the things that I read about female friendship

    珍‧芳達(JF):的確

  • is something that Cervantes said.

    PM:我曾讀過賽凡提斯講述 有關女性友誼的話

  • He said, "You can tell a lot about someone,"

    他說

  • in this case a woman,

    從一個人的朋友群

  • "by the company that she keeps."

    這裡我們是指女生

  • So let's start with --

    就可以看得出那人的修養

  • (Laughter)

    那我們來開始

  • JF: We're in big trouble.

    (笑聲)

  • Lily Tomlin: Hand me one of those waters,

    JF:我們有大麻煩了

  • I'm extremely dry.

    莉莉‧湯姆琳(LT):水遞過來,我很渴

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • JF: You're taking up our time.

    JF:妳在佔用我們的時間

  • We have a very limited --

    我們只有非常有限...

  • LT: Just being with her sucks the life out of me.

    LT:單單跟她在一起 就快榨光我的命了

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • JF: You ain't seen nothing yet.

    JF:妳還沒看到更厲害的呢!

  • Anyway -- sorry.

    好啦總之對不起

  • PM: So tell me, what do you look for in a friend?

    PM:告訴我,妳在朋友身上尋求什麼

  • LT: I look for someone who has a sense of fun,

    LT:我尋找有幽默感、勇於創新

  • who's audacious,

    樂於助人、有政治觀

  • who's forthcoming, who has politics,

    甚至有點熱愛地球

  • who has even a small scrap of passion for the planet,

    舉止得體、有正義感

  • someone who's decent, has a sense of justice

    並看重我的人

  • and who thinks I'm worthwhile.

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    (鼓掌)

  • (Applause)

    JF:今早我在想

  • JF: You know, I was thinking this morning,

    我根本無法想像 沒有我的女性朋友會怎樣

  • I don't even know what I would do without my women friends.

    我的意思是說

  • I mean it's, "I have my friends, therefore I am."

    我有朋友,故我在

  • LT: (Laughter)

    LT:(笑聲)

  • JF: No, it's true.

    JF:真的,沒騙妳

  • I exist because I have my women friends. They --

    我因我的女性朋友們而存在

  • You're one of them.

    妳也是其中之一

  • I don't know about you. But anyway --

    至於妳這朋友,我就不知道了,反正...

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • You know, they make me stronger, they make me smarter,

    她們使我更堅強、更聰明、更勇敢

  • they make me braver.

    當我需要指正時 她們會來拍拍我肩膀

  • They tap me on the shoulder when I might be in need of course-correcting.

    而且大多都比我年輕很多

  • And most of them are a good deal younger than me, too.

    我是說,其實這滿不賴的 LT:真是謝囉

  • You know? I mean, it's nice -- LT: Thank you.

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    JF:我是認真的 我把妳歸在那類是因為

  • JF: No, I do, I include you in that, because listen, you know --

    在邁向人生終點的旅途

  • it's nice to have somebody still around to play with and learn from

    仍有人可以陪妳玩,讓妳學習是很棒的

  • when you're getting toward the end.

    我越來越靠近死亡 我會比妳早抵達的

  • I'm approaching -- I'll be there sooner than you.

    LT:不,我很高興有妳陪我一起老去

  • LT: No, I'm glad to have you parallel aging alongside me.

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    JF:我在幫妳帶路呢

  • JF: I'm showing you the way.

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    LT:妳一直以來都是

  • LT: Well, you are and you have.

    PM:隨著我們年齡增長

  • PM: Well, as we grow older,

    我們走過不同人生旅途

  • and as we go through different kinds of life's journeys,

    妳們是如何維持友誼的

  • what do you do to keep your friendships vital and alive?

    LT:妳必須用很多...

  • LT: Well you have to use a lot of --

    JF:對了。她不常邀我去她家

  • JF: She doesn't invite me over much, I'll tell you that.

    LT:我需要用很多社群媒體

  • LT: I have to use a lot of social media --

    妳給我閉嘴,然後...

  • You be quiet now. And so --

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    LT:我看過每一封電郵、簡訊

  • LT: And I look through my emails, I look through my texts

    來找到朋友以便可以盡快回覆他們

  • to find my friends,

    因為我知道他們需要我的忠告

  • so I can answer them as quickly as possible,

    (笑聲)

  • because I know they need my counsel.

    他們需要我的支持

  • (Laughter)

    因為我的朋友大多都是 作家、社運領導人或演員

  • They need my support,

    而妳三者兼具

  • because most of my friends are writers, or activists, or actors,

    外加一長串描述性字句

  • and you're all three ...

    我希望我可以盡快與妳聯繫上

  • and a long string of other descriptive phrases,

    我想讓妳知道我與妳同在

  • and I want to get to you as soon as possible,

    JF:妳玩表情符號嗎

  • I want you to know that I'm there for you.

    LT:呃 JF:沒有嗎

  • JF: Do you do emojis?

    LT:這有點尷尬 JF:我超愛表情符號的

  • LT: Oh ... JF: No?

    LT:不,我都會拼出我的

  • LT: That's embarrassing. JF: I'm really into emojis.

    我拼出我的快樂、恭喜與悲傷

  • LT: No, I spell out my --

    JF:妳把它們全都拼出來

  • I spell out my words of happiness and congratulations,

    LT:我拼出每一個字母

  • and sadness.

    (笑聲)

  • JF: You spell it right out --

    JF:真是有夠龜毛

  • LT: I spell it, every letter.

    當我越來越老時

  • (Laughter)

    我越來越理解友誼的重要性

  • JF: Such a purist.

    也因此我花了很多精力

  • You know, as I've gotten older,

    找朋友玩,安排派對 不讓太多時間白白流逝

  • I've understood more the importance of friendships,

    我讀很多書

  • and so, I really make an effort

    因此如同莉莉所知

  • to reach out and make play dates -- not let too much time go by.

    我會把喜歡的書寄給我朋友

  • I read a lot

    LT:當我們知道今天要來這裡時

  • so, as Lily knows all too well,

    妳寄給我一大堆有關 女人跟女性友誼的書

  • my books that I like, I send to my friends.

    我很訝異看到最近

  • LT: When we knew we would be here today

    竟有出版那麼多的書跟研究

  • you sent me a lot of books about women, female friendships,

    JF:妳有很感激嗎 LT:有喔

  • and I was so surprised to see how many books,

    (笑聲)

  • how much research has been done recently --

    PM:那麼

  • JF: And were you grateful? LT: I was grateful.

    LT:等等,這很重要因為這是另一個

  • (Laughter)

    有關女人是如何被忽略 擱在一邊、邊緣化的例子

  • PM: And --

    很少有關我們的研究

  • LT: Wait, no, it's really important because this is another example

    儘管我們多次自願

  • of how women are overlooked, put aside, marginalized.

    JF:沒錯

  • There's been very little research done on us,

    (笑聲)

  • even though we volunteered lots of times.

    LT:這個滿有趣的 你們都會對這感興趣的

  • JF: That's for sure.

    哈佛醫學院的研究指出

  • (Laughter)

    維持親密女性友誼的女人

  • LT: This is really exciting, and you all will be interested in this.

    身體比較不容易衰退

  • The Harvard Medical School study has shown

    隨著年紀身體的衰退

  • that women who have close female friendships

    她們也較容易過更有活力精彩

  • are less likely to develop impairments --

    JF:還有更長

  • physical impairments as they age,

    LT:快樂的人生

  • and they are likely to be seen to be living much more vital, exciting --

    JF:我們平均比男生多活五年

  • JF: And longer --

    LT:我想我甘願短命一點換取快樂晚年

  • LT: Joyful lives.

    (笑聲)

  • JF: We live five years longer than men.

    LT:但最重要的是他們發現

  • LT: I think I'd trade the years for joy.

    這些結果十分振奮人心而確切

  • (Laughter)

    研究指出

  • LT: But the most important part is they found --

    沒有女性摯友對身體健康有害

  • the results were so exciting and so conclusive --

    與抽菸或過重有同等效果

  • the researchers found

    JF:當然還有其他結論

  • that not having close female friends is detrimental to your health,

    LT:反正我把我的部分講完了

  • as much as smoking or being overweight.

    (笑聲)

  • JF: And there's something else, too --

    JF:好,那現在聽我的部分

  • LT: I've said my part, so ...

    因為還有一件事情

  • (Laughter)

    這幾十年當他們嘗試理解壓力時

  • JF: OK, well, listen to my part, because there's an additional thing.

    他們只研究男生

  • Because they only -- for years, decades --

    直到最近他們才研究 女生面對壓力時的狀況

  • they only researched men when they were trying to understand stress,

    結論是當我們有壓力時

  • only very recently have they researched what happens to women when we're stressed,

    我們身體會分泌大量催產素

  • and it turns out that when we're stressed -- women,

    一個讓妳感覺良好 平靜、舒壓的賀爾蒙

  • our bodies get flooded by oxytocin.

    當我們跟女性朋友在一起時 它的濃度也會上升

  • Which is a feel-good, calming, stress-reducing hormone.

    而我確信它是其中一個 讓我們活得比較久的理由

  • Which is also increased when we're with our women friends.

    而我由衷對男生感到抱歉 因為他們沒有

  • And I do think that's one reason why we live longer.

    男生體內的睪固酮 會降低催產素的效果

  • And I feel so bad for men because they don't have that.

    LT:當妳跟我還有桃莉 一起拍攝喜劇《朝九晚五》時

  • Testosterone in men diminishes the effects of oxytocin.

    JF:噢

  • LT: Well, when you and I and Dolly made "9 to 5" ...

    LT:我們一直笑個不停

  • JF: Oh --

    我們發現我們有許多共同點 但我們也是如此不同

  • LT: We laughed, we did, we laughed so much,

    她就像好萊塢貴族

  • we found we had so much in common and we're so different.

    我就像來自底特律的頑強孩子

  • Here she is, like Hollywood royalty,

    (桃莉)是來自田納西 貧窮小鎮的南方小孩

  • I'm like a tough kid from Detroit,

    我們發現身為女人 我們在一起是多麼和諧

  • [Dolly's] a Southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee,

    而我們大笑的程度一定有 至少幫自己延長十年的壽命

  • and we found we were so in sync as women,

    JF:我們倒是很常翹腳

  • and we must have --

    (笑聲)

  • we laughed -- we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespans.

    如果妳知道我在說什麼

  • JF: I think -- we sure crossed our legs a lot.

    LT:我想我們都知道妳在說什麼

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • If you know what I mean.

    PM:妳們正在幫我們延長幾十年壽命

  • LT: I think we all know what you mean.

    因此在珍送我們 眾多有關女性友誼的書中

  • (Laughter)

    有一本作者是我們十分景仰的 Sister Joan Chittister

  • PM: You're adding decades to our lives right now.

    她說過有關女性友誼的話

  • So among the books that Jane sent us both to read on female friendship

    女性朋友不單只是社交性的

  • was one by a woman we admire greatly, Sister Joan Chittister,

    她也是精神性的

  • who said about female friendship

    妳覺得妳的朋友是精神上的益友嗎

  • that women friends are not just a social act,

    他們有帶給妳人生精神上的影響嗎

  • they're a spiritual act.

    LT:精神上嘛,我確信是如此

  • Do you think of your friends as spiritual?

    特別是一個你認識很久

  • Do they add something spiritual to your lives?

    你花很多時間相處的人

  • LT: Spiritual -- I absolutely think that.

    我可以從他們身上看到精神上的元素

  • Because -- especially people you've known a long time,

    柔和、脆弱

  • people you've spent time with --

    實際上在這關係裡有一種愛的成分

  • I can see the spiritual essence inside them,

    我只是深深地看透朋友的心靈罷了

  • the tenderness, the vulnerability.

    PM:妳認同嗎,珍? LT:但我有超能力

  • There's actually kind of a love, an element of love in the relationship.

    JF:朋友各式各樣

  • I just see deeply into your soul.

    有生意上的朋友和派對朋友

  • PM: Do you think that, Jane --

    這類型的我有很多

  • LT: But I have special powers.

    (笑聲)

  • JF: Well, there's all kinds of friends.

    但是讓催產素分泌的友誼

  • There's business friends, and party friends,

    這種友誼是精神上的 因為讓人敞開心房,對吧?

  • I've got a lot of those.

    我們很深入了解彼此,然後

  • (Laughter)

    我發現與閨密在一起時,經常掉眼淚

  • But the oxytocin-producing friendships have ...

    不是因為我傷心 而是因為我被他們感動和啟發

  • They feel spiritual because it's a heart opening, right?

    LT:而且妳知道其中有個人就快要走了

  • You know, we go deep. And --

    (笑聲)

  • I find that I shed tears a lot with my intimate friends.

    PM:莉莉,我們兩個人都坐在這裡

  • Not because I'm sad but because I'm so touched and inspired by them.

    妳是說誰啊

  • LT: And you know one of you is going to go soon.

    (笑聲)

  • (Laughter)

    而且我覺得當女人談友誼時

  • PM: Well, two of us are sitting here, Lily, which one are you talking about?

    男人總是有點不解

  • (Laughter)

    在妳的認知裡

  • And I always think, when women talk about their friendships,

    到底男性友誼跟女性友誼有何差別

  • that men always look a little mystified.

    JF:這有很多差別啊

  • What are the differences, in your opinion,

    我想我們對男人需要很多同理心

  • between men friendships and women friendships?

    (笑聲)

  • JF: There's a lot of difference,

    因為他們沒有我們所擁有的

  • and I think we have to have a lot of empathy for men --

    我想這也是為什麼他們比較早死吧

  • (Laughter)

    (笑聲)

  • that they don't have what we have.

    我對男人深感同情

  • Which I think may be why they die sooner.

    因為女人,我沒有在開玩笑

  • (Laughter)

    我們女性友誼是不隱藏、深入

  • I have a lot of compassion for men,

    是坦承一切的

  • because women, no kidding, we --

    我們冒著自身的脆弱 而這是男人不會做的

  • women's relationships, our friendships are full disclosure, we go deep.

    像是,我多次問妳 妳覺得我怎樣

  • They're revelatory.

    我真的把一切搞砸了嗎

  • We risk vulnerability -- this is something men don't do.

    PM:妳做的很棒

  • I mean how many times have I asked you, "Am I doing OK?"

    (笑聲)

  • "Did I really screw up there?"

    JF:我想表達的是 我們會問女性朋友這種問題

  • PM: You're doing great.

    但男人不會

  • (Laughter)

    人們常把女性關係描述成面對面

  • JF: But I mean, we ask questions like that

    但把男性關係描述成肩並肩

  • of our women friends,

    LT:我是覺得多數時間男生不願意表露情感

  • and men don't.

    他們寧可把更深層的感覺隱藏起來

  • You know, people describe women's relationships as face-to-face,

    我想大致上那是傳統的認知吧

  • whereas men's friendships are more side-by-side.

    他們寧可躲進男人窩裡面 看場比賽打打高爾夫球

  • LT: I mean most of the time men don't want to reveal their emotions,

    或談談運動、打獵、汽車或做愛

  • they want to bury deeper feelings.

    我是說這是種比較男人的行為

  • I mean, that's the general, conventional thought.

    JF:妳說... LT:他們談論性吧

  • They would rather go off in their man cave and watch a game or hit golf balls,

    我是說他們可以做愛

  • or talk about sports, or hunting, or cars or have sex.

    如果他們把人帶進男人窩裡的話

  • I mean, it's just the kind of -- it's a more manly behavior.

    (笑聲)

  • JF: You meant -- LT: They talk about sex.

    JF:我發現有件事很有趣

  • I meant they might have sex

    再一次地,心理學家是最近才發現的

  • if they could get somebody in their man cave to --

    男生與女生出生時 是有相同的情感取向的

  • (Laughter)

    如果你看新生男孩、女孩的影片

  • JF: You know something, though, that I find very interesting --

    你會發現其實男孩跟女孩一樣

  • and again, psychologists didn't know this until relatively recently --

    會凝視媽媽的眼睛

  • is that men are born every bit as relational as women are.

    你知道的,他們需要情感上的的能量交換

  • If you look at films of newborn baby boys and girls,

    當媽媽望向其他地方時

  • you'll see the baby boys just like the girls,

    他們可以看到寶寶臉上的沮喪

  • gazing into their mother's eyes,

    男生甚至會哭

  • you know, needing that relational exchange of energy.

    他們需要情感

  • When the mother looks away, they could see the dismay on the child,

    所以問題是 為什麼長大後這個取向變了

  • even the boy would cry.

    答案是父權文化的關係

  • They need relationship.

    需要情感或感性的男孩與年輕男性

  • So the question is why, as they grow older, does that change?

    是很女孩子氣的

  • And the answer is patriarchal culture,

    真正的男人不需要 詢問方向或表示需求

  • which says to boys and young men

    當他們生病時不會去看醫生

  • that to be needing of relationship, to be emotional with someone is girly.

    他們不求救

  • That a real man doesn't ask directions or express a need,

    有一句引言我很喜歡

  • they don't go to doctors if they feel bad.

    男人畏懼成為「我們」 會使他的「我」消失

  • They don't ask for help.

    其實就是他的自我感

  • There's a quote that I really like,

    相反地,女人的自我感是圓融的

  • "Men fear that becoming 'we' will erase his 'I'."

    我們的「我們」 是我們保有的精神力量

  • You know, his sense of self.

    是讓我們強壯的

  • Whereas women's sense of self has always been kind of porous.

    不是說我們比男人好

  • But our "we" is our saving grace,

    我們僅僅是不需要 證明自己的陽剛罷了

  • it's what makes us strong.

    LT:還有

  • It's not that we're better than men,

    JF:那是一句來自 Gloria Steinem 的引言

  • we just don't have our masculinity to prove.

    所以我們可以表現我們的人性 LT:我知道 Gloris Steinem 是誰

  • LT: And, well --

    JF:我知道妳知道她是誰,但我覺得...

  • JF: That's a Gloria Steinem quote.

    (笑聲)

  • So we can express our humanity -- LT: I know who Gloria Steinem is.

    但我想這是句好引言對吧